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Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012 5:00 pm | Updated: 12:23 pm, Thu Apr 17, 2014.

If you want to know how screwed up this country is, consider the parable of the two singers.

When I was growing up in the early 1960s, caught between two worlds at war with each other, you either liked Elvis Presley or Pat Boone, but needless to say, not both.

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          Welcome to the discussion.

          220 comments:

          • Bronco posted at 11:15 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, I stated a fact and you read all sorts of insults into it, then proceeded to throw them at me. You twist things around to fit your worldview then ridicule anyone who disagrees. You are an unpleasant person. And rather vile. You should take up the cloth.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:47 am on Sun, May 6, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco posted at 9:33 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012

            Hey, don't blame it on me! You're the one who keeps getting it wrong, even though only a few minutes wisely spent on the Internet would eliminate your ignorance.

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:33 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, you are certainly one big azzhore

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:37 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: WOW! I Googled 'Conservative hypocrisy' and got over 12 million hits! BUT...'Liberal hypocrisy' got only 10 million.

            HTC: You only further demonstrate your lack of an analytical mind and the fact that you are dispossessed of any critical thinking skills by the fact that you think that means anything.

            All it really means is that there are more liberal idiots regurgitating the same tripe versus the large number of conservatives that are too busy working at real jobs to attempt to respond to their crap.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:25 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco posted at 4:17 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012

            You obviously know next to nothing about JFK. He wouldn't recognize his party today, which is really the party of LBJ (welfare) and not the party of JFK, although they still pretend to be. Today, JFK would be known as a conservative and he would be disavowed by many in the Democratic Party.

            Some JFK quotes which clearly demonstrate his conservative nature:

            "And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." (There goes the Dem's welfare state and its insidious vote-buying with other people's money)

            "In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility - I welcome it." (I can hear Obama's supporters' screams now: "Warmonger!")

            "Israel was not created in order to disappear - Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom." (Oh my! JFK supports Israel? Whatever is today's Democrat to do about that?)

            "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty." (This is definitely more eloquent than Bush's "You're either with us or against us", but the sentiment is the same.)

            "I'm an idealist with no illusions." (One of the big problems afflicting the left and Democrats today is the fact that they're mired in a 1960's way of thinking. If they had their way about it, policy would be made according to John Lennon's song "Imagine." The song, while catchy in its melody, words and spirit, is quite frankly delusional. JFK, on the other hand, was a Greatest Generation style patriot who shared no such delusions with today's Democratic Party.)

            "I don't think we can undo the past. In fact, the past is going to be with us for a good many years in uneducated men and women who lost their chance for a decent education. We have to do the best we can now. That is what we are trying to do. I don't think quotas are a good idea. I think it is a mistake to begin to assign quotas on the basis of religion or race -- color -- nationality. . . . On the other hand, I do think that we ought to make an effort to give a fair chance to everyone who is qualified -- not through a quota -- but just look over our employment rolls, look over our areas where we are hiring people and at least make sure we are giving everyone a fair chance. But not hard and fast quotas. . . . We are too mixed, this society of ours, to begin to divide ourselves on the basis of race or color." (Good bye affirmative action! Good bye Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and the other race-baiting carpetbaggers who've invaded the Democratic Party.)

            "The most direct and significant kind of federal action aiding economic growth is to cut the fetters which hold back private spending...Congress must reduce the burden on private income and the deterrents to private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system. ...[I pledge] an across-the-board, top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes. The evidence is clear that our present tax system ... exerts too heavy a drag on growth ... siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power, [and] reduces the financial incentives for personal effort, investment, and risk-taking." (JFK insisted on tax cuts not only for low-income workers but also "for those in the middle and upper brackets, who can thereby be encouraged to undertake additional efforts and ... invest more capital." He despised class-warriors who own the Democratic Party today.)

            "Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." (There goes the easy-way-out preferred by Democrats today.)

            "A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." (Somehow I don't think he would support the progressive effort to stamp out "conservative" media such as Fox News or Rush Limbaugh.)

            "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily lives." (OMG, JFK would have supported anyone who sought to keep the government in its tiny little box defined by the Constitution! No way could he be a Democrat today!)

            Yes, Bronco, there's absolutely no way that you understand JFK any better than you have shown that you understand almost every other topic we've discussed in this forum.

             
          • Bronco posted at 6:50 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: Yes, no one does hypocrisy better than the left.
            ----------------------
            WOW! I Googled 'Conservative hypocrisy' and got over 12 million hits!
            BUT...'Liberal hypocrisy' got only 10 million.

            Strom Thurmond: Hypocrisy: Blocking Civil Rights for His Own Child
            When South Carolina Gov. Strom Thurmond ran for president in 1948 on the Dixiecrat ticket, he vowed to bar blacks from white schools, restaurants, and even some occupations. But at the same time he was preaching segregation, he was secretly financing the business administration degree of Essie Mae Washington, a black coed at the all-black South Carolina State College. Why? Because it is widely believed that Ms. Washington is his daughter. By supporting a black woman he supposedly sired, Thurmond considered himself remaining loyal to a Southern Gentleman’s code that required white boys, who often learned about sex “on the colored side of town,” to take care of any children they fathered. To his very death, Thurmond never confirmed nor denied Ms. Washington as his daughter, even when the headline: “SEN. THURMOND IS UNPRINCIPLED — WITH COLORED OFFSPRING — WHILE PARADING AS A DEVOUT SEGREGATIONIST” ran in the Edgefield Advertiser, where Ms. Washington went to school.

            Richard Nixon: Hypocrisy: Obstruction of Justice
            In 1973, Richard Nixon went on television and told the world “I am not a crook” as part of a total denial of involvement with the June 17th burglaries of the Democratic National Committee offices located in the Watergate Hotel. But he and other high ranking administration officials were actually eyes-deep in it. As a youth, Nixon was rejected by the FBI academy and later in life had to “settle” for President of the United States. This always ate at him, and he loved the cloak-and-dagger aspects of covert operations. Despite warnings to maintain plausible deniability, Nixon kept himself fully apprised of the break-in. Then journalists Robert Woodward and Carl Bernstein exposed the scandal in August 1972. The public disliked the burglary but loathed the cover-up even more, and popular sentiment led to impeachment processes that ultimately drove Nixon to resign the presidency.

            George Bush Senior: Hypocrisy: No New Taxes
            At the 1988 Republican National Convention, candidate George H.W. Bush famously said “Read my lips: no new taxes!”. It was a strong, bold statement, and the soundbyte resonated within the Republican party, which then backed him all the way to a successful election as the 41st President of the United States. Once in office, Bush refused several new tax initiatives from a Democrat controlled Congress, but ultimately relented, and agreed to increase the amount of existing taxes in the 1990 budget agreement. Rush Limbaugh went apoplectic and the general public was only slightly less enraged. While technically the taxes weren’t “new”, they were still “more”, and that’s not what his electorate him to do.

            Rush Limbaugh: Hypocrisy: Illicit Drug Sourcing
            Rush Limbaugh is the host of “The Rush Limbaugh Show”, a nationally syndicated radio program devoted to conservative issues and news of the day. On his program, Limbaugh has espoused a deep respect of law enforcement and tough penalties for drug offenders (In 1995, he said drug users “ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up.”) Yet on October 10, 2003, Limbaugh announced that he was addicted to prescription painkillers and would immediately check himself into a rehabilitation program. Law enforcement sources had noted that Limbaugh’s name had come up during an investigation into a black market drug ring in Palm Beach County, Florida, specializing in the illegal sale of prescription drugs OxyContin and hydrocodone. Limbaugh said he first became addicted to prescription painkillers following unsuccessful spinal surgery, but has remained clean since his 2003 treatment. Limbaugh was not incarcerated because Palm Beach does not jail drug offenders unless they’ve failed opportunities to deal with their addiction and have turned to crime to maintain their habit. Thus, benefiting from the soft position on drug crime that he hates so.

            Bob Barr: Hypocrisy: Opposing Abortion While Paying For An Abortion
            Bob Barr, is a former member of the United States House of Representatives, representing Georgia’s 7th congressional district as a Republican from 1995 to 2003. He gained national attention as one of several leaders who successfully impeached President Bill Clinton. According to a sworn affidavit by Barr’s ex-wife Gail, the longtime abortion opponent paid for her abortion in 1983. Barr never publicly disputed the affidavit, and the author of the Defense of Marriage Act even invoked a legal privilege during his 1985 divorce so he could refuse any questions on whether he cheated on his second wife with his now-third wife. Barr has recently resurfaced as the Libertarian Party’s nominee for President of the United States (he lost).

            Mark Foley:Hypocrisy: Condemning Clinton’s Sex Scandal While Sexting Underage Boys
            Mark Foley was a Florida congressman who lamented that Bill Clinton’s runaway sexual addiction caused his scandal with Monica Lewinsky. And yet Foley had demons of his own. On September 29th, 2006 Foley resigned his congressional seat after reports surfaced that he was sending sexually explicit text messages and emails to teenage male congressional pages. Foley insisted he was not a pedophile and had never had sexual contact with any minor. Then he dipped into the media excuse bag and decided to used ALL of them at once: he blamed his emails on a drinking problem, checked himself into a rehab clinic, and said that he had been molested by a clergyman when he 13. To top it off, he decided that NOW was the time come out, and bravely had his lawyer inform the public that “Mark Foley wants you to know he is a gay man.” Many pages came forward after Foley’s announcement, but Florida officials closed the investigation citing “insufficient evidence” to file criminal charges.

             
          • Bronco posted at 4:17 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            It's a given that Liberals and Conservatives are polar opposites of the political spectrum?

            John F. Kennedy defined a liberal as "someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people . . . someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad . . . "

            Then a Conservative can be defined as someone who doesn't look ahead just behind, someone who welcomes new ideas with rigid reactions, someone who cares nothing about the welfare of the people . . . someone who supports the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad . . . "


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:43 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            JBSTONE posted at 3:13 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012

            Yes, no one does hypocrisy better than the left.

             
          • SorrySOB posted at 3:41 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            SorrySOB Posts: 484

            Are you guys talking about Pat Boone or Bob Barker? I get those two mixed up. They are both old gray haired, over the hill idiots who used up their 15 minutes of fame decades ago, so who really cares what either of them have to say? If it was a liberal speaker and a conservative college turned him or her down, Frank would be singing a totally different tune. But of course, he likes preaching to the choir because they are the only ones who will listen.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:37 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: Timothy Egan on American politics and life, as seen from the West.

            HTC: Honesty would dictate that title be changed to read "...as seen from the left."

            Timothy Egan refers to Mr. Mann and Mr. Ornstein as "sensible, nonpartisan scholars" when that is anything but the case. Mann works at the VERY progressive Brookings Institute and Ornstein is a long time friend of Al Franken and several other notable socialists and has frequently collaborated on projects with the same Brookings Institute. Laughably, Mr. Ornstein regards himself as a "centrist" (reminds me of someone on this site.)

            Mr. Egan is referring to an OpEd that these two individuals recently co-wrote for the Washington Post titled " Let’s just say it: The Republicans are the problem." They begin the article by claiming to be writing about the logic error known as "false equivalence", which they refer to as the "traditional refuge" of cowed media:

            "“Both sides do it” or “There is plenty of blame to go around” are the traditional refuges for an American news media intent on proving its lack of bias, while political scientists prefer generality and neutrality when discussing partisan polarization. Many self-styled bipartisan groups, in their search for common ground, propose solutions that move both sides to the center, a strategy that is simply untenable when one side is so far out of reach."

            They later continue:

            "We understand the values of mainstream journalists, including the effort to report both sides of a story. But a balanced treatment of an unbalanced phenomenon distorts reality."

            Then they not only shoot themselves in the foot, but blow their feet clean off:

            "Democrats are hardly blameless, and they have their own extreme wing and their own predilection for hardball politics."

            So, this week's False Equivalence Award goes to: Mr. Mann and Mr. Ornstein, both political scientists who supposedly "prefer generality and neutrality when discussing partisan polarization!"

            Take a bow, guys....

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 3:13 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Occupy the Southern Poverty Law Center

            By Charles C. W. Cooke
            May 4, 2012 12:39 P.M.

            In light of the May Day arrests of the Cuyahoga 5, the Occupy Wall Street–affiliated group of men who planned to blow up a bridge in Cleveland, Ohio, I called the Southern Poverty Law Center to find out of they had any plans to start tracking the Occupy movement. The first person I spoke to was so shocked by the question that she paused for a good 15 seconds before promising to put me in touch with a representative. This she eventually did, however, and after a game of cat-and-mouse — the person she’d found for me was busy “hosting an international conference on right-wing extremism,” natch — we managed to touch base and I to pose the question: “Do you have any plans to start tracking Occupy Wall Street after a hate group tried to blow up a bridge?”

            “No, I don’t think so,” he said. “We blogged it right away when it happened.” I asked him why he thought this deserved only a blog post, and he explained that the SPLC only deals with “hatred of people based on class characteristics,” which a little more pushing revealed meant “immutable characteristics such as a person’s eye or skin color.” “So,” I asked, “Occupy doesn’t count because it doesn’t hate people based on their innate characteristics?” He assented, but didn’t explain adequately why SPLC is vocal on “Islamophobia,” for example — whatever Islam is, it is not an “immutable” characteristic — and why it concerns itself with matters of traditionalist Catholic theology.

            “We did go after the eco-terrorists,” he told me. “But that was because they’d adopted the same tactics as the abortion activists: vilification, the use of ‘Wanted’ posters, highlighting the names and whereabouts of people’s children and spouses.” And then he went on a long speech about “anti-abortion extremists” that had very little to do with what I was asking, but no doubt made him feel good. I met this with silence, so he said that, really, the SPLC only tracks those who commit violence or who seek to destroy whole systems in the name of an ideology.

            “Isn’t that exactly what happened in Cleveland?” I asked. “These five men, all linked with Occupy Wall Street, attempted to blow up a bridge as an overture to the wholesale destruction of Cleveland, Ohio, and in the name of anarchism. They also looked to blow up the Republican convention.”

            “They were anarchists,” he repeated.

            “Yes?”

            He paused. “We’re not really set up to cover the extreme Left.”

            This was at least honest. He must have heard me thinking, because he continued, “Some people ask why we don’t cover prison gangs or the Crips and the Bloods, because they are violent, too. But they aren’t political, you see.”

            “But Occupy is political,” I suggested.

            Back to the honesty: “Well, take it if you will, or won’t.”

            “Fair enough.”

            He felt the need to keep explaining, so I let him. We only ever cover left-wing groups when they have a right-wing component, he told me. For example, “when anarchist groups are infiltrated by those on the right; Neo-Nazis, that sort of thing.”

            I asked whether this was a little like the way the French do masculine and feminine plurals; that if there are a thousand women and one man, it becomes masculine. In other words, that the SPLC covers a group if there is even a minute “right-wing” component. “Yes, I suppose so,” he said.

            I left it there, but I couldn’t help feeling that there was a little bit of a syllogism going on; that being that “Left” equals “good,” and “Right” equals “bad,” and therefore anything “Left” couldn’t be “bad” unless it were infiltrated by the “Right.” In my time covering Occupy Wall Street I have seen anti-Semitism, black nationalism, class hatred, and threats of violence; there have been rapes, a few murders, and now some domestic terrorism. One would have thought that these things would be sufficient warrant for a group like the Southern Poverty Law Center to stand up and take serious note, but, as I learned yesterday, there’s one problem: They’re just “not set up to cover the extreme Left.”

            http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/299011/occupy-wall-street-and-southern-poverty-law-center-charles-c-w-cooke#

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:11 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rob123 posted at 8:00 am on Sat, May 5, 2012

            Yeah, yeah - you wussies can dish it out but you sure can't take it.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:07 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            jennydoe: What's the big deal?: It's no secret that Wal-Mart has been the ire of organized labor for years. The company's anti-union stamce, and its salary and benefits programs for employees pales in comparison to those offered at rivals like Costco.

            HTC: Am I supposed to be impressed by this typical progressive apples-to-oranges comparison? Costco and Walmart are NOT competitors. Costco caters to a higher-end clientele, carries more expensive and exotic products and brings in five times more revenue per employee than does Walmart. Maybe Rob123 can temporarily set aside his own progressive flights of fancy and take a minute to explain to you why that's a VERY significant difference.

            jennydoe: But that alone isn't why Wal-Mart landed on this list. A recent New York Times story shows that the company has been using bribes to rapidly expand its footprint in Mexico. The country is now home to roughly 20% of Wal-Mart's stores[BS3]. If that wasn't bad enough, it seems as though Wal-Mart officials at the highest level knew about this scheme years ago, but essentially covered it up and swept it under the rug. That's the exact opposite of corporate responsibility.

            HTC: I guess you've never done business in Mexico; otherwise, you'd know that bribery is a way of life in that and most other third-world countries. If you don't pay-to-play, someone else will and you'll be shut out.

            Besides, someone who pays a bribe to get the permits required to build a store - permits that should be granted without requiring such payments to corrupt government officials - is guilty of a far less serious moral violation than Democrats who buy votes with other people's money.

            So get off your BS moral high horse...

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 1:10 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2685

            The curious note about "Liberals" is that they are not "liberal". I've never seen more rigid and inflexible people. If one does not agree with them 100%, then they are enemies? Kind of an example is the name of the obama-care bill "affordable health care act". It is not affordable and certainly does not improve heatlh care. This is a common ploy of the old USSR and GDR, and now China and N.Korea. Rather like "The People's Democratic Republic". Was none of that. Not of the people, not democratic, not a republic etc. Another rather startling thing about liberals and "progressives" is their paranoia! It certainly appears that as a minimum they should switch to decaf.

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:06 pm on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Timothy Egan on American politics and life, as seen from the West.

            If you worked at a place where barely one in 10 people approved of what you did, if you took a six-figure salary for a job that let you go on “recess” for about 29 weeks of the year, and if you were addressed as “honorable” for said employment, you might suffer an occasional bout of shame.
            Or you could fight back. How else to explain a proposal in the 112th Congress — that is, the one known as worst, ever — to ban the word “lunatic” from federal law.
            Sure, the honorable gentlemen behind the measure say they want to reduce the stigma of mental illness. But they may also be trying to shield themselves from a public that has their number.
            The House run by John Boehner is stuffed with zealots and intellectual dead-enders who think compromise is a synonym for treason. Americans agree on very little, but there seems to be shore-to-shore consensus on a view of this Congress: We hate you.
            Not, of course, individually, as about 85 percent of the current members can expect to glide to reelection without ever having to explain why they will not govern. But, as an institution, this Congress is very, very sick.
            So it is encouraging to see two longtime Washington wise men — Thomas E. Mann and Norman J. Ornstein, sensible, nonpartisan scholars and impeccably credentialed authors of good advice that no one ever follows — come out with a full-blown polemic against the Republicans who have steered Congress off a cliff.
            “In our past writings, we have criticized both parties when we believed it was warranted,” Mann and Ornstein write in “It’s Even Worse Than It Looks,” their new book on our dyspeptic politics. “Today, however, we have no choice but to acknowledge that the core of the problem lies with the Republican Party.”
            They describe the G.O.P. as “an insurgent outlier,” and cite studies that Republicans are now more conservative they have been since, well, the era when women could not vote, blacks could not share the same public space as whites and the income tax was a distant dream of a forward-thinking Republican reformer, Theodore Roosevelt.
            It’s not just the “appalling spectacle of hostage taking,” as Mann and Ornstein described last year’s budget crises, when Republicans threatened government shutdown and public default in the name of fiscal responsibility. If the House majority were really fiscally responsible they would at least close tax loopholes. But they won’t, because 238 of the 242 House Republicans have taken a pledge to Grover Norquist to never raise revenues, shirking their duty to put country first.
            Nor is it the pathos of Republicans who let the most dangerous demagogues among them — highlighted by freshman Representative Allen West, whose latest absurd claim is that up to 81 Democrats in Congress are members of the Communist Party — lie without censure.
            But these people with an R on their jerseys are harming the country, acting like “an apocalyptic cult” as a veteran Republican staffer, Mike Lofgren, cited by Mann and Ornstein, described his party last year.
            What we got with the 2010 election was a group that creates its own facts. They deny the elemental fiscal math that the United States will never balance its books without raising somebody’s taxes. And they deny elemental science, going so far as to vote as a group that global warming caused by man essentially does not exist.
            Perhaps it’s better, then, that the 112th has passed fewer laws than any Congress in at least 40 years. What do they do with their time? Take a look at Eric Cantor’s 2012 House calendar. Half of April, half of May, and nearly every day from August all the way to Election Day, members of Congress are off on something called “constituent work week,” also known as “recess,” or junketeering, fund-raising, vacationing or campaigning.
            On the rare days when Congress is in session, somebody in the People’s House will rise to say they are following the will of the people. But on the big issues, this is preposterous. A big majority of Americans want taxes raised on millionaires who pay a lower rate than their secretaries. A CNN poll in April found that nearly three-quarters of the public favored the so-called Buffett rule.
            If Congress were representative of the public, you’d see some of that will of the people in the vote. Yet all but five of 234 Republicans present voted against this basic act of fairness. And in the Senate, it couldn’t even get past the filibuster threshold to allow for some debate, let alone a vote.
            Just now, Republicans say they want to prevent student loan rates from doubling, which will happen soon if the Do Nothings do nothing. They passed a bill in the House, but it raids health care to pay for it, ensuring a veto. This balancing would be fine if Republicans were consistent. They aren’t. The Bush tax cuts will end up costing $2 trillion over a decade, but this huge debt is treated as a trifle by the reality-denying majority in Congress.
            I would add one other big consideration to all of the above: these people in Congress, and this mess, are the voters’ fault. We put Democrats in control in 2008, and they’d no sooner started to govern when we put Republicans in charge. We get the Congress we deserve, and when Republicans gained 63 seats in the House in the 2010 elections, voters took a chance with a sustained temper tantrum.
            At least in 2010, the insurgents were an unknown commodity, produced by the faux populism of talk radio and the Tea Party. If this majority is voted back in, we’ll have nobody to blame but ourselves for a democracy that, at this moment, no longer has the will to self-govern.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 8:47 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            A mind bender...........

            BYU Hawaii’s First Non-Mormon Student President Credits Mormons for Making Him a Better Muslim


            Mustapha El Akkari Credits Brigham Young University Hawaii for Strengthening His Islamic Faith

            Mustapha El Akkari recently became the first non-Mormon student body president at Brigham Young University-Hawaii. Interestingly, El Akkari is a Muslim who credits the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints-affiliated school with making him a better Islamic adherent.

            In an interview with The Salt Lake Tribune the business management student, who is at the school on a basketball scholarship, highlighted the ways in which LDS has assisted his faith.

            El Akkari, who was born in Tripoli, Lebanon, will be a senior next fall. During the interview, he shared his experience living with a Christian family in America. Additionally, he discussed the culture shock he encountered upon attending BYU, specifically when it comes to the honor code and other strict regulations:

            “It was a big shock for me. I read articles about it, but I thought it would be like a normal college. It was none of that. It was really straight with an honor code and all — no tea or coffee meant no tea or coffee. I had lived through a half-Jewish, half-Christian family but not Mormons. But I adjusted right away. I fit in. I’m a little unique — the only Arabic speaker or Lebanese on campus — but I love Hawaiians. I never knew any Polynesians before. I called my parents and told them there were islands in the Pacific where people live. They never knew it. I decided I was going to learn from the experience and bring my culture to them.”

            When asked to share how his Islamic faith has been impacted by attending a Mormon university, El Akkari provided some intriguing assessments. In sum, BYU has positively impacted and reinforced his faith.

            “Before I came to this school, I was not a practicing Muslim. I had never been to a Muslim school,” he explained. “When I came here, I saw all these religious people who were successful and I thought, ‘I want to be like them. I want to base my life on principles, you can’t fail this way.’”

            The student reiterated his belief that Islam is “right” and said that the experience of attending the school caused him to read Muslim books and educate himself.

            Mustapha El Akkari Credits Brigham Young University Hawaii for Strengthening His Islamic Faith

            “Now I read the Quran, do my five daily prayers and fast during the month of Ramadan. The Mormons kind of woke me up,” El Akkari explained. “I haven’t felt any discrimination from them, but their attempts to convert me always will be there. They believe their religion is right. I don’t really blame them.”

            If he goes back to Lebanon after graduation, he said that he will play basketball, as it is easy and is something that he loves. During the interview, he also made mention of his brother, Mohammad El-Akkari, who The Blaze recently covered for scoring a record-breaking 113 points in a single basketball game.

            MORE: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/jazz/53940127-80/hawaii-byu-president-student.html.csp

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:00 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            Look at all the posts from HTC this morning! Did your chauffeur pick up some very high caffeine coffee beans for your maid, causing you to flame even more than normal? It's always fun for us little people to awake to a rich guys slash and burn rant, as if we are the cause of his angst.

            Guess I will go for a long walk with the dogs, and breathe. Maybe think about some Tax Codes?
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqhdRs4jyA

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:51 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/04/27/5-companies-americans-can-be-proud-of-edited/#photo-5

            Costco (COST) Competitor Walmart (WMT) has been in the headlines a lot lately. Whether it's for bribing officials in Mexico or not allowing employees to form unions, there seems to be a dark cloud hanging over the company. So why doesn't Costco get any bad press when the majority of its employees don't have union representation either?

            It's actually quite simple: The company believes in its employees, and it backs that up with its actions. Employees are paid an average of $17 per hour and have generous health-care and retirement benefits -- two things Walmart employees certainly can't claim.

            And customers are huge beneficiaries as well. Costco has razor-thin margins -- which means nearly every penny of savings Costco can squeeze out using its size and efficiency is passed on to customers. The company's profits, in fact, are almost entirely accounted for in membership dues -- not sales. The approach has worked out well for shareholders, too; including dividends, Costco shares have returned 131% over the past decade, doubling what the larger market has offered up and quintupling Walmart returns.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:45 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/04/27/5-u-s-businesses-that-ought-to-be-ashamed-of-themselves-hold/

            Wal-Mart (WMT)
            Those being exploited: employees, general public

            What's the big deal?: It's no secret that Wal-Mart has been the ire of organized labor for years. The company's anti-union stamce, and its salary and benefits programs for employees pales in comparison to those offered at rivals like Costco. In addition, the company has been blamed for the commodification of small-town America. Mom-and-pop stores, once the backbone of rural life, have been unable to compete with the price and selection Wal-Mart has to offer.

            But that alone isn't why Wal-Mart landed on this list. A recent New York Times story shows that the company has been using bribes to rapidly expand its footprint in Mexico. The country is now home to roughly 20% of Wal-Mart's stores[BS3]. If that wasn't bad enough, it seems as though Wal-Mart officials at the highest level knew about this scheme years ago, but essentially covered it up and swept it under the rug. That's the exact opposite of corporate responsibility.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:33 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco posted at 3:49 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012

            HTC: I never said there wasn't a "war on women". What I said was that there wasn't one being waged by Republicans; rather, the real "war against women" is being waged by Democrats whose economic, fiscal and energy policies have made it much more difficult for them to find work or to start a business; much more expensive to feed their families, buy them clothing, put fuel in their cars and heat/cool their homes; made it almost impossible to get their children a decent K-12 education and priced college beyond the reach for their sons and daughters.

            It is also the Democrats who want to eliminate their favorite places to buy things for their families; namely, the big boxes who help them stretch their budgets and give their parents a way to supplement their meager Social Security checks.

            And if you really believe the BS about women being paid less, then all the above is even worse for them.

            You really should read the excellent academic research (by a woman, no less) that is posted here:

            http://tinyurl.com/88au4ph

            It is a PDF that you can download and read at your own pace. I challenge you to do so and then we can discuss this "women are underpaid" issue some more, only this time we'll both be informed.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:18 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: Humuhumunukunukuapua'a Our State fish.

            HTC: Ah, yes, the "fish which grunts like a pig" (What the Hawaiian name actually means). How appropriate for a state full of pigs feeding at the public trough.

            Bronco: Yours is the cutthroat trout. How quaint.

            HTC: Actually, it's the black-spotted cuttthroat trout, a hardy species adapted to a tough life in a harsh climate. It has teeth and feeds on insects, so you'd better be careful around one.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:08 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Independentthinkermt: We agree on this, it is delicious, for sure. Eat there all the time. Very good food.

            HTC: The young couple who own it are very nice, very hard-working people who strive to provide an excellent dining experience at a reasonable price.

            'Supporting' them is VERY easy to do since dining there is so enjoyable.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:06 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: Right. They got their statistics from reliable sources. They are listed on pgs 27/28 I believe.

            HTC: Their data is incomplete but, more importantly, they connect the dots in a fraudulent manner in order to convey a fraudulent conclusion.

            As Mark Twain famously said, "There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics"

            It takes a lot of work to wade through anyone's research these days in an effort to understand what data they've gathered, whether it's reliable and complete, and whether they've analyzed it properly such that the data actually supports their conclusions.

            The study that you cited fails the authenticity test on a variety of statistical and logical grounds, but you are apparently unwilling or unable to see that.

            So cling to your BS as it seems you must but do understand that you only look foolish for doing so; at least, with those of us with good analytical skills.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:01 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            bill: Very shallow, little man.
            ----------
            I cannot believe you just called HTC that.


            bill - Ya know, if republicans tried to do some of the s... the democrats do, they wouldn't defend the republicans for doing so, proving they are purely partisan. This I know.
            ---------
            What in the 4377 are you talking about?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:59 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: YIKES! We should fear people like you! I suppose funding CEOs so they can buy another vacation home is your business-as-usual, screw-over the little guy, capitalism at its best, mantra. I prefer to help local business owners send their daughters to college.

            HTC: My, you are the melodramatic little diva, aren't you.

            When you say you'd "prefer to help local business owners send their daughters to college", you're saying that is preferable to paying his/her employees a better wage and providing them with health insurance and other benefits which Walmart does. So you're for the same kind of "screw over the little guy capitalism" that you rail against, simply preferring that the owner's daughter get a paid college education versus the big box CEO getting a vacation home.

            Same principle and simply hypocritical; but, SO typical of your 'thinking'.

            Bronco: http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/smart-growth-working-families/harms-big-box-retail

            HTC: There are so many BS left-wing 'research' groups popping up left and right that it's simply impossible to keep up with them all.

            The fact remains that Walmart does pay more than most mom-and-pop retailers and does offer benefits including health insurance to most of them, unlike Rob123 and probably you as well (but I'm sure that won't stop Rob from offering his populist hypocritical 2-cents worth.) This has been verified by several impartial university studies and numerous think tanks.

            Additionally, there are other studies which have found that the big boxes, Walmart in particular, have almost single-handedly saved rural America from economic extinction. Their lower prices and better-paying jobs have given poorer rural workers and consumers a new lease on life, making it no longer necessary for many of them to leave the setting they love for one of our urban centers. That's a major 'civic' benefit that your BS 'research' which you cited fails to mention. (It occurs to me that we've had this discussion before, at which time I provided a lot of that research; but, you seem incapable or unwilling to assimilate it.)

            Walmart and other big boxes are very popular with consumers; hence, their success. The question that you, Rob and others should be asking yourself is why do they prefer them over the mom-and-pops? Why do people working for the mom-and-pops (MAP) always rush to apply for work at the big boxes when they open a new store?

            Consumers today like the convenience of the big box stores, with their better pricing, much broader selection and one-stop shopping. They like their liberal no-questions-asked return policies. In other words, the consumer has evolved and big boxes have evolved to meet that modern consumer's needs.

            So what you're effectively saying is that the consumer is 'evil' because they shop at Walmart instead of a MAP. You might as well try to push back the tide; or, you, Rob123 and your other liberal friends could try to evolve as well or go the way of the dinosaur.

            Another question you should ask yourself is why is it so hard for ANY small business to succeed these days. The answer to that one lands squarely at the feet of big government which over-taxes them, over-burdens them with regulations and dramatically increases the cost of insurance, energy, transportation and other business necessities.

            It takes the major financial and legal resources of a big box to survive in this government-controlled, ultra-small margin economy and even some of them fail to make it.

            It is the massive government which you and Rob support and defend which is the enemy of MAPs, not Walmart.

            So, if you want to know who the real enemy of small business is, just go look in a mirror.

             
          • bill39 posted at 6:52 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 1050

            Thanks again Frank, for the opportunity to post here. Good honest column.

            HTC: Yeah, that's what I thought - the truth is too much for you to handle. I'll bet you didn't even read any of the research I posted links to.

            "You can't handle the truth!" - Col. Jessup (Jack Nicholson, A Few Good Men)

            bill: Worth repeating.

             
          • bill39 posted at 6:31 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 1050

            HighTechCowboy posted at 3:16 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.
            You may now go back to blowing more BS out of you a$s......

            About the only thing he is good at.

            Ya know, if republicans tried to do some of the s... the democrats do, they wouldn't defend the republicans for doing so, proving they are purely partisan. This I know.

             
          • bill39 posted at 6:21 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 1050

            Bronco posted at 3:49 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.
            There is no war on women.

            bill: The truth is that democrats are starting a war on woman(at an opportune time I might add), just like a lot of other groups they have under their hairy wing like environmentalists, unions, indian tribes, blacks, lawyers and a few more who vote almost 100% democrat. The democrats are the ones making an issue of women, ONLY FOR THE VOTES.

            Mom and Pop stores are bad places to work.
            Women make the same wages as men.

            bill: Very shallow, little man.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 4:15 am on Sat, May 5, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco posted at 10:42 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.


            ..............which brings to mind the timeless story of Prince Lakkanukki and Princess Kamaniwanalea

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:42 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Humuhumunukunukuapua'a

            Our State fish.

            Yours is the cutthroat trout. How quaint.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:57 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            Ya know, I googled " Hawaiian language", and ?..... 5 vowels and 8 consonants...amazing. It must be very subjective with a lot of body language and voice inflections?

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:56 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            JB: All the "F" words were already in use for people from Hawaii.............

            -------------------
            Uh, in the Hawaiian language there is no "F". No J or B either. Lucky I live Hawaii.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 5:20 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            HighTechCowboy posted at 3:07 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            HTC: Next time you're in this area, you should try the Three Forks Grill on Nucleus Ave. in Columbia Falls. True gourmet cooking at reasonable prices.

            We agree on this, it is delicious, for sure. Eat there all the time. Very good food.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 4:02 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco: "What is it with all the 'S' words for family-owned businesses in Kalispell?"

            All the "F" words were already in use for people from Hawaii.............

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:49 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Let's see. HTC so far this week:

            Mom and Pop stores are bad places to work.

            There is no war on women.

            Women make the same wages as men.
            --------------------------------
            HTC: HTC: Leave it to you to quote the study which was the source of the BS that has been roundly debunked!
            ---------------------------------------
            Right. They got their statistics from reliable sources. They are listed on pgs 27/28 I believe.

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:40 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: The only difference between them and the "Mom and Pops" is they pay better, offer better benefits and are more stable.
            --------------------------------
            YIKES! We should fear people like you! I suppose funding CEOs so they can buy another vacation home is your business-as-usual, screw-over the little guy, capitalism at its best, mantra. I prefer to help local business owners send their daughters to college.

            http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/smart-growth-working-families/harms-big-box-retail

            Harm #2: Big-box stores undermine retail wages

            Retailing is notorious for its low wages, part-time hours, and lack of health insurance and pension benefits. The only exception are those grocery chains that are unionized, but big-box behemoth Walmart, by entering the grocery business with its Supercenters and aggressively fighting union organizing efforts, is now the top seller of food and a major source of downward pressure on grocery wages.

            The same pattern is true even in retail segments where there are no unions. As studies by the Austin, Texas-based consulting firm Civic Economics have found, national retail (including restaurant) chains in general pay lower wages and benefits than do locally owned businesses. By that measure and others, it has found that the chains generate fewer ripple effects in local economies: they procure less, bank less, contribute less, and participate less.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:16 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: Funny, when I visit my hometown of Conservative, USA, all the 'patriots' shop at Walmart. I guess if one cannot spell hypocrisy, one is excused from practicing it like a religion.

            HTC: You're a real crack-up. Like you don't buy the same goods made in China, India, Thailand, et al? The same goods that are sold in "Mom and Pop" stores?

            Where you bought it is irrelevant as Walmart and the other "big boxes" are U.S. companies hiring U.S. employees who work in U.S. built stores in U.S. towns. The only difference between them and the "Mom and Pops" is they pay better, offer better benefits and are more stable.

            You may now go back to blowing more BS out of you a$s......

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:11 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: Here ya go, HTC.

            http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/upload/simpletruthaboutpaygap1.pdf

            Can't fight those stats.

            HTC: Leave it to you to quote the study which was the source of the BS that has been roundly debunked!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:09 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rebel Rouser: Even though the owner is a damned rRepublican, he has done a tremendous job supporting the community.

            HTC: That's only a surprise to you. For those of us with our eyes wide open, that's a common scenario!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:07 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: I go to Snappy's, eat at Spencers and Scotty's, and even had breakfast a few times at Sykes (Love their 10c coffee sign!)

            HTC: Next time you're in this area, you should try the Three Forks Grill on Nucleus Ave. in Columbia Falls. True gourmet cooking at reasonable prices.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:05 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: Oh, it's women's fault they don't get paid as much as men. They're too dumb, too lazy, or just ain't got the moxie/cojones. Got it. Nice salvo in the War on Women.

            HTC: Yeah, that's what I thought - the truth is too much for you to handle. I'll bet you didn't even read any of the research I posted links to.

            "You can't handle the truth!" - Col. Jessup (Jack Nicholson, A Few Good Men)

            I think he was talking about people just like you.

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:18 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Rebel and JB, I do support local, wherever I travel. The local breweries love me! I go to Snappy's, eat at Spencers and Scotty's, and even had breakfast a few times at Sykes (Love their 10c coffee sign!) What is it with all the 'S' words for family-owned businesses in Kalispell?

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 12:21 pm on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Rebel Rouser posted at 11:50 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Sykes grows their own beef.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 11:50 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1563

            "Then go on with my full support of the local Mom and Pops. "

            Bronco, just a heads up, the local (Kalispell) store to support (IMHO) is the new Sykes market. Even though the owner is a damned rRepublican, he has done a tremendous job supporting the community. They use as many local suppliers as they can and have the best (locally raised) rib eye steaks around, plus the money stays in the valley/area. I highly recommend supporting their effort. The workers are very happy to have jobs, and to work for the new owner, Ray Thompson. That is if you ever come into town....peace.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:47 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            http://mrdeity.com/s3ep2x.html

            What are ya gonna do with W?

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:22 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Here ya go, HTC.

            http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/upload/simpletruthaboutpaygap1.pdf

            Can't fight those stats.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:17 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            I applaud Hilary Clinton's efforts and all the others who have assisted in getting Chen Guangcheng out of the Walmart/Kmart/Big Box Store-supply nation. I promise to visit Kmart soon and make a purchase. Then go on with my full support of the local Mom and Pops.

            Funny, when I visit my hometown of Conservative, USA, all the 'patriots' shop at Walmart. I guess if one cannot spell hypocrisy, one is excused from practicing it like a religion.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:06 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:51 am
            ---------------------------
            Oh, it's women's fault they don't get paid as much as men. They're too dumb, too lazy, or just ain't got the moxie/cojones. Got it. Nice salvo in the War on Women.
            What's next? How about those reproduction rights?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:51 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco posted at 8:17 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012

            You continue to demonstrate that you lack an analytical mind, for the true thinking person does research to see if the other side might be onto something. Not you, though, as you obviously went searching only for reports that seemed to support your preconceived and popular mythical beliefs. You also frequently fail to realize that BS has often traveled around the planet several times before the truth is finally let out of the gate, especially with the majority of media outlets being left-leaning.

            I don't care how many links to liberal distortions that you provide, repeated regurgitation of a falsehood does not magically make it true.

            If you really are interested in the truth and have the stomach to digest it, check out these:

            http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/lisaquast/2011/03/14/debunking-myths-of-gender-equality-are-personal-choices-and-preferences-whats-really-holding-women-back-from-achieving-parity-at-work/

            http://tinyurl.com/88au4ph (A long read, possibly too long for you - containing the research described in the previous link)

            You can think of this research as something of a test of character: If you do it and are persuaded by the facts, you will have proven yourself to be a man who values truth over myth regardless of that myth's popularity; if not, well, we all know what that would make you.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:30 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Pete posted at 9:08 am on Fri, May 4, 2012

            Good post, Pete.

            It is clear that Rob prefers constitutions with "positive rights" as does the contemptible Ginsberg who swore an oath to uphold and defend the very Constitution she constantly derides and tramples upon. They view ours as having "negative rights" because it restricts what government can do so as to protect our liberty as individuals and states, secure under a federation which gives the federal government VERY few powers and those primarily focused on protecting us from aggression, providing a stable currency and promoting interstate commerce.

            These progressives, ignorant of what real liberty is, want a government that will provide for us, not recognizing that a government powerful enough to do that will eventually rule every aspect of our lives and our economy. They fail to understand that, without economic liberty, there is no personal liberty.

            Tiring of battling people like us who try to throw every obstacle we can in their path on their way to their 'utopian' world of "social justice", they want a Constitution which mandates their 'utopia' and, along with it, the tyranny they cannot see.

            I wear as a badge of honor the contempt of people like Rob and Bronco. A man is defined as much, if not more, by his enemies as he is by his friends.

             
          • Pete posted at 9:08 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 6:14 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            I tried to filter through the pettiness to make some sense of what you said, but I think you are still a bit confused. Actually it was Ginsberg (although it wouldn't surprise me if Kagan agreed) who was speaking to the Egyptians and she specifically stated that she would NOT look to the U.S. Constitution. Your spin was much too kind to her comments as seen below.

            "I would not look to the US constitution, if I were drafting a constitution in the year 2012. I might look at the constitution of South Africa. That was a deliberate attempt to have a fundamental instrument of government that embraced basic human rights, had an independent judiciary… It really is, I think, a great piece of work that was done. Much more recent than the US constitution – Canada has a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It dates from 1982. You would almost certainly look at the European Convention on Human Rights." -Ginsberg

            I'm sure the distinction between what you think she said and what she actually said doesn't make two hoots of difference to you - I expect you will simply shrug it off as inconsequential. (You probably agree with her either way - which further demonstrates your logic disconnect) However, I think your comments serve to illustrate two things. First...you find the delivery of facts far less important than the delivery of insults and secondly I was essentially correct in my assessment of your sentiments regarding the U.S. Constitution.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:53 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            Interesting, as the 1 July sanctions get closer to reality while the need of fueling China for all it's exports to Big Box Stores and Apple dawns on the American Public and it's Congress.....Could get ugly?

            Zhuhai Zhenrong Books May Fuel-Oil Shipment From Iran
            By Yee Kai Pin - May 3, 2012 9:40 PM MT

            Zhuhai Zhenrong Co., the Chinese company censured by the U.S. in January for trading with Iran, provisionally hired an oil tanker to carry fuel oil from the Persian Gulf nation, shipping data showed.
            Tianbao, a unit of state-owned Zhuhai Zhenrong, chartered the Khorfakkan to load 80,000 metric tons on May 15 from the Iranian port of Bandar Mahshahr, according to three shipbrokers including Poten & Partners Inc. in New York. The Liberia-flagged vessel is under way in the Persian Gulf, transmissions captured by IHS Inc. (IHS) on Bloomberg show.
            Fuel oil is a residual product of refining used for power generation and as shipping fuel. Two phone calls to Zhuhai Zhenrong’s office in Beijing weren’t answered. Provisional fixtures are subject to changes or cancellation.
            China is the largest importer of Iran’s oil, buying 22 percent of the nation’s crude exports in the first half of 2011, according to the latest available data from the U.S. Energy Department. Iran faces a European Union embargo on the transportation, purchase, financing and insurance of its oil starting July 1 because of its nuclear program.
            Zhuhai Zhenrong was one of three companies sanctioned on Jan. 12 by the State Department for selling gasoline to Iran. It was barred from receiving U.S. export licenses or loans of more than $10 million from U.S. financial institutions.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:14 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            Pete posted at 2:40 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            "Like a lot of liberals, Rob is partial to South Africa's constitution because it requires the government to affirmatively provide socio-economic "necessities"....."

            That's quite a stretch, Pete. Have you been working out at the gym with a Medicine Ball? You really should bounce it off your solar plexus, not your head.

            If I remember this line of thought from a few months ago, you jumped all over Supreme Court Justice Kagan for suggesting to law makers in South Africa that their Constitution would be best if it emulated ours, but with some changes that are Up To Date and Specific to their Nation-Republic. When I defended such thinking-out-loud by a visiting Justice lecturing in a foreign country, you jumped all over me, with your "Don't Tread on Me" battle flag blowing in the wind and your Davy Jones Revolutionary War hat, borrowed from the Summer Theater, cocked on the side of your big head, while pointing out that Our Constitution is written in Stone and is the Best there ever was and all should worship it.

            Of course, you did receive much praise and support from old "Stick in the Mud', as expected. Sigh....

             
          • jennydoe posted at 4:01 am on Fri, May 4, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HTC: I thought I'd explained this earlier. Those stats are complete BS
            ------------
            How is it that you are the only one who has accurate information?

            The wage gap persists regardless of industry.
            The wage gap exists regardless of education level.
            Waiters make better tips than waitresses, regardless of the service.
            Latinas make 54 cents to male counterparts one dollar.

             
          • Bronco posted at 8:17 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: I thought I'd explained this earlier. Those stats are complete BS
            -------------------
            http://www.careerbuilder.com/Article/CB-709-Getting-Ahead-Equal-Pay-for-Women-Not-Til-2050/
            http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html
            http://www.infoplease.com/spot/equalpayact1.html
            http://www.pay-equity.org/
            http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110602982.html
            http://www.catalyst.org/publication/217/womens-earnings-and-income
            http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/paygapgrows.htm

            and why am I not surprised here?...

            Fox Attacks Democrats For Attempting To Deal With Gender Wage Inequality
            April 30, 2012 4:30 pm ET
            Fox & Friends attacked the Paycheck Fairness Act, legislation aimed at addressing the wage inequality between men and women, with Fox host Dan Perino claiming the legislation is just a "distraction." In fact, wage inequality is real: Study after study has found that women are paid less than men.

            Link to media (video).
            Paycheck Fairness Act Tries To Remedy Gender Wage Discrimination

            Paycheck Fairness Act: Despite Previous Laws, "Many Women Continue To Earn Significantly Lower Pay Than Men For Equal Work." From S.797, the Paycheck Fairness Act:

            (that last one from http://mediamatters.org/mobile/research/201204300011 )

            Face the facts, HTC, you can't handle the truth.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 7:09 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            HighTechCowboy posted at 6:35 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.
            HTC: I thought I'd explained this earlier. Those stats are complete BS because...

            He said so? One can find whatever they want to read on the internet, fairly easy.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 7:06 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            HighTechCowboy posted at 1:31 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.
            The same president who lied, lied, lied to avoid the consequences of his actions is lecturing US about bravery!

            Wasn't he being crucified by a man who was doing the same thing? Oh, yeah, that doesn't matter, cause he was your guy.

            Here we have a former president calling Obama "brave" for his decision to authorize the Seal Team 6 mission...

            Now, if McCain had authorized this, wouldn't you be screaming from the rooftops about how brave he was? What a patriot he is? Would you have a problem if McCain used this in the same way? I think not. He is on the RIGHT side of the aisle, correct? Oh well, buisness as usual.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:35 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            jennydoe: Women earn 69 cents for every dollar men make...

            HTC: I thought I'd explained this earlier. Those stats are complete BS because they compare average wages for ALL women with average wages for ALL men, regardless of kind of work, education level, years of experience and hours worked. Right now, that metric is heavily skewed towards men because more of them hold professional jobs and more women hold lower-tiered jobs (e.g., waitressing, laundry services, etc.)

            That is changing rapidly as more women pursue higher education and enter the professional ranks and more men look for the 'easy' route through life.

            But when women with the same job, same level of education and experience, and same hours worked over time are compared to their male counterparts, the alleged wage difference disappears.

            What you and the media quote is a complete BS metric except to politicians and others who wish to prey on the ignorance of the masses (pretty damn easy these days.)

             
          • jennydoe posted at 5:30 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HTC - You believe nonsense regarding women's pay which has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked; the real facts showing that, when one compare apples-to-apples (i.e., women to men doing the same job, with the same education level and working the same amount of time), women make essentially the same earnings as their male counterparts.

            It is you that has the blinders on, not kohana.
            -----------
            What debunking?:

            Utah’s wage gap for women is the third largest in U.S.
            Equality » Women earn 69 cents for every dollar men make — a disparity that harms families and the state’s economy, advocacy group says.
            By dawn house
            | The Salt Lake Tribune
            First Published Apr 16 2012 05:53 pm • Last Updated Apr 17 2012 04:16 pm
            Data released Tuesday for Equal Pay Day show that wages for Utah women remain considerably lower than for men, which is costing families throughout the state thousands of dollars each year.

            Women in Utah are paid 69 cents for every dollar paid to men — amounting to a yearly gap of $14,446. And with nearly 85,500 Utah households led by women, the new data show that these gaps harm families and the state economy, according to a report by National Partnership for Women & Families, a Washington, D.C.-based advocacy group.
            If the gap between men’s and women’s wages were eliminated, each full-time working woman in Utah could afford to pay for groceries for an additional 2.1 years, buy 3,890 more gallons of gas, pay mortgages and utilities for 10 more months, pay rent for 18 more months or purchase family health insurance premiums for 4.1 more years.

            These necessities would be particularly important for the 28.2 percent of Utah’s women-led households now living below the poverty level.

            The analysis ranks Utah 48th among the 50 states in gender-based wage gap. There’s virtually no improvement from last year’s report, which put Utah’s pay gap as the fourth largest in the nation.

            "It doesn’t look like Utah has made any progress over the past year," said Sarah Crawford, the organization’s director of workplace fairness.

            Only Louisiana, ranked 49th, and Wyoming, 50th, fare worse. By contrast, in Vermont, No. 1, women are paid 84 cents for every dollar paid to men, amounting to a yearly gap of $6,671 between full-time working men and women.

            Tuesday’s Equal Pay Day was originated by the National Committee on Pay Equity in 1996 to illustrate the gap between men’s and women’s wages.

            The gap in earnings for Utah women isn’t all that surprising, considering their troublesome college graduation rates, said Lecia Parks Langston, an economist with the Utah Department of Workforce Services.

            Utah has the worst disparity in the nation between men and women earning bachelor’s degrees or higher — a difference of 6 percentage points. The Utah education gap more than doubles that of the next closest state, Idaho, at 2.4 percentage points, while the national average is 0.6 points.
            "Education does pay," Langston said. "Women in Utah may think that they won’t have to work, but they do — and at a higher percentage than women nationally. There needs to be more emphasis on women understanding that they need to go to college and graduate. But there must be a big cultural change for this to happen."

            In Utah, black women and Latinas do much worse, receiving annually $22,229 and $22,405, respectively, less than all Utah men.

            "This new analysis illustrates just how much harm the wage gap does to women and families throughout the country, and especially to women of color where the gap between the wages paid to women and men is staggering," said National Partnership President Debra L. Ness in a statement.

            Nationally, women working full-time are paid just 77 cents for every dollar paid to their male counterparts. Black women are paid 62 cents and Latinas are paid 54 cents for every dollar paid to men.

            The gap has been closing at a rate of less than half a cent per year since passage of the Equal Pay Act in 1963.

            "The Equal Pay Act was enacted 49 years ago and women are still paid 23 cents less than men on the dollar," Ness said.

            The Paycheck Fairness Act, which would close loopholes in the Equal Pay Act, was passed by the U.S. House of Representatives in the past two Congresses, but it fell two votes short of moving forward in the Senate in 2010. It has been reintroduced in the current Congress.
            The wage gap remains even when accounting for personal choices — such as work patterns and education, according to a Government Accountability Office study. Working mothers pay a "penalty" for having children while fathers get a bonus. Nationally, women with children are paid 2.5 percent less than women without children, while men with children experience a boost of 2.1 percent over men without children.

            Other findings in the report:
            The wage gap persists regardless of industry » Women are paid disproportionately less than their male counterparts across industries. In the financial industry, women are paid 71 cents for every dollar paid to men; in manufacturing, 74 cents. In education and health services, 77 cents. And in public administration, women are paid 79 cents for every dollar paid to men.

            The wage gap exists regardless of education level » Despite women’s increasing presence in higher education, advanced training does not reduce the wage gap. Women with professional degrees are paid 67 cents for every dollar paid to men with professional degrees. Furthermore, women with doctoral degrees are paid less than men with master’s degrees, and women with master’s degrees are paid less than men with bachelor’s degrees.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 4:52 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HTC: Apparently hallucination has become your permanent reality.
            ---------
            call it a contact buzz from JEB.....

             
          • jennydoe posted at 4:51 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            excuse me mr. HTC, it was Arizona, not Nevada.....


            .......None of the 20-week laws has been court-tested. So other states have queued up with their own versions. Arizona has now joined them.

            With a perverse added twist. Call it the Life Begins at Menstruation provision.

            The way the 20 weeks would be calculated in Arizona is with a countdown that starts on the first day of a woman’s period. Kate Sheppard explains:


            Most women ovulate about 14 or 15 days after their period starts, and women can usually get pregnant from sexual intercourse that occur[r]ed anywhere between five days before ovulation and a day after it. Arizona's law would start the clock at a woman's last period—which means, in practice, that the law prohibits abortion later than 18 weeks after a woman actually becomes pregnant.
            In practice, it means that, under the Arizona law, a virgin could be pregnant........


            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/03/1080333/-Holy-moly-Virgins-can-get-pregnant-if-Arizona-s-retroactive-conception-provision-turns-into-law

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 4:27 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            ABC NEWS:

            Al Qaeda Magazine Calls for Firebomb Campaign in US

            By RANDY KREIDER
            May 2, 2012

            The men who launched al Qaeda's English-language magazine may have died in a U.S. missile strike last fall, but "Inspire" magazine lives on without them -- and continues to promote jihadi attacks on Western targets, offering detailed advice on how to start huge forest fires in America with timed explosives and how to build remote-controlled bombs.

            Two new issues of "Inspire" magazine have surfaced on jihadi forums, the first since radical cleric Anwar al-Awlaki and chief Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula propagandist Samir Khan were killed by missiles from a U.S. drone over Yemen on September 30, 2011. The magazines eulogize Awlaki and Khan as the "spirit" and the "tongue" of "Inspire" respectively, but deny that their deaths will stop the magazine or jihad.

            The second of the two issues seems to have been prepared after Khan and Awlaki's deaths. "To the disappointment of our enemies," says one of the articles, "issue 9 of Inspire magazine is out against all odds ... The Zionists and the Crusaders thought that the magazine was gone with the martyrdom of Shaykh Anwar and brother Samir. Yet again, they have failed to come to terms with the fact that the Muslim ummah is the most fertile and most generous mother that gives birth to thousands and thousands of the likes of Shaykh Anwar and brother Samir."
            U.S.-Born Top Al Qaeda Leader Killed Watch Video
            Anwar al-Awlaki Killed: How US Got Him Watch Video
            Anwar al-Awlaki Killed: End of al Qaeda? Watch Video

            The ummah is apparently not giving birth to proofreaders, however, since both issues are riddled with typos, including one on the cover of issue nine, where a headline asks whether the West or al Qaeda is "Wining on the Ground." Issue eight, which includes the last editorial note from Samir Khan, also displays a help-wanted ad, asking for researchers and translators, "sisters' willing to write articles," and "people who can preserve permanent internet links for all of the magazine issues." Popular jihadi web forums have recently been plagued by unknown cyberhackers who have taken some of the sites offline for weeks at a time.

            The magazines have also lost some of the snark and American colloquialisms favored by the U.S.-raised Samir Khan, who memorably titled one of his articles urging Western Muslims to wage lone wolf attacks "Make a Bomb in the Kitchen of Your Mom." But issue nine carries equally lethal advice, with "It Is of Your Freedom to Ignite a Firebomb," which gives detailed instructions on how to ignite an "ember bomb" in a U.S. forest, recommending Montana because of the rapid population growth in wooded areas.

            ***"In America, there are more houses built in the [countryside] than in the cities," says the writer, who uses the pseudonym The AQ Chef. "It is difficult to choose a better place [than] in the valleys of Montana."***

            Issue eight has an eight-page article on how to construct remote-controlled explosives, with a laundry list of parts and ingredients and photos showing proper assembly.

            In addition, issue eight provides tips on training with a handgun and issue nine provides advice on how to be an urban assassin.

            But much of the magazine is taken up by lengthy tributes to Khan and Awlaki, with one writer confirming that Awlaki had survived a near miss from one drone strike before being taken out by a second. According to the article, after his close call, Awlaki said, "This time 11 missiles missed [their] target, but the next time the first rocket may hit it."

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            Think it can't come here...??? Think AGAIN...........!!!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:07 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: So, basically, HTC and STONE are refuting the facts based on who reports them.

            HTC: You constantly leap to conclusions that aren't supported by our dialogue. All I said was that MoveOn and you often get your facts wrong. I haven't said anything yet about those allegations which you plagiarized.

            I don't have time right now to investigate them but, be assured, I will.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 3:46 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1563

            Kohana said: "Women should have the right to choose what to do with their bodies but shouldn't wait until the last d@mn minute thus killing a child that could live on it's own.

            I agree that some women wait way too long, and that is why it is so important for these (usually) young women to have easy access to planned parenthood facilities, places that educate them, places where they are not afraid to walk up to the door because of chanting, cChristian, fanatical, lunatics. Also, there are very few options that have the same low cost as abortion. I would like to see an education program (addressing this very issue) for women in the 14-28 year old range, showing partial birth abortions to help them make an early decision if they should ever end up with an unwanted pregnancy. You just cannot effectively legislate morality, which seems to be the conservative's only solution.

            And: "Obama will be the one turning us over to Sharia law, not Romney."

            Sorry, I didn't make that point very clear. I was trying to compare the rRepublican cChristian's plan for society to iIslam's sSharia law, both quite equal in my view (or too close for my comfort zone).

            One more thing, if you stick with the rRepublicans, they will most assuredly focus on removing more personal freedoms from all Americans. They say they are all about smaller government, however, as soon as they get into any government position, their first (sometimes only) inclination is to begin legislating moral issues that they don't agree with, freedom be d@mned.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 3:19 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1563

            Romney Pays Surprise Visit to his Money in the Caymans
            No Timetable for Withdrawal, Says Presumptive Nominee

            CAYMAN ISLANDS - In an uncharacteristically emotional scene for the presumptive GOP nominee, Mitt Romney today paid a surprise visit to his money in the Cayman Islands.

            Speaking in a bank vault surrounded by stacks of cash, Mr. Romney praised his money for "the brave work you have done in the never-ending fight for freedom from Federal income tax."

            "Thanks to your hard work, losers around the world are envious of me," he added. "For that I salute you."

            Stressing that his money's mission in the Caymans was "far from over," he refused to set any timetable for withdrawal.

            In a reference to his bid for the Presidency, Mr. Romney told his money, "It would be an honor and a privilege to have my face on you someday."

            After plunging into the stacks of cash to touch many of the dollar bills individually, Mr. Romney boarded his private jet to pay a surprise visit to Switzerland.

             
          • Pete posted at 2:46 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 11:43 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            "If we were all Native Americans/First Nation types..."

            Funny you should mention that.

            "Massachusetts Senate hopeful Elizabeth Warren is still scrambling to explain why she once claimed to be a Native American minority.

            The Harvard Law professor is now claiming she knows she has American Indian blood because a female relative told her that her grandfather had “high cheek bones like all the Indians do.”

            Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/05/03/elizabeth-warren-still-scrambling-to-explain-her-native-american-minority-claim/#ixzz1tqEctLf5

             
          • Pete posted at 2:40 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:27 am on Thu, May 3, 2012

            Like a lot of liberals, Rob is partial to South Africa's constitution because it requires the government to affirmatively provide socio-economic "necessities"...or as inevitably happens...force others to provide "socio-economic necessities" when the government is ultimately unable to. (There are some nice enforcement provisions provided to the STATE.) Sound familiar?

             
          • Bronco posted at 2:23 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            So, basically, HTC and STONE are refuting the facts based on who reports them. They are saying these things did not occur.

            http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0203/Did-bill-try-to-redefine-rape-GOP-backs-down-after-public-outcry.

            http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/02/16/144869/gop-women-kids/ (complete with video)

            http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/laurilebo/4251/south_dakota_bill_could_legalize_killing_abortion_doctors_

            I could go on and on, but why? Facts trump denial...except in religion and HTC/STONE's NWO.


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:34 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            JBSTONE: Stolen directly from Move On Dot Org..........which is hardly a truthful or dependable source.

            HTC: If a detailed historical analysis were to be made, we might find that MoveOn is factually correct a little bit more often than is Bronco; but then, when your batting average is that low, does it matter?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:31 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            The Obama ad regarding bin Laden's killing is particularly laughable, given Bill Clinton's part in it. Here we have a former president calling Obama "brave" for his decision to authorize the Seal Team 6 mission; yes, the same president who had Osama offered to him on a silver platter THREE times and who THREE times turned down the offer because he didn't know what he'd do with the guy once he was in his custody!

            The same president who lied, lied, lied to avoid the consequences of his actions is lecturing US about bravery!

            Billy explains that it was a brave decision because "if it had gone down badly, the consequences would have been horrible for him [Obama]."

            Horrible for HIM? I find it hard to believe that the consequences for Obama would have even come close to rivaling those for the SEAL team.

            But then, I forget that for men like Bill and Obama, it's all about THEM.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 1:03 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco posted at 11:10 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            NIce try you phony.

            Stolen directly from Move On Dot Org..........which is hardly a truthful or dependable source.

            http://pol.moveon.org/waronwomen/

            Admit it, you have NOTHING...........!!!

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:07 pm on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Rob123 posted at 11:43 am
            --------------
            Most verily, Stands with Gist.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:43 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            It's all become clear, Bronco! If we were all Native Americans/First Nation types, instead of European Refugees, I am sure HTC's name would be 'Stick in the Mud'. Don't you agree, Soaring Eagle?

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:10 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            By golly, HTC/STONE, yer Right. There is no War on Women: Just their rights.

            1) Republicans not only want to reduce women's access to abortion care, they're actually trying to redefine rape. After a major backlash, they promised to stop. But they haven't yet. Shocker.

            2) A state legislator in Georgia wants to change the legal term for victims of rape, stalking, and domestic violence to "accuser." But victims of other less gendered crimes, like burglary, would remain "victims."

            3) In South Dakota, Republicans proposed a bill that could make it legal to murder a doctor who provides abortion care. (Yep, for real.)

            4) Republicans want to cut nearly a billion dollars of food and other aid to low-income pregnant women, mothers, babies, and kids.

            5) In Congress, Republicans have a bill that would let hospitals allow a woman to die rather than perform an abortion necessary to save her life.

            6) Maryland Republicans ended all county money for a low-income kids' preschool program. Why? No need, they said. Women should really be home with the kids, not out working.

            7) And at the federal level, Republicans want to cut that same program, Head Start, by $1 billion. That means over 200,000 kids could lose their spots in preschool.

            8) Two-thirds of the elderly poor are women, and Republicans are taking aim at them too. A spending bill would cut funding for employment services, meals, and housing for senior citizens.

            9) Congress just voted for a Republican amendment to cut all federal funding from Planned Parenthood health centers, one of the most trusted providers of basic health care and family planning in our country.

            10) And if that wasn't enough, Republicans are pushing to eliminate all funds for the only federal family planning program. (For humans. But Republican Dan Burton has a bill to provide contraception for wild horses. You can't make this stuff up).

            Unsheathe thy Raping Wand, and puteth Woman in her place. Apparently, HTC, '...hallucination has become your permanent reality.'

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:29 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            jennydoe posted at 9:47 am on Thu, May 3, 2012

            HTC: Apparently hallucination has become your permanent reality.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:27 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            jennydoe: because Rebel Rouser posted a post by Barbara Boxer you all get bent out of shape. You don't like her, so of course she must be lying? I don't get it.

            HTC: I realize that many people respond that way about people they dislike, regarding everything said by the object of their contempt as a lie.

            But I can assure you that, while I don't like Barbara Boxer, I don't hate her either and always carefully weigh the things she says and does; and, just as even the blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut, so does Barbara occasionally come down on the correct side of an issue. It just doesn't happen enough to justify her re-election and, if polls in CA are any indication, her re-election isn't assured.

            Boxer, like Pelosi ("We've got to pass it to see what's in it"), is a shining example of the endpath of progressivism, a state virtually indistinguishable from insanity. She has said and done so many divisive and ridiculous things that even fellow Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein shuns her.

            Boxer has indeed become leprosy to all but the most far left of CA's progressives.

            jennydoe: I don't know if there is an official war on women, but there are several indications that the republicans are trying to put us back in the kitchen with aprons. Why kohana cannot see this is beyond me.

            HTC: Kohana simply does not share your hallucination.

            jennydoe: Take Planned Parenthood in Texas. my goodness, just the other day it was called a terrorist organization. Now hundreds of thousands of women have no preventative screenings or women's health care. How about the wage disparity? Women still only make 77% of what a man earns in a similar situation.

            HTC: You've obviously swallowed 100% the diatribe from the left. You believe that if someone won't pay for something that some women desire and insist is a 'right', that those who resist providing those benefits are waging a "war against women" when they are instead exercising their conscience and defending the Constitution against the continued encroachment of the socialist state.

            You believe nonsense regarding women's pay which has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked; the real facts showing that, when one compare apples-to-apples (i.e., women to men doing the same job, with the same education level and working the same amount of time), women make essentially the same earnings as their male counterparts.

            It is you that has the blinders on, not kohana.

            jennydoe: Heck, in Nevada you're considered pregnant once you ovulate.

            HTC: Really? Can you back that up?

            jennydoe: "The constitution doesn't give any rights to women" really.

            HTC: The Constitution doesn't give anyone rights per se; it only seeks to protect our rights which our Founders believed were a gift from our Creator; hence, they were "inalienable" rights that could not be violated by the state. That's why the Bill of Rights is written in the negative, describing what our government CANNOT do to violate some of the most important rights we have. All other rights were delegated to the people and the states by the Tenth Amendment, removing them from the pervue of the federal government. This is what enables states to decide issues that are off-limits for the feds.

            Nowhere in the Constitution, nor in the writings of the Founders, nor in the history of man (except for royalty and modern progressivism), will you find anyone having a 'right' to something that someone else had to provide or pay for.

            Progressivism is no different than rule by royalty in that it has replaced the 'poor' as our new lords for whom we must work and who will tell us how much of the fruits of our labor we will be allowed to keep.

            It is just another form of tyranny and you apparently support it.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 9:47 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:53 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.
            -------
            1) - that's right, Bush didn't give a care about bin laden once he figured he could lie to settle an old family dispute with Sadam.
            2) - that's right. Bush administration Never had accurate intel, did they? (did they even ever care if they did?)
            3) - that's right. They were always worried about our soldiers, that is why they provided them with such high quality protective gear.
            4) - that's right. We have always respected the ways/lifestyles/wishes of other nations.

            Couth is long gone, and it is you republicans that have taught us that.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:40 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Pete: ...I thought that mantra had run its course a couple of months ago.

            HTC: Excellent post, Pete! But I am a little surprised that you expected our resident progressives to have learned this, or any other lesson. That's just not possible for them as they keep demonstrating over and over again.

            'Thinking' is more of a reflexive thing for them - tickle the nerve and you'll get the same response no matter how wrong that response might be or how many times that reflex has hurt them or others.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:53 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            jennydoe: Except the fact that Don Rumsfeld got all chickenshltted and aborted a similar mission in 2005.

            HTC: Other than the fact that both missions involved operations on Pakistani soil, there were practically NO other major similarities between the mission in 2005 which Rumsfeld nixed and the mission which got bin Laden.

            Key differences:

            (1) The 2005 operation was NOT targeting bin Laden, a very high value target; rather, it was targeting lower level deputies who were believed to be meeting in the mountains of Pakistan.

            (2) The intel regarding that meeting was weak; whereas, the intel on bin Laden's home was strong.

            (3) The 2005 mission, as jointly defined by the CIA and their military liasons involved hundreds of people on the ground rather than just a small, elite SEAL team. This hamstrung the mission with extreme risk, dozens of contingency plans and the appearance of a broader-scale 'invasion' of Pakistan.

            (4) In 2005, Pakistan had still barred the U.S. from engaging in ANY military operations on their soil or in their airspace and we were still heavily dependent upon their support in our efforts to track Al Qaeda and Taliban operatives hiding in their mountains. Since then, they have relaxed those limitations significantly and we have developed other intelligence assets. So, our dependency upon Pakistan was significantly less at the time Obama made his decision.

            Don't get me wrong - Obama still had to make the call and I'm glad he did. I firmly believe he made the right choice, but to steal the glory for himself and to politicize it as he's doing is below crass.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:27 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rob123: And what year was the Constitution written?

            HTC: Ah, so you're one of THOSE who consider the Constitution to be either a "living document", subject to the loosest of 'modern' interpretation and whim, or irrelevant as an 'ancient' document which has outlived its usefulness.

            Either way, you demonstrate that you have no understanding whatsoever as to what purpose a constitution serves and why it is VERY different from legislated law.

            Please point out to me where the Constitution actually discriminates against women and please enumerate for me the 'rights' of women which are "under attack" by the GOP.

            You can cheat and work with Bronco on your answer, if you like. Failure to provide these answers will simply force one to conclude that you and Bronco are once again talking out of your arses.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 8:19 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            because Rebel Rouser posted a post by Barbara Boxer you all get bent out of shape.
            You don't like her, so of course she must be lying? I don't get it.
            I don't know if there is an official war on women, but there are several indications that the republicans are trying to put us back in the kitchen with aprons. Why kohana cannot see this is beyond me.
            Take Planned Parenthood in Texas. my goodness, just the other day it was called a terrorist organization. Now hundreds of thousands of women have no preventative screenings or women's health care. How about the wage disparity? Women still only make 77% of what a man earns in a similar situation.
            Heck, in Nevada you're considered pregnant once you ovulate. Gee, in 2011, state legislatures enacted 135 provisions affecting women's reproductive rights. But heck, since a way small percentage of women are lost and don't use birth control and choose abortion after they realize the baby won't have a daddy that loves them then no woman deserves the right to choose what is best for her? It is not all peachy keen out there for some woman. "I didn't have access to birth control, so no one should." "The constitution doesn't give any rights to women" really.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 8:16 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Rob: Rob123 posted at 4:39 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            You are once more playing at semantics instead of addressing the question as posited....not that THAT is anything "new".

            I want you to LIST the SPECIFIC "rights" of women which are being infringed upon or attacked as you gliberal numnutz seem to "think" is happening.

            If you can't do that, then just STFU along with Bronco. I'm tired of it.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:14 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rob123 posted at 4:13 am on Thu, May 3, 2012

            HTC: Before you injure yourself patting yourself on the back over your perceived cleverness, there's a BIG difference between the mandated auto insurance and mandated health insurance scenarios.

            In the case of the former, driving is a privilege and uses publicly provided roadways and travel-related services; therefore, the government has the right to impose reasonable requirements in the exercise of that privilege.

            You'll notice that vehicles which aren't driven on public roads aren't required to be insured, so you always have the option of not driving on public roads and using some other form of transportation instead, thus avoiding the 'tax' of the financial responsibility law.

            In the case of ObamaCare's personal mandate, it taxes one merely for being alive. The only way to avoid the tax is to quit breathing. It grossly violates the first of the three most fundamental rights of all men; namely, the "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

            There is an easy way to ensure financial responsibility where healthcare is concerned: get the government completely out of it. Then, if you don't have insurance and/or can't pay for the healthcare you desire, you don't get it unless private charity steps in.

            Problem solved!

            And as for the self-insurance thing in MT, you must either deposit $55,000 with the State Treasurer or get a self-insurance certificate which also requires that you own 25 or more vehicles. The MCA is rather vague in it's requirements:

            "61-6-143. Self-insurers. (1) Any person in whose name more than 25 motor vehicles are registered may qualify as a self-insurer by obtaining a certificate of self-insurance issued by the department as provided in subsection (2) of this section.
            (2) The department may, in its discretion, upon the application of such a person, issue a certificate of self-insurance when it is satisfied that such person is possessed and will continue to be possessed of ability to pay judgments obtained against such person.
            (3) Upon not less than 5 days' notice and a hearing pursuant to such notice, the department may upon reasonable grounds cancel a certificate of self-insurance. Failure to pay any judgment within 30 days after such judgment shall have become final shall constitute a reasonable ground for the cancellation of a certificate of self-insurance."

            So the $55,000 deposit would be the way to go, if you dislike carrying insurance, making verification by the MHP very easy and eliminating any need for the state to go poking around in one's finances.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 8:01 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HTC: Forgive me - what I meant to say was that it was a no-brainer for a conservative; of course, it's much more difficult for a hand-wringing, risk-averse liberal.
            ---------
            Except the fact that Don Rumsfeld got all chickenshltted and aborted a similar mission in 2005.


             
          • Pete posted at 7:50 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            It is interesting to hear the "war on women" talking points trying to be revived by our resident libs...I thought that mantra had run its course a couple of months ago. It is particularly puzzling considering the policy effects on all persons regardless of sex, orientation, political views, etc....As if women aren't roughly half the population. Is Obama's energy policy not a "war on women" ? Is high unemployment not a "war on women" ? How about high taxes? Last I checked, 50% of aborted children are females as well...is that not a "war on women" ? I could go on and on.

            It seems pretty disengenuous to ignore the impact that Obama's policy decisions have had on women...it's almost as if women don't drive, work, pay taxes, etc. etc. Now who's mindset is archaic?

            Rob says he doesn't want to be "dragged along"....give me a breakl....you and other supporters of Obama's socialist agenda are the ones doing the dragging...right over the cliff. You say the Republicans have declared a war on women? I'll raise you one and say that the Democrats have declared a war on all of us. Of course that idea appeals to the "fairness" and "shared sacrifice" narrative of the liberal mindset so I expect they're just fine with that....as long as we all go down together.

            I will let Kohana speak to Obama's policies re: the spread of fundamental Islam and the impact that is having on women world-wide - as I'm sure she is more equipped to do so. Talk about a "war on women"...Islamo-fascism is the real thing, not some liberal talking-point-of-the-week designed to gin up political support from those eager to view themselves as victims.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:39 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            JBStone: "Please list specifically those "rights" delineated for women only in the Constitution.............???"

            I know it's early, but what year is it? And what year was the Constitution written? And how were women viewed during the writing of the Constitution? Heck, how was anyone without a set of B---s and Clear Title on Land viewed? Dust off your Herstory books.

            I know, I know, "I want to go Baaaaaaaack.". Go ahead, but you're not dragging me along.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:13 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            HTC: "And why should I rant against the insurance verification system? Anything which aids enforcement of financial responsibility laws is consistent with a stand against the nanny state because the 30% who go to the ER without insurance have dramatically driven up insurance costs for the rest of us, cause a disproportionate share of expenses and leave many of their family members with little or no medical care for their preventable sickness(s) because of the difference between Universal Coverage for those resulting medical costs and non-insured/no pay ER visits after one becomes Sick unto Death."

            Good response. I agree!

            However, I can see a problem with certain folks of the monied class who are Self Insured, and like totally surprised when the Patrol Officer looks at their Self Insurance Card, after being pulled over, and then accesses you and your attorneys computer to make sure your Self Insured Amounts are safely tucked away in an Interest Bearing Account with absolutely no liens or promises hindering it's status. And when the MHP Officer mumbles under his breath "Man, you own a lot of stuff! Your balance sheet is a nightmare." you just might feel a little unnerved? Although the Silicon Valley Computer Scientist lurking inside of you would probably wonder who wrote that Search Engine Program and sold it to the MHP, and for How Much?

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 4:09 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco posted at 12:23 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Please list specifically those "rights" delineated for women only in the Constitution.............???

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:23 am on Thu, May 3, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: There's no "war on women"
            --------------------
            Hah hah ahhhahhahaha! Hahhaha, cough, hahahaha!
            30 bills against women's rights proposed by Republicans......
            Hahahahahahhaahhahahaha!

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 11:56 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            HighTechCowboy posted at 7:53 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            HTC: Those who don't yet acknowledge that Obama is a bigoted, hypocritical, classless jerk are hopeless and will not have their eyes opened by any amount of evidence.

            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:04 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.
            HTC: You're really not very good at this; in fact, I can't see where you've ever added anything other than criticism and sarcasm.

            Criticism, and sarcasm? Bitter much?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:59 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: Funny how silent the Right gets here in this room whenever those issues are brought up.

            HTC: There's nothing 'funny' about it. They're just smart enough to know that if they responded to every asinine notion you and others get, they'd have time for nothing else.

            There's no "war on women", only a war on the Constitution and the rule of law by the left and sometimes by the right. You and your buddies' shared hallucinations are laughable.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:56 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rebel Rouser posted at 11:41 am on Wed, May 2, 2012

            HTC: Even most of my liberal friends in CA know what a joke Barbara Boxer is and would never quote her. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume a temporary lapse in judgment on your part.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:53 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            kohana posted at 10:48 am on Wed, May 2, 2012

            HTC: Those who don't yet acknowledge that Obama is a bigoted, hypocritical, classless jerk are hopeless and will not have their eyes opened by any amount of evidence.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:47 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            jennydoe: Far from the no-brainer that Romney depicts, the secret, high-level discussions leading up to the raid were fraught with intense debate and uncertainty—

            HTC: Forgive me - what I meant to say was that it was a no-brainer for a conservative; of course, it's much more difficult for a hand-wringing, risk-averse liberal.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:45 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rob123: This 'should' warrant a HUGE rant from HTC and other pseudo-libertarians, assuming they are consistent with their past rhetoric concerning the Nanny State?

            HTC: "Pseudo-libertarian"? And what, pray tell, Dear Tweedledum, makes me a "pseudo" libertarian?

            And why should I rant against the insurance verification system? Anything which aids enforcement of financial responsibility laws is consistent with a stand against the nanny state because the 30% who drive without insurance have dramatically driven up insurance costs for the rest of us, cause a disproportionate share of accidents and leave many of their victims with little or no medical care for their injuries because of the difference between at-fault liability for those resulting medical costs and UM-type medical coverage on the victim's policy.

            Driving is a privilege, NOT a right. When one gets a license, one agrees to meet the financial responsibilities which go with it. I'd like to see MT get much tougher on UI motorists, as California has finally done, where you lose your vehicle and eventually your freedom.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 5:30 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            JEB - RR: Ease up on the doobies, Bro
            --------
            DUDE!!! You're the one who posted at 420.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 4:20 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            RR: Ease up on the doobies, Bro.

             
          • kohana posted at 4:17 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            RR: I am a woman, an old one, and have been around for a long, long time. I was around before there was birth control available for all, when Roe vs Wade was put in, and am now seeing partical birth abortion which is sickening. Women should have the right to choose what to do with their bodies but shouldn't wait until the last d@mn minute thus killing a child that could live on it's own.

            I do not agree with the religious right, I agree less with the Marxist left. Obama will be the one turning us over to Sharia law, not Romney. He would prefer if we all joined his church and became gods of our own little worlds. Maybe by 2016 we will have a president worth having, one the world will respect. However a second term with Obama will make that nigh impossible.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 3:09 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1563

            Kohana, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you are a woman. If I am right, you better look very carefully at what the right wing politicians have in store for you and all women in America. A step backwards does not even come close to what they will do if they get the, (as they say) "donkey by the b@LLs".

            Women (and many men) have come way too far, and fought way too hard, to just lie down and play dead, while right wing, religious, Republicans, whittle away at the very rights you have grown to enjoy. Sharia law anyone?

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 1:04 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Yale and the ACA

            Michael S. Greve / Jack Balkin, Living Originalism Conference, Yale Law School

            Yale Law School just held a Conference on Jack Balkin’s Living Originalism, a darn good book that merits careful reading and engagement. Jack—the most spirited, generous, smartest, funnest guy you can hope to meet in a habitually dorky profession—assembled the entire Yale School of Constitutional Theory, plus a large segment of the journalistic commentariat. Along with Judge Michael McConnell, I had the pleasure of serving (in the words of one participant) as the shabbos goy.

            It was a real pleasure, but I did feel tempted more than once to switch off the lights. It is impossible to convey the constitutional establishment’s near-clinical obsession with, and hysteria over, the possible invalidation of the ACA’s individual mandate. It would, they say, amount to an unconscionable act of aggression on the democratic process. A reversal of the New Deal and a resurrection of the ancien régime of the Second Republic. A judicial coup d’état. The Constitution in Exile. (Never mind that the plaintiffs’ briefs explicitly affirm that Wickard was rightly decided.) Much handwringing arose over the elite media’s commitment to be fair to both sides even when, as here, there is no reasonable other side. The plaintiffs’ briefs are beneath contempt. Randy Barnett is a creature of The New York Times and its addiction to a false neutrality.

            Two points about the hyperventilation:

            (1) Jack Balkin’s theory goes something like this: the Constitution and especially its more open-ended clauses require construction. The way that happens is that social movements move “off the wall” propositions “on the wall”—that is, suitable for judicial ratification. Whatever the normative attractions of this view, it’s a good description of the entrenchment of liberal positions of equal protection, abortion, and gay marriage—in fact, the full range of liberal commitments. But that’s not good enough for progressives. For them, the process must be irreversible and exclusive: conservatives can’t have respectable social movements, and their ideas must remain off the wall. That’s not Jack Balkin’s position (he explicitly rejects it), and so his friends have no more use for his living originalism than for any other kind (except maybe Bruce Ackerman’s, but that’s another story). The ACA presents the difficulty in neon lights: just as Living Originalism appears in print, a handful of libertarian nutjobs paint the broccoli argument on the wall and half the country (at least) seems to believe them. Small wonder Jack Balkin is getting a lot of liberal pushback.

            (2) The Yale School’s apoplexy is in no way driven by a fear that the Court might ding the entire ACA (Medicaid, exchanges, and all): to its denizens, the individual mandate is the ACA. That seems odd. Candidate Obama campaigned against the mandate. The mandate is a very small piece of a very large statute, and it is easily replaceable with, say, a tax. (Most progressives say it is a tax, except in a different form. Well then, re-enact it in the right form.) And the mandate was inserted in the ACA for one reason only—to buy the support of the insurance industry. A progressivism that can no longer tell the difference between a principled commitment and a give-away to special-interest hucksters has some explaining to do, not least to itself.

            Me, I can explain it only this way: the resistance is to the very notion of any limit, qua limit. This is why progressivism always exceeds its own reach. You can’t just defend abortion as a constitutional right; you have to defend partial birth abortions. You can’t just defend equal rights for women; you have to insist that spousal abuse is a federal hate crime. You can’t just advocate campaign finance regulation and disclosure; you have to insist that the Federal Election Commission can ban books and movies.

            I don’t think that my friends at Yale actually believe any of these positions. (They hold many false beliefs, but they are not insane.) Nor can they seriously believe that, but for their extravagant positions, we would hand over the country to Opus Dei, bind our wives’ and daughters’ feet, allow George Soros or David Koch to buy their very own Congressmen, or for that matter toss ailing widows and orphans into the streets. The real fear is that the Constitution might pose some limit to progressivism’s anything-goes imagination.

            http://libertylawsite.org/2012/04/30/yale-and-the-aca/

            One could argue that the Constitution was enacted for precisely that purpose.

             
          • kohana posted at 1:04 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Thank you laker1, I posted the link to Seraphic Press. Better a day late than not at all.

            RR: Barbara Boxer is a sorry disappointment to us ex-80s and 90s liberals, and if I were back in CA, I'd be doing my best to vote her, and the rest of her ilk out. They have all become old time hogs slopping at the trough. The Reps and middle of the road do not have a war on women, a totally false political market cr@p. Because BB says so doesn't make it so. And most of us are silent because we are tired to arguing to a dead end wall.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 1:02 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Kohana:

            http://minx.cc/?post=328906

             
          • laker1 posted at 12:31 pm on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            laker1 Posts: 110

            kohana:

            http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/05/02/3094491/obama-calls-netanyahu-to-express-condolences

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:52 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Rebel Rouser posted at 11:41 am
            ----------------
            Funny how silent the Right gets here in this room whenever those issues are brought up. It's like, "We want Obama out so badly, so desperate are we, that we will support anything the Republicans come up with, no matter how absurd, no matter how many steps backwards we have to take!"

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 11:41 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1563

            By SEN. BARBARA BOXER | 4/15/12 8:03 AM EDT

            Suppose it’s the championship basketball game and one player is committing foul after foul. Each time, he denies he’s committed any offense.

            Eventually, he fouls out. But even as he heads to the bench, he’s protesting that he did nothing wrong.

            That’s what we’re seeing today from Republicans who claim there is no “war on women.” The Republican National Committee chairman likened it to a “war on caterpillars.” The Senate Republican leader claims it’s all manufactured – even as female members of his caucus warn about the growing backlash against the GOP from women.

            But whether it’s sports or politics, denials don’t change the facts. So let’s look at them.

            House Republicans have introduced more than 30 bills that would restrict a woman’s reproductive health care. Those same Republicans, who decry an all-too-powerful government, have no problem deciding what health care is right for our daughters, or sisters or mothers.

            Legislators in 39 states have introduced almost 500 measures that tell women what type of health care they can or cannot have. Republicans introduced roughly 90 percent of these measures.

            Here in Congress, 116 Republicans in the House and 19 Republicans in the Senate are co-sponsors of “personhood” legislation, which would criminalize abortion with no exceptions for the mother’s life or health. The bill could also outlaw in vitro fertilization and many common forms of birth control. It could even bar doctors from providing life-saving care to women with dangerous ectopic pregnancies.

            The Republican governor of Wisconsin recently signed a law passed by Republicans to repeal the state’s Equal Pay Enforcement Act, which protected women’s equality in the workplace.

            While Republican Mitt Romney’s campaign had to “get back” to a reporter last week on whether the candidate supported equal pay for equal work, President Barack Obama signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act as his first bill. In the Senate, we passed that bill with 56 Democrats, while 36 Republicans voted no.

            Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/75143.html#ixzz1tjdH3ecs

             
          • kohana posted at 11:20 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco, that Mr. Diety was delightful! I've never heard of him before and there are lot of You Tube clips of him.Think I'll spend the day laughing instead of moaning about the state of our government.

            JBStone, "Interesting piece. Read the whole thing, but here's the nut of it:"

            Can you provide an URL? Would like to read the whole thing.

             
          • kohana posted at 10:48 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            http://www.seraphicpress.com/#en
            Robert J. Avrech, Los Angeles CA

            Yesterday, Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu’s father, eminent historian Benzion Netanyahu, 102, was buried in Jerusalem. Bibi delivered a beautiful eulogy.

            Mitt Romney extended his condolences to the Jewish prime minister.
            Romney called the Israeli prime minister his “friend” in his statement. The two men have been friends for years, and their relationship was forged in the 1970s when they were young up-and-comers sizing up companies for the Boston Consulting Group.
            “This is a loss for all of Israel and for all who care about Israel,” Romney said about the elder Netanyahu’s death.

            But from Barack Obama there is a resounding silence.
            Liberal and progressive defenders of President Obama will claim that there is no significance to this diplomatic oversight, that supporters of Israel are being oversensitive and, y’know, pushy. But consider this: when Turkish Prime Minister (and confirmed Jew-hater) Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s mother passed away in October 2011, among the heads of state who sent their condolences was President Barack Obama.

            Read the rest ….. http://www.seraphicpress.com/#en

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:37 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33FiGsjqag&feature=relmfu

            Torture is never love.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:31 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            From another Forum......

            Big Picture: The Left Is Freaking Out That ObamaCare Might Be Invalidated Because Their Dreams Require Massively Empowered Government

            Interesting piece. Read the whole thing, but here's the nut of it.

            Observing an author (Jack Balkin) discuss his book (Living Originalism) at Yale Law School, the faculty went Full Squatch.

            It is impossible to convey the constitutional establishment’s near-clinical obsession with, and hysteria over, the possible invalidation of the ACA’s individual mandate. It would, they say, amount to an unconscionable act of aggression on the democratic process. A reversal of the New Deal and a resurrection of the ancien régime of the Second Republic. A judicial coup d’état. The Constitution in Exile... Much handwringing arose over the elite media’s commitment to be fair to both sides even when, as here, there is no reasonable other side. The plaintiffs’ briefs are beneath contempt. Randy Barnett is a creature of The New York Times and its addiction to a false neutrality...

            Me, I can explain it only this way: the resistance is to the very notion of any limit, qua limit. This is why progressivism always exceeds its own reach. You can’t just defend abortion as a constitutional right; you have to defend partial birth abortions. You can’t just defend equal rights for women; you have to insist that spousal abuse is a federal hate crime. You can’t just advocate campaign finance regulation and disclosure; you have to insist that the Federal Election Commission can ban books and movies.

            I don’t think that my friends at Yale actually believe any of these positions. (They hold many false beliefs, but they are not insane.) Nor can they seriously believe that, but for their extravagant positions, we would hand over the country to Opus Dei, bind our wives’ and daughters’ feet, allow George Soros or David Koch to buy their very own Congressmen, or for that matter toss ailing widows and orphans into the streets. The real fear is that the Constitution might pose some limit to progressivism’s anything-goes imagination.

            One could argue that the Constitution was enacted for precisely that purpose.

            Which is why they must recreate it to serve their true purposes.

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:40 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Look, jennydoe, don't introduce stuff that undermines HTC's opinions. He'll only tell us how ignorant you are.


            "One Galileo in two thousand years is enough."
            -- Pope Pius XII

             
          • jennydoe posted at 9:06 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HTC - however, it was a no-brainer
            -------------
            .....Far from the no-brainer that Romney depicts, the secret, high-level discussions leading up to the raid were fraught with intense debate and uncertainty—and Obama’s final decisions, on both whether and how to attack, went against some of his top advisers’ recommendations..........

            http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2012/05/barack_obama_s_decision_to_go_after_osama_bin_laden_how_the_president_overruled_his_advisers_in_ordering_the_assassination.html?wpisrc=obinsite

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:15 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HTC - Obama risked next to nothing compared to what Bush risked and endured by using tactics which a certain wimp now in the White House continues to decry. Now that the intel gathered using those methods has successfully ended Osama's life, Obama is taking all of the credit, including that which most especially belongs to Seal Team Six.
            --------
            Please allow Jon to refresh your memory:

            http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-may-1-2012/victory-lapse---the-anniversary-of-osama-bin-laden-s-death

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:02 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            “It’s an issue of fairness,” Tooley said.
            "The 2009 Legislature passed the law creating the system."

            Read more: http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/montana-highway-patrol-troopers-get-instant-insurance-verification-system/article_4d3842c8-93e4-11e1-b76f-001a4bcf887a.html#ixzz1ti0dtsWt

            This 'should' warrant a HUGE rant from HTC and other pseudo-libertarians, assuming they are consistent with their past rhetoric concerning the Nanny State?

            "Montana Highway Patrol troopers get instant insurance verification system".

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:34 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            who new posted at 12:14 am

            Good post.....especially " Perhaps they had received enough condescension in their many years of education.".

            Now, if the Byrds had played at my H.S.Graduation, with their new and modern sound, I would have been all smiles and very attentive while using very modern words like "Far Out" and "Right On!"!
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoSwOrytf_M

             
          • who new posted at 12:14 am on Wed, May 2, 2012.

            who new Posts: 367

            Re: Pat Boone speaking at a college commencement –

            Many years ago, Tom Brokaw was the guest speaker at a chamber of commerce dinner. After ranting on about corporate greed and the like, the audience gave him a subdued, polite applause. Very restrained compared to the rousing, boisterous applause to the announcement of the Great Chief that year.

            The chamber may have learned something in choosing speakers to their membership. While Brokaw was able to relate some interesting incidents from many years of reporting, the general condescending tone of his speech to a largely business related audience lost much of that interest.

            Given what Frank describes, I suspect the students felt Pat Boone wouldn’t convey the kind of inspiration they want to hear on one of the most significant days of their lives. Who wants to hear about what is wrong with homosexual protesters on the day you graduate and are eagerly anticipating your new career? I could see that as being considered “inflammatory kinds of rhetoric”.

            By this reasoning, I don’t agree the students were implying the notion -“where even acknowledging God has become an invitation to scorn and ridicule in certain circles” is the issue. Perhaps they had received enough condescension in their many years of education.

            To tell the truth, I wouldn’t have invited him simply because he is too boring.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 8:47 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            HTC: You're really not very good at this; in fact, I can't see where you've ever added anything other than criticism and sarcasm.

            Sorry for my inner Stone.

            Obama risked next to nothing compared to what Bush risked and endured by using tactics which a certain wimp now in the White House continues to decry.

            Endured? Really?

            Why can't YOU acknowledge Obama for the generally underachieving, teleprompter-reading, consummate narcissist that he is?

            Um, I have.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:04 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Independentthinkermt: Well, didn't he. You can't even give him ANY credit, can you, libertarian?

            HTC: You're really not very good at this; in fact, I can't see where you've ever added anything other than criticism and sarcasm.

            I have and continue to give him credit for OK'ing the mission which got Osama; however, it was a no-brainer since the intel was pretty solid and the road to that successful conclusion was paved by Bush's people who did use waterboarding to develop the leads which lead to Osama.

            Obama risked next to nothing compared to what Bush risked and endured by using tactics which a certain wimp now in the White House continues to decry. Now that the intel gathered using those methods has successfully ended Osama's life, Obama is taking all of the credit, including that which most especially belongs to Seal Team Six.

            Why can't YOU acknowledge Obama for the generally underachieving, teleprompter-reading, consummate narcissist that he is?

             
          • kohana posted at 6:19 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Actually Rebel Rouser, I am not a Xian, I am an atheist, and much to most theist's dismay actually have a code of ethics by which I abide.

            Are you saying the opposite with little girls is a better option? Sex with children in any form or manner should be a capital crime. What goes on between consensual adults is their own d@mn business. Children have been victimized in all types of schools.

            My children were taught very early, that if anyone touched any part of them covered by their undies to tell mommie at once. Also, not to let anyone frighten them into not telling. However, religious schools have other insidious ways of harming a child's mind if not their bodies.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:14 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Rob:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYaXctqNZcc&feature=fvst

             
          • Bronco posted at 4:58 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            http://textfromdog.tumblr.com/

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 4:43 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            JBSTONE posted at 4:29 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt posted at 4:33 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.
            Actually, I hadn't.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 4:38 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            Yup. Um, believe it or not, I knew that. What are ya saying?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:32 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            From : The White House
            Subject : WATCH: President Obama in Afghanistan at 7:30 p.m. EDT

            P.S. 7:30 p.m. EDT is 5:30 p.m. MDT for the knot-heads and lightly informed........

            http://blahbethany.com/2012/02/11/underwater-photos-of-dogs-playing-fetch-so-cute/

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 4:29 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Independentthinkermt posted at 4:33 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            LYRICS

            Johnny's in the basement
            Mixing up the medicine
            I'm on the pavement
            Thinking about the government
            The man in the trench coat
            Badge out, laid off
            Says he's got a bad cough
            Wants to get it paid off
            Look out kid
            It's somethin' you did
            God knows when
            But you're doin' it again
            You better duck down the alley way
            Lookin' for a new friend
            The man in the coonskin cap
            In the big pen
            Wants eleven dollar bills
            You only got ten

            Maggie comes fleet foot
            Face full of black soot
            Talkin' that the heat put
            Plants in the bed but
            The phone's tapped anyway
            Maggie says that many say
            They must bust in early May
            Orders from the D. A.
            Look out kid
            Don't matter what you did
            Walk on your tip toes
            Don't try "No Doz"
            Better stay away from those
            That carry around a fire hose
            Keep a clean nose
            Watch the plain clothes
            You don't need a weather man
            To know which way the wind blows

            Get sick, get well
            Hang around a ink well
            Ring bell, hard to tell
            If anything is goin' to sell
            Try hard, get barred
            Get back, write braille
            Get jailed, jump bail
            Join the army, if you fail
            Look out kid
            You're gonna get hit
            But users, cheaters
            Six-time users
            Hang around the theaters
            Girl by the whirlpool
            Lookin' for a new fool
            Don't follow leaders
            Watch the parkin' meters

            Ah get born, keep warm
            Short pants, romance, learn to dance
            Get dressed, get blessed
            Try to be a success
            Please her, please him, buy gifts
            Don't steal, don't lift
            Twenty years of schoolin'
            And they put you on the day shift
            Look out kid
            They keep it all hid
            Better jump down a manhole
            Light yourself a candle
            Don't wear sandals
            Try to avoid the scandals
            Don't wanna be a bum
            You better chew gum
            The pump don't work
            'Cause the vandals took the handles

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 4:11 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            HighTechCowboy posted at 3:46 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.
            His statements on Osama's killing stand in stark contrast to Bush...

            Of course they do, Obama can articulate.

            HTC: Actually, Obama didn't even remotely come close to doing that since he gave most of the credit to himself: "I did this; I reasoned that; I ordered this." Just what one would expect from an incredible narcissist.

            Well, didn't he. You can't even give him ANY credit, can you, libertarian?

             
          • Bronco posted at 4:00 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: His statements on Osama's killing stand in stark contrast to Bush, who always gave the credit to the people who actually did the job.
            ------------------------------------
            The Decider?

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:59 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            kohana posted at 1:40 pm
            -------------------------
            Yet it is still used to justify intolerance and hatred. Hmmmm.....new Xian standards? Let's just make stuff up as we go along.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:46 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            JBSTONE: "The only thing required to benefit from association with the killing of the most hated man in the nation is to be magnanimous about the whole affair – smile broadly, downplay your own role with a wink and congratulate the brave men who did the job.

            Obama almost managed to do that...."

            HTC: Actually, Obama didn't even remotely come close to doing that since he gave most of the credit to himself: "I did this; I reasoned that; I ordered this." Just what one would expect from an incredible narcissist.

            His statements on Osama's killing stand in stark contrast to Bush, who always gave the credit to the people who actually did the job.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 3:16 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            kohana posted at 1:40 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.
            One of the BIG TEN they kept was "to not bear false witness" but all the Xians do it, some worse than others, especially our medias.

            Agreed. Pat Robertson, especially.

             
          • kohana posted at 1:40 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco, is your memory beginning to fail? I already told you last week most of the rules in Leviticus were tossed out at least 2,000 years ago, only the ones the Xians kept are now valid to Xians. One of the BIG TEN they kept was "to not bear false witness" but all the Xians do it, some worse than others, especially our medias.

             
          • kohana posted at 1:35 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            A must reading for all Obama and ex-Obama fans, even conservatives, it’ll give you a good laugh, especially the comments. Well, maybe not the Obama fans, it might show them how ridiculous and ignorant he is.

            http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/05/01/campaign-cliche-alert-obama-is-like-a-steel-trap/

             
          • WEH posted at 1:28 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            WEH Posts: 12

            Boone & Presley both sucked. Yardbirds rule!

             
          • Pete posted at 1:24 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco posted at 12:45 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012

            Preach it brother.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:45 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Pete: Discussing spirituality (Leviticus) with you is akin to talking with Carrie Nation about the finer points of whiskey...I'll pass.
            ---------------------
            I see. Which one of these 'spiritual' issues would you care to discuss?

            Unclean animals
            Uncleanness caused by childbirth
            Unclean diseases
            Cleansing of diseases
            Uncleanliness and its treatment
            Unclean discharges
            Purification of the tabernacle from uncleanness
            Sacrifice and food
            Sexual behavior
            Rules for priests
            Rules for eating sacrifices
            Festivals
            or blessings and curses?

            You can't pick and choose which laws are just today based on your personal beliefs. gGod's Word don't work that way. hHe was very adamant about that...threat of death, sometimes for generations.

            Here are some facts that may get in your way:


            http://ashraf62.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/in-ancient-egypt-canaan-revisited-without-israel/

             
          • Pete posted at 12:02 pm on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco posted at 10:57 am on Tue, May 1, 2012

            "BTW, Leviticus comes up short on values and morals. Very little to live by in that book you are trying to defend."

            Discussing spirituality with you is akin to talking with Carrie Nation about the finer points of whiskey...I'll pass.

            "....you'll be mistaken for a real human being."

            They'll only make it once....then it's hasta la vista baby.


             
          • Bronco posted at 11:00 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Pete: Nuff said - move on.
            -------------------
            You're out of lockstep. Cease this analytical thinking and get back in line or you'll be mistaken for a real human being.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:57 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Pete: The antithesis of Pat Boone - now I know where Bronco gets his talking points...and manners.
            -------------------------
            Now here's a guy with two moms who has more values than most..

            http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-30-2012/zach-wahls

            BTW, Leviticus comes up short on values and morals. Very little to live by in that book you are trying to defend.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:53 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            Pete: ".....how do you keep a straight face? Clown."

            Who said I have a straight face? Heck, with botox injections, I have a smile that would be the envy of most Hollywood Game Show hosts.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:39 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            ***Obama Suffers From Early Onset Romney Derangement Syndrome***

            By Chris Stirewalt

            Power Play

            Published May 01, 2012
            FoxNews.com

            “It’s just what you expect from a guy who had a Swiss Bank Account.”

            -- New television ad from President Obama attacking Mitt Romney for, among other things, closing factories while he was CEO of Bain Capital.

            A central conceit of the media narrative in Washington is that President Obama and his political advisers are political geniuses.

            But if that’s so, how is it possible that they have mucked up what should have been one of the president’s best days of the campaign, the anniversary of the Special Forces raid that killed Usama bin Laden?

            Romney is a maddening opponent because he hits hard, stays religiously on message and never, ever winks. While other candidates let reporters and political operatives in on the joke – that they don’t really believe the attacks they are launching – Romney stays straight-faced the whole time. It makes people crazy.

            -

            The only thing required to benefit from association with the killing of the most hated man in the nation is to be magnanimous about the whole affair – smile broadly, downplay your own role with a wink and congratulate the brave men who did the job.

            Obama almost managed to do that, but his campaign couldn’t resist going negative. In what would have otherwise been a powerful video of former President Bill Clinton marveling at Obama’s cool-headed decision making, the campaign added an attack on the Republican nominee wondering whether he would have had the courage to allow the SEALs to kill the mastermind of 9/11.

            Vice President Joe Biden repeated the charge in the same speech that also included his now infamous gaffe about knowing about Obama’s “big stick,” saying that Romney might have let bin Laden live.

            This gave Romney a chance to say that, “of course” he would have let the SEALs go in, but also to downplay Obama’s role in the decision. Had Obama resisted the urge to attack, Romney would have had to spend several days praising the president’s decision. But having been called cowardly, Romney is free to push back and degrade Obama’s role. Rather than quietly letting his bin Laden legend grow, Obama prompted unhappy questions.

            Worse, making a nakedly partisan attack surrounding the best military moment in a long time looks grubby and un-presidential. It makes the other things Obama is doing to capitalize on the killing – nuzzling Brian Williams in the Situation Room, etc. – go from eyebrow raising to just plain yucky.

            If Obama is such a cool character, why is he getting so wee-weed up over Mitt Romney?

            Romney has driven several of his political opponents to distraction over the years. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich acknowledged that he lost his head when he launched heavy-handed attacks on Romney ahead of the Florida Republican primary. The same thing was true of all of the other Not Romneys of this cycle. Romney made them mad with his swipes on them, and then they flailed in their attacks on him. It was true of Romney’s 2008 rivals, too.

            Romney is a maddening opponent because he hits hard, stays religiously on message and never, ever winks. While other candidates let reporters and political operatives in on the joke – that they don’t really believe the attacks they are launching – Romney stays straight-faced the whole time. It makes people crazy.

            Add Obama to that list. Not only did he soil the bin Laden anniversary, but his campaign has already turned into a negative, paranoid-sounding operation. Granted, Romney is doing better than previous challengers to incumbent presidents by already being in a dead heat with Obama, but there are two dozen weeks to go. Now is not the time to lose one’s cool.

            When Obama snapped back at Romney in a bilateral press conference with the prime minister of Japan you got a sense of just how much Romney annoys Obama.

            But it’s also evident in the new ad the president’s campaign has launched in swing state Virginia ahead of campaign visits by both Romney and Obama this week. The spot revisits all of the same attacks Gingrich launched against Romney ahead of the former speaker’s Florida implosion.

            The spot, which opens with Obama’s voice, is the kind of blast that you would expect to see post-convention, a kitchen-sink attack on Romney’s business record and the outsourcing of jobs. Obama may believe that he is going to render Romney unelectable, but such attacks always hurt the attacker too. In such a close race, Obama is taking a risk to swing so hard, so early.

            The ad also continues Obama’s fixation on Romney’s well-heel supporters, saying that Big Oil is behind ads critical of the president’s record on energy. This echoes an effort by Obama to single out Romney’s political donors by name, thereby raising their target value to enthusiastic federal regulators.

            It’s never a strong move for the most powerful man in the world to be talking about a conspiracy against him. Obama surely believes it is true, but it looks small and scared, not big and confident.

            While one might expect Obama to eventually succumb to the same Romney Derangement Syndrome that has afflicted so many before, Democrats should worry that the disease has taken hold so early in the process. If Romney is under Obama’s skin now, just think what it will be like in August.

            Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/05/01/obama-suffers-from-early-onset-romney-derangement-syndrome/#ixzz1tdXn6Ncq

             
          • Pete posted at 9:33 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            jennydoe posted at 9:00 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            I agree the Republican response is ridiculous...especially given the ridiculous nature of the ad. I thought Romney actually gave the best response...."“Even Jimmy Carter would have given that order.” Nuff said - move on.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:14 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Progressive Portland, OR forces redistribution of the wealth by cab and limo services:

            http://tinyurl.com/75mwflw

             
          • Pete posted at 9:06 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Independentthinkermt posted at 3:36 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012

            Back then "indoctrination" wasn't subsidized by a government that has now (with few exceptions - most notably "religious" institutions) monopolized education and neatly created a dependent class of citizenry that view government as the answer to all problems and thus provide the STATE a dependable base of support.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 9:00 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            Obama’s Osama bin Laden Ad Is a Well-Played Attack
            by Michelle Cottle May 1, 2012 4:45 AM EDT
            The president’s new ad trumpeting bin Laden’s killing may well politicize national security, as the GOP complains. But Obama’s just taking a page from a playbook the Republicans have trusted since 2001, says Michelle Cottle.
            Osama bin Laden has been dead a year, Team Obama has made a campaign ad touting the president’s ballsiness in ordering the kill, and suddenly everyone from John McCain to Arianna Huffington is going batshlt.

            It was hardly surprising that members of Team Romney found the ad objectionable, as it blatantly suggests the governor would have responded differently. Romney’s foreign-policy advisers have proclaimed themselves “saddened” by the president’s “unbecoming” conduct, while longtime GOP über-operative Ed Gillespie asserts that the ad proves Obama is “one of the most divisive presidents in American history.”

            McCain, meanwhile, slipped on his serious statesman’s jacket to scold, “Shame on Barack Obama for diminishing the memory of September 11th and the killing of Osama bin Laden by turning it into a cheap political attack ad.”

            The most flamboyant shot, however, came from the left, as Huffington denounced the ad as “one of the most despicable things you can do.”

            Really, Arianna? One of the most despicable? That’s a mighty bold statement, and it suggests a severe lack of imagination. But if that’s how you really feel, allow me to retort.

            Boo hoo hoo.

            Obama has made an attack ad. A tough one. One that suggests Governor Romney doesn’t have the right stuff to cope with the very dangerous world we live in. An attack that arguably—gasp!—politicizes national security.

            Oh my God. The nerve. You know who this puts Obama on par with? Every fricking Republican who has run for office since 2001. Oh, yeah, and Hillary Clinton, whose infamous 3 a.m. phone-call ad from 2008 is being revisited in the wake of Obama’s new one.

            Let us take a brief stroll down memory lane to the 2004 Republican Convention. The not-so-subtle theme: vote for John Kerry and al Qaeda will invade your homes and eat your children. This is only a slight exaggeration. Dick Cheney hasn’t uttered a word in the past decade that didn’t raise the specter of terrorists at the door. And Rudy Giuliani? Joe Biden said it best when he noted that for a long stretch, every sentence that came out of Hizzoner’s mouth consisted of “a noun, a verb, and 9/11.”

            Going even further back, who can forget President Bush’s much-ridiculed, flight-suity “Mission Accomplished” speech on May 1, 2003, from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln? But you know one of the main reasons that photo op was so widely ridiculed? It was bollocks. The “mission” in Iraq was anything but “accomplished.” Bush was touting an achievement he had not yet even achieved.

            Osama bin Laden, by contrast, is very, very dead.

            Admittedly, this is not common behavior for the Democratic Party, whose candidates usually shy away from politicizing foreign policy. Why? Well, in part because they usually screw up any and all efforts to campaign on it. (See: Kerry, John, 2004.)

            Fair or not, the knock on the “Mommy Party” is that it is too weak and indecisive to handle the hard-bitten arena of foreign affairs. In your typical election, the Dems’ goal is to turn discussion in the more nurturing direction of domestic issues. Indeed, it feels downright through-the-looking-glass for a Democratic contender to find himself, as Obama now does, being the one voters trust, by double digits over the Republican, to handle international affairs.

            Despite this, Romney has been swinging at the president’s international cred of late. The governor has suggested he would be tougher than Obama on everyone from China to Iran, while his foreign-policy adviser Richard Williamson has flat out accused Obama of “naiveté and fecklessness.”

            Those sound like fighting words to me.

            In her denunciation of Obama, Huffington links the new ad to Hillary’s 3 a.m. one, which, though harsh, was considered pretty compelling at the time. So compelling, indeed, that you know who repurposed parts of it for the general election? Yep, John McCain. In late August, the Republican nominee took chunks of Hillary’s ad and her criticisms of Obama’s foreign-policy inexperience; mashed them up with scary footage of tanks, missiles, and armed Islamists; and tied it all up with the closing message “Hillary’s right.”


            So you’ll have to excuse me if I find McCain’s shock and outrage a smidge hollow.

            As for Arianna, maybe the notion of Obama as a real politician—as opposed to some above-the-fray hopey-changey transformational post-partisan savior—has broken her idealistic heart. I’m sure there were plenty of people out there in 2008 who believed Obama would upend the politics as usual of Washington—that he would somehow get congressional Republicans to come to the bargaining table in a spirit of respectful cooperation and sensible compromise. I suspect some of them also cling to the belief that candy-colored unicorns will ultimately gallop in to save the day.

            Is Team Obama’s ad a political punch to Romney’s magnificently chiseled jaw? Of course it is. It is harsh, exploitative, tacky even.

            It is, in short, perfectly in keeping with today’s political climate.

            A couple of weeks after Obama’s 2008 victory, then-House Financial Services chairman Barney Frank grumped to me that the president elect’s can’t-we-all-get-along message gave him “post-partisan depression” and predicted the GOP would quickly “dis-post-partisan” Obama.

            Hardly seems sportsmanlike for Republicans to be complaining about their success in this matter.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:58 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            When those supposedly campaigning against bullying become the bully:

            Jake Naman knew something was about to happen.

            The 18-year-old from Redlands, Calif., was sitting inside a cavernous building in Seattle waiting to hear from Dan Savage, the founder of the “It Gets Better” anti-bullying campaign.

            Savage had been invited to speak to several thousand high school journalists attending a national conference hosted by the National Scholastic Press Association and the Journalism Education Association.
            Naman, who is a yearbook photographer at Arrowhead Christian Academy, thought Savage was going to talk about his anti-bullying campaign. But the Christian teenager soon learned that Savage had a very different message for the students.

            “I hope you’re all using birth control,” Savage told the teenagers as he began his remarks. From there, he regaled the young people who stories about his husband, describing how he looked in a Speedo. At one point, Savage imagined what it would be like with his husband on stage – telling the kids that they would have to pry him off his partner.

            Naman was growing increasingly uncomfortable with the tone and tenor of Savage’s remarks. There were more lewd comments, profane words and innuendo. And then, Savage said something that made Naman take notice.

            http://tinyurl.com/7v53nfz

             
          • Pete posted at 8:44 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 7:09 am on Tue, May 1, 2012

            .....right after you cite CNBC...how do you keep a straight face? Clown.

             
          • Pete posted at 8:40 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            The antithesis of Pat Boone - now I know where Bronco gets his talking points...and manners.

            http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/christian-teens-say-gay-activist-made-girls-cry.html

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 8:19 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            SEALs slam Obama for using them as 'ammunition' in bid to take credit for bin Laden killing during election campaign

            By Toby Harnden

            PUBLISHED: 18:35 EST, 30 April 2012 | UPDATED: 19:34 EST, 30 April 2012


            Serving and former US Navy SEALs have slammed President Barack Obama for taking the credit for killing Osama bin Laden and accused him of using Special Forces operators as ‘ammunition’ for his re-election campaign.

            The SEALs spoke out to MailOnline after the Obama campaign released an ad entitled ‘One Chance’.

            In it President Bill Clinton is featured saying that Mr Obama took ‘the harder and the more honourable path’ in ordering that bin Laden be killed. The words ‘Which path would Mitt Romney have taken?’ are then displayed.

            Besides the ad, the White House is marking the first anniversary of the SEAL Team Six raid that killed bin Laden inside his compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan with a series of briefings and an NBC interview in the Situation Room designed to highlight the ‘gutsy call’ made by the President.

            Scroll down for video
            Taking credit: President Obama has used bin Laden's death as a campaign tool

            Taking credit: President Obama has used bin Laden's death as a campaign tool

            Mr Obama used a news conference today to trumpet his personal role and imply that his Republican opponent Mr Romney, who in 2008 expressed reservations about the wisdom of sending troops into Pakistan, would have let bin Laden live.

            ‘I said that I'd go after bin Laden if we had a clear shot at him, and I did,’ Mr Obama said. ‘If there are others who have said one thing and now suggest they'd do something else, then I'd go ahead and let them explain it.’

            More...

            'Forward' revealed as Obama's new campaign slogan
            Barack Obama's mother 'was secretly in contact with his estranged father during his entire childhood without his knowledge'
            Why 'annoying cuss' Jimmy Carter is the least popular member of the Presidents' Club
            U.S. on alert for terrorists with bombs INSIDE their bodies on eve of anniversary of bin Laden's death

            Ryan Zinke, a former Commander in the US Navy who spent 23 years as a SEAL and led a SEAL Team 6 assault unit, said: ‘The decision was a no brainer. I applaud him for making it but I would not overly pat myself on the back for making the right call.

            ‘I think every president would have done the same. He is justified in saying it was his decision but the preparation, the sacrifice - it was a broader team effort.’

            Mr Zinke, who is now a Republican state senator in Montana, added that MR Obama was exploiting bin Laden’s death for his re-election bid. ‘The President and his administration are positioning him as a war president using the SEALs as ammunition. It was predictable.’
            Target: Bin Laden, pictured in his compound in Pakistan, was killed a year ago

            Target: Bin Laden, pictured in his compound in Pakistan, was killed a year ago
            Mission: Senior figures gathered to watch Navy SEALs invade the compound

            Mission: Senior figures gathered to watch Navy SEALs invade the compound

            Mr Obama has faced criticism even from allies about his decision to make a campaign ad about the bin Laden raid. Arianna Huffington, an outspoken liberal who runs the left-leaning Huffington Post website, roundly condemned it.

            She told CBS: ‘We should celebrate the fact that they did such a great job. It's one thing to have an NBC special from the Situation Room... all that to me is perfectly legitimate, but to turn it into a campaign ad is one of the most despicable things you can do.’

            Campaigning in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Mr Romney responded to a shouted question by a reporter by saying: ‘Even Jimmy Carter would have given that order.’

            A serving SEAL Team member said: ‘Obama wasn’t in the field, at risk, carrying a gun. As president, at every turn he should be thanking the guys who put their lives on the line to do this. He does so in his official speeches because he speechwriters are smart.

            ‘But the more he tries to take the credit for it, the more the ground operators are saying, “Come on, man!” It really didn’t matter who was president. At the end of the day, they were going to go.’

            Chris Kyle, a former SEAL sniper with 160 confirmed and another 95 unconfirmed kills to his credit, said: ‘The operation itself was great and the nation felt immense pride. It was great that we did it.

            ‘But bin Laden was just a figurehead. The war on terror continues. Taking him out didn’t really change anything as far as the war on terror is concerned and using it as a political attack is a cheap shot.

            ‘In years to come there is going to be information that will come out that Obama was not the man who made the call. He can say he did and the people who really know what happened are inside the Pentagon, are in the military and the military isn’t allowed to speak out against the commander- in-chief so his secret is safe.’
            Rival: Mr Obama has questioned whether Mitt Romney would have done the same

            Rival: Mr Obama has questioned whether Mitt Romney would have done the same

            Senior military figures have said that Admiral William McRaven, a former SEAL who was then head of Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) made the decision to take bin Laden out. Tactical decisions were delegated even further down the chain of command.

            Mr Kyle added: ‘He's trying to say that Romney wouldn't have made the same call? Anyone who is patriotic to this country would have made that exact call, Democrat or Republican. Obama is taking more credit than he is due but it's going to get him some pretty good mileage.’

            A former intelligence official who was serving in the US government when bin Laden was killed said that the Obama administration knew about the al-Qaeda leader’s whereabouts in October 2010 but delayed taking action and risked letting him escape.

            ‘In the end, Obama was forced to make a decision and do it. He knew that if he didn’t do it the political risks in not taking action were huge. Mitt Romney would have made the call but he would have made it earlier – as would George W. Bush.’

            Brandon Webb, a former SEAL who spent 13 years on active duty and served in Iraq and Afghanistan, said: ‘Bush should get partial credit for putting the system in place.

            ‘Obama inherited a very robust package with regards to special ops and the intelligence community. But Obama deserves credit because he got bin Laden – you can’t take that away from him.

            ‘My friends that work in Special Operations Command (SOCOM) that have been on video teleconferences with Obama on these kill or capture situations say that Obama has no issue whatsoever with making decisions and typically it's kill. He’s hitting the kill button every time. I have a lot of respect for him for that.’

            But he said that many SEALs were dismayed about the amount of publicity the Obama administration had generated about SEAL Team Six, the very existence of which is highly classified.

            ‘The majority of the SEALs I know are really proud of the operation but it does become “OK, enough is enough – we’re ready to get back to work and step out of the limelight.” They don’t want to be continuously paraded around a global audience like a show dog.

            ‘Obama has a very good relationship with the Special Operations community at large, especially the SEALs, and it’s nice to see. We had the same relationship with George W. Bush when he was president.’

            It was ‘stretching a little much’ for Mr Obama to suggest only he would have made the decision. ‘I personally I don't think Romney would have any problem making tough decisions. He got a very accomplished record of making decision as a business professional.

            ‘He may not have charisma but he clearly has leadership skills. I don’t think he'd have any problem taking that decision.’

            Clint Bruce, who gave up the chance of an NFL career to serve as a SEAL officer before retiring as a lieutenant after nine years, said: ‘We were extremely surprised and discouraged by the publicity because it compromises the ability of those guys to operate.

            ‘It’s a waste of time to speculate about who would and wouldn’t have made that decision. It was a symphony of opportunity and intelligence that allowed this administration to give the green light. We want to acknowledge that they made that decision.

            ‘Politicians should let the public know where they stand on national security but not in the play-by-play, detailed way that has been done recently. The intricacies of national security should not become part of stump speeches.’

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137636/SEALs-slam-Obama-using-ammunition-bid-credit-bin-Laden-killing-election-campaign.html#ixzz1tcxuGjcx

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:12 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Homeland Security is supposed to keep us safe, but who's going to keep HS secure? Besides being unable to mind their own till, there is an interesting story embedded within this one about one ICE employee involved, Ahmed Abdallat, who was the agency's intelligence supervisor in El Paso, Texas. Abdallat, a former colonel in the Jordanian Air Force, joined the agency in 1995 and worked throughout the Middle East, including three years in Saudi Arabia. He had access to classified information and has spirited away more money into Middle Eastern bank accounts than can be explained simply by his participation in the travel expense scam:

            Top ICE figure expected to plead guilty to brazen, $500G scam

            In a brazen criminal scheme to defraud taxpayers, one of the highest-ranking officials in the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency is expected to plead guilty Tuesday in federal court to helping embezzle more than $500,000 from the federal government.

            Over three years, James Woosley and at least five other ICE employees scammed the agency by fabricating expenses for trips that were never taken and for hotel, rental car and restaurant expenses that did not exist, according to court records.

            His son, also named James Woosley, and live-in girlfriend, Lateisha Rollerson -- both ICE employees -- allegedly ran the scam out of the elder Woosley's two Virginia homes.

            http://tinyurl.com/cha8qtw

             
          • kohana posted at 8:04 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            In preparation for the upcoming riots, that Sharpton, Jackson, Wright, and their ilk are promoting, the following article gives a clue how to operate in a riot area. Written with some humor, but deadly serious.

            http://www.seraphicpress.com/flashback-los-angeles-riots-20-years-ago/#more-9180

            Flashback: Los Angeles Riots 20 Years Ago
            ROBERT J. AVRECH: EMMY AWARD WINNING SCREENWRITER

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:49 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Canadians Make a Racket Over Mysterious 'Windsor Hum'
            WSJ | April 30, 2012

            WINDSOR, Ontario—Last month, Bob Dechert, a senior aide to Canada's foreign minister, was dispatched to Detroit with an important diplomatic mission: To stop a highly annoying noise.

            The so-called Windsor hum, described as a low-frequency rumbling sound, has rattled windows and knocked objects off shelves in this border community just across the Detroit River from the Motor City. Locals have said it sounds like a large diesel truck idling, a loud boom box or the bass vocals of Barry White.

            Windsor residents have blamed the hum for causing illness, whipping dogs into frenzies, keeping cats housebound and sending goldfish to the surface in backyard ponds. Many have resorted to switching on their furnace fan all season to drown out the noise.

            Even weirder, Americans can't seem to hear it. Canadians find that suspicious—especially since their research suggests the hum is coming from the Yankees' side—and accuse U.S. officials of staying silent over the noise.

            http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303990604577370182557339816.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:47 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rob123: News Corp. and its founder Rupert Murdoch on Tuesday were accused by U.K. members of Parliament of "willful blindness"....The MPs added that Rupert Murdoch is "not a fit person" to run a major international company.

            HTC: Now, THAT'S really funny coming from UK politicians who've proven themselves unfit to run a country! I doubt I'll hear another joke today to top that one.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:09 am on Tue, May 1, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            CNBC
            News Corp. and its founder Rupert Murdoch on Tuesday were accused by U.K. members of Parliament of "willful blindness" over the extent of phone hacking at the company's British newspapers. The MPs added that Rupert Murdoch is "not a fit person" to run a major international company.

            STORY: http://cnb.cx/It8yd2

            I hope this doesn't reflect badly on his American operation? I mean, where else can folks get a ton of imaginative takes on a depressing scenario? The talking heads at Fox News might have to go back to reporting the news with a semblance of Objectivity? Or change their name to Fox Opinions?

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 5:59 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            JBSTONE posted at 4:14 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            That was actually lifted from Franks column this week. Credit where credit is due, sir.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:24 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMIlP4zB0EM

            Good choice, JB! Bravo......

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:00 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Independentthinkermt posted at 4:33 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Try Subterranean Homesick Blues next time.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 4:33 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            Who's Dylan?

            No, I'm just kidding.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 4:14 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Independentthinkermt posted at 3:06 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012

            Perhaps you could base ALL your posts on lyrics from Dylan songs......???

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 3:36 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            by and large the remainder were founded by religious denominations or individuals who espoused a religious purpose to the education.

            And people complain about indoctrination now? Hmmm?

             
          • jennydoe posted at 3:36 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:03 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.
            --------
            Gee, what a wonderful concept!! har har har so funny - just like everything Adam. After all, we see articles weekly about teacher on student sex. Next thing you know Adam will play a catholic priest, and then probably the father who suduces the babysitter. He is so funny.
            Here is the latest hottie seductress:

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137420/Woman-48-sex-boy-13-TWICE-week-TWO-years.html

            at thirteen, could you resist?

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 3:25 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            When I was growing up in the early 1960s, caught between two worlds at war with each other, you either liked Elvis Presley or Pat Boone, but needless to say, not both.

            Much like todays politics, in my opinion. You're either on one side or the other, not allowed to acknowledge if the "other" side has done anything worthwhile. (Other than lose an election?)

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 3:17 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            Pat Boone on the other hand is still securely stuck exactly where he was 35 years ago, 45 years ago, and 55 years ago —...

            As are most people on his side of the political line.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 3:14 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            thanks pete.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 3:06 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            If a rolling stone gathered no moss, it also had no direction home.

            So, Mitt is lost, and can't find his way home? Maybe if he flip flops enough, he could get lucky enough to make it back, if he doesn't beat himself to death first.

             
          • Pete posted at 2:51 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            jennydoe posted at 2:05 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            "And a liberal arts college affiliated with a church? I'd never thought it."

            You need to know your history then.

            Harvard, Princeton, Yale, William and Mary, Brown, Rutgers, etc., etc., 106 of the first 108 colleges in the U.S. were started through religious affiliation. By 1860 there were roughly 250 colleges in the states and only 17 were State institutions...by and large the remainder were founded by religious denominations or individuals who espoused a religious purpose to the education.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 2:05 pm on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            Simple, he talked about the Constitution, conservative values, the Christian church and keeping America safe for the Founding Fathers
            --------
            If you hadn't explained that it was homosexuality that he had spoken I would have thought...
            the Constitution, good. conservative values, they have them still?, the Christian church, with their dark age views, and keeping America safe for the Founding Fathers. they're dead.
            so I am glad you clarified that with the homosexuality stuff. you go girl.
            And a liberal arts college affiliated with a church? I'd never thought it.
            I guess it would be best to have had him speak and booed off stage?
            That's what Americans do these days, a lot of booing.
            The youth are much more understanding, in general, of gays and lesbians.
            What about Rick Santorum and his thoughts about homosexuals, but having to have a photo of Lindsey Lohan/both with and without him in it? Is that also a parable?

            Reading through some of the comments I find out that is said children are best in a traditional home. While there is plenty of evidence to show that true there is also plenty of evidence for success of single parent families and same sex parents. I also think you'll find quite a bit of deranged people that have been reared from any of the three. But to deny same sex marriages for the tax advantage, come on!
            Yes folks, you heard it hear first from bill39: "Sure the democrat party is tolerant of gays, to secure votes only"

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:01 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Rob123 posted at 10:36 am
            --------------
            Touche'

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:59 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, please insert the personal insults towards the end of your rants. That sort of grade-school tactic is not the behavior of a rational mind so I just stop reading and move on to the next post.
            You take up what you call a secular position on traditional marriage, which just happens to support your feelings on the matter. The very same formula for rationalization that you accuse and condemn me for using.
            If, as you state, "there is so much evidence that the lack of presence of BOTH gender types in a nurturing home can have damaging effects on children", perhaps you will consider campaigning as stalwartly against single parenthood by straight persons.
            As far as your question "Who are you to dismiss others' religious beliefs?" goes, allow me to ask you who are you to dismiss others' opinions different from yours with such vitriol, insults, and condescension? Funny how out of all the 'Laws' in Leviticus, religious people only want to uphold one: the homophobic one.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:36 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            HTC: You have a nasty habit of asking questions while sharply limiting the other person's chance to respond.

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:03 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.
            "I wonder if this would have gotten past the studio's censors if it was a girl and a male teacher.
            Maybe the lefties here would like to defend this."

            Hummmmmmm?

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:07 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            HTC: You have a nasty habit of asking questions while sharply limiting the other person's chance to respond.

            ...........which goes with his nasty habit of posting..........

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:37 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            The hatred which spawned the South Central LA riots twenty years ago has left deep scars for many. Nearly half of the 53 homicides which occurred are still unsolved. It will take a strong stomach to read through the list of unsolved cases and their details:

            http://tinyurl.com/8xye8zl

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:03 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Coming Fathers' Day 2012 - a new Adam Sandler comedy, "That's my boy", about a 13-year old boy having sex with his middle school teacher and having a baby with her:

            http://tinyurl.com/7lay3sx

            I wonder if this would have gotten past the studio's censors if it was a girl and a male teacher.

            Maybe the lefties here would like to defend this.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:56 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Ah, the fairer sex:

            Sweet revenge: Dentist pulls ALL of ex-boyfriend’s teeth out after getting dumped
            BY JONATHAN LEMIRE / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
            Saturday, April 28, 2012, 1:57 PM

            Revenge is a dish best served with novocaine.

            A dentist in Poland, dumped by her boyfriend, got payback by removing all of her former lover’s teeth — leading his new lady to dump him, too.

            Anna Mackowiak could face three years in jail after she agreed to treat her ex-boyfriend, Marek Olszewski, when he asked her to help with a toothache just days after he broke up with her.

            “I tried to be professional and detach myself from my emotions,” Mackowiak, 34, told the Daily Mail. “But when I saw him lying there I just thought, ‘What a ba$tard.’”

            Mackowiak then allegedly gave Olszewski, 45, a massive dose of anaesthetic and coldly plucked out his teeth one by one.

            She then wrapped his jaw in bandages to prevent him from opening his mouth — and then simply walked away.

            “I knew something was wrong because when I woke up I couldn’t feel any teeth and my jaw was strapped up with bandages,” Olszewski told the British newspaper.

            But he did not realize the horror of what happened until he got back to his Wroclaw apartment.

            “But when I got home I looked in the mirror and couldn’t f---ing believe it. The b---h had emptied my mouth.”

            Olszewski, who will get implants, said his new girlfriend could not handle being with a man who did not have teeth — and dumped him.

            Mackowiak is being investigated for medical malpractice.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:39 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rob123: Any insights you would like to share with us concerning your own experiences of an Oxygen starved mind, consciousness, and cognitive psychology? No parables allowed! And try to limit the analogies.....especially the "It's like floating on the ceiling......" or "It's like going down a tunnel filled with white light".

            HTC: You have a nasty habit of asking questions while sharply limiting the other person's chance to respond.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:36 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            JBSTONE posted at 11:19 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012

            HTC: Controlled hypothermia was relatively new in 1991 but is now common procedure in so many treatment protocols; as a result, we've seen a flood of corroborated NDEs in the last 10 years and there's a lot of new research being done because of them.

            Stay tuned....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:19 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: A complex value system? Leave it to Mr. Know-it-all to bring quadratic equations to a morals discussion. You are defending religious beliefs.

            HTC: Who are you to dismiss others' religious beliefs? After all, people of faith believe in something unseen and unproven, while you believe in something (AGW) unseen and disproven. That puts people of faith one step ABOVE you on the evolutionary ladder.

            And I wasn't defending any religious take on the morality issue at all. Why would I, since I'm agnostic? It amazes me how easily you get lost in the shortest of weeds; but, liberalism does that to those who embrace it.

            While there are many, both on the right and on the left, who tend to argue against gay marriage from what they believe to be a Biblical perspective, there are other secular reasons why society might choose not to recognize it or to extend a modified version of it, while not otherwise discriminating against gays. Many constitutional law scholars argue that is allowed at the STATE level.

            After all, marriage is both a religious institution and a civil one and society definitely has the right to regulate the latter and, to some extent, even the former (e.g. laws against bigamy.) In one of my posts yesterday, I made it perfectly clear (well, maybe not to YOU) that I am fine with gay marriage but that I also recognize society's right to legislate on that matter.

            What I am not comfortable with is the idea of gay couples raising children as there is so much evidence that the lack of presence of BOTH gender types in a nurturing home can have damaging effects on children. This has been well documented in broken heterosexual homes, so why wouldn't it be a problem in gay homes and avoided unless truly necessary for other reasons?

            Bronco: What's next? That same book that is homophobic states that gGod sent two she-bears to kill 42 children for calling a prophet 'baldy.'

            HTC: Since you've chosen to bring up that story, let's look at it in more than the cursory fashion which is normal for you.

            The Hebrew word which was translated to "children" is na'ar, which are young people anywhere from the age of 12 to 30, but typically what we would think of as older teens (17-19). There were 42 of them (think mob/gang), surrounding Elisha and showing hostility towards him even though he had just purified that town's water supply, making it once again fit for human consumption.

            There is a Jewish tradition that says that there were men in the town that would purify that water for a handsome profit and Elisha had just put them out of business. They were angry and sent this mob to confront Elisha.

            Fearing for his life, Elisha cursed them and that was when the bears appeared and mauled them. It is unclear whether they were killed or not.

            But again, who are you to mock what you regard as the unfounded and ridiculous beliefs of others when you've embraced such a tremendous set of myths of your own (AGW, 'stimulus', sustainability of the nanny state, evolution as fact, etc.)?

             
          • bill39 posted at 6:08 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 1050

            JBSTONE: PORTLAND, Ore. - Vandals attacked a Southeast Portland church known for its conservative views on homosexuality, and church leaders said the damage is in the thousands of dollars.

            Just another example of intolerance and violence from the left, the lefties that claim they are tolerant. Of course, just another lie.

            JBSTONE: Someone taking responsibility for the damage sent an email to local media, claiming the vandalism at Mars Hill Church on Southeast Taylor was the work of a gay rights group.

            The gay rights group who have a secure home in the democrat party. Sure the democrat party is tolerant of gays, to secure votes only, just like the rest of their special intrest groups.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:30 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Rob: "Any insights you would like to share with us concerning your own experiences of an Oxygen starved mind"

            Well, every time I read one of your posts I get an inkling of what it might do to permanently injure ones
            psyche.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:07 am on Mon, Apr 30, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            JBSTONE posted at 11:19 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.
            Posts: 3800
            A lengthy, but fascinating, read.....

            Any insights you would like to share with us concerning your own experiences of an Oxygen starved mind, consciousness, and cognitive psychology? No parables allowed! And try to limit the analogies.....especially the "It's like floating on the ceiling......" or "It's like going down a tunnel filled with white light". Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have all read Carlos Castaneda and know he wrote most of that stuff while in a cubicle at the UCLA Library,,,,,or was it USC? The Upanishadic teachings are much clearer on this, and a couple thousand years old. Plus they attach a whole Metaphysics to the experience......give it a read, what could it hurt? Heck, you could even venture into "The Tibetan Book of the Dead" and become familiar with ALL the colors and which ones to shy away from. Much better than the "Egyptian Book of the Dead", IMHO.

            Heck, you might even be able to talk the VA into covering Micheal Jackson's anesthesiologists home visits to your house? How cool would that be?

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 11:19 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            A lengthy, but fascinating, read: http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/singleton/

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 11:14 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Vandals hit church with conservative views on homosexuality
            By Patrick Preston KATU News and KATU.com Staff Published: Apr 25, 2012 at 1:03 AM PDT

            PORTLAND, Ore. - Vandals attacked a Southeast Portland church known for its conservative views on homosexuality, and church leaders said the damage is in the thousands of dollars.

            Someone taking responsibility for the damage sent an email to local media, claiming the vandalism at Mars Hill Church on Southeast Taylor was the work of a gay rights group.

            The vandals broke century-old stained-glass windows.

            "We heard these loud, startlingly loud, noises," said neighbor Annie Winn, who watched from across the street. "We jumped out of bed and looked out the windows here, and these black figures were running past the church and throwing rocks at the windows as they went."

            She spotted at least six vandals dressed in all black running away after shattering at least nine windows.

            "It saddens us that some folks feel they had to vandalize our space to be heard. But we wish them no ill will," said lead pastor Tim Smith.

            The Seattle-based church, known for its strict views against homosexuality, attracted protests when it opened in Portland last year.

            Smith said vandalism won't stop the church as members work to define Mars Hill by more than what they are against.

            "I disagree with the church on that issue. But I completely disagree with the vandalism as a response to that," Winn said.

            The destruction is actually bringing church critics and supporters together.

            "I needed to make it clear that they were not speaking for me as an openly gay man, as a Christian, as a pastor," said Rev. Nathan Meckley, with the Metropolitan Community Church.

            Meckley felt compelled to help clean up despite his disagreement with Mars Hill. He's encouraged his church now has a running dialogue with Mars Hill members.

            "The fact that we are actually meeting with one another and know one another, I feel, sincerely, that we are beginning to understand one another in a completely different way," he said.

            Mars Hill leaders say the church is not antigay, but they also are not flexible in their beliefs on sexuality.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 11:11 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco: "You are so cool, JB. So far you've called people homosexuals and useless."

            I NEVER said homosexuals were useless..........after all, they keep each other busy.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:21 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: It probably looks that way to someone incapable of understanding a complex value system and who prefers to argue from ignorance.
            -----------------------------------------------
            A complex value system? Leave it to Mr. Know-it-all to bring quadratic equations to a morals discussion. You are defending religious beliefs. What's next? That same book that is homophobic states that gGod sent two she-bears to kill 42 children for calling a prophet 'baldy.'

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:26 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            HTC: It probably looks that way to someone incapable of understanding a complex value system and who prefers to argue from ignorance.

            Hey Bronco! Two more nails, and he'll have nailed his Self to the Cross. Talk about history repeating itself. Sheesh. I guess I should wash my hands before going out to finish changing the oil in my lawn mower.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:51 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Bronco: Being homophobic made us great?

            HTC: It probably looks that way to someone incapable of understanding a complex value system and who prefers to argue from ignorance.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:45 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            IABD: Barak Obama has already proven he can sing better than Elvis.

            HTC: He just has trouble understanding and remembering the lyrics...

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:27 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            HTC: If John Wesley "embraced all that he did" but turned his back on his God, he'd have nothing left to embrace.

            I disagree. Methodology ...... Methodists. And what do Behavioral Psychologists do? Both are systems, and remarkably similar. And both are concerned with individuality and sense of Self. Sure, he was a little before Kierkegaard, and the infamous 'leap', but hey! Don't just rant off the top of your head, study it. I have, many moons ago. And now I find it boring.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 6:14 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            Thanks JB (Mr. Cut and Paste) Stone. Your insults are truly, um, intelligent? It makes my day when a bitter, and lonely old man like yourself graces me with your opinion.

            JBSTONE posted at 12:09 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Bronco: "Being homophobic made us great?"

            What? I have no fear of you.

            Of course you shouldn't. One should never fear his inner self.

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:46 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            You are so cool, JB. So far you've called people homosexuals and useless. Thank you for your contributions. I look forward to reading your next personal insult.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:36 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Indy:"Think for yourself, and not toe the line, and you're a pariah, an outcast. "

            Or..........just useless like you.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:06 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            If Mitt Romney could sing like Pat Boone would we then have a more meaningful partisan parable?
            Barak Obama has already proven he can sing better than Elvis.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 4:49 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            Insult the other guy, and they'll ("conservatives") support you. "Liberals" too, by the way.

             
          • Independentthinkermt posted at 4:43 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Independentthinkermt Posts: 386

            I receive many queries from young people who want to get married. I spend my time discouraging them !-Pat Boone. 1956

            Well, at least he's committed. I guess if you want to be a good "conservative" you just need to hate everyone who's different than you. Sounds pretty simple to me. Insult the other guy, and they'll ("conservatives") support you. Think for yourself, and not toe the line, and you're a pariah, an outcast. No wonder they're so adamant, and un-yielding about their OPINIONS. After all, no one wants to argue with only themselves.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:22 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            MT_foundation: If I were graduating from an institution of higher education today and they told me that Pat Boone was going to give the commencement I'd protest too.....Simply put, it's a non-issue with the generation now completing college and if they hear of someone coming to give their commencement address who does not share their values of course they're going to speak-up.

            HTC: Well, then none of you have a right to call yourselves "tolerant", do you?

            I attend various engineering conferences where quite often some of the speakers are academics who frequently inject their BS about man-caused global warming, and "corporate greed", and often demand government action that infringes on the legitimate rights of individuals and the states. They have other things of value to contribute, so I and most others just ignore the parts of their presentations that we know to be BS. We DON'T try to get them tossed off of the speaker list.

            While I personally do not have anything against gay marriage, I can also see where society has the right to decide what unions will be recognized by the state and given special treatment (e.g., lower tax rate) since it is in the interest of the state and the economy to have and to promote a growing, healthy population. Outside of special medical interventions, gay couples cannot procreate, so it can be argued and has been by many constitutional scholars, that society has a right to recognize only those unions it considers beneficial to the state, its citizens and the the health of the gene pool.

            Some counter with adoption and in-vitro fertilization as means by which gay couples can fill the same role, but there is much to be learned as to the service or disservice done to children in such arrangements. There is already much child development research which has shown that children benefit most from growing up with a loving mother and father, in an evironment where they are exposed to the natural gender differences which Mother Nature has given the sexes. That research shows that broken heterosexual homes harm the children in multiple ways.

            Perhaps we should be seeking to address that problem before we encourage and promote other family home arrangements that we don't yet understand well at all.

            Of course, many in the field of psychology are now actively seeking to dismiss those concerns because the accompanying moral obligations they represent just aren't acceptable to the "if it feels good, do it" crowd.

            While one may not like Boone's perspective on gay marriage, he holds and represents other values which are timeless, even if many of us lack the intellectual honesty and moral wisdom to acknowledge them as equally valid today.

            There will no doubt be a number of students in the audience that will appreciate many of his comments and attempting to deny them the opportunity to hear him is no different than the "tyranny of the majority" which they claim to be opposing on the gay-rights issue.

            This is their opportunity to demonstrate some of that "tolerance" they talk so much about.


             
          • Bronco posted at 2:15 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            JB: What? I have no fear of you.

            ----------------

            Then you'll never be great...or straight.

             
          • MT_foundation posted at 1:15 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            MT_foundation Posts: 64

            If I were graduating from an institution of higher education today and they told me that Pat Boone was going to give the commencement I'd protest too. He might be an interesting historical anachronism, from those simple days of Elvis vrs. Pat, but bears little if any relevance to the world that these graduates are going to face once they walk off that campus. I'm not sure what all of Mr. Boone's comments are regarding gay marriage or gay people in general, but he might bring to light a huge chasm that the right wing of the political establishment better address soon lest it loose an entire generation of voters.

            Specifically, the entertainer, politician, or any other public figure who actively comes out as an advocate to prevent equal rights for law-abiding, consenting adults will have that tag on them for the duration of their public lives. Simply put, it's a non-issue with the generation now completing college and if they hear of someone coming to give their commencement address who does not share their values of course they're going to speak-up. Projecting this out a bit further, I fear that if the Republican party continues down this path regarding that subject they're going to alienate even more constiuents then they already have, and their base is going to be diminished down to something that isn't reflective of the actual world we live in today.

            So, Frank, don't be surprised by this. These college kids have out gay friends and relatives and when they hear someone speak negatively about them they take it personally. My two cents...

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 12:09 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco: "Being homophobic made us great?"


            What? I have no fear of you.

             
          • wallypalo posted at 12:06 pm on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            wallypalo Posts: 2

            I've always like Pat Boone. I remember watching Journey to the Center of the Earth at evening Sunday School. However, like many older conservatives, the man seems to have a fixation with gay people. His article "Hate is Hate, India or America" first describes the horrible bombings in India, but them extrapolates an equality between that violence and the organized campaign against the anti-gay-marriage law in California. I'm sure there are violent people holding the same views that I hold, but most of us are not violent. Plus Boone seems to misunderstand the difference between a democratic mob and a republic. In a Republic like ours, laws have to be applied equally to everyone. Otherwise, our "rights" are subject to cancellation by the political majority. If government-sanctioned "marriage" is not allowed to gay people but only to heterosexuals, then marriage itself should not be recognized by the state. No mention of it should be in our laws, etc. Good luck in Family Court with no recognition of Marriage.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:19 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Frank: The point of the column, Montana Jim, is that 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago in the United States, it would have been common for our citizenry to quote the Bible without feeling like they were about to be locked up or beaten for their beliefs (that's only supposed to happen in Egypt and those other "springtime democracies.") You can take it or leave it when someone calls you a sinner, but that doesn't change the fact that our country is no longer moored to the values that made us great.
            -----------------------------
            Being homophobic made us great?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:09 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            Rob123: Your mentioning of John Wesley as a "conservative" is interesting......During his life, I don't think he would have been considered "conservative" by those around him.......

            HTC: I can find no place where Frank called Wesley a "conservative", so what's your point?

            Rob123: If John Wesley had been born a little later, and embraced all that he did embrace with the addition of "God is Dead", he would have been an excellent Behavioral Psychologist working to end slavery and expand the limits of Freedom and Liberty.

            HTC: If John Wesley "embraced all that he did" but turned his back on his God, he'd have nothing left to embrace. You clearly know nothing about the man. His whole message and life work was to point out that salvation was available to all, but only by faith in God's grace, and that His grace was amazingly transformative for those who embraced it.

            He would likely have scoffed at psychologists for attempting to change/heal people without God when only God's grace could achieve that healing.

            But again, what is your point?

             
          • kohana posted at 10:02 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bible scholar Dr. Joel M. Hoffman, author of “And God Said: How Translations Conceal the Bible’s Original Meaning” and “And God Said In The Beginning.” He holds a PhD in theoretical linguistics. He has an online forum for discussing translations and mistranslations, of the Bible. God Didn’t Say That

            http://goddidntsaythat.com/

            Who says homosexuality is a sin?

            The NLT (New Living Version 1996) does, right there in its “translation” to Leviticus 18:22: “Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.”

            But that’s not what the Hebrew says, and I’ve put the word “translation” in scare quotes because I think that what the NLT has here is an interpretation, not a translation.

            The Hebrew in Leviticus — as is widely known — is more complicated. The first part of the verse is in commandment form. The NRSV’s (New Revised Standard Version) rendition is fairly good: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman.” The second part augments the first with the explanation that, “it is an abomination.”

            Homosexuality
            Although the phrasing is odd to modern ears, the Hebrew almost certainly referred to men having sex with men. The NLT’s substitution of “homosexuality” is wrong for at least two reasons. Their English refers equally to men and women, while the Hebrew doesn’t address what women do. And their English refers to a wider variety of acts and attitudes than the Hebrew. But even so, I think “homosexuality” for a translation here is close enough to be considered okay for what the NLT is trying to do.

            Sin
            But when the NLT introduces the word “sin” for the Hebrew to’evah, I think it has left the realm of translation behind, replacing it with their understanding of modern dogma.

            The Hebrew word to’evah occurs often enough that it’s not hard to figure out what it means. For example, in Genesis 43:32, the Egyptians don’t eat with the Hebrews because it is a to’evah for the Egyptians. Similarly, “every shepherd” is a to’evah to the Egyptians according to Genesis 46:34. Deuteronomy 14:3 helps us out further: “Do not eat any to’evah”; from context the to’evah is unkosher animals. Proverbs 21:27 teaches that the sacrifice of the wicked is a to’evah. In the moving lament in Psalm 88, verse 9 (also numbered verse 8, and in the LXX numbered Psalm 87:9) includes the woe that God has made the author a to’evah to his acquaintances.
            All of this evidence — and more — points in the direction of “undesirable thing” for to’evah. The standard translation “abomination” is probably mostly right. (I sometimes wonder if “taboo” was included in the meaning.)
            And it seems that the authors of the NLT knew this. In the very similar text of Leviticus 20:13, also about a man having sex with another man, the NLT translates the resulting to’evah as “detestable act.”
            Leviticus 18:22 is politically and religiously charged. It seems to me that a translation that masks the original text — presenting an interpretation as though it were the original — is a disservice to everyone.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:55 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            SorrySOB: The less narrow minded readers out their might want to read the following article and hear what Pat Boone really said. Frank is putting the Fox spin on it and leaving key points out. Wait, what else is new?

            HTC: Well, if we want to "hear what Pat Boone really said", your author is of no help, as he largely just summarizes what he BELIEVES Pat Boone said. Your posting his link rather than a link to Boone's actual column serves only to highlight the fact that you're comfortable letting other lefties do your thinking for you.

            If Pat and Frank are guilty of anything, it's leaving out the gory details of the threats, violence and property damage which were inflicted upon Prop 8 signature gathers, supporters, businesses and organizations which contributed to the support of Prop 8's passage and/or its defense in federal court.

            Apparently in your world, to avoid being "narrow-minded", one must strive to remain ignorant of key facts which would force a different narrative.

            This case is so illustrative of the hypocrisy of the left. When they win, it's the "rule of law" because the majority should rule; however, when they lose to the majority, it's "tyranny" and "hate" and "oppression" being inflicted upon them.

            They are the ultimate my-way-or-the-highway folks.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:26 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9899

            JBSTONE: “It’s now sad to see the Obama campaign seek to use an event that unified our country to once again divide us, in order to try to distract voters’ attention from the failures of his administration.”

            HTC: Very true. But don't think for a minute that this is as low as Obama and his supporters will go. They will dramatically deepen the political gutter before this election is over.

             
          • posted at 9:24 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Posts:

            Hi Donal: Thanks. Correction noted and made! Have to blame that on rushing Friday afternoon. I actually looked the name up to make sure I got it right, and then I put in Priscilla anyway! As mom used to say, It's always something!

             
          • nailheadtom posted at 8:57 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            nailheadtom Posts: 57

            Of course the the guys wearing tweed jackets with elbow patches and Birkenstocks looking down on the campus from the ivy-covered walls of their ivory towers are offended and terrified by the likes of a super-annuated entertainer. They fear that the four years of indoctrination that they've so diligently administered to these unformed minds will be cancelled by a ceremonial speech of probably less than an hour, like carefully painting your Cadillac with water colors and watching the finish dissolve with the first sprinkles. One can only feel pity for pseudo-intellectuals with such small confidence in what they have to offer.

             
          • Pequot posted at 8:16 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Pequot Posts: 525

            Very interesting column. The thoughts extracted by others are quite interesting as well. Rick Spencer's depiction of the Swamis swarming higher education with the exclusionary zeal of Cotton Mather was fun to read. Kohana's Dorothy Parker limerick gave me my laugh of the day.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:18 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-04-29/national-day-prayer-reason-atheists/54583658/1

            Secularists counter prayer day with National Day of Reason

            "To that end, local groups of nontheists will hold blood drives (Groton, Conn.) training in lobbying politicians (Raleigh, N.C.) and voter registration drives (Flagstaff, Ariz.), as well as marches, rallies and social gatherings. One group in Putnam, Conn., is holding a "science for reason" book exchange — turn in a Bible and receive a free copy of Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species, among other titles.
            NDR was started in 2003 by a Washington-based group of humanists who viewed government participation in the National Day of Prayer as a violation of the separation of church and state."

             
          • BrianT posted at 6:38 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            BrianT Posts: 6

            We see exactly this sort of thing just about everywhere we look. Congressvermin and even the president deride the constitution, and collectivists of all stripes ridicule and condemn the Founders. When being an adherent to long-established law - the Constitution - is condemned as "radical" and "extreme" by the likes of Janet Napolitano, where does that leave us?

            Mr. Boone's observation that sooner or later violence must set in seems, sadly, correct. I pray that it won't, but I certainly won't capitulate to those embracing ideas and behaviors known to be wrong and evil. The irony is rich: those who hurl insults like "bigot" and "narrow minded" are themselves ignorant of how their plans have failed miserably in the past. Their ignorance becomes everyone's problem.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:35 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            Frank: Thanks for posting the link http://www.wnd.com/2008/12/82830/ to Pat Boone's column. I agree with his opinion concerning legal remedies for changing inequalities in society, although his sermon hinting at the peaceful transition for abolition and women's suffrage and voting rights for blacks is a little bit of a pie-in-the-sky view of the cultural history of the USA. I remember watching the Fire Hoses and Police Dogs released on the marchers in Selma, Al., from the comfort of my living room and the safety of Montana. Although being in High School, I was quite put out by the whole scene and wondered why these folks couldn't vote?

            As for falling back on the Bible for intellectual justification of one's politics......hum? No thank you, I'd rather not. And I wish the Islamic fundamentalists would knock it off, too, as they quote the Koran out of context to justify their brand of colonialism.

             
          • DONAL posted at 3:22 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            DONAL Posts: 1

            I believe Lisa Marie--not Priscilla--is Elvis' daughter.

             
          • posted at 2:37 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Posts:

            Here is the link to the original Pat Boone column. Sorry I did not include it in the column. It got kind of hectic on Friday, as it usually does.

            http://www.wnd.com/2008/12/82830/

            The point of the column, Montana Jim, is that 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago in the United States, it would have been common for our citizenry to quote the Bible without feeling like they were about to be locked up or beaten for their beliefs (that's only supposed to happen in Egypt and those other "springtime democracies.") You can take it or leave it when someone calls you a sinner, but that doesn't change the fact that our country is no longer moored to the values that made us great.

             
          • Blake posted at 12:40 am on Sun, Apr 29, 2012.

            Blake Posts: 162

            The link SorrySOB provided at 10:17 p.m. leads to a December, 2008 blog post by one Jeffrey Feldman. Feldman generally excoriates Pat Boone, but his link to an article by Boone no longer leads to it. Nevertheless, Feldman gives us a riff on civil society and civil behavior with the Right's general support of California's Proposition 8 (against homosexual marriage -- it won) as the telling example of misbehavior.

            However, the systematically UNcivil behavior of the Left (the losing side on Proposition 8) after the election was what was really remarkable -- a new phenomenon in American politics. An October 2009 publication from Heritage ( http://s3.amazonaws.com/thf_media/2009/pdf/bg2328.pdf ) pulled together the whole picture. Excerpts:

            "People who supported Prop 8 have been subjected to harassment, intimidation, vandalism, racial scapegoating, blacklisting, loss of employment, economic hardships, angry protests, violence, at least one death threat, and gross expressions of anti-religious bigotry...

            "Many reports of hostility toward Prop 8 supporters involve acts of vandalism. An elderly couple who put a Yes on 8 sign in their yard had a block thrown through their window. A senior citizen who placed a pro-Prop-8 bumper sticker on her car had her car’s rear window smashed in. Some individuals with pro-Prop-8 bumper stickers had their cars keyed. One woman with a “One Man, One Woman” bumper sticker had her car keyed and tires deflated while she was in a grocery store. One man who placed signs in his yard and stickers on his cars and motorbike reported that someone egged and floured his home three times and egged, floured, and honeyed his car twice. ...

            "Vandals spray-painted vehicles, garages, fences, and Yes on 8 signs in Yucaipa, California. An Alta Loma resident who placed a Yes on 8 sign in her yard found the words 'love for all' and 'no on 8' spray-painted on her fifth-wheel trailer. In San Jose, vandals spray-painted the garage doors of two homeowners who displayed signs supporting Prop 8. Vandals also spray-painted anti-Prop-8 messages on commercial and residential buildings in Fullerton. ..

            "Vandals also hit houses of worship. Perpetrators used orange paint to vandalize a statue of the Virgin Mary outside one church. Offices at the Cornerstone Church in Fresno were egged. Swastikas and other graffiti were scrawled on the walls of the Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Church in San Francisco, a parish known widely as being 'gayfriendly.' In San Luis Obispo, the Assembly of God Church was egged and toilet-papered, and a Mormon church had an adhesive poured onto a doormat and keypad. Signs supporting Prop 8 were twisted into a swastika at Our Lady of Perpetual Help Catholic Church in Riverside. Someone used a heavy object wrapped with a Yes on 8 sign to smash the window of a pastor’s office at Messiah Lutheran Church in Downey...

            "In Fresno, the town mayor received a death threat for supporting Prop 8. The threat stated, 'Hey Bubba, you really acted like a real idiot at the Yes on Prop 8 Rally this past weekend. Consider yourself lucky. If I had a gun I would have gunned you down along with each and every other supporter.' The threat also mentioned a 'little surprise' for a local pastor who supported Prop 8 and 'his congregation of lowlife's' [sic]. 'Keep letting him preach hate and he'll be sorry,' the perpetrator threatened. 'He will be meeting his maker sooner than expected.' The threat also stated that anyone in Fresno displaying a Yes on Prop 8 yard sign or bumper sticker was 'in danger of being shot or firebombed.' Police took the threat seriously, launching a criminal investigation and taking extra steps to protect the mayor and pastor...

            "[O]ne lesson of Prop 8 cannot be denied: Individuals or institutions that publicly defend marriage as the union of husband and wife risk harassment, reprisal, and intimidation -- at least some of it targeted and coordinated.

            "Furthermore, although some same-sex marriage activists have expressed disagreement with certain types of conduct described in this paper, few activists would disavow the ideology underlying much of the outrage at Prop 8's success. Arguments for same-sex marriage, although often couched in terms of tolerance and inclusion, are based fundamentally on the idea that preserving marriage as unions of husband and wife is a form of bigotry, irrational prejudice, and even hatred against homosexual persons who want the state to license their relationships."

            That bit about the Most Holy Redeemer Church in SanFran might seem like an example of people hostile to homosexuals attacking a homosexual-supportive target , but the original source makes clear that the church was actually the victim of homosexual-marriage aficionados: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BA5B1540PH.DTL

            It's not clear to me that there's the straight line Pat Boone suggests between the Left's prolific, retail-level thuggery in the wake of their defeat on Proposition 8 and the wholesale terrorism in Mumbai. But Boone was onto something, anyway, in commenting on this behavior:

             
          • MontanaJim72 posted at 11:20 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            MontanaJim72 Posts: 223

            suppose in the end, we can only ask “What Would Wesley Do?” and turn to the sermons of John Wesley for guidance. There we find a defense of Pat Boone that should gird him on his visit to Adrian College today. In a sermon entitled “The Duty of Reproving Our Neighbor,” Wesley wrote, “Sin is ... the thing we are called to reprove, or rather him that commits sin. We are to do all that in us lies to convince him of his fault, and lead him into the right way.”

            ________________________________________________________________________________

            Sorry Frank.....I'm just curious why anybody should decide that I am a sinner and then also decide that they will show me the proper way they think I should live my life. I'm getting tired of people who think they are "born again" telling me that only they know how I should live my life. I don't know you personally, so I can't say you do this in your life. However, your column would indicate that you are very much in favor of people who are more than happy to look down on me just because they have been "saved", and in their opinion, I haven't been, at least until they think they have been able to "save" me. Almost every person I've met who was in my face about being "born again" ended up being somebody who burned me in one way or another. I've also met people who did wonderful things to help others, but I never knew about it from them. I only learned it from other people who also knew them. Those are the people I respect. They do their Christian acts and are content with that. They don't ask me to do the same, they just seem to know that others will understand why they do what they do, and maybe others will want to do something like it. In my world , these people are the true Christians that I might like to emulate.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:09 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6597

            Your mentioning of John Wesley as a "conservative" is interesting......During his life, I don't think he would have been considered "conservative" by those around him.......One might want to google "John Wesley", or wait for HTC to showcase his encyclopedic mind.

            If John Wesley had been born a little later, and embraced all that he did embrace with the addition of "God is Dead", he would have been an excellent Behavioral Psychologist working to end slavery and expand the limits of Freedom and Liberty.

            At the same time, Elvis should be seen as the epitome of living high and dying young courtesy of Big Pharma; and the inability of many to differentiate between "getting High" and "being High". It's an often repeated scenario. And the best we can seem to come up with to combat it is more prisons? I wonder what John Wesley would say about our Political/Social IQ? Many parallels to his Abolitionist stance, I betcha. And all footnotes to Plato's "The Death of Socrates".

            Nice quarter moon with a very bright Venus shining, if you can get everyone to turn off the lights and look up. (-:

             
          • SorrySOB posted at 10:17 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            SorrySOB Posts: 484

            The less narrow minded readers out their might want to read the following article and hear what Pat Boone really said. Frank is putting the Fox spin on it and leaving key points out. Wait, what else is new?

            http://jeffrey-feldman.typepad.com/frameshop/2008/12/frameshop-pat-boone-calls-civil-rights-activists-sexual-jihadists.html

             
          • SorrySOB posted at 10:02 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            SorrySOB Posts: 484

            "many of these riots turning defamatory and violent"

            Pretty much sums up all religion. It's been nothing but for the last few hundred years. What a bizarre column. Must be getting to the bottom of the barrel. Kind of like Romney.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 8:03 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            This column relates directly to my exit from higher education. I simply could not stand to be a part of the hypocrisy of the academics who were my colleagues. It was sort of like owning a boat, the two best days are the first and last, the day of delivery and the day it is gone Unfortunately, Adrian College is only one of hundreds who practice political correctness to the nth degree. Unless you have not been a part of Academia, you have not experienced real hate, hate with as a personal attack upon your very soul. If you are a part of it, you cannot escape it. It is almost as if you cannot be a patriot unless you have a strong will,and they have become one of the most destructive forces in modern America. They want you to commit suicide in relation to your beliefs to be accepted as one of them. I said good riddance on my way to a better life. RLS

             
          • kohana posted at 6:50 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Ah Frank, how come you never talk to me about this stuff before you publish? %-)

            Now I liked both Elvis and Pat in their place. I was 17 the first time I saw Elvis perform, I was so embarrassed by his gyrations I walked out of the show. It shows you how far I’ve come. By the time all was said and done, I was flash dancing on a cruise ship.

            From Dorothy Parker:
            I wish I could drink like a lady,
            I can have one or two at the most,
            Three and I’m under the table,
            Four and I’m under the host.

            By age 19 I was at Columbia Univ. in NYC where Pat was attending. We are distance cousins; Daniel Boone is our 5th or 6th great grandfather. We shared a lunch table and at one point I offered to become his kissing cousin. But since he was already married, he turned me down.

            I followed both their careers have albums of both. Was always proud of Pat staying on the path of good conduct. Was saddened by Elvis’ decline. Why is it that two beautiful, talented people go such opposite ways?

            Another of my ancestors was John Wesley Coker, a Methodist circuit-riding minister. I have ambrotypes of him and his wife, Nancy White Bassett, taken sometime before 1855. He was on the 1850 Census in AL, in 1860 he is gone, and Nancy is living with my great grandfather, her youngest son. I have not yet discovered when, where or how he died. Behind the ambrotype was part of a hand written poem, taken from “The Scholar of Thebet Ben Khorat” by Nathaniel Parker Willis, published in 1846.

            .......He who binds
            His soul to knowledge steals the key of heaven -
            But ‘tis a bitter mockery that the fruit
            May hang within his reach, and when, with thirst
            Wrought to a maddening frenzy, he would taste-
            It burns his lips to ashes!

            Would that poem account for the Methodist’s attitude toward Pat today?

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 6:48 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            NOW what..........???


            Osama bin Laden operation, Part Two
            http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/75696.html

            Crowds celebrate in front of the White House after Barack Obama announced that Osama bin Laden had been captured and killed, May 2, 2011. | AP Photo

            Team Obama begins an all-out push to find the ideal bin Laden balance. | AP Photo
            By JOSH GERSTEIN | 4/27/12 4:30 PM EDT Updated: 4/28/12 8:41 AM EDT

            A year after the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, President Barack Obama’s team is launching another precision operation: a full-scale public relations offensive aimed at using the bin Laden mission to boost the president’s reelection bid.

            On Friday, the Obama campaign released a new Web video suggesting that likely GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney might not have greenlighted the mission. “Which path would Mitt Romney have taken?” the video asks as former President Bill Clinton praises Obama for his decision.

            During a speech in New York Thursday, Vice President Joe Biden delivered an even sharper jab at Romney.

            (Also on POLITICO: Obama talks bin Laden in Situation Room interview)

            “Thanks to President Obama, bin Laden is dead and General Motors is alive. You have to ask yourself, if Gov. Romney had been president, could he have used the same slogan — in reverse?” Biden said, pointing to comments Romney made in 2008 that it was “not worth moving heaven and earth … just to catch one person.”

            Obama granted NBC a rare interview in the Situation Room Thursday to mark the raid’s anniversary. And the White House is dispatching Deputy National Security Adviser John Brennan to the Sunday TV talk shows to tout the administration’s anti-terrorism record.

            It’s an all-out push by Team Obama to find the ideal bin Laden balance: harnessing maximum political advantage from the anniversary while minimizing any backlash over politicizing the historic event.

            Romney’s campaign immediately accused the Obama camp of exploiting bin Laden’s death for political gain.

            “The killing of Osama bin Laden was a momentous day for all Americans and the world, and Gov. Romney congratulated the military, our intelligence agencies, and the president,” Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul said Friday. “It’s now sad to see the Obama campaign seek to use an event that unified our country to once again divide us, in order to try to distract voters’ attention from the failures of his administration.”

            Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) blasted Obama for engaging in “the height of hypocrisy” and a “pathetic political act of self-congratulation.”

            “Shame on Barack Obama for diminishing the memory of September 11th and the killing of Osama bin Laden by turning it into a cheap political attack ad,” McCain said in a statement Friday evening. “This is the same president who once criticized Hillary Clinton for invoking bin Laden ‘to score political points.’”

            Democratic strategists dismissed the GOP criticism.

            “It was the defining moment of the first term. To think people aren’t going to talk about it, Republicans are really naive,” said Chris Lehane, a former spokesman for Vice President Al Gore and Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.). “It’s going to be very difficult for the Republican Party, [whose] entire campaign in 2004 was predicated on issues like this, complaining somehow about all of this. … Any number of presidents, Democrat and Republican, did not succeed in getting bin Laden, and there’s one who did.”

            At times, Obama and his allies have expressed the kind of swagger that President George W. Bush was often faulted for.

            Asked at a December news conference about Romney’s claims that Obama was pursuing a strategy of “appeasement,” the president let loose.

            “Ask Osama bin Laden and the 22-out-of-30 top Al Qaeda leaders who’ve been taken off the field whether I engage in appeasement. Or whoever is left out there, ask them about that,” Obama retorted.

            Biden told a fundraiser in New Jersey last month that the mission was not just the most daring of the century or, say, in all of U.S. history, but in half a millennium.

            “You can go back 500 years. You cannot find a more audacious plan,” Biden said.

            An Obama campaign spokesman declined to comment on claims that Obama is inappropriately politicizing the national security issue, but White House press secretary Jay Carney on Thursday defended the administration’s approach.

            “I think the way that we’ve handled it … represents exactly the balance you need to strike,” Carney said.

            Principal deputy press secretary Josh Earnest added Friday that the flurry of activity is largely the product of the media’s desire to observe the one-year mark since the raid. “There certainly is interest around the one-year anniversary,” Earnest said.

            A former press secretary to Bush, Ari Fleischer, complained that Obama’s political use of the raid is seen as fair game, while in 2004 Bush was excoriated for simply showing Ground Zero in a campaign ad. Obama’s new Web video shows New York City firefighters celebrating the death of bin Laden.

            “There really is a double standard. … President Bush could barely use the number 9/11 in a sentence without somebody accusing him of politicizing 9/11,” Fleischer said, adding that he thinks it is “perfectly appropriate for both presidents” to discuss such events in their campaigns.

            But a political and advertising consultant for Bush, Mark McKinnon, said he thinks subtlety might serve the Obama camp best.

            “Best handled with sensitivity and nuance,” McKinnon told POLITICO. “No need to hit it on the nose. Everyone knows. But gentle reminders that Obama ‘has helped keep America safe’ will get the message across without dancing in the end zone.”

            While many analysts see the bin Laden publicity campaign as a no-brainer, the move does carry several risks.

            One downside is that Obama could be seen as upstaging the Navy SEALs and other operatives who carried out the raid. While Obama may have risked his political life in approving the operation, he wasn’t knocking down doors, piloting a crashing helicopter or braving possible explosive booby-traps in the bin Laden compound.

            Republicans are already arguing that Obama is giving short shrift to the real heroes in Abbottabad.

            “I want you to run two [sound] bites. One is what Barack Obama said after he caught and we killed bin Laden, and what George Bush says after we caught Saddam Hussein. They’re so different,” GOP consultant Alex Castellanos said on CNN Thursday. “One of them is ‘I … I … I did this’ and the other one is ‘We … we … we … and those brave men in the SEALs.’ It’s just a very different approach, and I think I sense some arrogance.”

            In his speech the night bin Laden was killed, Obama did portray himself as a key part of the narrative.

            “Shortly after taking office, I directed Leon Panetta, the director of the CIA, to make the killing or capture of bin Laden the top priority of our war against Al Qaeda,” Obama said that night. “I was briefed on a possible lead. … I met repeatedly with my national security team. … Finally, last week, I determined that we had enough intelligence to take action, and authorized an operation to get Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice.”

            But in that speech and later ones, Obama has often paid tribute to the U.S. commandos.

            “We give thanks for the men who carried out this operation, for they exemplify the professionalism, patriotism, and unparalleled courage of those who serve our country,” Obama said right after the raid, praising the military and CIA personnel for “tireless and heroic” work to track down bin Laden.

            He also traveled to Fort Campbell, Ky., days after the raid, to meet with the Navy SEALs involved — and to make another highly publicized speech about the dramatic, “Mission Impossible” assault he ordered.

            “The president has spoken frequently about how the lion’s share of the credit for the success of that mission goes to our men and women in uniform, to the men and women in the intelligence community,” Earnest said Friday.

            Another danger for Obama: His campaign’s focus on the raid could fuel criticism that disclosing so many details about the operation will jeopardize the ability of Navy SEALs to carry out future raids.

            House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Peter King (R-N.Y.) complained last year that the administration was leaking details for political gain, including by cooperating with a Hollywood film originally set to hit theaters just before the election.

            Carney dismissed the complaints, saying he hoped congressional critics “would have more important topics to discuss than a movie.”

            However, in December, the Pentagon’s office of inspector general announced it was launching an investigation into allegations that the filmmakers received access to classified information. A spokesman said Friday the probe is ongoing. The CIA also said it was revising its procedures to funnel contacts with the entertainment industry through a single point of contact at the agency.

            “They just have to be very careful in what they say so as not to give away methods of operation,” King said Friday in a statement to POLITICO.

            Even some administration officials have said that the White House, in its haste to tout the successful mission, spilled too many details into the public domain.

            “Frankly, a week ago Sunday, in the Situation Room, we all agreed that we would not release any operational details from the effort to take out bin Laden,” Defense Secretary Robert Gates told troops soon after the raid. “That all fell apart on Monday — the next day.”

            Highlighting bin Laden’s death also could feed into questions many Americans have about why tens of thousands of U.S. troops remain in Afghanistan and why military and Central Intelligence Agency drone campaigns are reportedly being expanded elsewhere in the world.

            “I don’t think the danger is people will think it’s wrong for the administration to go after bin Laden,” Daphne Eviatar of Human Rights First said. “The question is: Now that you’ve killed bin Laden and decimated Al Qaeda, why are we still at war?”

            While a judge ruled Thursday that the administration need not make public photos or videos of bin Laden’s death, administration officials are considering the release of new information about anti-terrorism efforts. The White House has declassified many of the papers seized from bin Laden’s hideout and is planning to put out them in the near future.

            Obama administration allies contend the GOP’s effort to minimize Obama’s role is off-base and self-serving.

            “The guys who executed the mission are heroes, but the guy who gave the order is the guy who gave the order,” former State Department official and Democratic campaign strategist Jonathan Prince said. “If the president gave the order and it turned out to be a debacle, he would get the blame. If the order is successful, he deserves the credit. You can’t have it both ways.”

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 6:38 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Another Parable..........

            Administration backs off child farm labor rule
            10:00 PM, Apr. 27, 2012 |
            WASHINGTON — Montana ranchers and lawmakers praised the Obama administration on Friday for dropping an unpopular plan to prevent children from doing hazardous work on farms or ranches not owned by their parents.

            The proposed rule from the Labor Department would have banned children younger than 16 from using most power-driven farm equipment, including tractors. The rules also would have prevented under-18s from working in feed lots, grain bins and stockyards.

            An exemption was made for children working on farms or ranches owned by their parents, but that wasn't enough to stem the criticism. Farm and ranching groups complained it would upset traditions in which many children work on farms owned by uncles, grandparents and other relatives to reduce costs and learn how a farm operates.

            Jay Bodner, natural resource director for the Montana Stockgrowers Association, said many of the group's members submitted comments opposing the rule.

            "Certainly in Montana, these youths are critical to the ranching industry," he said. "They start at very young ages. We do not put them at risk. But they are a critical component in getting work done."

            In a statement late Thursday, the Labor Department said that because of "thousands of comments expressing concerns," it would withdraw its proposed rule regarding children who work in agricultural jobs and not pursue it for the duration of the Obama administration.

            "The Obama administration is firmly committed to promoting family farmers and respecting the rural way of life, especially the role that parents and other family members play in passing those traditions down through the generations," the department said in a statement.

            J.D. Alexander, president of the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, said the rule would have discouraged young people from becoming interested in agriculture.

            "We are thankful that they realized and acknowledged their mistake," he told reporters Friday.

            While labor officials said their goal was to reduce the fatality rate for child farmworkers, the proposal had become a popular political target for Republicans, who called it an impractical, heavy-handed regulation that ignored the reality of small farms.

            In Montana, this issue spanned party lines. Sens. Max Baucus and Jon Tester, both Democrats, opposed it along with Rep. Denny Rehberg, a Republican.

            Tester, who is the Senate's only farmer, introduced a bill to prevent the proposed rules from going into affect. Rehberg, who comes from a ranching background, spoke out against the rule in letters and at congressional hearings.

            Rehberg, a member of the House Appropriations Committee that is in charge of the federal budget, has pledged to insert a provision in the spending bill for the Labor Department that prohibits them from implementing the rule "just in case they have second thoughts.

            "I have that authority. I have that ability. And I have every intention of doing it," Rehberg told reporters on a conference call Friday. "This regulation didn't make any sense."

            Tester, a grain farmer known to till his fields on weekends away from Washington, is a Democrat, but he too had criticized the Obama administration over the proposed rule, saying the Labor Department "clearly didn't get the whole message" from Montana's farmers and ranchers.

            Baucus also bucked his own party on the issue. Asked about the proposed rule, Baucus recalled his own childhood growing up on a ranch.

            "My daddy worked me to the bone. And I loved it," he said with a smile, adding that people on the East Coast and in cities don't get it.

            "They don't know what they're talking about," he said. "They don't know the West. They don't know agriculture."

            Tester, who faces a tough re-election challenge from Rehberg, praised Thursday's decision to withdraw the rule and said he would fight "any measure that threatens that heritage and our rural way of life."

            Instead, the Labor Department said it would work with rural stakeholders, including the American Farm Bureau Federation, the National Farmers Union and 4-H to develop an educational program to reduce accidents among young workers.

            Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack told the Tribune Washington Bureau on Friday that he plans to take the lead in this effort.

            "Rather than regulate we're going to focus on educate," Vilsack said. "We're anxious to get this started."

            Meanwhile, child-safety groups expressed dismay at the decision. Three-quarters of working children under 16 who died of work-related injuries in 2010 were in agriculture, according to the Child Labor Coalition.

            "They will save lives and preserve the health of farm children so they can grow up to be farmers," said Reid Maki, the CLC coordinator. "The department should implement them as soon as possible."

            Christopher Doering, Gannett Washington Bureau and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

            Contact Malia Rulon Herman at mrulon@gannett.com

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 6:35 pm on Sat, Apr 28, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Good Column, Frank..........!!!

             
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