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The struggle for power and the cost of conscience

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Posted: Saturday, September 21, 2013 7:00 pm

Nothing about the political battle between conservatives and liberals is new — not the passion, not the beliefs and not the absolute certainty on both sides that the country is doomed.

You could go back to the nation’s founding, and you would find similar disputes such as we are engaged in today. Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson waged a fierce fight over the notion of a central bank, for instance, and the same underlying themes were apparent then that are now being discussed regarding the need for federal oversight of health care, education, law enforcement, marriage and virtually every other element of daily life.

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          Welcome to the discussion.

          258 comments:

          • Montana-Girl811 posted at 5:54 pm on Sat, Oct 26, 2013.

            Montana-Girl811 Posts: 5

            I think Jefferson and Hamilton both had it half right. Yes, people do have a moral conscience. However, they also have a sin nature (yes, such a thing exists). Because of this sin nature, the conscience can be seared, with a hot iron, as it were (! Timothy 4:2). Because of this, he "makes a muck of things when given a free hand." Government was instituted to protect people from those who made a muck of it big time by committing such crimes as murder, theft, etc., but it was not instituted to PROVIDE for the people. Protection and punishment, not parenthood, are the responsibilities of the government.
            Also, the government is man-made, so the mistakes of man will creep into it despite the best of intentions.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:29 am on Sun, Sep 29, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            It's a beautiful day posted at 7:36 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Gosh, I guess I will have to call the local 'Help Desk' and hope I get the Oracle of Delphi, and not some old fart into Slasher Flicks......

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:36 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rob123 posted at 6:51 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            What is the price at your Conoco pumps in 2 weeks?

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiyKORXzoUw

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:51 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://marcbrecy.perso.neuf.fr/history.html

            Our Story in 2 minutes

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:50 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Pete: "NBC Launches Week of Programming to 'Help' Obamacare Succeed"

            HTC: While cellular phone companies, wireless broadband carriers and others pay dearly for precious RF bandwidth, the networks get their over-the-air licenses essentially for free because they supposedly perform a critical public service. When they start supporting a specific political party this overtly, it's time to jerk their licenses or or force them to pay through the nose for them, like all other RF users do.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:48 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            kohana posted at 5:46 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            "You know, I lived in Hollywood for about 10 years back in the 50s and 60s."

            IABD- I bet you were thrilled with Ronald Reagan's simple one liners fed to him by the John Birch Society.

            HighTechCowboy posted at 6:30 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            IABD- I bet you were thrilled with Ronald Reagan's narration in the 50's grade B western show "Death Valley Days"...Your John Birch Society 'death wish' has been very transparent to the community.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:41 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            It's a beautiful day posted at 12:38 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            As long as you insist upon letting other people do your 'thinking' for you, at least choose a higher caliber set of folks to lean upon. Right now, you're still in the gutter.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:30 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: Gary Marbut, head of the Montana Shooting Sports Association in Missoula, says prison is supposed to rehabilitate criminals and they should have rights restored.

            HTC: Nothing particularly 'extreme' in that statement; after all, history shows that felons who want guns will have no difficulty getting guns, no matter what kind of "gun control" you have in effect. Chicago is a perfect illustration of that reality.

            The key to making the world safe for law-abiding citizens is to make it dangerous for criminals and you do that by ensuring that a well-armed population is allowed to freely exercise their Second Amendment rights.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:22 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            kohana posted at 5:46 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            I hope your anti-freeze gator-aid mixture is good to 40 below this winter.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:56 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Pete: "Not only did IABD walk 50 miles in a day....it was on water."

            Oh Pete, name one person who has actually walked on water!

             
          • Pete posted at 5:55 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            kohana posted at 5:46 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            'I can walk on water as well, in sub-zero temps. I do it every winter.'

            [beam]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:55 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Pete posted at 5:18 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            At least I drank water while you gorged yourself in Ronald Reagan's vintage wine cellar.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:53 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Creepy video.

            http://gopthedailydose.com/2013/09/28/starnes-school-video-pledge-serve-obama/

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:53 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://www.nbcnews.com/health/three-quarters-uninsured-still-dont-know-when-obamacare-exchanges-open-8C11284514
            "Three-quarters of uninsured still don't know when Obamacare exchanges open, Kaiser poll says"

            "Just days before health insurance exchanges will open under Obamacare, three-quarters of the people who might most benefit from them – the uninsured – don’t know when they can begin shopping for coverage, according to a poll released Saturday by the Kaiser Family Foundation.

            But the uninsured aren’t the only ones in the dark: Two-thirds of all respondents didn’t know that the exchanges open on Tuesday."

             
          • kohana posted at 5:46 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Pete posted at 5:18 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            I can walk on water as well, in sub-zero temps. I do it every winter.

            Jeesh Pete, we're going to have to depend on film and TV actors to get info? You know, I lived in Hollywood for about 10 years back in the 50s and 60s. The most ignorant bunch of people in the world, basically all they can do is what obumer does, memorize lines they are given and repeating them.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:37 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            We may have discovered a cure for liberalism. These people ARE insane.

            'No children, happy to go extinct', tweets weatherman after grim climate-change report made him cry (now he's considering a vasectomy)

            Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2436551/A-weatherman-breaks-tears-vows-NEVER-fly-grim-climate-change-report.html#ixzz2gEWDDiwq

             
          • Pete posted at 5:27 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            On 22 July, President Barack Obama personally welcomed a group of entertainment stars and their industry associates to the Roosevelt Room of the White House. Among those seated at the conference table were Amy Poehler, Michael Cera, Jennifer Hudson and Jason Derulo – as well as representatives for Oprah Winfrey, Alicia Keys and Jon Bon Jovi. This, though, was not your average Washington meet-and-greet. Instead, an administration official said afterwards, everyone present had “expressed a personal interest in educating young people about the Affordable Care Act”.

            In the three-and-a-half years since he signed the Act into law, the President’s signature policy has become the most hotly debated piece of legislation in the US.

            Congress has spent the past week paralysed by a battle over the funding of Obamacare, despite the looming prospect of a Government shutdown. Yet even as the online private insurance marketplaces it established prepare for their launch next week, the President is yet to satisfactorily explain the details of the new system to the American public. For that, he turned to the experts: Hollywood.

            Among those at the July meeting was Mike Farah, president of production for the Funny or Die website founded by Will Ferrell. Farah recently told the Los Angeles Times, “They [the White House] had spent all this time and energy and money on the biggest movie of their lives and had no marketing budget in which to promote it. I just thought it was the craziest thing I’d ever heard.”

            Keen to help, Farah’s site, which attracts 19 million monthly users, is now developing some 20 separate comedy video projects to promote the law, the first of which will arrive online on Monday, a day before Obamacare’s health insurance marketplaces open for business. Last month singer-songwriter Derulo tweeted the website address healthcare.gov to his 2.3 million followers, while Katy Perry re-posted the President’s own pro-Obamacare tweet. “Thanks for spreading the word,” the President wrote back. “Happy to do my part, PREZ,” Perry replied.

            The White House hopes the support of such high-profile entertainment figures will offset the influence of conservative groups, who have poured millions into campaigning against Obamacare, and drown out the loud Republican voices in Washington, who still hope to thwart its implementation at the eleventh hour.

            This week Tea Party darling Ted Cruz, the junior Senator for Texas, delivered a continuous 21-hour, 19-minute speech on the Senate floor to demonstrate his opposition to the legislation. The budget year is due to end on 30 September, and, if the political fight over funding for Obamacare is not resolved by then, several nonessential government agencies will be shuttered on Monday.

            Hollywood’s input is crucial, specifically when it comes to reaching the critical demographic bloc of young people needed to take up the affordable private insurance plans sold through the new Obamacare marketplaces. The US Congressional Budget Office has estimated that 18-to-35-year-olds will likely account for 40 per cent of the seven million whom the White House hopes will enrol.

            In the coming days, administration officials are expected to begin nationwide meetings to explain the law to the public. On Thursday, President Obama began his own attempt to describe exactly how the Affordable Care Act will work, with a speech to around 2,000 students at a community college in Largo, a Washington DC suburb. “This is real simple,” Obama said. “It’s a website where you can compare and purchase affordable health insurance plans side by side, the same way you shop for a plane ticket on Kayak, same way you shop for a TV on Amazon.”

            The White House and Democrats in Congress say Obamacare will provide millions of Americans with health insurance they otherwise could not afford, while potentially pushing down healthcare costs. A Real Clear Politics average of polls conducted over three weeks up to Tuesday indicated a 38.7 per cent approval rating for Obamacare versus a 52 per cent disapproval rate.

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/michael-cera-jennifer-hudson-jason-derulo-oprah-winfrey-alicia-keys-and-jon-bon-jovi-barack-obama-turns-to-stars-to-promote-his-health-care-law-8845146.html

             
          • Pete posted at 5:24 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            "NBC Launches Week of Programming to 'Help' Obamacare Succeed"

            NBC announced today that it would be launching a week of programming to help Obamacare get off its feet, according to a press release sent out by the network. The law has been widely opposed by all Republicans and supported by most Democrats, including President Obama.

            http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/nbc-launches-week-programming-help-obamacare-succeed_757247.html

             
          • Pete posted at 5:18 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            kohana posted at 1:21 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            Not only did IABD walk 50 miles in a day....it was on water.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:12 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            who new posted at 10:30 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            "The kind of guy you wouldn’t mind watching a football game and having a beer with, like Joe the Plumber? Come on, Pete, Cruz is all about Cruz and may be as narcissistic as Obama."

            Did I say that? To the contrary, a person's willingness to stand up to the progressive -STATE agenda means more to me than some kind of likability litmus test ginned up by the MSM. If we continue to fight battles on ground of the enemy choice, we will continue to lose. If you think the MSM is going to let Paul Ryan or any other fresh-faced hero overwhelm the STATE agenda with his charm and good-natured facts, good luck. If he or anyone else gets within sniffing distance of electoral success, the MSM will photo-shop him red with pointy ears, put a pitchfork in his hand, and send him to electoral he//.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:10 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            mooseberryinn posted at 2:41 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            Your fuhrer was a fascist goon in the good old GDR. You have it exactly backwards.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 2:41 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Geez, you guys are so depressing! But, our savior, the good King Obama said he was going to give us all this "free" stuff? hey, did ya notice the "affordable" care act, is named exactly backwards? The communist goons in the good old GDR used to do that. Name it exactly what it is not. Oh well, so much for dreams of the gov't paying for stuff. sigh.....[sad]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:38 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Is Childhood Obesity Child Abuse?

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD9h4u7uASM

            kohana posted at 1:21 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013
            IABD- I have walked over 50 miles in one day in the Denver area looking for work. I had no address to receive government aid. The churches didn't help me either. It was the poor helping the poor at the time when Reagan was president.

             
          • kohana posted at 1:21 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            It's a beautiful day posted at 1:03 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            You are so full of it, ****, I'd like to have seen you walk 60 miles round trip to look for a job, and a girl hitchhiking? Your are out of your mind. California mentality? I hitch all over CA 60 years ago but didn't have to worry about crazies. Today even males are not safe hitching, but you have at it if you wish. In case you don't know it, there is no public transportation from the Swan or Bigfork. Not much job opportunity there either.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:03 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            kohana posted at 12:44 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            "If you don't have money for gas to get into town, you are tough out of luck unless a relative or friend helps you out."

            IABD- Typical Californian mentality. Before I became married I walked to town or hitchhiked. It used to be easier to walk to town from Evergreen, however the businesses along Hwy 2 East and on the Strip have made it difficult for pedestrian traffic. The state right of way has been encroached by business all the way to the curb and is now as cumbersome as an army obstacle course. As soon as a child graduates from the 8th grade they all want a car to cruise 3 or 4 miles to high school, from Evergreen instead of taking the bus.Where do these children get their money these days? Daddy Warbucks?

             
          • kohana posted at 12:44 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109


            mooseberryinn posted at 11:43 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013

            That probably won't work in MT moose. A young, 22 year old girl, with low I.Q. and uncontrolled diabetes lives across the hall from me, and we had to fight for 6 months to get her food stamps. She does get subsidized housing, not free, no free utilities though she has applied for L.I.E.P., and no free phone. My 21 year old grandson had to move in with his aunt, as he can't fine even enough part time jobs to pay his rent and utilities, and gas to job search.

            Young, single, adults; not baby daddies or baby mamas, are out of luck in Montana. Any medical these youngsters get are if I can scrape up the money, or a friend donates the money, or sometimes they get lucky and can get into the health dept. In serious emergencies can get into the hospital.

            So you are not going to just be able to sit back and get fat unless you have a bunch of kiddies at home. MT requires you to pound pavement looking for a job to be eligible for even food stamps. If you don't have money for gas to get into town, you are tough out of luck unless a relative or friend helps you out.

            All the PR promoted by obumer and his ilk to get votes are just lies.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:38 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            kohana posted at 11:34 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Investor%27s_Business_Daily

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:08 pm on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            mooseberryinn posted at 11:43 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            You will have to join the congregation of the church of the Nuclear Jesus and tithe at least 10 % to the Almighty to become a freeloader for Christ's sake. You probably did not even pay that much on income tax last year.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 11:43 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            I think I'll just give up and join the parasite demo-dummy party. I'll apply for welfare, food stamps, subsidies, unemployment, well, just any "free" stuff the regime wants to give me. Then, this winter, I'll just sit at the window in my gov't paid for home, crank up the gov't paid for heat, eat lots of the gov't paid for food, maybe even watch the gov't news channels and get fat. then I'll go to the gov't paid for clinics and gov't paid for hospitals for "free" gov't paid for "care". Hmm, sounds like a plan.[beam]

             
          • kohana posted at 11:34 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Just so you all know what the current standing is on employers cutting hours to avoid the new mandates.

            http://news.investors.com/politics-obamacare/092513-669013-obamacare-employer-mandate-a-list-of-cuts-to-work-hours-jobs.htm?fromcampaign=1

            ObamaCare Employer Mandate: A List Of Cuts To Work Hours, Jobs

            ObamaCare's impact on jobs is hotly debated by politicians and economists. Critics say the Affordable Care Act, with its employer mandate to provide health insurance, gives businesses an incentive to cut workers' hours. This year, report after report has rolled in about employers restricting work hours to fewer than 30 per week — the point where the mandate kicks in. Data also point to a record low workweek in low-wage industries.
            In the interest of an informed debate, we've compiled a list of job actions with strong proof that ObamaCare's employer mandate is behind cuts to work hours or staffing levels. As of Sept. 25, our ObamaCare scorecard included 313 employers. Here's our latest analysis, focusing on cuts to adjunct hours at nearly 200 college campuses. The ObamaCare list methodology is explained further in our initial coverage; click on the employer names in the list below for links to supporting records, mostly news accounts or official documents.
            We'll continue to update the list, which we encourage you to share and download into a spreadsheet to sort and analyze. If you know of an employer that should be on the list and can provide supporting evidence, please contact IBD at jed.graham@investors.com.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:24 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Gary Marbut, head of the Montana Shooting Sports Association in Missoula, says prison is supposed to rehabilitate criminals and they should have rights restored.

            “ When people get out of Deer Lodge, there ought to be a gun shop right outside the gate so people can buy a weapon to hunt or protect themselves with,” Marbut said. “ If they abuse that right, they should be taken out back and shot.”

            http://mtstandard.com/news/state-and-regional/felons-allowed-to-carry-weapons-in-montana/article_7b89e1e6-3fd9-5996-9f44-d67874d93601.html

            http://intelligentdiscontent.com/2013/01/15/gary-marbuts-rootin-tootin-insurrectionist-rant-in-the-independent-record/

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:47 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Good Question:

            http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Guns-and-Islam.jpg

             
          • who new posted at 10:30 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            HTC: “They can offer to fund ObamaCare in exchange for a one year delay in the personal mandate and maybe a few more minor considerations.”

            The problem here is Cruz and his cronies have vowed to vote against anything that funds Obamacare. Therefore, they would have to vote against a bill that includes the individual mandate delay. Then, the blame would shift to the Republicans for not being willing to delay the mandate.

            I do agree with you, though, defeating the delay may not be a bad thing politically.

            Pete: “He's simply a guy who decided to stand up for the American people and da*n the political machinations.”

            The kind of guy you wouldn’t mind watching a football game and having a beer with, like Joe the Plumber? Come on, Pete, Cruz is all about Cruz and may be as narcissistic as Obama.

            The good thing is all this grandstanding (Cruz, Paul, Rubio) has pretty much eliminated any US senators for consideration for the Presidency. The focus can now turn to Paul Ryan, the state governors, and some new possibilities. Who new?

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 9:37 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            re HTC - Wrong - this regime under good King Obama really is the source of charity. The regime takes money from the working folks (taxes) and gives it to the non-working folks. It's what Chairman Obama calls "transformation". The problem will show up when the taxes needed are greater than the taxes paid. Oh wait, we're there already. OK, so the next problem will be when there aren't enough working folks to support the non-working folks. Or - when employers cut jobs even more to part time to avoid "penalties". Ooops - again, we're there already. Hmm, I guess the "transformation" is really working.

             
          • bill39 posted at 9:07 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            bill39 Posts: 1052

            Haystack: I find it hard to believe that a state that had so many intelligent people would vote for and keep in office a guy like Max Baucus (D)............

            Had, is the keyword, although MT has been a democrat controlled state for generations.

            Wikipedia: Red states and blue states refer to those states of the United States whose residents predominantly vote for the Republican Party (red) or Democratic Party (blue) presidential candidates.

            Presidential, is the key word. Red and blue refers to PRESIDENTIAL candidates only.

             
          • Pete posted at 7:59 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Who new: "Nope. After Cruz coerced the House to pass the CR defunding Obamacare, lied to the Republican leaders about support he had in the Senate, and then filibustered the bill he supported, no one was paying any attention."

            Sorry, you lost me when you used "Republican" and "leaders" in the same sentence. You also know full well that his "yea" vote was a procedural vote to allow the Senate to consider the House bill...once funding is restored to the bill he will vote against it. Don't buy the beltway spin on that one.

            Who new: "When folks pocketbooks are as affected as they will be, they will realize Obamacare is a failure without Cruz telling them so."

            I agree with you on that point.

            Who new: "Frankly, he was too late on the bandwagon and should have done something long ago."

            That contradicts your earlier point about "Republican leadership". Cruz was always on the bandwagon, he was just being the good soldier and letting the "Republican leadership" lead. Where did that get any of us?

            Who new: "All he did was shift the focus from a particularly bad period of time for Obama (Libya, Syria, IRS, etc) to himself. And he alone will have to take responsibility for the probable failure to delay the individual mandate that probably can’t be accomplished now. Make no mistake about it, Cruz’s antics were not intended to defund Obamacare, they were to benefit Cruz and his cronies only."

            Good grief...did Cruz shift focus from Benghazi? The IRS scandal? Monitoring the AP? Fast and Furious? Hacking Sharyl Attkisson’s computer? Etc. etc.? The MSM was never going to let Syria be a problem for Obama. Never.

            Who new: "As far as Cruz being the new messiah, obviously some of the gullible types will follow him just like lemmings into the ocean. My fear is the damage he is doing to the chances of Republicans taking the House, or even worse, taking the Presidency."

            Who says Cruz is the new messiah? He's simply a guy who decided to stand up for the American people and da*n the political machinations. You seem to want him to play by the rules of a game that is fixed...now that is insane.

            Who new: "On the other hand, I think Cruz would be the perfect candidate for President. I’m not sure America has hit the bottom yet, and a Cruz candidacy would fail so miserably that the associated devastation in the House and Senate races would be remarkable. Our economy would totally tank and maybe then folks would realize the mess they have created for themselves."

            We tried that already with McCain. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Cruz. I don't hold him responsible one iota for the mess we are in. To try and scapegoat him for pointing out what we all know is coming is the height of political sophistry.

            Where I think we agree is the old statement that; "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." But I don't blame Cruz for trying.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:57 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            who new: And he alone will have to take responsibility for the probable failure to delay the individual mandate that probably can’t be accomplished now.

            HTC: Why would we want to delay the personal mandate? There's a lot of folks that are going to be confronted with massive sticker shock when they try to comply with the mandate. Going into this important midterm election, the GOP will be able to paint Obama and his party as the party of big business and not the party of the little guy, as they claim, because the evidence in the form of who got a one year delay and who didn't is painfully obvious.

            But if the GOP really does want a delay in the personal mandate, they can try to work that out in the compromise committee. They can offer to fund ObamaCare in exchange for a one year delay in the personal mandate and maybe a few more minor considerations.

            If the Democrats refuse, the GOP can claim that it is the Democrats who are willing to shut down the government because they refuse to give the little guy the same one year delay they gave to big business.

            THAT definitely won't play well for them going into the midterm election.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:49 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: Libertarians would have the poor go to the church for assistance instead of the government.

            HTC: Are you really so ignorant that you actually believe that the church is the ONLY source of charity? Do you even understand what really charity is?

            The government is not a source of charity. It is a source of force and coercion. Before it can give to someone, it must first steal from the hard-earned income of another.

            Is that concept really so advanced that you cannot grasp the moral differences?

             
          • Haystack posted at 6:16 am on Sat, Sep 28, 2013.

            Haystack Posts: 64

            I lived in Montana years ago. I find it hard to believe that a state that had so many intelligent people would vote for and keep in office a guy like Max Baucus (D) He himself said that obamacare was a train wreck from the start.
            Google: The obamacare train wreck: Column USA Today

            "Fundamental Transformation" and the repeal of the 2nd Amendment will be here soon. Good Luck>

             
          • who new posted at 11:32 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            Pete: “I wonder if anyone was paying attention?”

            Nope. After Cruz coerced the House to pass the CR defunding Obamacare, lied to the Republican leaders about support he had in the Senate, and then filibustered the bill he supported, no one was paying any attention

            Pete: “Cruz gave everyone the opportunity to do the right thing...the fact that they didn't, doesn't reflect badly on Cruz...it reflects badly on them.”

            When folks pocketbooks are as affected as they will be, they will realize Obamacare is a failure without Cruz telling them so. Frankly, he was too late on the bandwagon and should have done something long ago. All he did was shift the focus from a particularly bad period of time for Obama (Libya, Syria, IRS, etc) to himself. And he alone will have to take responsibility for the probable failure to delay the individual mandate that probably can’t be accomplished now. Make no mistake about it, Cruz’s antics were not intended to defund Obamacare, they were to benefit Cruz and his cronies only.

            Pete: “…this showed us who ARE the genuine conservatives …”

            As far as Cruz being the new messiah, obviously some of the gullible types will follow him just like lemmings into the ocean. My fear is the damage he is doing to the chances of Republicans taking the House, or even worse, taking the Presidency.

            On the other hand, I think Cruz would be the perfect candidate for President. I’m not sure America has hit the bottom yet, and a Cruz candidacy would fail so miserably that the associated devastation in the House and Senate races would be remarkable. Our economy would totally tank and maybe then folks would realize the mess they have created for themselves.

            Or maybe not.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:18 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:02 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            Libertarians would have the poor go to the church for assistance instead of the government. Ann Rand as an atheist libertarian would not give to the church to aid the poor and yet she went to the government to collect Social Security which she despised.in her writings. How would you define Christian Libertarian to the moral majority Republicans in your choir who don't wish government to exist? Should atheists and agnostics tithe 10 percent of their income to the church instead? Would you all become conscientious objectors, aka (chickenhawks)?

            http://blog.acton.org/archives/29848-what-is-a-christian-libertarian.html

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:29 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Did you know that a Spanish runner intentionally lost a race, because....

            Note to all you Ayn Rand fans, she would think this runner was a bad person for not caring for herself.

            http://www.tydknow.com/did-you-know-that-a-spanish-runner-intentionally-lost-a-race-because/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:12 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            occupylove.org

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:51 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            jennydoe posted at 7:32 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            [love]

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:51 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            jennydoe: Is shutting down the Government in order to deny sick people the care that they need to stay alive:

            (a) Cruel,
            (b) Sadistic,
            (c) Savage,
            (d) Brutal,
            (e) Vicious,
            (f) Inhuman,
            (g) Barbarous,
            (h) Malevolent,
            (i) Despicable,
            (j) Heartless,
            (k) Monstrous,
            (l) Business As Usual for the GOP, or
            (m) All of the Above.

            HTC: Did you intend that to be a trick question? After all, that's exactly what it is, since you failed to list the correct answer "(n) - None of the above."

            Let's be perfectly clear here: NO ONE is going to be denied healthcare if ObamaCare is defunded or even outright repealed. Why? Because no one has been since 1986, when EMTALA was enacted. If you don't have insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, or the personal funds to pay for your healthcare, you can go to anyone of a large number of public clinics, an ER or an urgent care clinic.

            So let's quit the B.S. and get down to business here. We can't find common ground if your side is always going to lie, misrepresent and call our side names such as anarchists, terrorists and mean-spirited Aholes. I mean, your side's rhetoric has been COMPLETELY OVER THE TOP!

            A majority of Americans don't want ObamaCare. They didn't want it when the Democrats first rammed it down our throats and they don't want it now. You can twist the polls all you want by pointing out that they don't want it defunded IF it would mean a shutdown of other government services, but that doesn't mean they want ObamaCare.

            And let's face it, IT TAKES TWO PARTIES TO MAKE A SHUTDOWN! Either side could 'blink' to avoid it. Your side is lying and misrepresenting the situation when you try to put a possible shutdown exclusively on the GOP.

            So please drop the fake charity act and your false claim to the high moral ground, especially when you've previously claimed that you don't want to live at anyone else's expense, which is what ObamaCare is about in spades.

            Obama and his party told us that ObamaCare would achieve three major goals: (1) It would reduce the cost of healthcare; (2) It would provide insurance coverage for 40 million Americans currently without it; and (3) It would ensure that, if you had a plan and/or a doctor you liked, you could keep them and keep them for life, with the new 'patient protections' that the ACA would contain.

            But ObamaCare has ALREADY FAILED ON ALL THREE OBJECTIVES!

            Surveys are now showing that health insurance costs are going up more than 25% over all, with some folks seeing rate increases as high as 700%! On average, men under 40 will see a 99% increase and women a 55% increase.

            Current projections from several sources are now suggesting that only another 2-3 million MIGHT be covered, once ObamaCare is fully in effect.

            And the news has been filled for some time with countless reports of people who are actually being forced to give up the coverage they liked and even the doctor they liked, because he/she wasn't covered by the plan they were forced to move to.

            When ANYTHING fails so miserably at ALL of its stated goals, the WISE man abandons it and moves on to exploring other potential solutions, which is exactly what the GOP and a majority of Americans want to do.

            Your party - the Democratic Party - is vainly and egotistically clinging to something that's an abject failure, and only because it's their 'legacy.' What narcissists and elitists! And they're prepared to shut down government because of their inflated egos and flawed thinking.

            They should never have "passed it, in order to see what's in it." It is THEY who painted themselves into this corner! Or should I say, drew a red line?

            You want compromise?

            The GOP has already given the president his asked-for tax increase on the promise of spending cuts which he and his party have since refused to discuss. The House-passed Continuing Resolution gave him his requested 8.5% INCREASE in federal spending, cutting out NOTHING except funding for ObamaCare, which most Americans don't want.

            It's time for YOUR side to give something meaningful to the process, but all I see is Democratic game playing, not real leadership and honest discussion.

            As one option, the GOP has suggested funding it, but amending the CR so that individuals will have the same option that Obama illegally gave to BIG CORPORATIONS; that is, the option to ignore their respective mandates in the ACA for a period of one year.

            That give us more time to sort things out and fix what might be fixable. It's also only fair, particularly since your side has long pretended to be for the little guy while claiming that it is Republicans who protect big business. Oh, but Obama has threatened to veto any CR that reaches his desk with a waiver on the personal mandate included.

            Seems it's Obama and HIS party who are actually favoring big business over the individual!

            Delaying both mandates for a year also gives the American people the chance to vote next year on whether they really want ObamaCare or want it repealed once and for all.

            You and your party aren't afraid to let the people vote on it, are you?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:32 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:02 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013

            IABD- As you mentioned before, you are agnostic. As a devote libertarian conservative does that make you a Christian libertarian by default?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:02 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: "In the Libertarian world the strong dominate the weak, the rich dominate the poor, and large piles of capital become larger by sucking up smaller piles. That is simply the nature of the “free market” if it is left to run without the strong hand of government insuring justice and supporting the needs and aspirations of the poor. That this is indeed the proper role and function of government is proven throughout the Bible, because rulers and nations that failed in this responsibility were judged and punished by God." - Peter D. Goodgame

            HTC: You and Peter 'Goodgame' know nothing about Libertarians; otherwise, you'd know that libertarians are staunchly opposed to anyone being victimized by anyone else. They would not tolerate a world where the strong ruled the weak, nor one where the rich raped everyone else.

            Living at someone else's expense ('legal' or illegal plunder) is anathema to libertarians; however, it is the heart and soul of your beloved Democratic Party, which this year will rape the real producers in this country to the tune of 2.7 TRILLION DOLLARS, in order to give it to those who did nothing to earn it, partly in hopes of securing their votes.

            It is an immoral, pernicious and economically unsustainable game that you and your ilk play, as you attempt to suave your consciences (and I'm really stretching here in even crediting you with one) that you're actually the good guys in spite of God's commandment "Thou shalt not steal." You think that because you, like the cowards that you are, direct government to do the stealing instead of having the guts to pull a gun on us yourselves, that it is somehow sanitized of its incredible immorality.

            And before you decide to use the Old Testament as a guidebook to how our government should operate, never forget that Judah always had a king with far more wealth and power than any of his subjects. Does that mean that democratic forms of government are against God's will?


             
          • JBSTONE posted at 8:44 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Jenny stole it here..............


            http://alangraysonemails.tumblr.com/post/62360156635/the-shutdown-never-in-bin-ladens-wildest-dreams

             
          • kohana posted at 8:31 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109


            Pete posted at 4:43 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013

            [thumbup]

            jennydoe, if you believe that twaddle you wrote, which I don't believe you composed, you are even more ignorant of how the government works than I thought.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:32 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            In the Old Days, People Thought Healing Was a Good Thing.

            “Nothing man has ever done to man in the horrible caprice of power and cruelty, exceeds his self-inflicted punishment.” Charles Dickens, Barnaby Rudge

            America is the strongest nation on Earth, the strongest nation that the world has ever seen. America is so strong that the worst things that ever happen to us are the things that we do to ourselves.

            Or the things that the Teahadist D.C. Republicans do to all of us. They want to cut our noses, to spite their faces. They want to shut down our government.

            And why are the Tea Party Republicans so desperate to burden the body politic of America with this self-inflicted wound? Just to “de-fund” Obamacare, and make sure that 50 million Americans cannot see a doctor when they are sick.

            These are some of the points that Alan Grayson made on national TV a few weeks ago, discussing the possible shutdown of the U.S. Government, by the U.S. Government. Listen up:

            Cenk Uygur: Congressman Grayson, you know, policy-wise, I’m sure you don’t want the government to shut down. It has a lot of consequences. People might not be paid their Social Security, you might not be able to pay the FBI, et cetera, et cetera. On the other hand, politically, God, wouldn’t the Republicans be doing you guys [the Democrats] an enormous favor?

            Congressman Alan Grayson: Yes, they would. And I think that it would be the end of the Republican Party as we know it. But let’s talk a little bit about how we’ve come to this point. What Obamacare actually does is that it extends health insurance coverage to 50 million Americans who didn’t have it before now. And in addition to that, it makes health coverage affordable by very simple things like letting buyers pool their buying power through these exchanges, and coming up with transparent form contracts for insurance, so that you can get all the coverage you think you’re getting, without becoming a master of the fine print. Simple things like that. And [Republicans] are so far against letting poor, sick people see a doctor, that the Republican Party, many in the Republican Party, are willing to shut down the American government in order to prevent that from happening. They are so incessantly bent on seeing to it that there’s no healthcare for 50 million Americans that they willing to go that far to do it. That’s crazy. That is absolutely crazy. You know, [Congressman] Barney Frank used to have a bumper sticker that he circulated inside the [House Democratic] Caucus saying, “Democrats may not be perfect, but Republicans, they’re crazy.” And that really is crazy. Osama Bin Laden, in his wildest dreams, never could have dreamed of shutting down the American government, and here the Republican Party is going to do it for him. For his ghost. And for the sake of what? To make absolutely certain that sick people can’t see a doctor? It’s crazy.

            Quick quiz:

            Is shutting down the Government in order to deny sick people the care that they need to stay alive:

            (a) Cruel,
            (b) Sadistic,
            (c) Savage,
            (d) Brutal,
            (e) Vicious,
            (f) Inhuman,
            (g) Barbarous,
            (h) Malevolent,
            (i) Despicable,
            (j) Heartless,
            (k) Monstrous,
            (l) Business As Usual for the GOP, or
            (m) All of the Above.

             
          • Pete posted at 7:29 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            IABD...If Bastiat says the sun rises in the east and sets in the west does that make it less than true? If Obama says the same thing, does that make it more than true? I suggest you do a study on it and let us know.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:28 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR5tunQ8C_0

            Part 5 Who are the Birchers today. - by Claire Conner

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:15 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            "In the Libertarian world the strong dominate the weak, the rich dominate the poor, and large piles of capital become larger by sucking up smaller piles. That is simply the nature of the “free market” if it is left to run without the strong hand of government insuring justice and supporting the needs and aspirations of the poor. That this is indeed the proper role and function of government is proven throughout the Bible, because rulers and nations that failed in this responsibility were judged and punished by God." - Peter D. Goodgame

            http://www.redmoonrising.com/mammon.htm

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:40 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Pete posted at 5:00 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013

            ― Frédéric Bastiat the gnostic author of a French book "The Law" wrote it to justify individualism, propertarianism and condemn the socialism of charity and the evils of lending money without credit. To the gnostics Orignal sin is merely our ignorance when we were born into this world as individuals or divine ba$tards. Bastiat using his gnostic powers would claim that all knowledge is found within us and we are immortal beings. Rugged individualists would therefore identify with this movement and claim they would not require schools, teachers or churches. Are you also as all knowing as HTC? The purpose of the French Revolution was to show the world that life, liberty and the pursuit of justice was for all--Not just a chosen few.


            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz-3fGiLwqk

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:12 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://aattp.org/watch-protesters-fight-back-against-neo-nazis-trying-to-take-over-tiny-north-dakota-town-video/

             
          • Pete posted at 5:00 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            HighTechCowboy posted at 11:20 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013

            Yep.

            “The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else.”

            ― Frédéric Bastiat

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 4:57 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Alert.....Just released....

            http://www.ipcc.ch/news_and_events/docs/ar5/press_release_ar5_wgi_en.pdf

             
          • Pete posted at 4:43 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            who new posted at 9:08 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013

            re. Peter Wehner

            Now wait a minute...I thought we weren't to assume that having a "D" in front of your name guaranteed a lock-step vote. I guess Cruz put a stake through the heart of that fallacy huh? I wonder if anyone was paying attention?

            Second, since when does one do the right thing only when guaranteed success? That sounds like a decidedly liberal point of view...one that guarantees outcome instead of opportunity. Cruz gave everyone the opportunity to do the right thing...the fact that they didn't, doesn't reflect badly on Cruz...it reflects badly on them.

            Third, what can be more "firmly grounded in reality" than allowing politicians to define themselves by their vote? What can be more anti-utopian, empirical, and prudent, than allowing a persons actions to trump their words?

            Last, this wasn't a low point for genuine conservatives, this showed us who ARE the genuine conservatives...and that is why folks are enraged, because they were indeed, "led to believe something that was simply not true" and now they know, most Republicans don't have a conservative bone in their bodies.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 4:41 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Americans Against The Tea Party is a group committed to exposing the Tea Party’s lies, violence, racism, ignorance, intolerance, bigotry, and corporatist fascist efforts to subvert our democratic process – and we are organizing to defeat Tea Party/GOP candidates on ballots everywhere.

            http://aattp.org/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 4:36 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            For recovering Tea Party members and Republicans who aren't quite sure why your party has failed you as an individual voter, please bookmark the following website to stay mentally balanced.

            http://aattp.org/watch-daughter-of-john-birch-society-cult-members-destroy-the-tea-party/

            You can find part 1 and 2 of the series on Youtube as well as a wealth of information at:

            http://aattp.org

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 1:35 pm on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            re; HTC 11:20 - Yes, indeed. Chairman Obama's "transformation" of America is working. Employment down, prices up, more people on welfare and food stamps. Yup, his agenda is proceeding.[sad]

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:20 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            A record 90 million Americans are no longer part of the work force. Clearly, Democrats love poor people SO much, they're making more of them!

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:13 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: Don't hold your breath waiting for that outcome. It isn't going to happen.
            ------

            I did start the sentence with "Now if.......". As you know, when playing in the futures market, economic or political, it's best to hedge one's bets. I have.
            And I'm very aware of the boondoogle called the Cost of Medicine in America, and the 1/2 socialized-1/2 capitalist nature of the beast, going on 5 decades. But I appreciate you explaining it, so others may understand your point of view.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:57 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            who new: Ted Cruz and the Conservatism of Illusion and Deception

            HTC: Another way to look at this: It was a brilliant political move which helps to put Cruz at the forefront of the conservative/Tea Party movement within the GOP which also now makes a part of the Senate record his detailed criticisms and warnings regarding the dangers of ObamaCare, most, if not all, of which will soon be proven correct.

            Whether something was foolhardy and delusional can only be accurately assessed in relation to the real objective.

            If Cruz is considering a presidential run in 2016, his 'filibuster' was a stroke of genius.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:14 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: Now if all the young, healthy males running around the country get rid of their 'bullet proof' illusions and shell out some money every month for a health policy, my rate as an individual buying in the open market probably won't go up beyond the current 5 to 10% yearly rate of medical inflation.

            HTC: Don't hold your breath waiting for that outcome. It isn't going to happen.

            To begin with, the young are going to reject ObamaCare on a wholesale basis because (1) Their rates go up as much as 700% (in order to subsidize the old and the sick); (2) The ObamaCare fine is MUCH MUCH cheaper and they can buy insurance only when they actually need it because of an accident or illness, as the ACA mandates that the newly purchased insurance must cover any preexisting condition; and (3) they have high unemployment and the lowest average income.

            Ever wonder why healthcare and health insurance costs, after decades of rising at roughly the same rate as inflation, began rising much faster than the rate of inflation in the '60s and have continued their accelerated climb ever since? That kind of price curve is ALWAYS indicative of government perversion of free markets and has been seen in housing costs, education costs, and energy costs, amongst other things.

            When you subsidize something and/or artificially increase demand or reduce supply, the price always goes up.

            Healthcare costs have been skyrocketing because of government interference in the health care industry; in particular, (1) the introduction and rapid expansion of government 'insurance' programs (e.g., Medicare and Medicaid) starting in the mid '60s; (2) EMTALA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act), enacted in 1986 which requires ERs and urgent care clinics to treat anyone who crawls into their facility, regardless of ability to pay; (3) Massive underpayments to healthcare providers by Medicare and Medicaid which have cost-shifted the hundreds of billions of dollars a year difference to the rest of us, and (4) Intrusive government regulation of the insurance industry, which frequently hampered competition, while also mandating an ever growing list of benefits which had to be provided.

            ObamaCare only makes this far worse by (1) Adding even more benefit 'rights' to the list of things insurers must cover, including preexisting conditions; (2) Putting even more people under Medicaid, which now only compensates providers at an average rate of 30% of actual cost; (3) Stealing $1T from Medicare, further reducing its reimbursement rates to providers; (4) Taxing healthcare providers, insurance companies, medical device manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies, who will simply add those taxes to the patient's bill; and (5) reduced payments to healthcare providers when they fail to meet "patient outcome goals" arbitrarily set by government bureaucrats.

            It is already difficult, if not impossible, for Medicaid recipients to find healthcare providers who will accept their government 'insurance'; as a result, these people will be going to emergency rooms, where EMTALA guarantees them treatment. Because of this healthcare redirection to ERs, we're seeing wait times of several hours in many urban areas and patient deaths due to the overwhelming of ER staff and the difficulty of doing recursive triage in such an environment.

            Were also seeing more employees having their work hours reduced so that their employer doesn't trigger the employer mandate, and 77% of the new jobs created this year were also part-time jobs. While Obama has illegally and unconstitutionally delayed the employer mandate, he has not done so with the personal mandate; hence, these part-timers, who won't be able to afford buying their own insurance, will either pay the much lower fine or possibly qualify under Medicaid's broadened eligibility requirements. In any event, they won't be participating in the insurance exchanges, will be going to the ER for their healthcare and will just represent another drag on the system which will increase its costs to everyone else.

            If we want to reduce healthcare costs and avoid the collapse of our healthcare system, we have to eliminate the third-party payor system and put patients back in control of their healthcare via something like the very popular HSA programs. We need to let the free markets decide what kinds of policies are offered and what their benefits will be. We need to eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, and EMTALA and go back to the former system of charity hospitals for the poor and indigent.

            Healthcare is NOT a right and public funding of healthcare is just another immoral example of legalized plunder.

            MOST importantly, we need to immediately repeal ObamaCare. If Obama really wants to do something useful to control healthcare costs, he could start by doing something he's actually empowered to do by the Constitution's ICC: sweep aside state barriers which currently prevent the realization of a truly national health insurance marketplace.


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:20 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            The more one surveys the landscape, a government shutdown quickly becomes more appealing:

            Federal regulations hammer timber industry

            The Rough and Ready Sawmill was an institution in southern Oregon for 91 years. Its lumber helped fuel the post-World War II building boom and settle the rural West. Now, it sits empty, the last of 22 mills in Josephine County to shut down for good, signaling the end of an era.

            For Ivan Cross, it's the end of the only job he's ever had.

            "I haven't drawn an unemployment check in 43-and-a-half years," said Cross. "Now, that's what I do for a living."

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/26/timber-industry-suffers-as-loggers-blame-federal-regs-for-lost-jobs/?intcmp=latestnews

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:14 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:36 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.
            [smile]
            ----------------------------------------
            mooseberryinn posted at 8:31 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.
            "......Obama said the "tax" wouldn't increase, not one dime."

            It's not really a "tax", unless your fishing with the Supreme Court Justices, then it's "like a tax, but different"...........Now if all the young, healthy males running around the country get rid of their 'bullet proof' illusions and shell out some money every month for a health policy, my rate as an individual buying in the open market probably won't go up beyond the current 5 to 10% yearly rate of medical inflation. However, all those corporate plans and union plans that I have been subsidizing all these years are mostly likely going to jump up to what individuals have been paying for decades. Seems fair to me!?!?????

             
          • who new posted at 9:08 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            Ted Cruz and the Conservatism of Illusion and Deception

            Peter Wehner | Sept 26.2013

            There are several things I found problematic about the effort by Cruz and Company to “defund” the Affordable Care Act (ACA), but perhaps what was most alarming, from a conservative perspective, is that it was an effort utterly detached from reality.

            As I’ve argued several times before, this whole gambit was based on the fiction, perpetrated by Cruz and others, that the Affordable Care Act could be defunded (without even a single Democratic vote, according to Cruz). That was never true. That goal was an illusion. A mirage. A delusion. And surely Mr. Cruz, an intelligent and well-educated man, knew it. There was simply no way a Democratic Senate and Barack Obama would abolish his signature domestic achievement. And defunding the ACA would require just that.

            No matter. Senator Cruz, along with several of his colleagues, convinced many grassroots conservatives and Tea Party members that the end game was to put a stake through the heart of ObamaCare, once and for all. If you sided with them, you were a principled conservative who opposed ObamaCare; if you were against them, you were part of the “surrender caucus.” This was cast as a Moment of Truth.

            Now the whole thing is being exposed for what it was – a game. And the (inevitable) failure by Cruz and the others will leave these people crushingly disappointed and enraged. They were led to believe something that was simply not true – and many of them still don’t know they were misled.

            Beyond all that is the damage this inflicts on conservatism. Conservatism, after all, is a political philosophy that is (or should be) anti-utopian, empirical, prudent, somewhat modest in its expectations and firmly grounded in reality. That’s certainly not all that conservatism is, but those elements comprise it. Yet here we are, with a large part of the conservative movement having taken a journey through the looking glass.

            This whole episode was a low moment for genuine conservatism.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:01 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Models of misinformation -- climate reports melt under scrutiny
            By Marlo Lewis, Ph.D.
            September 26, 2013

            A last-ditch effort to refute climate “skeptics”—people unconvinced that we need to spend trillions to reshape our economies to halt or slow “climate change”-- has failed.

            Last week, the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) published a study by 13 prestigious atmospheric scientists that supposedly provides “clear evidence for a discernible human influence on the thermal structure of the atmosphere.”

            The NAS researchers pointedly echo the famous declaration by the United Nation-sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, that the “balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate.” With this new study, the authors claim to clinch the case. The IPCC, we’re supposed to believe, has been right all along.

            With the IPCC now issuing the first segment of its latest mammoth study on the same topic, readers should take the NAS pronouncement with a large grain of salt—and the IPCC report too. This is an attempt to change the subject and ignore the elephant in the room: the crisis in “consensus” climate science arising from the growing mismatch between model-predicted warming and observed warming.

            The urgent issue in climate science today is not whether man-made global warming is real but whether the climate models that scientists use to predict it are realistic enough to assess future climate change and inform public policy. And scientists themselves are pointing this out.

            The real, observable evidence increasingly shows that the models, which are no more than computer simulations based on the data and assumptions that scientists currently think are relevant, are way out of line with the changes that scientists are able to measure. And the gap is widening.

            Consider some recent science on these matters.

            John Christy, a distinguished climate scientist and director of the Earth System Science Center at the University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH) found that all 73 computer model runs performed by the IPCC as of June 1, 2013 overshoot the observed warming of the tropical atmosphere during the previous 34 years.

            And despite the fact that global carbon dioxide emissions are increasing more rapidly than most models assumed (due largely to industrial growth in India and China), the temperatures recorded by the NASA-supported Remote Sensing Systems shows no warming in the earth’s middle atmosphere, or troposphere, over the past 16-plus years.

            German climatologist Hans von Storch has found that IPCC climate models project warming trends as low as actual recorded observations only 2% of the time.

            The monthly journal Nature Climate Change reports that over 20 years (1993-2012), the warming trend computed from 117 climate model simulations (0.3°C per decade) is more than twice the observed trend (0.14°C/decade). Over the most recent 15 years (1998-2012), the computer-simulated trend (0.21°C/decade) is more than four times the observed trend (0.05°C/decade)—a trend that is pretty close to a flat line.

            These are huge inconsistencies, and they matter because less warming means smaller climate impacts, and less ostensible need for radical changes in the way we live to deal with them.

            The NAS researchers briefly note the discrepancy between warming projections and observations but then ignore its implications.

            Rather than confront the failure of increasingly overstretched climate models, the NAS study emphasizes the agreement between satellite observations and the model-projected combination of warming in the troposphere and cooling in the atmospheric layer above it, the lower stratosphere.

            It’s the match between the computer-projected “fingerprint” and the observed “thermal structure” that supposedly demonstrates a “discernible human influence” on global climate.

            But there’s less to this finding than meets the eye, because according to the study, the “human influence” cooling the lower stratosphere is predominantly the presence of man-made ozone depleting substances, not greenhouse gases.

            In fact, a study cited by the NAS researchers, found that the “influence of greenhouse gases” on stratospheric temperatures “is not yet clearly identifiable.” Contrary to appearances, they have not really found the smoking gun of man-made global warming.

            But even if the NAS study did finally find the model-projected greenhouse “fingerprint” in the atmospheric data, it would not refute those who have long argued that the models are alarmist and project too much warming.

            After all, few prominent skeptics of the sky-is-falling school of global warming actually deny that man-made climate change is real.

            What they doubt is that climate change is a “planetary emergency” brought on by rapidly rising projected temperatures, that reducing carbon dioxide emissions would detectably benefit public health and welfare, and that mankind has nothing to fear from carbon taxes, cap-and-trade, renewable energy mandates, and other forms of centralized energy planning.

            Those radical forms of social engineering, it turns out, are the real short-term threat of climate change. And the science-policy community that is pushing them is substituting heated rhetoric for real data that doesn’t support their agenda.

            Marlo Lewis, Ph.D. is a Senior Fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:52 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            UN Arms Treaty will be menace to US for years to come
            By Theodore Bromund
            September 25, 2013

            Secretary of State John Kerry’s signature of the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty Wednesday was a serious error, one that will have far-reaching consequences for American foreign policy and American sovereignty. Those consequences will be even worse because the Senate, which has signaled many times that it is opposed to the treaty, will likely have no real opportunity to reject it.

            It’s commonly said that the Senate has to provide its advice and consent to any treaty – commonly known as ratifying it – before it can take effect. That’s true, but there’s a loophole. Once the U.S. signs a treaty, we hold ourselves bound not to violate the treaty’s “object and purpose.”

            In other words, we obey in practice treaties that the Senate has never ratified.

            This rule is an old one, and it used to make some sense. It would be dishonorable to sign a treaty with another country, do all the things prohibited by the treaty, and then ratify it. But that was a different era.

            Today, treaties are not just about international conduct. They seek to regulate how we raise our children, how we treat the disabled, and how we manage our firearms market.

            As a result, the old requirement not to violate the “object and purpose” of a signed treaty has become a way to evade the need for Senate ratification. And in the case of the Arms Trade Treaty, the problem is even worse. The administration will argue that it already has all the powers it needs to enforce the treaty.

            In the Gun Control Act of 1968 and the Arms Export Control Act, Congress gave the Executive Branch the power to control both the import and export of firearms – indeed, of weapons of all kinds. This power is virtually unfettered. All the president has to do is to assert that a particular firearm is not suitable for “sporting” purposes and, under the 1968 Act, he can ban its import.

            We have recently seen an example of this with the executive actions banning the import of Korean War vintage M1 Garand rifles, which the White House justified as a gun control measure. And since many U.S. gun manufacturers rely on imported parts and components, or financing and insurance from abroad, the Treaty also gives other countries new opportunities to affect the U.S. firearms market.

            But it is the Treaty’s vague norms that pose the biggest long-term problem. At the heart of the Treaty are terms like “international humanitarian law” and “international human rights law.” By committing itself to uphold these terms, the U.S. is binding itself to meet requirements that it does not define. That will affect not only our domestic firearms market but our foreign policy.

            Over the coming years, the treaty’s proponents will seek to expand what those vague terms include. Since the U.N. has already defined gun control as a human right, they will not have to work very hard to make it part of the treaty. By signing the Treaty, the U.S. has tied itself to a conveyor belt: it is no longer in control of where it is going.

            Opponents of the treaty are not powerless. Sen. Jerry Moran (R-Kan.), Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.), and other colleagues, along with Rep. Mike Kelly (R-Penn.) in the House, have made it clear that Congress is deeply skeptical about the treaty.

            They can continue to voice their opposition, including by calling for hearings. In the end, a U.S. president can ‘unsign’ the treaty.

            All of those actions are wise responses to a serious error by the Obama administration, one that will be a menace for years to come.

            Ted R. Bromund, Ph.D. is a Senior Research Fellow in Anglo-American Relations at the Heritage Foundation.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:36 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123 posted at 4:31 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013

            This one was a marvelous application of taxpayer funds:

            Bert Tolkamp, Marie Haskell, Fritha Langford, David Roberts, and Colin Morgan, for making two related discoveries: First, that the longer a cow has been lying down, the more likely that cow will soon stand up; and Second, that once a cow stands up, you cannot easily predict how soon that cow will lie down again.

            "Are Cows More Likely to Lie Down the Longer They Stand?" Bert J. Tolkamp, Marie J. Haskell, Fritha M. Langford, David J. Roberts, Colin A. Morgan, Applied Animal Behaviour Science, vol. 124, nos. 1-2, 2010, pp. 1–10.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 8:31 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Well, that just can't be. Chairman Obama said the "tax" wouldn't increase, not one dime. Everyone could keep their present coverage and rates would be lower. And, we all know he never lies.[beam]

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:55 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Study: ObamaCare rates to soar for people of medium income

            "The Manhattan Institute analyzed rates around the country and found that for people of medium income, costs will soar -- up by as much as 99 percent for men, and up about 55 percent for women."

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/27/despite-administration-assurances-some-rates-may-soar-under-obamacare/

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 7:26 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Hey, that sounds like a good project for our gov't to spend a few billion on.[beam]

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:31 am on Fri, Sep 27, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HighTechCowboy posted at 10:13 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.
            "The 3.8 Trillion Dollar question: Which is worse? The government shutting down or the government staying open?"
            ----------------------
            "Scientists from Sweden and South Africa won the joint prize in astronomy and biology for their discovery that dung beetles navigate and orient dung balls using the Milky Way as a compass.

            “The principles we are uncovering in dung beetle navigation may be useful in the design of autonomous vehicles and robots, although this is likely to be few years off,” Ig Nobel-recipient Eric Warrant from the University of Lund told The Guardian."
            http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/37485/title/Science-with-a-Sense-of-Humor/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:17 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Bronco posted at 7:26 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013

            Have you checked out Arlo Guthrie's father Woody's old guitar. He knew how to handle corporate fascists and exercise his second amendment dearly.

            http://i.huffpost.com/gen/812739/thumbs/o-WOODY-GUTHRIE-facebook.jpg.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:55 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 10:13 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013

            Only an anarchist would wish to shut down the government. It's time for you to pay more taxes like us 99 percent have been doing.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:46 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Teenage boy makes his own nuclear reactor in folk's garage.

            http://www.nbcnews.com/video/rock-center/52207962#52207962

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:13 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            The 3.8 Trillion Dollar question: Which is worse? The government shutting down or the government staying open?

             
          • Bronco posted at 7:26 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328


            HighTechCowboy posted at 4:12 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            [thumbup][thumbup][thumbup]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:24 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 3:12 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013

            Fortunately not all corporations are multi-national private equity firms such as Koch Industries and Glencorp. Does your LLC include any stock options for your employees?
            Do you operate your business according to the golden rule or with an itchy trigger finger
            with a midas touch?

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:03 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            HighTechCowboy posted at 4:12 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            ...............true, nice juxtaposition...........[thumbup]

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 4:12 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Re; HTC - 3:12pm. Ya know, I'm thinking there's a wee bit of sarcasm there. I just can't imagine how anyone could complain about all the gov't jobs Comrade/Chairman obama and the regime have "created". But... here's the thing - what happens when there are more people working for the gov't than there are people actually producing something and paying taxes to support the gov't workers??? Oh, and now, folks in Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Montana are complaining about the lost timber industry jobs. Imagine that. Why can't they just be happy with collecting unemployment and food stamps for the rest of their lives?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:12 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Thought for the day:

            We are told NOT to judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics.

            BUT...

            We are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:12 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            It's a beautiful day posted at 2:49 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            Yes, that must be it. It's corporate America that's destroying us and wiping out the middle class, not government which consumes half of the private sector's wealth. Apparently we can live with cancer, even when it consumes half our economic body.

            Oh, save us, King Obama. Please create millions more government jobs and print more money to fund those jobs, so that ALL of us may have a cushy federal job, from which we can never be fired, have our ObamaCare fully paid for and enjoy a retirement that hard-working citizens could never dream of.

            Yes, you are the new messiah.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:49 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Currently a Swiss owned company named Glencore owns CFAC (Columbia Falls Aluminum Company) and operates with reduced electricity price from Hungry Horse Dam with little trickle-down benefit to the Flathead Valley. The CEO of Glencore is now Ivan Glasenberg. Below is a hyperlink to see how Glencore is now stealing Africa.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mAEW7U_9vc

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 1:05 pm on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Well now, Chairman Obama is telling folks that obamacare isn't hurting jobs???? Must be he's not listening to any employers or unions? Hmm, He must be correct of course, otherwise some folks might say he's lying, and we know he's just as honest as...... um, Pelosi, yeah, just as honest as Pelosi. (snicker)[beam]

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:27 am on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/37638/title/Image-of-the-Day--Bat-Versus-Toad/

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:38 am on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-25/petrobras-sees-dutch-tax-benefits-for-african-operations.html
            "Petrobras, as Brazil’s state-run producer is known, is relocating staff ranging from geophysicists to financial administrators to Dutch offices that will handle its African joint venture ....."
            "In the Netherlands, one of 30 countries with which Brazil has double-taxation agreements, Petrobras would pay a 25 percent tax rate compared with 35 percent in Brazil and 40 percent in the U.S., according to KPMG data."

            If one reads the whole article, one is caught between some serious head scratching and just plain old slamming one's head into the table. A state run company moving it's taxes off shore......incredible.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 9:12 am on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            It is very distressing to find the legislators (not all) even think in terms of "social engineering" via taxation. But, it is a tool of the regime, and like Pandora's box, once loosed it spreads like a disease. Cigarette taxes are the most obvious, but there are legislators who want to drive "conservation" via gas/fuel taxes, or electric usage taxes. Part of the problem, is that so many legislators are wealthy enough that they simply don't care that working people will bear the burden of these "helpful" taxes.
            Good post Pete.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:36 am on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Pete posted at 8:26 am on Thu, Sep 26, 2013 [thumbup][thumbup]

             
          • Pete posted at 8:28 am on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Meanwhile the STATE tightens its grip on the throat of the American people.

            "Obama on Obamacare: “We did raise taxes on some things.”"

            http://atr.org/obama-obamacare-raise-taxes-things-a7883#ixzz2g0cNLi4t

             
          • Pete posted at 8:26 am on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            I don't think Democrat/Republican collusion has ever been clearer than in the last couple of weeks. A federal tax structure that minimized the ability of political ideologues to use said system as a hammer for social engineering and/or part of a spoils system would have my support. Of course that statement is in itself an ideological statement and illustrates the fact that the REAL battle for the hearts, minds, and wallets of Americans is between STATE authoritarians who cross all political lines, and libertarian minded individuals.

             
          • bill39 posted at 6:38 am on Thu, Sep 26, 2013.

            bill39 Posts: 1052

            HTC: It is good people/societies which produce good government; NOT the other way around.

            Right. Since it's voters who create a good or bad govt.

            HTC: It is the progressives, now firmly in control of the Democratic Party, who have spent nearly 100 years stealing from the American people, perverting their institutions, and ultimately making much of the population slaves to the state.

            Right again. RINO's and elite republicans would love total control the republican party.

            HTC: He is, however, pathetically ignorant and shows no desire to remedy his ignorance;..................

            And again. Why should they remedy their ignorance when think tanks in their party can do all their THINKING.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:24 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://aattp.org/watch-daughter-of-john-birch-society-cult-members-destroy-the-tea-party/

            You can find part 1 and 2 of the series on Youtube...

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:44 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-video-that-koch-brothers-and-tea.html

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I8ap8y16RY

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:28 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            @rls - http://www.blueridgemuse.com/node/3629

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:17 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:48 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            http://sobran.com/articles/tyranny.shtml

            IABD - This is a case where we should shoot the messenger as well as the message. At the bottom of the above hyperlink states e-mail subscription to columns by Joe Sobran are provided by the Fitzgerald Griffin Foundation. The Fitzgerald Griffin Foundation is listed as a White Nationalist hate group with headquarters in Vienna, Austria. Check out this link below and do a search for Fitzgerald Griffin Foundation.

            http://www.the-richmonder.com/2011_03_01_archive.html

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 8:33 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:48 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            And let us not forget your mentor President Nixon who did away with the gold and silver standard in 1971.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ05X8_tpgI

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 7:48 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Here is a very sad article in that it tells, "How Tyranny Came to America'. This article is directly related to Frank's and is well worth reading. Interestingly, Hamilton is mention several times. It tracks the events that have led to the trashing of the Constitution. Well worth reading if you are up to it. I liked it for its clarity and subject. I think you will as well. RLS

            http://sobran.com/articles/tyranny.shtml

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:43 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 6:27 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013

            HTC - "Oh yeah, with the wages paid to him/her by their employer, a wage which would undoubtedly be higher because of the absence of any corporate income tax on his/her employer."

            IABD - In an economy where the dollar is no longer backed by gold and silver you jest. You are merely playing musical chairs on the Titanic with your crew. They will never know when they show up to work one day and find you have bailed out and left the country to the Cayman Islands.

             
          • HRH Prince Michael posted at 6:38 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HRH Prince Michael Posts: 104

            It's a Beautiful Day (but, Hungry Horse Damned) posted on Weds, Sept. 25 2013

            HRHPM - Fittingly, did you notice the unintended 13's in my original post?
            Indeed, a 13.SEVEN: As goes California, so goes the "nation".

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:27 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: A VAT is like a sales tax in that ultimately only the end consumer is taxed.

            HTC: And how does the consumer pay that tax while making a purchase? Oh yeah, with the wages paid to him/her by their employer, a wage which would undoubtedly be higher because of the absence of any corporate income tax on his/her employer.

            Additionally, while the income tax isn't under the consumer's control, how much VAT they pay can be entirely controlled by their individual's purchasing decisions; thus, it is a tax which greatly enhances the liberty of the individual, where their financial decisions are concerned, and a tax which allows them to accumulate savings (wealth) without having to pay an income tax on the amounts being invested/saved.

            The latter advantage allows consumers to build household wealth at a much faster rate than they can today, which I would think you would regard as a GOOD thing.

            But a middle class which can make financial decisions freed from government meddling, and which can accumulate wealth which would eliminate the need for social spending, isn't likely to be supportive of a Democratic Party whose power and influence is based upon robbing them of that wealth in exchange for false security.

            You have labeled Dr. Spencer and I as "extremists" because we are for the maximum freedom of the individual, a level of freedom which the Founders intended for us all to enjoy. It is a level of freedom which would guarantee the healthiest of economies, the highest job creation rates and the easiest route to financial independence for all those who are willing to work for it.

            Because of your opposition to those things, I can only assume that you are for socialist tyranny.

            And you have the audacity to call me "treasonous."


             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:24 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HRH Prince Michael posted at 6:13 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013

            Get back to us when the Richter scale goes to 13....

             
          • HRH Prince Michael posted at 6:13 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HRH Prince Michael Posts: 104

            Off topic Alert
            Off Topic Alert
            Off Topic Alert

            Firstly, I humbly invite Everyone to please pray for all those
            afflicted by the catastrophic -7.7- earthquake in Pakistan.
            Please also recall, those affected by the earthquake -7.0- in Peru.

            The Seventh-Child, born in the Seventh-month, with a Seven-letter name,
            Son of,
            The Seventh-child, born in the Seventh-month, has ONE question
            for the Godless, Corrupt, and Immoral "Powers-that-won't-be" in
            Washington, DC - and ALL their -local- allies:
            Who's NEXT?

            The Declaration of 2008: www.all4webs.com/q/f/love4yahweh
            The Final Declaration (2009): www.all4webs.com/x/w/all4yahweh
            HRH Prince Michael of The House of David: www.flickr.com/photos/72265268@N08

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:03 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 5:02 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            The struggle for power and the cost of conscience for you as a supply-side economist is deceitful and treasonous. A VAT is like a sales tax in that ultimately only the end consumer is taxed.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:05 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            mooseberryinn: Ah well, filed under "told ya so".

            HTC: Unfortunately, we'll be paying VERY dearly for the satisfaction of being able to say "Told you so!"

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:02 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD [or maybe it should be IBAD]: A national sales tax was also called the "flat-tax". Aka--Herman Cain's 9-9-9 tax.

            HTC: A national sales tax, a flat-rate income tax ("flat tax") and Cain's 9-9-9 tax plan are not synonymous, but I'm not going to bother trying to educate you on the differences because I'd have better luck teaching a chipmunk to speak than ramming anything resembling the truth through your thick skull.

            You certainly have a rabid fixation on the Koch brothers and seek to discredit anyone even remotely connected to them in any way, simply on the basis of that association. This leads me to wonder who is sponsoring your idiotic posts or if you're simply a volunteer idiot for the left.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:54 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: I still can't figure out, after a 1000+ posts, if you [IABD] are an Anarchist or a Brat?

            HTC: I'm going with the obvious: he's an idiot.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:52 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: Mr. Foster is another dime-a-dozen intellectually dishonest progressive who twists and distorts the clear meaning of words, lifted from their context, in order to fabricate a meaning which simply wasn't intended.

            The Founders generally opposed mercantilism, where government-chartered corporations, working with private sector partners, exploited business opportunities, often injuring/exploiting individuals and frequently thwarting free enterprise and trade.

            That is not the same thing as hating corporations per se; in fact, they understood the importance of corporations and limited liability companies to capital investment and economic growth; but, in acknowledgement of the sovereignty of states over the federal government in all but the few areas described in the Constitution, they chose to let the states establish their own laws regarding incorporation and the formation of such limited liability companies.

            Apparently you're troubled by the SCOTUS decision in Citizens United; I'm not surprised, since that decision created a more level playing field in our political process and, if there's anything progressives hate, it's a level playing field.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 4:36 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Got to read an article from an Illinois watchdog group concerning Obama/demo-dummy care. Basically, the Demo-dummy ads aren't telling the whole truth, the people know it, and the numbers aren't good at all for the "care" that may be available. Hoo boy, the comments really insult our great and fearless "leader" Chairman Obama and his drones. Ah well, filed under "told ya so".[beam]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 4:21 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rob123 posted at 4:00 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013

            Neither. I just say no to Koch!

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 4:18 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            My second hyperlink posted previous at 4:10 pm should be noted as written by Dan Mitchell of the Cato Institute, another Koch funded think tanker.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 4:10 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            A national sales tax was also called the "flat-tax". Aka--Herman Cain's 9-9-9 tax.
            Herman Cain, funded by Koch Bros, Says “Let the Little Guys Pay Taxes (not the uber-rich) - See more at:

            http://angrybearblog.com/2011/10/herman-cain-funded-by-koch-bros-says.html#sthash.omBVQsqX.dpuf

            http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/10/13/whats-so-bad-about-a-flat-tax/the-beauty-of-the-flat-tax?scp=1&sq=Beale%20and%20flat%20tax&st=cse

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:00 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            It's a beautiful day posted at 3:14 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            I still can't figure out, after a 1000+ posts, if you are an Anarchist or a Brat?

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 3:41 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            I always liked what Milton Friedman said when confronted with such a vexing problem as our tax system when studying an alternative: "How could it be any worse?"

            So, use that when thinking about a future tax mechanism to run the country without a large IRS type bureau.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:38 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            What The Founding Fathers Thought About Corporations
            Author: Stephen D. Foster Jr. June 9, 2013

            http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/09/founding-fathers/

            IABD- You can bet that HTC is a Limited Liability Corporation that has the protection of declaring mental bankruptcy when the time comes.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:16 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: As you know, it can be used as a political weapon just like other forms of taxation, with sliding rates on particular items that are mind-numbing and oh-so political.

            HTC: How right you are. That's why I favor the greater transparency that comes with a national sales tax vs. a VAT.

            Rob123: Mom and Pop stores, unless they are specialty stores, get swamped with the paper work and fall behind the curve. One ends up with Mass Retailers and cute little Boutique stores. Of course, that is already happening with our current tax code, so.......?.......

            HTC: Software would easily allow Mom and Pop stores deal with a national sales tax. It isn't tax policies which have been driving those stores out of existence; it's a lack of competitiveness on every level: pricing, wages paid to employees, selection, product availability and customer service. In free markets, it's always been adapt or perish, just like it is in real live -- er, that is, like ti was before the Democrats built their welfare state.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:14 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            @Rob123, As I recall you voted as a good republican for Romney and being a gasoline convenience store operator would naturally support the Keystone XL pipeline for personal reasons. If you feel that living in a toxic cloud is the cool thing to do, go on bangin' your head and listen to the Rolling Stones strapped down in the old folk home's rockin' chair twanging your banjo occasionally to Stephen Foster's greatest hits.

            http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:33 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            It's a beautiful day posted at 2:13 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            I still didn't ask 'that' question, you did.

            And I never returned to Vietnam as a civilian, and since the missing booty was MPC(military payment certificates), it would be quite worthless, except for souvenir hunters...... I am sure old, rusty Zippo Lighters would fetch more.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:24 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law-getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:13 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rob123 posted at 11:52 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013 in a question to HTC.

            Rob123- "Any thoughts concerning a VAT tax?"

            Rob123 posted at 1:14 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.
            I didn't ask that question, You did

            IABD- Your toxic cloud is one of forgetfulness Rob123. Perhaps this a sign of dementia related to post-Vietnam trauma when you returned as a civilian and could not find your missing booty?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 1:14 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            It's a beautiful day posted at 12:24 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            I didn't ask that question, You did. And then answered it, in your own way.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq3YdpB6N9M [wink]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:44 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 11:59 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HTC- "To dismantle the welfare state is to dismantle the Democratic Party and they will fight that tooth and nail."

            IABD- To dismantle the corporate welfare state is to first dismantle the Tea Party but you and your chickenhawk cronies will fight that non-violently with lies and disinformation funded with dirty money from the Koch Brothers.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 12:30 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:42 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/forms-rates/rates/rates.htm

            Although I have been pro-VAT for decades, it probably won't happen. As you know, it can be used as a political weapon just like other forms of taxation, with sliding rates on particular items that are mind-numbing and oh-so political.

            The complexity is such, especially at retail, that if one has a number of stores all turning out good 'top line' numbers, one can hire a Business Major with a Law Degree to run the computer that does the pricing and collects the VAT, and after wages said person greatly enhances the Bottom Line. Mom and Pop stores, unless they are specialty stores, get swamped with the paper work and fall behind the curve. One ends up with Mass Retailers and cute little Boutique stores. Of course, that is already happening with our current tax code, so.......?.......

            And then the politics of a VAT tax and the influence of Special Interests.......In Europe, the VAT on Milk differs depending upon the feed given to the cow that is being milked, and in some countries, the location of said cows feeding........it's mind numbing all the little ins & outs and 'favorites', across the Retail Chain.

            For manufacturing, it's an absolute plus.......unless someone slides in a VAT of $00.00 for a whidget made with one certain Patented ingredient that only one manufacturer has........it's a game, out in the day-to-day world of naked self interest devoid of moral context. Or so it seems.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:24 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 12:03 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013

            Rob123 was asking you a question about VAT (value added taxes) the retailers, fuel dealers, etc. etc. add on as a hidden tax that the public ends up paying with every purchase. How do you propose to pull off a tax free society facade to the public and live in luxury scott free? Perhaps marry the Queen of England or maybe the Pope will share his throne with you after your gay marriage proposal is accepted by his holiness. Would you not enjoy this kind of economic Utopia?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 12:21 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HighTechCowboy posted at 12:03 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.
            HighTechCowboyPosts: 8504
            Rob123: ? We get it.....
            HTC: Are you sure? And who is "we"?
            -------------------------------
            "BOO!" [smile]

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:03 pm on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: ? We get it.....

            HTC: Are you sure? And who is "we"?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:59 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:42 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013

            A very well-written piece which so clearly describes our predicament that even a liberal should be able to understand it.

            I have long vacillated between a VAT and a national sales tax, In either case, I believe that our ENTIRE income tax system needs to be dissolved, both personal and corporate. In fact, I believe that we need to repeal the Sixteenth Amendment so that it an income tax can not be added to the VAT/Sales tax.

            If we have any chance of enacting either of these forms of taxation, it should only require a bit more effort to repeal the Sixteenth Amendment.

            I do have a slight bias for a national sales tax, over a VAT, because history shows that, as the various European countries each adopted the VAT, government spending as a share of GDP rose shortly thereafter. Average spending within the EU, as a percentage of GDP, is nearly a third higher than it is here in the U.S.

            I believe Europe's experience shows that we cannot rely upon the people and the media to keep government spending in check when it has a more hidden form of taxation at its disposal.

            A national sales tax is obvious to all who consume anything and is paid by all, including those living at the expense of others, thanks to our massive welfare state. It will be much harder to "feed the beast" when every retail transaction reminds the consumer of the heavy cost of government. The fast rise of online sales, fueled substantially by the desire of consumers to avoid state and local sales tax, is testament to the tax avoidance naturally triggered by our high tax state of existence.

            Of course, liberal Democrats will NEVER allow such a 'regressive' tax to replace the progressive income tax system because our massive welfare state, and the vote buying it has enabled, cannot long sustain itself when everyone, including its present beneficiaries, have skin in the game.

            To dismantle the welfare state is to dismantle the Democratic Party and they will fight that tooth and nail.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:52 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HighTechCowboy posted at 11:42 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.
            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:22 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.
            HighTechCowboy posted at 3:16 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.
            HighTechCowboy posted at 3:11 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.
            ? We get it......

            Any thoughts concerning a VAT tax?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:49 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832


            http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=seven-answers-to-climate-contrarian-nonsense

            IABD- You won't find ISI graduates who will agree that global warming exists or is accelerating. The ISI all drink from the same Koch machine.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:42 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/17/995466/-Wingnut-Math-Taxes-Theft

            HTC: If you truly support that screed, you are as morally bankrupt as you are intellectually bankrupt.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 11:21 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            HTC: EVERY single response listed above is an attack on the messenger rather than a rebuttal of the message.

            Yes, I noticed that as well. That is use of the language by those who believe in totalitarianism. I guess those who say are it! RLS

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:19 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/17/995466/-Wingnut-Math-Taxes-Theft

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 11:14 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            HI IABD: "How to get rid of the communists in the government? Easy. Just abolish the jobs." - Frank Chodorov

            - Using your line of inductive reasoning Mr. Spencer, if jobs were abolished there would naturally be no need for income tax anymore.
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Well, once again I agree completely with your analysis of my thinking concerning government jobs, and especially those Chodorov is speaking. It would certainly reduce the need for some taxes, wouldn't it? And, the IRS is where they should start given the recent scandal relating to the last election and the Tea Party. It appears the IRS is filled with those kinds of people with the same outlook that Chodoroy was speaking, and you seem to support. I would say their professional public persona reeks of those who prefer a totalitarian regime rather than a democratic republic. By the way, your public comments seem to reflect the same values, I am sad to say.

            I proffer the following as a better analysis: "Using your line of inductive reasoning Mr. Spencer, if government were abolished there would naturally be no need for income tax anymore." Who could disagree with that, other than those working for the government? RLS

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:02 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:22 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HTC-"The learned and wise man knows that even Hitler often spoke the truth."

            IABD- So speaking as the all "wise guy" that you are, you know In your heart that Hitler was right. Explain some other pearls of wisdom learned at police academy. Was this a direct quote from the Chapter on Good Cops, Bad Cops urban psychology training manual for brown shirts? Germany's version of the young Intercollegiate Society of Individualists?

            http://elsloganero.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/ubermensch.jpg

             
          • who new posted at 9:47 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            Re: 8 percent business VAT

            The American public is attracted to simple tax plans as was seen in Herman Cain’s 999 tax plan. I have to agree with the critics, though, because unless the politicians have the will to eliminate other taxes, this would end up being a new tax. And I believe it is unlikely there would be a massive groundswell of public opinion to change politician’s minds.

            As far as the taxes that other nations impose on our exports and the lack of taxes on goods we import, I believe a place to start is by applying the same tax on goods imported to the US as is applied to goods we export to other nations. Since our economy is less dependent on imports as theirs is on exports to us, this would likely be beneficial to us. But this does not address the bigger problem, the excessive tax code on American businesses that hinders our ability to be competitive around the world. If we do nothing about that, we will never be globally competitive.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 9:23 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Hi All:

            For those of you who may be wondering about the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, here is its history. You can go to their web site of Wikipedia if you have further interest. I first read the posted "tax" article in their journal, "The Intercollegiate Review", 2011. It is a quarterly publication and free to most.

            History(taken from Wikipedia)

            In 1953, Frank Chodorov founded ISI as the Intercollegiate Society of Individualists, with a young Yale University graduate William F. Buckley, Jr. as president.[4] E. Victor Milione, ISI's next and longest-serving president, was the enterprising individual whose efforts realized Chodorov's plan through publications, a membership network, a lecture and conference program, and a graduate fellowship program.

            Over the years, ISI has established itself as a leading conservative educational organisation. In its own words, it "is today the educational pillar of the conservative movement and the leading source of information about a free society for the many students and teachers who reject the post-modernist zeitgeist."[5] President Reagan has expressed himself in the same direction:
            “ By the time the Reagan Revolution marched into Washington, I had the troops I needed—thanks in no small measure to the work with American youth ISI had been doing since 1953. I am proud to count many ISI products among the workhorses of my two terms as President. ”Ronald Reagan

            Past ISI president and former Reagan administration official T. Kenneth Cribb led the institute from 1989 until 2011, when current president Christopher G. Long took over. Cribb is credited with expanding ISI's revenue from one million dollars that year to $13,636,005 in 2005.[6][7] Charity Navigator gives ISI an overall rating of 61,51, which is in the range of "excellent." They note that 84.4% of expenses go to program expenses.[8] In 2010, they gave ISI a 4-star rating for the 7th consecutive year, which is a result only one percent of charities accomplish.[9]

            One of the principal intellectual fathers of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute was Russell Kirk, who secured a place for the eighteenth-century Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke in American conservative thought, with an emphasis on the role of prescription in political and social life, and an opposition to utopianism. The history of ISI during its first fifty years (1953–2003) is narrated by Lee Edwards in Educating for Liberty.

            Let me hear from you after digesting its recommendations. If nothing, it is certainly food for the just generally thoughtful, and those serious about tax reform,I would say. Enjoy! RLS

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:22 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            It's a beautiful day posted at 9:39 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013
            It's a beautiful day posted at 9:51 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013
            It's a beautiful day posted at 10:20 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013
            It's a beautiful day posted at 10:27 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013
            It's a beautiful day posted at 10:55 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013
            IABD: You are certainly a libertarian's libertarian extremist Mr. Spencer.

            HTC: Yours is unquestionably the most content-free mind I've ever encountered. EVERY single response listed above is an attack on the messenger rather than a rebuttal of the message. You smear everything you don't like - which doesn't fit your delusional view of reality - with the most asinine and vile attempts at character assassination.

            In your perverted view of the world, the messenger is always a Bircher, or has links to the John Birch Society, had something to do with McCarthy. is in some way associated with the Koch brothers, is a racist or some kind of 'extremist.'

            Those are the responses of someone sadly lacking in intellectual capacity as well as intellectual honesty.

            The learned and wise man knows that even Hitler often spoke the truth. It is the message which is important, not the messenger. By attacking the messenger rather than the message, you disparage only yourself, if that's even possible at this point.

            If you knew ANYTHING about our country's founding principles, you'd already know that Dr. Spencer is a patriot and an 'extremist' only in that he passionately holds dear those founding principles which you and your ilk constantly belittle, disparage and dismiss.

            When and if you finally come to understand the importance and truth of the following words, then and only then do you deserve to be called a patriot:

            "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" -- Barry Goldwater

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:47 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            jennydoe: ------any funnier than judge napolitano???

            HTC: Al Franken raised some very legitimate questions in his letter to Apple, especially given how easily fooled the TouchID system actually is and the fact that we leave thumbprints everywhere, including at the MVD/DMV.

            One group of hackers obtained a thumbprint from a glass; took a picture of it; digitally enhanced and mirrored it; then printed it on a laser printer at very high resolution; then used a latex glue to create a flexible, flesh colored version from the laser-printed reverse image printout.

            Franken also raised important questions as to what Apple does with the digitally encoded version of the user's thumbprint. Is it encrypted within the phone? Does Apple lift that information from the phone? Are there adequate safeguards to ensure that others can't easily hack into the phone to lift that information?

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 8:16 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Rick - Very well done.[beam]

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 6:56 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Here is a short bio of the Author: Taxing Our Way to Prosperity

            Tom Pauken has a longtime involvement in politics and public affairs. From 1994 to 1997, he served as State Chairman of the Republican Party of Texas. Previously, he was Director of ACTION, an independent federal agency, from 1981 to 1985. He also was on the White House Counsel’s staff during the Reagan Administration. He served in the Nixon Administration from 1970 to 1971 as Associate Director of the White House Fellowship Program and as White House Staff Assistant. Mr. Pauken’s military service included a tour of duty in Vietnam as a military intelligence officer. He was a National Chairman of the College Republicans from 1965 to 1967. Mr. Pauken received a bachelor of arts from Georgetown University and a J.D. from Southern Methodist University Law School. He is the author of The Thirty Years War: The Politics of the ‘60s Generation. He has been a newspaper columnist, talk show host, and president of a radio station. Mr. Pauken currently serves on the Board of Directors of the American Conservative Union and the Rockford Institute.

            In his professional capacity, Tom Pauken is a Dallas businessman who is President of TWP, Inc. Tom also serves on the Board of Directors of a number of public and private companies.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:53 am on Wed, Sep 25, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:42 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            A good article, however, I think I will wait for the 800 lb gorilla to respond to said article before I venture sticking my neck out with an opinion. [wink]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:55 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            "The John Birch Society Blues" - Bob Dylan

            Bob Dylan may have been possessed by the rational self interest of an Ayn Randian ubermensch such as HTC or may have been on Koch at the time? It is all a conspiracy I've been told. The musicians and comedians must be on something.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AylFqdxRMwE

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:32 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.polluterwatch.com/blog/exposed-how-koch-bros-secretly-launder-donations-dirty-front-groups

            http://www.alternet.org/story/146504/the_roots_of_stalin_in_the_tea_party_movement

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTwqkl8BqSc

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:27 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.polluterwatch.com/blog/exposed-how-koch-bros-secretly-launder-donations-dirty-front-groups

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:20 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            kohana posted at 9:58 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            Kay- "On the second day of January we could have a massive bonfire burning the entire contents of the IRS paper files."

            IABD - Sweet Dreams...Get some sleep. The IRS has a RAID system. (Redundant Array of Independent Drives). In other words the data is electronically stored on thousands of backup systems that Randian witches bent on arson can't touch.

             
          • kohana posted at 9:58 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Couldn't wait until morning coffee, and read it with a dim government sponsored bulb and it makes so much sense! VAT, in place of, not in addition to. Can we get this done in 90 days so it becomes effective on January 1, 2014? On the second day of January we could have a massive bonfire burning the entire contents of the IRS paper files. Our tech people could empty the IRS computers.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:51 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.desmogblog.com/2013/02/11/study-confirms-tea-party-was-created-big-tobacco-and-billionaires

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:39 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Dr. Spencer, Because of the embarrassment of the John Birch Society and the Joe McCarthy witch hunts, ISI kept it's same initials and changed the name of the Institute from the Intercollegiate Society of Individuals to the Intercollegiate Studies Institute. It just did not seem prudent or politically correct at the time to be known as a Society.

            Below is a link to a GreenPeace article which notes the Koch Brothers funding of right wing colleges and think-tanks which includes your favorite source of information ISI.

            http://greenpeaceblogs.org/2013/03/29/what-do-the-koch-brothers-have-to-do-march-madness/

             
          • kohana posted at 9:18 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Ah, jeesh Dr. Spencer, 5 pages of fine print. Will read it tomorrow morning with my first cup of coffee, maybe my second as well. That looks like a great web site! All kinds of good things there.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:15 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:42 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            IABD- You are certainly a libertarian's libertarian extremist Mr. Spencer. At the bottom of your hyperlink http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com is a link to a non-profit site: Intercollegiate Studies Institute • 3901 Centerville Rd. • Wilmington, Delaware 19807-1938 • www.isi.org ..From 1955 to 1961 the Institute was known as the Intercollegiate Society of Individualists and was backed by the John Birch Society with funding from the Koch Brothers.

            www.isi.org

            "ISI was the brainchild of journalist Frank Chodorov. In two articles written in the early 1950s, he called for a “fifty-year project” to revive the American ideals of individual freedom and personal responsibility “by implanting the idea in the minds of the coming generations.” In 1953 Chodorov founded ISI expressly for that purpose. He chose a young Yale University graduate, William F. Buckley Jr., as ISI’s first president.

            Through six decades ISI has a proven record of developing principled leaders in all corners of American society, including higher education, public service, the media, and business and finance. President Ronald Reagan said, “By the time the Reagan Revolution marched into Washington, I had the troops I needed—thanks in no small measure to the work with American youth ISI had been doing since 1953.”

            www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqYwkEcGu8c‎(Frank Chodorov on communists)

            "How to get rid of the communists in the government? Easy. Just abolish the jobs." - Frank Chodorov

            IABD- Using your line of inductive reasoning Mr. Spencer, if jobs were abolished there would naturally be no need for income tax anymore.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 7:42 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Hi All:

            Last night I promised to post a tax plan that would rid the country of its personal income tax. Here it is for your study and I do mean study. That means reading it several times before commenting about it. To digest this innovative approach it will take critical thinking rather than political thinking. If you can not hold an open mind, then skip it as it will not be for you. The tax problem in its present state is the U.S. is so complex that it is impossible to understand in its entirety and thus creates much rancor among various constituencies. The IRS is one of our most feared agencies and the Obamacare Act has increased its power to delve into your personal life to levels that have our Founders, even in their present state, wondering why we have not revolted. To have an agency in a democracy that strikes such fear puts us on the same level as a totalitarian state. It is astonishing that the citizenry continues to allow it, but it seems that we have slowly become a people who work for the government rather than the government working for us. It is "The Road to Serfdom" in all of its glory as defined by Hayek and coveted by the Democrats/
            Progressive/Socialist elites who profess to know better than you about important life decisions.

            Here it is, but remember it is to be studied, not just read. Then, I would like hear your thoughts. Enjoy! RLS

            http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1793

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:29 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            jennydoe posted at 6:55 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013

            [thumbdown][thumbdown][thumbup][thumbdown][thumbup][thumbdown][thumbup][thumbdown][thumbup][thumbdown][thumbup][thumbdown]

            I seem to be all thumbs today with all 12 of my digitally challenged iPhone 5.Will see how many more I have in my hacker's toolbox.Thanks for the link. [beam]

             
          • jennydoe posted at 6:55 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            Al Franken????? Now, that is funny.
            ------any funnier than judge napolitano???

            http://xrepublic.tv/node/5461

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 6:01 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            HTC - Very well said. Given the bucket full of scandals of the Chairman Obama regime it's easy to see the lack of moral values. I guess we'd have to add, we see the same lack in the folks who voted for this pos.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:53 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            @HTC, Just how long do you think you would last in the military with your bigoted and racist authoritarian profile. In your mind, you would be an army of one. You just wouldn't rely on anyone else because you are so self-reliant and proud.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:16 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: "All military personnel must turn in their weapons to be secured when they are not in a hostile environment or on the firing range. Why? Because as well trained as soldiers are with weapons, the military knows sh*t happens accidentally or otherwise."

            HTC: I guess poor Jimmy is still trying to figure out how the Fort Hood shooting happened and hasn't calculated how much smaller the toll in human life likely would have been, had the military personnel there that day been armed.

            A mind is truly a horrible thing to waste.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:11 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: No need to insult the wisdom of the Army veteran who wrote those words: "Simply stated: Good government produces good societies...."

            HTC: Military service by itself does not ensure clear moral vision nor somehow impart a level of wisdom that may be lacking in others. His words could not be more wrong if he tried. Good government only comes from and is maintained only by the hard work and eternal diligence of good, moral people. It is those people and the society that THEY create, which ultimately produce good government, NOT the other way around.

            How sad to have lived as long as he has and to have yet to learn that.

            What he stated IS, however, the viewpoint of the progressive and particularly of progressive 'educators' who view the public school system as the means to an end; namely, to propagandize our children into being the good little servants of government who will be so ignorant of our Constitution and the principles upon which this country was founded that they won't even question their servitude to the state.

            I am reminded of an acquaintance of mine who spent close to $300,000 on his daughter's Ivy League education, ultimately leading to a masters degree in education. Upon her graduation with her MA degree, he asked her what she hoped to do with it.

            She indicated that she planned to go into teaching and ultimately into course development, all with the aim of producing "good citizens." When he asked her what she meant by "good citizens", she said "people who have learned to get along with and cooperate with government, rather than resist it or attempt to reduce it."

            To this day, he is mortified by her response and feels that he spent $300K of his own, hard-earned money (and part of his retirement), only to create another Obamaton.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 2:58 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            I wonder if someone somewhere would judge this Jimmy Brennan to be of sound mind and body and authorized to own a weapon? Or - might it be that some bureaucrat with a beef against him decide he wasn't fit to own a weapon? The question is - just who is going to call the shots? Pelosi, Reid, Chairman Obama, Al Franken (snicker) or some other unknown "expert" ?[beam]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:13 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            No, Your Desire to Be A Gun Nut Does Not Exceed The Safety Of Others In Their Surroundings
            http://tricklethisdown.com/
            December 18th, 2012 Author: Jimmy Brennan

            "All military personnel must turn in their weapons to be secured when they are not in a hostile environment or on the firing range. Why? Because as well trained as soldiers are with weapons, the military knows sh*t happens accidentally or otherwise. Any person owning a gun like myself, especially those who carry locked and loaded, are a clear and present danger to family, friends, neighbors, or strangers just walking down the street. A gun in one’s possession is a non-essential tool which can kill. I would hate to get caught in a crossfire because some would-be hero packing heat decides he is going to take down some low life robbing the convenience store. And I don’t want to be anywhere in the vicinity when a couple of angry gun toting dudes I know finally explode and lash out at society for all the fabricated grievances contrived in their right wing militaristic strange little minds. Those demented ticking time bombs who are constantly building resentment about how much society has wronged them are everywhere daring anyone to cross an imaginary line so they can blow someone away just to make a dreaded sordid point. Let the hunters hunt but let’s ban the automatics and assault weapons which are not used in hunting and serve merely to kill multitudes in multiple fire bursts from magazines packed with 50 rounds or more. And let’s make sure all gun owners are psychologically evaluated and have required training on weapon handling. I often see hunters walking the country roads with their rifles pointed level right at passing cars. A drill sergeant would grab that rifle and head butt them with the stock for doing that. So let’s push for clear thinking and safety on gun ownership. Let’s do it for the children."

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:53 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 12:38 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013

            No need to insult the wisdom of the Army veteran who wrote those words: "Simply stated: Good government produces good societies; bad government caters just to the rich and powerful."
            http://tricklethisdown.com/about/

            IABD- Being the cowardly chickenhawk that you are, tell all the Army veterans you choose to ignore them, because you are smarter and wiser than them.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:45 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:44 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            A good read on Republican President Herbert Hoover aka the rugged individualist who caused the Great Depression.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:38 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: Simply stated: Good government produces good societies; bad government caters just to the rich and powerful.

            HTC: No need to read anymore of that individual's ponderings, since he got this terribly wrong. It is good people/societies which produce good government; NOT the other way around.

            Clearly this individual suffers from the progressive affliction known as ocular rectilitis.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:33 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HTC- Your anti-social behavioral disorder emulates Adolph Hitler's insanity.Who said I was ever a fan of Woodrow Wilson the progressive? Don't forget Herbert Hoover.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:32 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            jennydoe: His hatred for the Bronco is disgusting. Intolerable. Inhumane.

            HTC: I don't hate Bronco. For one thing, I can't afford to waste the time and energy on hating anyone. For another, he's not worth it.

            He is, however, pathetically ignorant and shows no desire to remedy his ignorance; as a result, since he has the power of the vote, he's like a two-year old with a loaded gun. Sooner or later, someone else will pay for his ignorance and irresponsibility.

            He supports progressive plunder of the individual while professing not to be a progressive. It's not my fault he's so confused that he can't even see that glaring contradiction.

            But those who support the progressive cause, support the subjugation of the individual to the state's desires and end up mortgaging our children's futures in order to satisfy their insatiable demand for more 'justice.'

            THAT is what is "disgusting, intolerable and inhumane."

            jennydoe: Since it has to be conservative vs. liberal (which it is not) there will be no winners.

            HTC: It's not about "conservative" versus "liberal". It's about right versus wrong. It's about defending the sovereignty of the individual and his/her property from the unconstitutional overreach of government and its practice of 'legal' plunder. it's about restoring this country to its foundational principles where the state exists only to protect the rights, property and life of the individual.

            If you can't see that, then you're clearly on the wrong side of the issue.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:21 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123 posted at 9:18 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013

            Apparently you believe, as do Bronco and jennydoe, that respect is owed, rather than earned. I've spent decades extending respect where none was due and think I'll try something different for awhile.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:13 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: "Every GOP administration since 1952 has let the Military-Industrial Complex loot the Treasury and plunge the nation into debt on the excuse of a wartime economic emergency."

            HTC: Were Woodrow Wilson (WW I), FDR (WW II), Truman (Korean War) and LBJ (Vietnam War) actually Republicans? Who knew?!

            And Woodrow Wilson even saddled us with a progressive income tax, previously banned by the Constitution, so that the government could begin the systematic looting of the public treasury ("legal plunder") in the pursuit of progressive ideals.

            It is the progressives, now firmly in control of the Democratic Party, who have spent nearly 100 years stealing from the American people, perverting their institutions, and ultimately making much of the population slaves to the state.

            And you are clearly one of their "useful idiots", completely blind to your own subjugation and the mortgaging of your children's futures.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:06 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            The "trickle-down" theory: The principle that the poor, who must subsist on table scraps dropped by the rich, can best be served by giving the rich bigger meals. - William Blum

            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Supply_side_economics

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:02 pm on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: "I am opposed to 'right to work' legislation because it does nothing for working people, but instead gives employers the right to exploit labor." - Eleanor Roosevelt

            HTC: What? You have no pithy quote from her Marxist husband, meant to support her ridiculous statement?

            The Roosevelts were Marxists, through and through. Her statement belies the fact that, if unions performed a service that labor needed and desired, workers would all voluntarily join the union and there'd be no open shops. There would be no need to force membership at the expense of holding the job you desired.

            Behind amost every policy advocated by socialists, and supposedly in the interests of the people, you will find force and coercion of some kind. Socialism, by its very nature, cannot exist without the brute force of government behind it.

            Real virtue, however, always sells itself and is its own reward.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:59 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://tricklethisdown.com/about/

            Many people believe Ronald Reagan invented ‘Trickle Down Economics’, but this shameful transfer of wealth to the Upper Class was actually created back in the late 1800′s by a few rich conniving individuals. It was made into law using the horse and bird analogy. According to the originators of Trickle Down Economics, if you feed the horse well what comes out is food for the sparrow. Thus, both the horse and the sparrow benefit. Get the picture? Can anyone imagine using that analogy today to keep the flow of wealth going to the rich and powerful?

            As a student of history with diverse experience and an ever ending quest for just the facts, the host of Trickle This Down ponders the big questions of our times concerning the environment, financial, health care, and politics as they relate to, and are influenced by, government policy and the private sector – both of which significantly impact our lives for better or worst.

            After 25 years in private practice, the host recently retired as a Financial Advisor. Work in the financial services field presented him with not only a unique insight into investments, but also the inner financial world of the middle class and the wealthy, Wall Street corporate culture, and the influences of Washington fiscal policies and programs as they affect the health and general well being of society.

            The host of Trickle This Down is an Army veteran and former teacher with a History degree, a Minor in Philosophy, and a Master’s Degree in Social Work (MSW). He was a director of community centers and youth development programs, and worked with adjudicated delinquent boys in institutional settings in both Pennsylvania and New York City.

            With a perspective for fairness and opportunity for all - including the middle class and working poor - the host believes government should be viewed as an important ally of everyone, a buffer against tyrannical subjugation by the powerful greedy, and an arbitrator of what is right or wrong within society.

            Simply stated: Good government produces good societies; bad government caters just to the rich and powerful.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:49 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Tell President Obama and EPA Administrator McCarthy to Investigate Fracking Water Contamination Now!

            http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/face-the-science-and

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:32 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            jennydoe: I tend to believe most folks care about the welfare of children.

            HTC: Absolutely! But charity should address their needs, not government-sponsored theft from other citizens. As we've already seen here and in the EU, government-sponsored programs intended to aid children always end up producing more poverty and rampant fraud.

            jennydoe: The subsidy question doesn’t stop at oil companies....The average American family pays $6,000 a year in subsidies to big business.

            HTC: When nearly half of America's 115 million households pay no income tax whatsoever, and scads of them get the "earned income" tax credit (plunder from other citizens), how can anyone honestly make this statement? And, if true, this would amount to nearly $700B per year, which is clearly not the case.

            Furthermore, this 'analysis' disingenuously lumps corporate tax savings via tax deductions and other mechanisms into the "subsidy" category when, allowing businesses or individuals to keep more of their earnings is hardly a "subsidy" in any honest interpretation of the word. When government gives you someone else's money, that's a true subsidy. And, as Rick Spencer so effectively pointed out, taxes on business are STUPID and hurt everyone.

            So, if we look at your 'analysis', and we eliminate the other B.S. 'subsidies', we see that there is only $870 in "direct" (i.e., true) subsidies, which shouldn't exist because it is just as wrong for government to engage in legal plunder for the benefit of business as it is to do so for the benefit of individuals.

            But this direct subsidization of business absolutely pales in comparison to the cost of the nanny state. According to the CBO's estimates, the per-household cost for ObamaCare, when it fully kicks in next year, will be $7650! The entitlement system wil additionally cost each family a total of $23,500 this year ($2.7T divided across 115M households)!

            According to the CBO, the entitlement system's demand will grow to $47,000 per household in 2020. Our "war on poverty" has already cost us more than $21T since the beginning of LBJ's "Great Society".

            Of course, nearly half of households won't shoulder this burden but will benefit from it instead, and at others' considerable expense. An horrendous immorality and MASSIVE theft by any reasonable standard!

            We'd have NO national debt today if we had heeded the Constitution and refused to allow the government to engage in legal plunder. We'd have a healthier middle class, tens of millions more jobs and far less poverty as well.

            Is it any wonder why so many spend so much time and money trying to defend their wealth from the greedy arm of government and the greedy electorate which demands that wealth be given to them?

            jennydoe: Trickledown my azz.

            HTC: As I've pointed out before, "Trickle Down" is a fabrication of the left and is not an actual economic theory. You may choose between "demand side" economics or "supply side" economics, but choose wisely; for "demand side" has never worked and is a Keynesian myth.

            jennydoe: I don’t believe in taking other’s money.

            HTC: Unless it's for welfare programs and for ObamaCare. You seem to certainly support a significant amount of legal plundering of your fellow citizens.

            jennydoe: Also I don’t believe somebody works a gazzillion times harder than myself.

            HTC: History shows that working smarter pays far more handsomely than simply working harder. Many of the wealthy have built businesses with their own capital at risk. Besides working very hard, they struggled and often lost it all before finally succeeding in the establishment of a successful enterprise that prospered long term.

            But businesses are struggling today under the tremendous strain of high taxes, increasingly expensive energy and raw materials, and an incredibly onerous regulatory burden which imposes a hidden tax on the economy of an estimated $4T per year, which vastly exceeds that of our European and Asian competitor countries. It is government which is consuming the business wealth which would otherwise be shared with employees, as well as used to grow the business and create more jobs within our borders.

            In the '50s and '60s, the middle class grew at an incredible rate. We paid off our WW II debt, built schools for 80 million new babies and grew our infrastructure, and all on single income households being the norm. Today, we can't even properly maintain that infrastructure with TWO income households now being the norm. Experts estimate that there are over 80,000 bridges alone that are in dangerous disrepair.

            Why the difference? Simple: In the '50s and '60s, government only consumed 12.5% of average household income versus today's 48.5%. Today, one of the two wage earners in the typical family literally works just to cover the legal plunder of their incomes by a bloated and immoral government. Back then, government accounted for 19% of GDP; today, it's 51%.

            Government plunder is literally being supported by the now smaller( 49%) private sector. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that this trend can't end well.

            The fact that our private sector businesses now compete in a global marketplace is a major reason why they often find themselves having to move operations overseas in order to remain competitive by escaping the burdens imposed upon them by our government. And if they want to bring those foreign profits home to invest here, the government wants 35% of that, even though they've already paid taxes on those monies to the country where they were earned.

            Ours is the ONLY developed country that taxes those earnings twice; yet, Obama and his party have the audacity to fault our businesses for reinvesting those funds abroad instead of giving over a third of it to Uncle Sam, who has no rightful claim upon it,in order to invest them here. Even here at home, the government taxes corporate earnings twice; once as paid by the corporation and then again on the dividends paid to investors.

            Don't blame business for the lack of jobs and the lost ground in middle class wages - BLAME OUR DAMN GREEDY GOVERNMENT and those (mostly Democrats) who support and even grow it further!

            jennydoe: These rich people don’t seem to pay or treat their employees, who work honestly and hard for them, fairly.

            HTC: Really? And you know this, how?

            The U.S. ranks 7th in per capita income, exceeded only by oil countries, Luxembourg (#2), Singapore (#3), Norway (#4), and Hong Kong (#6). Of those countries that beat us, all but Luxembourg and Norway have even higher concentrations of wealth in the hands of the 'rich' than do we; so, it should be apparent that the alleged economic 'evil' of 'disproportionate' wealth distributions is largely just another progressive economic myth.

            What these other countries do have that we don't is an incredibly low tax rate on business and a substantially smaller regulatory burden. This enables the rich to invest their wealth locally, with a greater chance of further increasing their wealth, while creating more higher paying jobs in the process.

            The U.S. was #1 for a very long time and only began its decline with the construction of the modern nanny state. As the government's share of GDP grew, the growth in personal incomes declined and the concentration of wealth in the hands of the 'rich' increased.

            Once again, government is the enemy. If you really want a return to better times and more individual liberty, then join us libertarians in our fight to dramatically shrink government and to end legal plunder.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:09 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Moose:"Rob123 - did you have anything useful to add?"

            Have you ever run up against a blend wall, Sergeant Major Moose? [sad]

            http://energytomorrow.org/blog/2013/september/the-renewable-fuel-standards-reality-gap

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:46 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            "Every GOP administration since 1952 has let the Military-Industrial Complex loot the Treasury and plunge the nation into debt on the excuse of a wartime economic emergency. Richard Nixon comes quickly to mind, along with Ronald Reagan and his ridiculous ‘trickle-down’ theory of U.S. economic policy. If the Rich get Richer, the theory goes, before long their pots will overflow and somehow ‘trickle down’ to the poor, who would rather eat scraps off the Bush family plates than eat nothing at all. Republicans have never approved of democracy, and they never will. It goes back to preindustrial America, when only white male property owners could vote."

            Hunter S. Thompson

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:25 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            "I am opposed to 'right to work' legislation because it does nothing for working people, but instead gives employers the right to exploit labor." - Eleanor Roosevelt

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 10:11 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            HTC - you are correct. Rob123 - did you have anything useful to add?[beam]

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:18 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: It never ceases to amaze me how impossible it is for most progressives to understand and embrace that inescapable reality. Then they're insulted when we look at them like they're the greedy fools that they are.
            --------------

            Without changing your conservative fiscal policy one bit, I am sure if you attended some lectures by the Dalai Lama and learned how to express yourSelf without the anger and condescension, many people would listen who presently just turn you off.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:01 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: http://www.alternet.org/story/146504/the_roots_of_stalin_in_the_tea_party_movement

            HTC: I have to admit that you, by far, are the biggest old fool that I've ever encountered. You so consistently regurgitate B.S. progressive talking points to everything posted here, that I have to wonder if you've ever had an original thought of your own.

            And by the way, "trickle down" isn't an economic theory. It is a complete fabrication of the left; a strawman intended to be easy to knock down because it was fabricated as a falsehood to begin with.

            I suggest you spend some time actually studying economics rather than simply regurgitating the false theories of the left.


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:56 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            mooseberryinn: Corporations do not pay taxes, their customers do. Ya see, corporations have to make a profit to survive. What interferes with that profit becomes part of the price of the product. As in; Ford, GM, Chrysler, Walmart, kmart etc. etc.

            HTC: It never ceases to amaze me how impossible it is for most progressives to understand and embrace that inescapable reality. Then they're insulted when we look at them like they're the greedy fools that they are.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:52 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rick Spencer: They know they are trapped in a failing system of government benefits that they were forced to join, i.e., SS and Medicare.

            HTC: I have often heard a lot of the Tea Party types that I know, at least those who are part of the baby boomer generation, state that they want dramatic cuts in federal spending, but "leave Social Security and Medicare" alone. Most won't budge even after I show them that those two programs, especially Medicare, are hemorrhaging red ink like crazy and account for $100T in unfunded liabilities.

            I guess it's probably desperation, due to having lost half or more of their retirement savings in the last two market corrections. And then, adding insult to injury, Uncle Sam sharply limits how much they can add back to their IRA's and 401(k)'s, in a desperate effort to recover their lost nest eggs; after all, he doesn't want people to become too wealthy and feel like they don't need him in their retirement.


             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 8:41 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Questions- for the experts out there - what happens when some old folks living on their retirement savings can't afford enough to pay the mandatory insurance costs? Will the gov't subsidies cover the costs? What happens to those old folks when the local doctors won't make appointments for them because the reimbursement rates don't cover the doctor's costs? Or, the hospitals won't admit them for the same reason? What happens when KRMC or North Valley has to lay-off their employees due to the obama/demo-dummy care costs/low reimbursements (like the cleveland clinic). Any answers out there?

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:45 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            here are two anti-obamacare ads some of you may enjoy......

            http://investmentwatchblog.com/anti-obamacare-ads-go-viral-opt-out-creepy-uncle-sam-the-exam-the-glove-videos/

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:40 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            Who appointed the High Cowboy to decide who Americans should comprimise with or not? His hatred for the Bronco is disgusting. Intolerable. Inhumane.
            Since it has to be conservative vs. liberal (which it is not) there will be no winners.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:31 am on Tue, Sep 24, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            who new posted at 11:36 pm on Sat, Sep 21, 2013.
            -----------
            I tend to believe most folks care about the welfare of children. Like I said, nobody thinks their tax dollars are being spent properly.

            The subsidy question doesn’t stop at oil companies:
            ‘The average American family pays $6,000 a year in subsidies to big business.
            That’s over and above our payments to the big companies for energy and food and housing and health care and all our tech devices. It’s $6,000 that no family would have to pay if we truly lived in a competitive but well-regulated free-market economy.

            1. $870 for Direct Subsidies and Grants to Companies

            2. $696 for Business Incentives at the State, County, and City Levels

            3. $722 for Interest Rate Subsidies for Banks

            4. $350 for Retirement Fund Bank Fees

            5. $1,268 for Overpriced Medications

            6. $870 for Corporate Tax Subsidies

            7. $1,231 for Revenue Losses from Corporate Tax Havens

            Overall, American families are paying an annual $6,000 subsidy to corporations that have doubled their profits and cut their taxes in half in ten years while cutting 2.9 million jobs in the U.S. and adding almost as many jobs overseas.”
            entire aticle: http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/the-average-american-family-pays-6000-a-year-in-subsidies-to-big-business/72197/

            Trickledown my azz. I don’t believe in taking other’s money. Also I don’t believe somebody works a gazzillion times harder than myself.
            These rich people don’t seem to pay or treat their employees, who work honestly and hard for them, fairly.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:18 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/09/22/german-hackers-say-theyve-broken-the-iphones-touchid-fingerprint-reader/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:33 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.alternet.org/story/146504/the_roots_of_stalin_in_the_tea_party_movement

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 10:27 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Corporations do not pay taxes, their customers do. Ya see, corporations have to make a profit to survive. What interferes with that profit becomes part of the price of the product. As in; Ford, GM, Chrysler, Walmart, kmart etc. etc.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:15 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:43 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013

            So in other words, you as a retired military officer vehemently objects to JBS's SS disability check because he didn't serve 20 years even though his disability was service related? If JBS was stationed as a pencil pusher in Saigon he could have received a blanket disability for everyone in the theater that went to VietNam because the books were lost and deliberately destroyed during the pullout. Rob123 then went back to the jungles of VietNam as a civilian to search for missing booty and may have been poisoned when he returned unofficially.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:57 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:06 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013

            Most of the largest corporations are multi-national corporations that bend the rules of capitalism and human rights without paying for their consequences. If you want to look at 'trickle-down economics' at the multi-national corporate level, look at Montana's open-pit gold mine that is primarily Canadian owned. There is no real economic benefit to Montana other than 'trickle-down cyanide' to our rivers and streams. The practice was supposed to be banned in Montana. The multi-national mining corporation now wants to expand their 'glory-hole' onto other claims and reap the gold while leaving other minerals behind. Montana doesn't have gold smelters anymore. This is how the mining companies do it anymore in third-world nations. Brian Schweitzer knows this well, and has grandiose schemes to do the same form of exploiting countries and finding an abundance of cheap labor in South America. Furthermore gold tax does not exist in Montana such as Coal historically had. Montanans are being had and is no different than the 3rd world nations where there are only an upper and lower class with no middle. Trickle-down economics destroys the middle class. But we all remember when President Reagan's trickle-down economic madness left us 3 trillion dollars poorer when he left office.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 7:43 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Rob: I think the Tea would be a major supporter of eliminating corporate taxes. After all, they are the major group that understands our inability to continue with a Progressive agenda that is destroying the country. They know they are trapped in a failing system of government benefits that they were forced to join, i.e., SS and Medicare.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:25 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:06 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            [thumbup]

            I remember my big smile when President Reagan first tried to float that balloon 30 years ago, but alas, it was popped. Do you think it could even float through a Tea Party gathering, today?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:19 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Where else can Apple "touch ID" be leading us? I do recall when the NRA was kicking around the can concerning "smart guns" that could only be fired by the registered owner of the weapon, using a finger print ID trigger. The NRA leaders wanted all old technology including flintlocks without serial numbers confiscated. Do you see where this could be leading? Do you think Al Franken's questions that have not been answered by Apple yet, are funny questions?

            "Under President Bill Clinton's administration, and for a time in the early 2000s, many major gun manufacturers had smart gun development programs, including Colt's Manufacturing Co., Smith & Wesson and Mossberg & Sons.

            Between May 2000 and December 2004, the National Institute of Justice's Office of Justice Programs (OJP) granted Smith & Wesson $3 million in grant money to "test 50 prototype electronically-fired handguns and to research possible biometrics that would fit inside a handgun." But an audit performed in 2005 showed that the smart gun technology project had not been completed."

            http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9234975/Missing_from_NRA_plan_Smart_gun_technology?pageNumber=1

            IABD- NRA has in the past been open to the idea of smart gun technology to make firearms safer and CEO Wayne LaPierre was contemplating as a "good liberal" the idea of removing old dangerous technology from the public. What is the NRA's position on 'smart gun technology' now that it has been perfected by Apple?

            http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/02/how-the-gun-control-movement-got-smart/272934/

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 7:06 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            IABD posted @ 2;24 concerning corporate taxes

            You are correct in that I am not in favor of corporate tax breaks as I do not favor corporate taxes. There is not a single economic reason to have them, none, Name one.

            Why tax corporations when they are creating the wealth that flows to the individual?

            Why do you think that companies that do not pay taxes normally are the best job creators, easy answer; they have money to expand their business, hire more people, and create wealth. That is certainly better than paying taxes isn't it?

            There are hundreds of reasons that taxing corporations are a major impediment to a free market system. What is your alternative if it is destroyed?

            I favor taxes only on income, to be taxed once only. Some favor consumption taxes and I could live with that. But, there may be an even better way that I will post tomorrow to rid us of all personal taxes and create a better economy. Let us know which of these you disagree, and why?

            REASONS TO ELIMINATE CORPORATE TAXES:

            Some 70 percent of the corporate tax burden is borne by workers in the form of lower wages and fewer high-paying jobs.

            Corporate taxes lead to double taxation. Profits are taxed a first time at the company level and then again as dividends.

            The OECD has found that corporate taxes are most onerous for dynamic, high-growth companies that are challenging more established firms.

            The OECD recommends that countries move away from corporate and personal income taxes toward consumption taxes.

            An EU study of 50,000 companies found that a 1 percent increase in marginal corporate income tax rates leads to a 0.92 percent decrease in real wages.

            It's a hidden tax: Even workers get hit by it, but they don't know it because they don't directly pay the tax.

            Some 30 percent of the corporate tax burden is borne by shareholders.

            Many companies pay more in accountants' fees to file their taxes than they do in taxes.

            For every dollar the government collects in revenue, the corporate tax may actually cost the government $1 in revenue through slower economic growth.

            Let us hear your answers! RLS


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:52 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            One Family's ObamaCare Nightmare
            September 23, 2013 | Fox News
            Jim Angle

            Andy and Amy Mangione of Louisville, Ky. and their two boys are just the kind of people who should be helped by ObamaCare. But they recently got a nasty surprise in the mail.

            "When I saw the letter when I came home from work," Andy said, describing the large red wording on the envelope from his insurance carrier, "(it said) 'your action required,benefit changes, act now.' Of course I opened it immediately."

            It had stunning news. Insurance for the Mangiones and their two boys,which they bought on the individual market, was going to almost triple in 2014 --- from $333 a month to $965.

            The insurance carrier made it clear the increase was in order to be compliant with the new health care law.

            "This isn't a Cadillac plan, this isn't even a silver plan," Mangione said, referring to higher levels of coverage under ObamaCare.

            "This is a high deductible plan where I'm assuming a lot of risk for my health insurance for my family. And nothing has changed, our boys are healthy-- they're young --my wife is healthy. I'm healthy, nothing in our medical history has changed to warrant a tripling of our premiums.

            "Well I'm the one that does the budget,” said his wife. "Eventually I've got that coming down the pike that I gotta figure out what we're gonna cut what we're gonna do, to afford a $1,000 a month premium."

            Their insurance company, Humana, declined to comment, but the notice to the Mangiones carried this paragraph:

            " If your policy premium increased, you should know this isn't unique to Humana -- premium increases generally will occur industry-wide.

            "Increases aren't based on your individual claims or changes in health status," it continued. "Many other factors go in to your premium including: ACA compliance, including the addition of new essential health benefits."

            ACA, of course, is the abbreviation for the President's new law, the Affordable Care Act -- which for the Mangiones will be anything but affordable because the law adds a new tax on every insurance policy and requires a list of additional benefits the Mangiones didn’t want to pay for.

            Robert Zirkelbach, spokesman for American Health Insurance Plans, which represents insurers,explained that "for people who currently choose to purchase a high deductible, low premium policy that's more affordable for them, they are now being required to add all these new benefits to their policy.

            That," he says, "is also going to add to the cost of their health insurance premiums."

            This comes amid a huge debate over whether ObamaCare will raise or lower insurance rates.

            For the Mangiones, that answer is abundantly clear.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:14 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            mooseberryinn posted at 5:54 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Are you willing to trade in your mooseberry for the Apple iPhone 5s?

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 5:54 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Al Franken????? Now, that is funny.[beam]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:02 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.franken.senate.gov/files/documents/130919AppleTouchID.pdf

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 4:46 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/21/1240186/-MN-Sen-Al-Franken-D-Worries-That-New-iPhone-Fingerprint-Scanner-Might-Be-A-Privacy-Menace

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:59 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HighTechCowboy posted at 3:29 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.
            "Also to be contended with is the growing majority of Americans who wish to continue the unconstitutional and immoral plundering of their more productive counterparts; at least, that is, as long as they're included in the growing list of beneficiaries."

            I don't think that is a new problem.......but having an app on one's phone surely won't hurt too much? It could help elucidate the thesis from the anti-thesis? Yet even Hadrian was confronted by men in kilts who learned how to pole vault.....sigh.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:43 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Once again, Democrats show their true colors and callous nature:

            http://joeforamerica.com/2013/09/democrats-skipped-benghazi-hearing-refused-hear-testimony-victims-families/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:29 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123 posted at 3:07 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013

            While a constitution can play a critical role in uniting a country, they somehow forgot to mention that a constitution can also play a critical role in DIVIDING a country, which is exactly what we're seeing in our country today.

            Those of us who insist upon a return to Constitutional government in this country will always be pitted against those who choose to ignore the parts they find inconvenient. Of course, the outcome for our cause isn't promising, as most Americans are woefully ignorant about our Constitution, thanks in large part to our failed public school system.

            Also to be contended with is the growing majority of Americans who wish to continue the unconstitutional and immoral plundering of their more productive counterparts; at least, that is, as long as they're included in the growing list of beneficiaries.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:13 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 2:48 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013

            Joe the plumber (a/k/a Samuel Wurzelbacher) really isn't a plumber. The Liberty Alliance who funds his drivel is indirectly funneled to him via the Koch Bros.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:07 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2013/09/explore-worlds-constitutions-with-new.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:48 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            The Washington Redskins should become....

            http://joeforamerica.com/2013/09/redskins-become-washington-foreskins/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:42 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 2:18 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Where is Sarah Palin's house?

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/01/sarah-palin-arizona-house_n_869578.html#s282472

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:24 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rick Spencer posted at 2:10 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013

            What works for you -- corporate welfare tax breaks ad infinitum for the 1 percenters?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:18 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            "I can see Putin's bootprint on Obama's face from my house". -- Sarah Palin

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 2:10 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Given the predilection of many I would like to know from these naysayers who comment upon this blog that those of us who value free trade, limited government, rational decision-making, are Constitutionalists, and believe that the bigger the government, the less free the society; that, if these do not enhance your own best chance for economic and personal freedom's, then what does work for you?

            You are constantly bombarding us with the same sophistic promises of Socialism screaming that by following such reckless reasoning you can provide a land of utopia. I for one, do not buy it; so, tell me what does work for you? I guess free ice cream.....RLS

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:07 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            When I previously asked the following questions to (The Highlander) the retired Vietnam farmer, he shuts up and HTC is reborn again...???

            IABD- How much do you pay your farmhands? Do you pay a subminimum wage for Montana farm labor.? Or do you hire illegals and let them sharecrop for you?

            I reckon when winter snows sets in, you will call the border patrol and request the illegal aliens rounded up and returned to Mexico. So very conveniently for you. Wouldn't want your children to inherit slaves when the time comes...Just wouldn't be prudent.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:01 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            And now, a word for our progressive friends from Frederic Bastiat:

            “Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough.” ― Frédéric Bastiat

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:58 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123 posted at 11:21 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013

            Perhaps more significant is the poll results in swing states, given the upcoming midterm election. In those states, nearly 60% favor defunding ObamaCare:

            http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/355757/poll-majority-swing-district-voters-want-obamacare-defunded-katrina-trinko

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:32 pm on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Most Americans were not aware of this documentary. None of the major networks or PBS allowed to show the public "Koch Brothers Exposed".

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTwqkl8BqSc

            "Once you realize that trickle-down economics does not work, you will see the excessive tax cuts for the rich as what they are -- a simple upward redistribution of income, rather than a way to make all of us richer, as we were told."

            Ha-Joon Chang
            Faculty of Economics,
            University of Cambridge

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:21 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://www.cnbc.com/id/101053976

            Most Americans against defunding Obamacare: Survey
            Text Size

            Published: Monday, 23 Sep 2013 | 6:34 AM ET

            Interesting poll, especially the political breakdown 1/2 in.......

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 10:35 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Hi HTC: You may distribute my thoughts anywhere, anytime, to anyone.

            The Otteson article is very good as he makes it clear that false choices are morally corrupting. As he states, they have good intentions, but lousy results, " The welfare state encourages people to ignore, to violate–even to pretend does not exist–the moral principle that it is wrong to live at other people’s expense." Can anyone argue against that?

            Otteson's article is a clear example of critical thinking, not often used, maybe never, by the Progressive elites as such destroys every argument they have leading to utopia. When the immorality of politicians spreads to the populace, we have a serious problem; and, that has been the agenda of the Progressives over the past 100 years. I like what Bastiat said, "Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?” If one were to believe their rhetoric, they do believe they are better, the sure sign of an elitist in my view. Send them to Cuba or North Korea where they can live what they preach. RLS

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:26 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            who new posted at 9:39 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013

            I completely agree. Too many within the GOP have discovered for themselves the short-term political benefits of "legal plunder" and many within the party's leadership are basically saying that, unless they play the same game of buying votes with other peoples' money, as Democrats have been doing for decades, they'll quickly become a minor player on the national political stage.

            They are probably correct in that assessment, as it seems that a clear majority of the electorate are willing to mortgage their children's and grandchildren's futures for their own benefit and for a false sense of moral superiority in the pursuit of a perverted sense of "social justice."

            I saw a poll awhile back which asked registered Democrats and Republicans if they would be willing to saddle future generations with substantial debt in order to ensure that Social Security and Medicare were there for them. Not surprisingly, 62% of Democrats said they would be comfortable with that, but an alarming 40% of Republicans agreed with them.

            Clearly we are fast becoming an amoral society, willing to profit at our children's expense. There is no thief more despicable than the one who steals from his/her children.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:44 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            The Unintended Consequences Of The Welfare State
            James R. Otteson - joint professor of philosophy and economics at Yeshiva University in New York

            The welfare state seems to be corrupting some of our core moral principles.

            That wasn’t its intention, but if there is one thing we know about government programs, it is that they rarely do what they were intended to do. This moral corruption is eminently on display in the increasingly common, and increasingly loud, protests over cuts in state budgets, and we will soon see it in the looming fight over whether to raise the federal debt ceiling.

            To be specific: The welfare state encourages people to ignore, to violate–even to pretend does not exist–the moral principle that it is wrong to live at other people’s expense.

            That is a fundamental pillar of an enlightened moral life–indeed what distinguishes a barbaric social order from a civilized one. The fact that most human societies have historically disregarded it, and many still do, does not change the fact that it is morally wrong to live off of the fruits of others’ labor.

            Of course as a general default moral principle, it has to be properly qualified. Children may live at their parents’ expense, for example; adults who have voluntarily entered into partnerships or other associations may have legitimate claims to support; and sometimes people have to live at the expense of others’ charity.

            But the core principle holds. Able-bodied adults who live at the unwilling expense of others degrade themselves even as they demean those forced to support them.

            What’s more, contrary to what protesters in Wisconsin, in Ohio, in New Jersey (and soon in a state near you) apparently believe, able-bodied adults certainly have no right to live at unwilling others’ expense.

            To see why, consider: Why are forced labor and slavery wrong? It is not because they are costly, or because they are economically inefficient. They would be wrong even if they were inexpensive and efficient. No: They are wrong because other people’s time, talents, and treasure do not belong to you. You do not own other people. Neither, therefore, do you own the fruits of their labor. They do.

            The dignity of every human being entails that they enjoy a sovereignty over their own persons. They are absolute rulers, as it were, over themselves. That means that they may not be used for other people’s purposes without their voluntary, willing consent. Respecting people’s dignity means respecting this sovereignty.

            So even if you are proposing to force them to work for you for only one hour a day, it is still their hour–not yours. Even if you plan to do really good things with the money you extract from their labor, that money is tainted because it is ill-gotten. And even if you think you need that money more than they do, it does not alter the morally suspect character of what you are doing.

            Why? Others have just as much right to decide how to live their own lives, and how to dispose of the fruits of their labor, as you do yours.

            But the welfare state seems to have clouded this central moral principle. Indeed, it seems it has entirely inverted it, even institutionalized its perversion. It has created a legal apparatus that allows, even encourages, some to live at others’ expense, and this apparatus has given rise to the feeling among increasingly many people that they have the right–that they are “entitled,” perhaps as a matter of “social justice”–to live at others’ expense.

            Thus we have people who are willing to protest, make demands, occupy capital buildings and wreak general havoc if they do not continue to be supported in the way they want. But what we now call “public-sector workers” are, as they were once called, public servants–serving, that is, at the pleasure of the public on whose labor they live. If that public decides it wants to reduce the number of public servants, or if it simply can no longer afford to keep supporting them, it has that right. Although the public servants may be disappointed or frustrated, they can claim no injustice because they have no right to the fruits of others’ labor.

            Of course, workers do have their own rights. If they believe they are insufficiently appreciated, or that their efforts, labor, or services are worth more than what the taxpaying public is now willing to offer, then they retain the absolute right to–quit. They are free to ply their wares elsewhere and to get the most they can for themselves. Their right to work, or not, as they see fit is a fulfillment of the very moral principle we have been discussing.

            And this principle must be held sacred, because it is the key to a civilized society. Without a shared default understanding that people may not be compelled to work for or otherwise support anyone else against their wishes, we no longer have a society of free and responsible individuals. We may be wealthy, but we do not respect the inherent dignity of each individual. That is a recipe for moral barbarism.

            History–particularly the 20th century–has shown us what that way lies. And it is not pretty (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM).

            There may be cases when public provision of goods or services requires support by general taxation. National defense is a prime example. But the moral injunction against living at others’ expense means that a specific case must be made for any exceptions.

            Today’s public-sector protesters make no such case, however. That suggests that they do not believe in the moral principle, or perhaps that they do not believe they should be bound by it.

            That is a profound, and perilous, moral error, a result of just the kind of moral confusion that the welfare state can foster.

            James R. Otteson is joint professor of philosophy and economics at Yeshiva University in New York.

             
          • who new posted at 9:39 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            HTC posted at 8:51 PM Sun

            Excellent post. But I’m not sure many so-called “conservatives” are committed to these principles. For example, look at all the Republican governors willing to expand Medicaid under Obamacare (EG: Kasich, Christie, Brewer, Scott, etc).

            It is sad what politicians are willing to do to appease a few voters.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:29 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rick Spencer: I am going to circulate his thoughts, assuming, of course, that he does not object.

            HTC: Please feel free to do so. I hope I may do the same with your contributions, which I always find to be very clear, factual and timely, especially given our situation today.

            For those not familiar with Bastiat's "The Law", you may find a PDF of it here:

            http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

            This is a must-read for every American.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 9:05 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Hi Rob: I would say that you send your friend the posts that HTC and I have put up below and ask him for his critical analysis. Arguments concerning one's experience in a disciplined military unit where the livelihood is supplied upon the backs of ordinary citizens are not arguments for the country's political organization, I would think. History does not support socialism as citizens want to be all that they can be so they can easily detect the false promises of the charlatans promising utopia. Waiting for utopia in one's life is about equal to waiting for the end of the earth where we have just been informed it is north of 1.7 billion years! RLS

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:45 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Quote for the day:

            “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind?”
            ― Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:40 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Bronco: So, where are the jobs if they hold 40% of the nation's wealth? The top 1% of this nation hold 40% of its wealth and they ain't creating ANY jobs with their hoard. But conservatives, they love they rich mastahs.

            HTC: Once again, spoken like the progressive that you truly are.

            You know too little (i.e., virtually nothing) about economics to even begin to understand how capital works and how seemingly idle savings 'magically' create jobs that benefit us all. And I lack enough patience with you to make any further attempts at helping you to overcome your ignorance.

            Like the progressive that you are, you passionately embrace and even defend your ignorance, boldly shouting it out to the rest of the world in one ignorant post after another.

            As for the 'inequitable' distribution of wealth, if you knew anything about economics, you'd realize that it was big government that was responsible for that, with its heavy tax burden and regulatory burden upon entrepreneurs which makes it increasingly difficult for all but the well-connected wealthy to succeed.

            You'd realize that it was the fault of big government's welfare state, which has grown to the point where 53% of Americans are now dependent upon it, and whose financially punitive rules actually disincentivizes people from trying to improve their station in life.

            You'd realize that there is one political party in particular - the Democratic Party - which has based its influence and power upon buying votes with other peoples' money, growing and defending the welfare state which it built and which is funded by the immoral plunder of other citizens.

            But you support, vote for and defend that party as you continually and rabidly attack the GOP like the good little progressive lap dog that you are.

            You twice voted for Obama, the biggest Marxist to make it to the White House since FDR, who has grown the welfare state the fastest since then, and who will have added $10T to the national debt by the time he leaves the Oval Office, and you did so because you wanted to make sure that women could get abortions and contraceptives, paid for by someone else via our well-established system of 'legal' plunder.

            This is the same Obama, as ignorant and intellectually dishonest as you are, who recently told the American people that increasing the debt limit wouldn't increase the debt. He must truly believe that this country is filled with nothing but Broncos.

            You, sir, are part of the problem, and there can be no compromising with socialists such as yourself.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 7:05 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            rre; HTC and RLS - Very well done. Thank you for your good writing.[beam]

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:41 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Rick Spencer posted at 7:55 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.
            "In order for one to better understand this never ending struggle of political ideas one need only to read A Conflict of Visions, by Thomas Sowell. Here the story of the two controversial and opposing visions of governing that revolves around generations of ethical and ideological political disputes is told. Dr. Sowell has written a classic with remarkable insight by framing the discussion as a ‘constrained’ or an ‘unconstrained’ vision of the people who are to be governed by those who govern. "

            As usual, a well written piece by you, and a good guide towards clarity, which is always welcome.

            In another blog that I participate in, the chief heavy weight is also an Engineer with an MS, nuclear, and spent his career keeping the U.S.Navy's Nuclear Submarine Fleet running. Instead of soaring in the sky like an Eagle, he earned his Dolphin within the cramped confines of a Sub, and argues for Socialized Medicine/Single Payer with the same passion as the Soaring Eagles argue here for the Freedom of Air Currents and a Laissez faire political economy.
            Makes you wonder about the Politics of Experience, a little? Of course, looking at his retirement package and medical, WOW! However, I don't think America could afford a package like that for everyone. BUT, he does! Through a rewrite of Tax Code, and a sense of sharing and conscience that appreciates both the life of submariners keeping the boat trimmed-and livable- and an appreciation of Plato's use of a sailing ship and the interactions of it's crew, to describe what Democracy in a Republic looks like.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 6:10 am on Mon, Sep 23, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            I like HTC's discussion of the Progressive's welfare state along with its immorality especially based upon Bastiat;s, "The Law". All should read "The Law" as it is a strikingly powerful gem attacking the plunder of socialism along with its fallacies which in turn strikes to the heart of the Democrat/Progressive agenda. Again, here is a brief review from a few years ago that I constructed for my old unit's web site.

            HTC did a really nice job and all should read and heed, especially if your "conscience" is based upon the legal plunder of your fellow citizens. That has to end badly for all. I am going to circulate his thoughts, assuming, of course, that he does not object. RLS

            http://cargomasterraster.blogspot.com/2010/12/winter-2010-list-book-ii.html

            II. The Law by Frederic Bastiat


            If we were to take the greatest economists from all ages and judge them on the basis of their theoretical rigor, their influence on economic education, and their impact in support of the free-market economy, then Frederic Bastiat (1801-1850) would be at the top of the list.

            Through the years, I have read this seventy-six-page gem several times and never tire of it. I am suggesting it because much of the same situation exists in America today as in France in 1848, when they were faced with the seductive fallacies that rapidly turned them into a Socialist country. Presently, our American politicians constantly bombard their constituents with the same sophistic promises of Socialism, as were the French, screaming that by following their reckless reasoning they can provide a land of utopia.

            Sadly, America’s unfunded liabilities of $200T are a result of these Socialist/Progressive fallacies of a ‘free lunch’ whereby the political elite who have made the laws have now legally turned to the forceful taking of its citizen’s privately earned property to finance their own personal devices. Bastiat calls this ‘lawful plunder’, but today we call it ‘wealth redistribution’ or ‘national fairness’. The Law examines how our body of basic law is thus diverted from its true purpose of preventing injustice to that of legally aiding and abetting the national plunder of an individual’s wealth and liberty.

            The Law further suggests that by diverting these basic rules from their original purpose, such that they may now violate property rather than protecting it, everyone will ultimately want to participate either to prevent him or herself from being plundered or engage in it. The individual citizen is now faced with law and morality at odds, and what is legal is legitimate. This perversion of the law becomes the weapon for every kind of greed; and, the law itself becomes guilty of the evils it is supposed to punish. Sound familiar?

            The Law was Bastiat’s last book, written while in ill health, and has become a classic moral defense of liberty and limited government; it is a message of immutable principal that is both timely and brilliant. To read The Law in light of today’s constant mantra, “…that more government is better government”, strikes a frightening chord of reality about today’s political rhetoric. It could happen here!

            Richard Spencer
            39th ATS, DAFB, 1962-1962

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:40 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: We have the most expensive Health Care System in the world, yet are 33rd in Life Expectancy. In the countries that comprise the 1st World, a heart attack is a health issue only......in the U.S. it is a health issue and a huge Financial Issue.
            Something has got to change?

            HTC: According to the CIA World Factbook, we're actually Number 51. We've been in steady decline as our demographics have been rapidly moving towards the day when nonHispanic whites will be in the minority. Medicaid and other public healthcare and education hasn't stopped this decline because it's as much a cultural problem as it is a health problem.

            ObamaCare isn't going to fix any of this; instead, it's only going to make the system more expensive and less responsive.

            It will make the system and the cost of health insurance more expensive because it actually exacerbates the three fundamental reasons why healthcare costs have been skyrocketing:

            (1) It continues to foster the ill-conceived third-party payor system,
            (2) It further increases government-mandated benefits, and
            (3) It puts even more people under government heath 'insurance' programs (Medicare and Medicaid) which significantly underpay healthcare providers, forcing them to cost-shift the massive difference to the rest of us.

            We have to get government OUT of healthcare and we have to put Americans back in control of their health care decisions with programs like HSAs which ObamaCare eventually ends.

            We also need meaningful tort reform (always fought tooth-and-nail by the Democrats, in support of an important base) and the end to state-by-state barriers against a truly national and competitive health insurance market (a legitimate cause covered by the Interstate Commerce Clause but which ObamaCare failed to address.)

            ObamaCare is a ticking timebomb which threatens to destroy our already fragile and struggling healthcare system. If it topples, you'll hear no end to the Democrats' claim that only single-payor can save it.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:51 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Frank: Actually conservatives are against injustice too, and liberals also have a conscience. The question is what do you do with your conscience, and how do you fight injustice?

            HTC: If only it were that simple, Frank. The primary reason why there's such a deep political rift in this country, which renders finding a "middle ground" so impossible, is not just due to liberals' insistence upon waging "war on injustice by wielding the power of big government"; rather, it's due just as much if not more to the fact that they have a perverted sense of "justice" which is coupled with a Swiss-cheese conscience.

            How can one rightfully label something a "conscience" when it is based upon a fundamental immorality; that is, the consignment of the individual to the service of the state, in pursuit of a fraudulent "social justice?"

            Take the case of the liberal welfare state which is dragging our economy to the brink of ruin and which is at the center of our fiscal and national debt crisis. Liberals insist that our nation has an obligation to those "less fortunate" and that we must, as a nation, show charity towards our poor and those down on their luck; in fact, they've transformed that supposed charity into a "right" by calling such spending "entitlements."

            While I'm all for true charity, entitlement spending is not just wrong as an economic principle; more than that, it is fundamentally immoral and definitely neither "compassionate" nor "charity" in the true sense of the word.

            Perhaps the following example will serve to illustrate my point: If a poor person comes up to me on the street and asks for some help in feeding his family or getting healthcare for his family, I might be moved with compassion and want to help him. If so, I could reach into my pocket and hand him some money that would temporarily provide him some assistance. If I really wanted to help him long term, I might help him get the job training and counseling needed to get him on his feet again and might even help him find a job.

            This genuine act of charity which must, by definition, be voluntary, would bless both of our lives and probably change both for the better, certainly improving his family's welfare as government welfare has never managed to do.

            But suppose I had neither the means nor interest to help this man. Would it be OK if I walked up to someone on the street and beat some money out of them to give to this poor fellow? Even if I was well-intentioned, that would be theft and I would be guilty of a crime. It also wouldn't be true charity.

            In a welfare state, it is the government that plays the role of the thief who beats people out of their hard-earned money. While the poor man might not object to such false charity, it is theft nonetheless. Our government is supposed to derive its powers from the people, with their consent. We cannot convey to it powers which we do not ourselves possess. If stealing from someone else is wrong for us, it is also wrong for our government.

            Our Founders wrote a Constitution which sharply limited the powers of government and which committed it to protecting the lives and property of its citizens. Welfarism, on the other hand, is the essence of big government which seeks to take responsibility for individual welfare while purporting to be showing "compassion" for the poor, elderly, homeless, kids, students, the sick, the unemployed, etc. For our 'benefit', they even seek to manage the economy itself (a job they do VERY poorly, by the way).

            This is socialism and it is the antithesis of personal freedom. It violates the most fundamental rights of the individual which liberals claim to be protecting. The welfare state can only fund itself by taking money away from someone who worked hard for it in order to give it to someone who did nothing to earn it. This is neither compassionate nor real charity because it is not voluntary, but is based upon coercion and force, if necessary.

            The French economist and philosopher, Frederic Bastiat, rightfully identified the 'moral' underpinning of the welfare state as legal plunder: "How is this legal plunder identified? Quite simply, see if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime....Now, legal plunder can be committed in an infinite number of ways. Thus we have an infinite number of plans for organizing it: tariffs, protection, benefits, subsidies, encouragements, progressive taxation, public schools, guaranteed jobs, guaranteed profits, minimum wages, a right to relief, a right to the tools of labor, free credit, and so on, and so on. All these plans as a whole, with their common aim of legal plunder, constitute socialism.”

            Bastiat then concludes: “This question of legal plunder must be settled once and for all, and there are only three ways to settle it: 1) The few plunder the many. 2) Everybody plunders everybody. 3) Nobody plunders anybody. We must make our choice among limited plunder, universal plunder, and no plunder. The law can follow only one of these three.”

            Our Founders roundly rejected the first two options. They embraced personal freedom where no one plunders anyone. This is why they made an income tax unconstitutional.

            Samuel Adams clearly opposed "legal plunder" when he wrote: " “The utopian schemes of leveling, and a community of goods, are as visionary and impracticable as those which invest all property in the Crown are arbitrary, despotic, and in our government, unconstitutional.” (1768)

            James Madison, the principal author of our Constitution, noted he proper role of government in 1792: “Government is constituted to protect property of every sort….This being the end of government. That alone is a just government which impartially secures to every man whatever is his own.”

            History records that Davy Crockett once made a speech before the House of Representatives, where he noted the clear difference between government welfare and true charity, based upon real compassion. Before the House that day was a bill to appropriate $10,000 to be given to the widow of a highly decorated naval officer. Crockett swayed the vote AGAINST the bill with this speech: "We cannot, without the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as a charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much money of our own as we please. I am the poorest man on the floor. I cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week’s pay to the object, and if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more than the bill asks."

            Crockett later noted with sadness and disappointment that his fellow Congressmen did not rise up to his challenge; instead, like today's progressives, they were only willing to be "compassionate and charitable" with other peoples' money but none of their own.

            At the heart of the liberals' beloved welfare state is immoral but 'legal' plunder which violates the rights of those being plundered in the pursuit of a false sense of 'justice'. It is neither compassionate nor charitable. It does not actually improve the welfare of its recipients. In short, it shouldn't be reformed - it should be ended.

            History teaches us that economic policy which violates moral principles is doomed to fail. Virtue begets harmony while the violation of moral law produces discord and evil "unintended consequences." Subsidizing poverty only produces more poverty, along with perpetual social and political strife. It creates government dependency by removing personal responsibility, hindering real charity in the process, and thereby weakening the bonds of brotherhood between us.

            A welfare state is a state living well below its economic potential and which, if not corrected with a return to firm moral and economic principles, one which will soon enough decay into economic chaos. We should heed the warning of General Douglas MacArthur who said: "History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline. There has been either a spiritual awakening to overcome the moral lapse, or a progressive deterioration to ultimate national disaster.”

            When liberals/progressives can finally reject the immoral welfare state; then, and ONLY then, can we make common cause.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 7:55 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405


            As Frank states in his final sentence, "Choose your sides carefully. No matter who wins, there will be losers."

            I tend to believe that most do not understand what their party stands for and that their personal affiliations would be quite different if they knew. So, here is a book you may want to read by Thomas Sowell. It is considered the major writing about the subject. The truth may set you free to reconsider, especially if you are a Progressive. Again, read it carefully, then read the book!

            http://cargomasterraster.blogspot.com/2010/08/august-book-of-month.html

            August Book of the Month
            A Conflict of Visions
            by Thomas Sowell
            Basic Books, 2007
            New York, NY 10016

            Introduction

            Many of our citizens lament the present lack of serious discussion in the political world that seems only to revolve about partisan venom, character assassinations, and juvenile discourse. They are prone to think such activities are something new to the country; and, that our problems could be solved if only this chattering mob resorted to civil language it would lead to compromise. However, in thinking so, they sorely misread our political history.

            Early Political Discussion

            Our country’s early political discourse among the populace, the politicians, and the overly partisan newspapers used such highly charged and venomous language that it led to beatings, duels, and the most outrageous of personal attacks. Much to the chagrin of Washington it began during his first term with Jefferson and Madison squaring off against Hamilton leading to the first political parties: Republicans and Federalists divided by their stands on States rights vs. Federal rights. Even so, and different from today, their arguments were motivated by early attempts to construct a framework of governance for a fledgling democratic country that lacked precedent, not necessarily adding to the political power of a party.

            Upon assuming the actual governing of our Republic, the Founding Fathers thus left behind them the impeccable manners they had used in dispensing wisdom among themselves to now expressing their beliefs with an unusually savage verbal vehemence. While coming face to face with the realities of their nascent political world, their divisive use of abusive language greatly surpassed that of today’s as it was enhanced by the gloriously richness of the 18th century style of written communication. After all, they were revolutionaries with high energy and with even higher personal philosophical goals that often clashed when practical policy implementation was confronted. It has been thus ever since, and it will be thus as long as we are a democracy. How can it be otherwise? . Compromise is the acceptance of less by each side and is usually twice as costly to those who pay the bill. It also exposes the two sides to political danger or disgrace, so gridlock becomes less painful and less costly. In turn, that may be more productive.

            The Two Visions

            In order for one to better understand this never ending struggle of political ideas one need only to read A Conflict of Visions, by Thomas Sowell. Here the story of the two controversial and opposing visions of governing that revolves around generations of ethical and ideological political disputes is told. Dr. Sowell has written a classic with remarkable insight by framing the discussion as a ‘constrained’ or an ‘unconstrained’ vision of the people who are to be governed by those who govern. His arguments are persuasively outlined, clearly detailed, and fundamentally appropriate in today’s political environment. These visions have troublesome communications, as there are few commonalities, so participants tend to talk past one another. There is little or no room for compromise.

            Dr. Sowell uses the human nature of man, such as man’s ultimate potential and ultimate limitations, as the framework for his analysis. The dynamism of a capitalistic democracy that is ever changing, that embraces free speech, and that is governed as a republic suggests a forced end to the controversy by one side or the other to be the end of our personal liberties. Despotism would rise as the victor.

            This basic conflict about governance has been the fuel for the best of mankind and the worst; and, it is at the forefront of our democratic world that struggles to govern mainly through political parties. However, the folly of the argument for our country lies in the fact that the Constitution is largely one of a constrained view of the people to be governed. There should be no argument as our Founders’ goal was to construct a governance system that allowed man his individual freedom to be all that he can be. As you will see, that is far different than the unconstrained view of Progressives.

            The Unconstrained Vision

            The tradition inherent to the unconstrained view is the conviction that immoral or foolish choices explain the evils of the world and that wiser social policies are the solution to create a more humane society. In other words, the social engineering that seems to come naturally to academics, journalists, and Progressive politicians as they deem themselves wiser then the individual to make decisions about how one should live. They believe that a larger, centrally controlled apparatus is better for the individual than the individual is for himself. It is always found in fascism, communism, and socialism. In fact, it is the central theme for each of these and the end result has always been a disaster for those subjected to it, and seldom bloodless. It is the false promise of a utopia failed.

            The present administration has ushered into our society some of the most radical social changes the country has ever experienced while acting within their unconstrained view of those they govern. Progressives have been largely guided by concepts that revolve around intentions and using words such as sincerity, commitment, and dedication all leading to the social justice they desire, usually the controlled conduct of our personal and economic lives. They create social contrivances through their artificial logic without regard to the unpleasant side effects that deceptive reasoning always produces. Their unconstrained view of governing largely rejects the doctrine of American exceptionalism and its values of self-reliance. It thusly rejects one’s own private stock of reasoning for guidance to his life’s concerns. They are viewed as the Liberals/Progressives among us.

            The Constrained Vision

            Turning to this vision, and as Sowell points out, those favoring the constrained vision put little faith in those deliberately designed social processes touted by the unconstrained vision since there is so little faith that any set of decision-makers could cope with the enormous complexities of designing an appropriate system of morality or politics for governance. In fact, the constrained vision does not envision any man-made social contrivance that would encompass the values and be more worthy than those that have historically evolved with their systemic order and without a deliberate design.

            The constrained vision sees freedom as finite and that government power is accumulated at the expense of private freedom. Hayek, Smith, Hamilton, Burke, and our Founders were proponents of the constrained vision of governance for those to be governed and thus it became the basis for our Constitution. Those who value free trade, limited government, rational decision-making, are Constitutionalists, and believe that the bigger the government, the less free the society, make-up the present day body of citizens favoring a constrained view of governance. They are viewed as the Conservatives among us.

            The Disease of Progressivism

            As opposed to the unconstrained view, the constrained view accepts its citizen’s own private stock of reasoning as appropriate guidance for life’s concerns. That was the basis for our revolution, for our Constitution, and for our nation’s guidance until the Progressive era began at the turn of the 20th century. However, Europe has long been infected with ‘the disease of progressivism’ in the form of socialism but is now running from it, just as we seem to be embracing it. Central planning has never been the American way and it remains to be seen if out citizenry accepts it as a way of life.

            The Conflict of Visions

            The embittered politics engendered by these visions has reigned unabated and presently pervades all branches of our government. As Sowell states, “These are not merely differences of visions, but conflicts of vision.” That is why there is little compromise and may never be. Sowell opines that the moral impulse driving each vision cannot be jettisoned for the sake of winning, without making the victory meaningless. The acceptance of the best paradigm for the governing to govern has always been a fight to the finish, and a mean fight it is. But, in the long run of history, that may be in the best interest of the governed if they are engaged as well.

            For those readers wanting a better understanding of the political conflict raging among us and between our two party system, I know of no better writing than A Conflict of Visions: Ideological Origins of Political Struggle, by Thomas Sowell. Your effort will be well rewarded and your mind may be set more at ease, or it may not! Enjoy.

            Richard Spencer
            39th ATS, Dover AFB,
            1962-1965
            Posted by Papa Hans

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 7:36 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            I believe that there are many myths re Hamilton, so here is a review I wrote some five years ago by McDonald known to be his major biographer. Much of the confusion exists as in the early years of the country the arguments were about how to form a future for this dream of the Founders. Read the review very carefully as it is different today so present confusion as to their actions are generally misplaced, at least that is my opinion. RLS

            http://cargomasterraster.blogspot.com/2008/07/june-book-of-month.html


            June Book of the Month
            Alexander Hamilton: A Biography
            By
            Forrest McDonald
            Published as a Norton Paperback 1982

            In my earlier notes published upon our C-133 site referring to this series of book reviews about ordinary citizens from ordinary backgrounds that stepped forth upon the National stage to defend and to ultimately play a major role in the development of our Country, I now turn to my favorite founder of America, Alexander Hamilton.

            The major reason I turn to Hamilton is that his early political and economic theories led to the United States becoming the richest, most powerful, and freest nation in the history of the world. Each of us owes our richness of life to him alone as he struggled with his dream of allowing every citizen the freedom and chance to be all that one could be. Winning that struggle created the framework for this historic phenomenon we have with so many citizens from ordinary origins rising to such greatness in defense of the Nation.

            Forrest McDonald, as he likes to say, spends his life in the 18th Century. As a professor of history at the University of Alabama, he has authored numerous texts about America’s gestation and among those was the biography of Hamilton. His interest in doing so was because of his surprise at Hamilton’s treatment by other historians who professed neither expertise nor interest in the areas of Hamilton’s greatest contributions: economics, finance, and the law. Also, all had failed to delve into the development of Hamilton’s intellectual life that led to his prescient national and worldview.

            How did Hamilton come to dream the dream about an effective and enduring national government that would set its citizens free to act in their own best personal and economic interest but retain the desire to defend the country with their last full measure of devotion? McDonald notes our early history was failing to reward man’s individual industry as status came from personal relations, family connections, ownership of land, and birthright. Hamilton had none of these and felt it was inherently unjust for those citizens in a Democracy to be encumbered by such a social order. Hamilton’s genius was to devise an economic system based upon money as money is blind and is the ultimate, neutral, impersonal arbiter that stimulates growth, change, prosperity, and national strength. Here, the fruits of one’s labor would justly reward industrious citizens, as money would become the universal measure of the value of things.

            Hamilton accomplished this miracle in the face of severe resistance, especially from Jefferson and his followers. This fascinating and definitive biography of Alexander Hamilton by Forrest McDonald vividly describes the efforts by Jefferson, the Jefferson heirs, and the Jacksonian Democrats to destroy effective national government in order that each state could make its own rules. Those in the South adopted Jeffersonian rules and their society rested upon the land, upon slavery, and upon the exercise of force without the impartial restraint of law. Others adopted Hamiltonian rules and their society rested upon the market, free labor, contractual relationships, and law. The Civil War brought about the triumph of Hamilton’s way leaving the Jeffersonian South in disrepair for decades.

            More so today, Hamilton’s one-man mission would seem an unlikely and impossible task; but, it is the early history of our country and it was the success of his personal leadership and intellect. McDonald notes that the American nation reached the peak of its Hamiltonian greatness in the middle of the twentieth century and after that it became increasingly Jeffersonian. He further notes we became governed by coercion and the party spirit, our people increasingly more dependent and less self-reliant, our decline candy–coated with rhetoric of liberty and equality and justice for all.

            Hamilton would have “cried for his country” as his dream was slowly destroyed by modern political parties seeking power through a strategy that would institutionalize massive federal government largess rather than continuing with the limited, but effective, federal role that provided a fluid and orderly society open to merit. National elections have now become a focus to redistribute the levied wealth that was personally earned through the industry of its citizens further empowering political parties. That would certainly be an anathema to Hamilton.

            Today’s deviation from the original principles of Hamiltonian theories that were designed to provide an orderly society through a limited federal role to defend the country, to provide for interstate commerce, and to negotiate international affairs of State has presently divided the country to the extent that it borders upon political paralysis. Currently, congress is the least trusted of any of our major political and national institutions. If Hamilton’s vision is forever denied, what replaces it?

            Alexander Hamilton died July 12, 1804 after suffering a bullet wound the previous day in a duel instigated by Aaron Burr. At the early age of 47 one of America’s most prodigious founders had fallen to the ‘code duello’. Hamilton thought the challenge was brought about by fifteen years of an acrimonious political rivalry between the two where Hamilton had repeatedly thwarted Burr’s ambition. Hamilton considered Burr irresponsible and lacking serious principle. But, the prejudices of the country would have regarded Hamilton as a coward had he not accepted Burr’s challenge and he would have forever been denied the prospect of future public service. It is not known whether Burr miscalculated in firing as gentlemen and men of honor usually and deliberately missed and Hamilton had made that his intention to Burr. McDonald sadly writes, “About two o’clock in the afternoon of July 12, his Maker took him.”

            If you are interested in the political and economic foundations of early America, this is the book for you. To find out more about it, and buy it for $2.60, click on: ALEXANDER HAMILTON: A BIOGRAPHY

            Reviewed by:
            Richard L. Spencer
            39th ATS, DAFB
            1962-1965

             
          • Bronco posted at 6:56 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Frank: big government is dangerous and causes as much injustice as it solves
            --------------
            I wholeheartedly agree. Would you agree that it's too late for either extreme, liberals or conservatives, to effectively manage solutions to the most crucial issues?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:28 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Hamilton also dropped out of college and was not the best economist. Sure Hamilton became Secretary of Treasury for George Washington however the true liberals or sons of liberty knew the USA needed a central bank. They needed to mint currency and the Federal reserve was formed. Taxation was still required. The revolution with England wasn't about protesting all taxes and new there would be a need for public schools, Colleges, state governments. Progress as a nation had to continue. The conservatives were the enemy of our great nation during the Revolutionary War. The King of England had too much control over the colonies and it took brave liberals to defeat them.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 6:15 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            The Highlander posted at 2:55 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            ...........Hear, Hear...........!!!

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 6:03 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            re; Highlander - ignore IABD, just one of the noxious weeds, makes no sense at all.[beam]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:56 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Frank Miele- 'Hamilton, on the other hand, like all good liberals, thought that people would make a muck of it if they were given their free hand.'


            IABD- Alexander Hamilton was never President of the United States. He was not born in the US, therefore, could not be president. Who writes your script?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:17 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            The Highlander posted at 4:35 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013

            IABD- How much do you pay your farmhands? Do you pay a subminimum wage for Montana farm labor.? Or do you hire illegals and let them sharecrop for you?

             
          • The Highlander posted at 4:35 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            The Highlander Posts: 4

            Well, 'Beautiful Day,' you prove my point. You immediately assumed incorrectly that I am some kind of rich factory owner/survivalist/snake charmer or whatever. As a matter of fact, I border on the poverty line, am in my 70s, have never been to a massage parlor or a snake charmer, am a retired Vietnam veteran and farmer....not that I wouldn't like the income from owning a factory! You prove my point - you know nothing about me, so you attack by making a series of outlandish, erroneous, nasty, personal attacks. You cannot defend your position, so you take the progressive fall-back position of attacking the messenger. Glacier National Park sounds good too, but I don't think my pension will ever put me there.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:45 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            The Highlander posted at 2:55 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            Are you a real live stunt double for HTC today? I assume you too plan to live someday in your private Glacier National Park in a gated community in a private mansion with the Koch Bros. Of course it will have to be named Brian Schweitzerland Park where you can demonstrate trickledown economics after grabbing an old beer from your 1950's survival shelter. You can always tell your non-union employees working in your factory in the valley below to avoid real doctors and have a cold one on the gipper or go down to the massage parlor and ask for Miss Kitty or see a faith-healer. It work's like a snake charm every time doesn't it Mr. H?

             
          • bill39 posted at 3:33 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            bill39 Posts: 1052

            The Highlander : Great article.

            [thumbup]

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:08 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Dear Mr. Editor, Your title should read:

            "The struggle for power and the cost of con science"

            Sci-Fi based Scientology, the Mormons and the Koch Bros. have been pronouncing it wrong for years. Con science has always meant bogus science with criminal intent.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 2:56 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Well written Frank. One of the things truly noxious about this particular regime is the genuine lack of honesty. Chairman Obama has issued many decrees and declarations of "magnificent gov't action to cure all ills" and so little has actually come to pass. Along the same line, the disaster of obama/demo-dummy care, which promises so much, and will ultimately cripple healthcare just may come to pass. The bottom line quite simply is that big gov't is largely an obstacle to human care, and more often a cause for concern. This is particularly true when one considers the appalling lack of integrity within this regime.

             
          • The Highlander posted at 2:55 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            The Highlander Posts: 4

            Great article. I think the battle is between the supporters of Liberty VS Progressives. Basically it's about the purpose of government. your viewpoints weren't nasty nor ridiculous. The progressive argument is always emotional and devoid of reasoned, logical thought. Tea Party extremism was introduced as a straw man with the implied hint of no conscience. Next they introduce the blameless victim who can't manage their life unless a Progressive run gov. overcomes the greedy mean spirited rich by sharing the ill-gotten wealth and controlling all aspects of life and culture.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:57 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTwqkl8BqSc

             
          • kohana posted at 1:56 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Wonderful, already starting the week with attacking the editor instead of paying attention to his message. I can understand his sarcasm as I occasionally feel the same way. However, if you oppose his message, why don't you give good concrete evidence in your responses, instead of cutting down the messenger. Calling him names is a juvenile response. It would be nice having adults in the room discussing pros and cons.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 1:39 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Editor posted at 12:33 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.
            "The question is what do you do with your conscience......"

            con·science
            ˈkänCHəns/Submit
            noun
            noun: conscience; plural noun: consciences
            1.
            an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior.
            "he had a guilty conscience about his desires"
            synonyms: sense of right and wrong, moral sense, inner voice; morals, standards, values, principles, ethics, beliefs; compunction, scruples, qualms
            "her conscience would not allow her to remain silent"
            Origin
            Middle English (also in the sense ‘inner thoughts or knowledge’): via Old French from Latin conscientia , from conscient- ‘being privy to,’ from the verb conscire , from con- ‘with’ + scire ‘know.’
            -------------------------------------------------------------
            http://www.dailywritingtips.com/conscience-vs-conscious/
            -----------------------------------------------------------------
            We have the most expensive Health Care System in the world, yet are 33rd in Life Expectancy. In the countries that comprise the 1st World, a heart attack is a health issue only......in the U.S. it is a health issue and a huge Financial Issue.
            Something has got to change?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:35 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Bronco - Montana newspaper editors don't make make much of a livable income. I don't know what editorial columnists in Honolulu make but I bet make more than struggling Montana writers ever get. Even in the mainly all men's club throughout Montana publishing history of political columnists, there is not much of a trickle down reward from the DIL's owner for Frank's effort. Women authors in Montana were even poorer and were not properly recognized or honored. The local John Birch Society always made sure of that..

            http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/22/opinion/greene-dorothy-johnson-liberty-valance/index.html?eref=igoogledmn_topstories

             
          • posted at 12:33 pm on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            Posts:

            Hi Bronco: Actually conservatives are against injustice too, and liberals also have a conscience. The question is what do you do with your conscience, and how do you fight injustice? I think a good place to meet in t he center would be to agree that big government is dangerous and causes as much injustice as it solves? Can I get a great big liberal amen to that one? Or even a moderate amen? Because if we can't agree about that, then there is definitely no ope for a middle ground...

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:27 am on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Didn't get much sleep last night. I was searching for something.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSq4B_zHqPM

             
          • Bronco posted at 8:25 am on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Frank: “Whereas liberals seek to wage war on injustice by wielding the power of big government, conservatives wage war against big government by wielding the power of conscience.”
            -----------------
            Translation: Liberals are against injustice. Only conservatives have a conscience.

            I urge all of you to travel around, hang out with people of color, people down and out, just get away from Fort Middle-Class Caucasia for awhile. Then tell me exactly how those conservative solutions are going to succeed. To put it bluntly, those solutions will bring about a police state. We're outnumbered. It's over.
            Your solutions will bring sky-rocketing unemployment, which translates to a flood of desperate people who want to survive, and survive at a standard of living beyond mere day-to-day survival. You say that'll only last awhile, then things will settle down. Get real.
            The have-not, well-armed conservatives will turn on you too. What we need are centrist solutions to these problems. The wealth is tipped, and held by those very 'job creators' you love so much.
            So, where are the jobs if they hold 40% of the nation's wealth? The top 1% of this nation hold 40% of its wealth and they ain't creating ANY jobs with their hoard. But conservatives, they love they rich mastahs.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ehzfQ4hAQ

            Neither extreme has any real solution. And, Frank, I know you mean well, but reality speaks a different language than liberal or conservative. Perhaps a centrist approach, one that includes rather than divides, would be a better tactic.

            Obamacare is before its time. That needs to go. But the gloating by the GOP will be so over-the-top that it'll invite undesirable reactions by many. People are confused; people are scared. Both extremes use fear tactics to gain support. That shiit has to stop. Perhaps it should start to stop here...in the Two Cents.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:32 am on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            IABD- The Daily-Chronic-Complaint's partisan transparency is quite evident to everyone in the community. But please don't be cruel, Mr. Miele is only writing what the owner and publishers demands.

            Frank will continue his never ending unipolar commentary even if the DIL shrinks the paper's length and width ever smaller. The price of the paper will still increase even if it is mostly advertising with a larger obituary section filled with more younger people who cannot reach early retirement having become homeless and falling through the cracks in the system.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:08 am on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://usat.ly/1f4EGn5
            "Rove: GOP must offer health care alternative"

            We all know the medical system as it existed in 2008 was messed up, and it appears the 'fix' is merely going to mess it up more, unless the 'fix' is fixed.

            A personal example of the problem......I have Agent Orange induced Type 2 Diabetes, which I control through diet and exercise. Every 3+ months, I go down for an A1c blood test to get a look at my overall glucose level at the cellular level......The test costs, as of last week, $109.00 if I were to pay cash. My Blue Cross 'discount' means I pay $27.00, since I have a $5,000.00 deductible. IT"S ABSURD! And we all know it.

            Call Rove drives me nuts, BUT!, he's smart and he's on to something. American's are sick and tired of the negative whining from the Right, and want a fix. What would a 'fix' look like? That's what needs to be discussed. Of course, class warfare will probably arise amongst the 'thinkers' and 'champions' of said classes of individuals, especially when Corporations and Unions start paying the same rate as individuals. Us individuals are sick and tired of subsidizing you guys, Frank. [wink]

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 1:14 am on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            ............exceedingly S L O W post times............[thumbdown]

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 12:50 am on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            SorrySOB posted at 8:02 pm on Sat, Sep 21, 2013

            ...............bite me..............!!!

            [sad]

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 12:48 am on Sun, Sep 22, 2013.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            FRANK:

            "If I sound a little bitter, don’t worry. It’s nothing that a little medical intervention won’t solve. And when that Obamacare kicks in on January 1, I’ll be able to get a 100 percent reimbursable checkup to find out what ails me. Maybe those government-funded doctors will be able to give me a shot or a pill or just shrink my head so that I fit in better with the small-minded people who run things these days."

            AMEN............I've been operating under the same assumptions for at least 20 years.

            [thumbup]

             
          • who new posted at 11:36 pm on Sat, Sep 21, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            jennydoe: “If you look around, there are an awful lot of average folks that are downright lousy at managing their own lives.”

            I’m willing to bet I feel as much compassion as you do for folks who find themselves in difficult circumstances, jennydoe. Being a generous person, I have given substantial resources of time and money to help them using my own personal parameters. I do this because I think it is the right thing to do.

            What I resent is government severely limiting my ability to give to others by taking my money (through excessive taxes) to fund programs I don’t necessarily agree with. And this is justified because of some nebulous rationale using the word “democracy”. Your post makes it obvious you have compassion for the welfare of children. I believe you would be opposed to federal subsidies for oil companies, like those owned by the Koch brothers. Do you think we should vote on these types of federal expenditures or wouldn’t you agree that it would be better if the government took the position that these matters are reserved for personal spending discretion and the ability of the free market to resolve?

            I think Frank is spot on in his opinion piece; he just should have left out the sarcasm.

            Frank: “Whereas liberals seek to wage war on injustice by wielding the power of big government, conservatives wage war against big government by wielding the power of conscience.”

            No sarcasm. Great line.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 8:12 pm on Sat, Sep 21, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            Frank, your beginning article in HTIC’s blog started out fairly interesting, then nasty, then outright ridiculous. What ever happened to people just being “Americans” ? Or were they never? I think what you say only divides people.
            If you look around, there are an awful lot of average folks that are downright lousy at managing their own lives. There was a time where I wasn’t so good at managing my life due to horrifying circumstances. What ever happened to just being American? Extreme groups are just that. Nobody in their right mind took the ‘Tea Party’ seriously when they initially named themselves after a derogatory sexual act. The Koch brothers should be taken seriously. They are sick minded men. With a lot of political influence, otherwise known as too much money. Did you see the commercial just put out by one of them with an Uncle Sam caricature going after a college woman sporting a speculum and deranged smile? The commercial actually tells people to break the law. Opt out of the ACA. But if you’re into that sort of stuff I guess it’s okay? If that isn’t the kind of marketing the sheep follow I’m sure they’ll spend more money.

            No one I know, anywhere, anytime feels our tax dollars are being spent appropriately, but I approve of the government shrinking
            your head and prescribing you cannabis. I totally agree with freedom combined with personal responsibility and don’t like the police state our nation
            has become. I am American. I care about other Americans. Over the last 50 years it has become very disgusting with the blame game. I have no idea whether my parents were liberals or conservatives, I just know they both worked hard to provide my siblings and I a halfway decent life filled with morals and integrity. If the power of conscience lets you sleep better at night knowing American children will be hungrier if the conservatives get their way, good luck protecting your food stash.
            If we don’t work together as American’s there will be no winners.

             
          • SorrySOB posted at 8:02 pm on Sat, Sep 21, 2013.

            SorrySOB Posts: 484

            Yes Frank, you sound bitter. Bitter, defeated, and over the top filled with sorrow. It's soap opera script material at its finest. Now where have I heard all that that before? Oh yes, I believe it started in 2008 and has had a weekly episode since. Only now you have more to cry about for the new season as the House Republicans (the "insignificant" tea party favorites) have just about trashed any hope for even a little comeback that you might have been hoping for in 2014.

             
          • kohana posted at 7:31 pm on Sat, Sep 21, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Wow! Frank, a powerful message. Hopefully those who agree with you will speak up.