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Two killers: Which received justice?

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Posted: Saturday, February 16, 2013 7:00 pm

They say that justice delayed is justice denied. If that is the case, then surely the families of Harvey Mad Man and Thomas Running Rabbit can rightly complain that there is no justice in Montana.

The two men were murdered execution style in 1982 by Ronald Allen Smith, who during his trial confessed to the murder and said he had wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. He also rejected a plea bargain for life in prison and insisted on the death penalty. He got his wish, and then, three weeks later, got cold feet, deciding apparently that he did not want to know “what it felt like” to die.

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          Welcome to the discussion.

          187 comments:

          • bill39 posted at 7:45 am on Sun, Feb 24, 2013.

            bill39 Posts: 1052

            HTC: That only makes sense in the world of the progressive, where the tyranny of the minority is forced upon the majority at nearly every turn.
            [thumbup] Right on!

            kohana: Jeesh! I thought the article was about ...............

            I am not missing ANYTHING by not reading that zero's posts. Even though some say his pastes are informative.

            kohana: Maybe the schools could build another bathroom...................

            Don't give the lefties another reason to spend more money wrecklessly, even though they would say it's "FOR THE CHILDREN".

            Another very informative column Frank. Thanks! Again.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:10 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328


            HTC: OK, while you're reloading after taking out the first two bad guys, the third guy will kill you, then rape your wife and kill her, too. But I'm sure she'll forgive you for your poor choice; after all, she's still with you after years of witnessing your long list of poor choices.
            ----------------
            You really are an idiot masquerading as a know-it-all, aren't you? This armed robbers/murderers/rapists are rampant in Columbia Falls? They sure are rare/non-existent in Hawaii. Maybe I should train up for a Down Syndrome uprising while I'm able???

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:34 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HTC: "I guess when you suffer from an inferiority complex, it's easy to perceive things in a way which enables you to take offense when none was intended or even visible to anyone else."

            IABD- The bionic tin-horn neoconservative libertarian disgruntled lawman from SF California reminds us to show no empathy or shed a tear for a Montana Native American. A racially and narcissistic superiority complex must be a mandatory part of the NRA's and William Shatner's neo Canadian prime directive strategy.

             
          • kohana posted at 6:56 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Here is an interesting young man, 16 years with the secret service.

            http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/22/why-is-this-month-old-clip-of-an-ex-secret-service-agent-suddenly-going-viral/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:53 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 6:17 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013

            IABD- "I'd pity the fool" and "death wish" in the same post?
            The fictional character "Mr. T" from the TV series "A-Team" was famous for 'I'd pity the fool' and always sprayed the bad guys with a fully-automatic weapon but never actually hit them ever.
            In the Charles Bronson movie series "Death Wish" only the bad guys used automatic weapons such as Uzis.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:35 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: ...check out the growing number of new artists who leave out Native Americans entirely with only a blank landscape without any signs of life at all. Is it becoming more profitable to paint Native Americans out of the picture?

            HTC: I guess when you suffer from an inferiority complex, it's easy to perceive things in a way which enables you to take offense when none was intended or even visible to anyone else.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:31 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: Governor Schweitzer stated: "I decided not to decide. There wasn't a recommendation. There was nothing really in front of me,"

            HTC: Just another of many cowardly Democrats....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:27 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            hennydoe: Montana Bill Would Give Corporations The Right To Vote

            HTC: Naturally you completely missed seeing the fundamental issue here which is that this country went to war for its independence from England in response to unfair taxation. Didn't you learn in school about the war slogan "No taxation without representation"?

            When a corporation or any real person who owns real property is subject to taxation on that property but has no voice in the elections which decide those tax issues, it is fundamentally unfair and unAmerican. Many real estate investors are in the same situation and they're real people.

            So don't ridicule conservatives who "get it" because you don't.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:17 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Next month the Charlie Russell Art Auction in Great Falls occurs from March 14th through the 17th. When bidding on historical western landscapes which include cowboys, Indians, horses etc., check out the growing number of new artists who leave out Native Americans entirely with only a blank landscape without any signs of life at all. Is it becoming more profitable to paint Native Americans out of the picture?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:17 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Bronco: So I think Uncle Joe's shotgun is the best answer for me...and I hope MY neighbors choose wisely also.

            HTC: OK, while you're reloading after taking out the first two bad guys, the third guy will kill you, then rape your wife and kill her, too. But I'm sure she'll forgive you for your poor choice; after all, she's still with you after years of witnessing your long list of poor choices.

            Bronco: How about you. HTC? Do you have 'spray and pray' neighbors willing to hose down intruders in YOUR direction?

            HTC: My neighbors are all skilled shootists and I'd pity the fool that wandered into any of their homes. My wife can punch out a 2" bullseye on a target at 30 ft. with one 32 round magazine in a full-auto Uzi. Anyone who takes her on really has a death wish.

            Of course, as you are frequently known to do, you raised a strawman argument by assuming that any of us would use NATO ammo in our AR's. That's a nasty little trick that you frequently resort to when you can't make a more reasoned argument using a likely real-world scenario. Your frequent use of that tactic displays a significant lack of intellectual integrity.

            Putting that aside for now, the AR-15/M-16 is a standard issue weapon for many SWAT teams and the preferred choice for room/building clearing. I"ve had formal training in just such scenarios and would prefer it in a multiple intruder scenario, especially since I can shoot through a wall when I know one of the perps is on the other side. Of course, most SWAT teams use frangible ammo with light armor piercing often in a separate magazine, just in case the perp is wearing a vest.

            So, my wife and family lives and yours doesn't.

            If I were you, I wouldn't thump my chest over that difference.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:03 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Bronco: Road to Columbia Falls...without Federal $$$

            HTC: That would be most roads in Hawaii, since you lead MT in federal 'welfare.'

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:14 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Family members of the victims, Harvey Mad Man and Thomas Running Rabbit, along with the Blackfeet Tribal Council, have pushed for enforcement of the death penalty. They have argued clemency for Smith could show less value is placed on the life of Native Americans when they are killed.

            The Montana Parole Board responded last May shortly after a lengthy hearing, arguing that "justice is best served" by continuing with the execution. They unanimously recommended that the governor reject the request and continue with the execution.

            Governor Schweitzer stated: "I decided not to decide. There wasn't a recommendation. There was nothing really in front of me,"

            Read more: http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/schweitzer-leaves-smith-case-for-bullock/article_e8ff71ef-1721-5279-979e-7e5d3e92e17d.html#ixzz2LlnrLchU

             
          • jennydoe posted at 4:48 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            Montana Bill Would Give Corporations The Right To Vote
            By Ian Millhiser on Feb 22, 2013 at 3:24 pm

            Montana State Rep. Steve Lavin (R)
            A bill introduced by Montana state Rep. Steve Lavin would give corporations the right to vote in municipal elections:

            Provision for vote by corporate property owner. (1) Subject to subsection (2), if a firm, partnership, company, or corporation owns real property within the municipality, the president, vice president, secretary, or other designee of the entity is eligible to vote in a municipal election as provided in [section 1].

            (2) The individual who is designated to vote by the entity is subject to the provisions of [section 1] and shall also provide to the election administrator documentation of the entity’s registration with the secretary of state under 35-1-217 and proof of the individual’s designation to vote on behalf of the entity.

            The idea that “corporations are people, my friend” as Mitt Romney put it, is sadly common among conservative lawmakers. Most significantly of all, the five conservative justices voted in Citizens United v. FEC to permit corporations to spend unlimited money to influence elections. Actually giving corporations the right to vote, however, is quite a step beyond what even this Supreme Court has embraced.

            The bill does contain some limits on these new corporate voting rights. Most significantly, corporations would not be entitled to vote in “school elections,” and the bill only applies to municipal elections. So state and federal elections would remain beyond the reach of the new corporate voters.

            In fairness to Lavin’s fellow lawmakers, this bill was tabled shortly after it came before a legislative committee, so it is unlikely to become law. A phone call to Lavin was not returned as of this writing.

            According to the Center for Media and Democracy, Lavin was a member of the American Legislative Exchange Council’s (ALEC) now defunct Public Safety and Elections Task Force. Last year, pressure from progressive groups forced ALEC to disband this task force, which, among other things, pushed voter suppression laws.

            http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/02/22/1628631/montana-bill-would-give-corporations-the-right-to-vote/?wethecorporations

             
          • jennydoe posted at 4:40 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HTIC posted at 11:27am
            -----------
            So you want to grow pot. Or you're worried the neighbors will.

            Marijuana is the botanical conversation piece that just won't go away. Reactions to it run a wild gamut: It's the evil weed or a source of future state tax revenue and entrepreneurial ingenuity. Or it's the only path left to freedom from pain for some people, and journalists should write about it with the same seriousness that they accord blood-pressure medicine.

            If you're 21 or older, Amendment 64 allows you to cultivate up to six marijuana plants in an "enclosed, locked space" in Colorado. (This is still illegal under federal law.)

            Sounds simple. But growing marijuana isn't easy, those who do it professionally say.

            Until 2014, it's illegal to sell plants to those without a medical-marijuana card.

            Growing cannabis from seed is possible but impractical.

            Such activities are subject to federal prosecution.

            One thing is certain: Legalization is changing the landscape of our state. Maybe not our yards, but surely our headspace, our parties, our neighborhoods and our lives. If we understand the plant, it will help us talk about that change using facts rather than fear or naive enthusiasm.

            We went to experts with the questions we felt any gardener and homeowner would have. Our interviewees for this story and video were Kayvan Khalatbari and Nick Hice, co-owners of Denver Relief, a medicinal-marijuana dispensary whose growing facility is home to about 1,900 marijuana plants.

            An overview of the basics

            Question: Where can Coloradans grow marijuana plants? Can people just stick them in a sunny window next to basil and aloe?

            Answer: A big thing to remember with marijuana plants is that they need to flower to produce THC ( tetrahydrocannabinol, the chemical that gets people high) and other medicinal cannabinoids. In order to do that, they need 12 hours of light and 12 hours of total darkness a day.

            So the best place to grow marijuana is in a room in the basement with a locked door so light doesn't inadvertently get in when the plants are "sleeping." If you don't have a basement, a small closet with light-leak protection around the door will work.

            Q: Is special growing equipment required?

            A: All sorts of prepackaged items are available, like grow boxes or grow tents, that are probably best for a small space like a closet, or fo r someone who doesn't want to get into growing marijuana too intensely.

            But if you're trying to get six plants to be as robust as possible, you probably need to install something that's more permanent, like a 400- to 600-watt lamp with a hood assembly that comes with a ballast, which you place at least a forearm's length above the plants.

            Keep in mind that the ballast is going to get very hot, so you need to have adequate cooling in the room as well, like a portable air conditioner with a thermostat. You

            You also have to watch humidity, because every time you water plants in a small space, you're going to get high humidity. It should be below 50 percent to prevent bud mold or rot.

            You can measure humidity with a hygrometer from a hardware or grow store, and reduce it with a dehumidifier or air conditioner.

            Q:How would a home grower comply with the rule that limits them to three plants in flower?

            A: That means you can grow only three plants if you don't have two separate growing areas. The reason

            Dozens of medicinal-marijuana plants grow under special lighting at Denver Relief. (Kathryn Scott Osler, The Denver Post)having only three plants is bad is that you want to keep a rotation going. Or else every time you get done harvesting, you have to go back to a store. If you want a continual supply, you want the perpetualness of having a vegetative stage and a flowering stage going all the time.

            Logistics and costs

            Q: How much does all this stuff cost?

            A: Most grow boxes are $200 to $400, but if you want one with HVAC temperature-control capabilities, it's pretty pricey — close to $1,000. You can find grow boxes at most local hydroponic stores or grow shops.

            A light system and building materials will run $350 to $1,000, and electricity costs per harvest are $100 to $200.

            Q:Where would a home grower get seeds?

            A: I actually never recommend starting a marijuana plant from seed, because you have to determine whether the seeds are male or female, which is difficult. Only female plants produce the flowers that are most desirable in terms of cannabinoid content. Male plants are pretty much unusable (for smoking purposes).

            The best thing to do is to buy a clone — a cutting from a proven plant. People who have red cards (medical-marijuana cards) can buy clones from medical-marijuana centers and grow their own plants. If you know somebody who grows, it is legal today (under state law) for a 21-year-old (or someone older) with a marijuana plant in Colorado to give another 21-year-old (or older) a clone from that plant. But if you don't know someone who grows, I don't see an option to legally purchase seeds or clones in this state before 2014, when retail marijuana facilities open.

            Cannabis botany 101

            Q:Tell us about the different strains of marijuana. How would people choose one?

            A: There are three types of cannabis — indica, sativa and ruderalis.

            Ruderalis is a ditch weed found in Europe with low THC content. The marijuana we're familiar with is indica and sativa. Indica has higher CBN (a type of cannabinoid) content, which relieves pain and makes you lethargic. Sativa has the highest psychoactive content, is energizing and provides lucid thought. Most everything available today is a hybrid (and) carries the characteristics of both indica and sativa.

            Indica-dominant hybrids are good for growing indoors, because they only get 2 to 3 feet tall from the top of the pot, with a diameter of 12 to 18 inches.

            Q:Isn't hemp a type of marijuana? Can that be grown in a house?

            A: Hemp is basically a cultivated variety of sativa. For several thousand years, it has been bred for tall growth, fibrous stems and low THC levels. It still has the medicinal cannabinoids, but you need so many hemp plants to get valuable cannabinoid content — more than 100 — that it wouldn't be worth growing at home.

            Care, air and food

            Q:What's next after obtaining clone plants?

            A: Place the clone in a pot filled with a planting medium. Although potting soil would technically work, we use a soilless growing media made from coco fiber, worm casings, perlite and vermiculite because it's developed specially for marijuana, even though (manufacturers) don't admit that. You can get premixed versions at grow stores — Royal Gold Tupur is a good brand.

            A lot of people use hydroponics, where plant roots are free flowing in what is essentially a circulating water bath. But that can be a problem for inexperienced growers, because if you accidentally add too many nutrients to the water, you can burn or kill the plants because the roots suck the extra nutrients right up. Soilless media act as a buffer to protect the roots.

            PHOTOS: Images from Denver Relief, a marijuana growing, dispensary, and consulting business

            Q:What type of container is used?

            A: Many people use 5-gallon plastic buckets, but those create problems because the roots just wrap around themselves and form a large root ball. If you use a 3- to 5-gallon fiber pot, the root sticks through the pot and (the plant) air-prunes itself, while feeder roots grow in the pot. That gives the plant a larger nutrient intake.

            Q:How are the plants fed and watered?

            A: Most nutrient products in hydroponic stores come with very easy-to-understand directions and a "recipe" and schedule on the side of the package that you can follow. You should also water the plants every two to three days with tap water that has sat in a container for 24 hours to let the chlorine evaporate.

            In addition, because you aren't growing the plants outside where carbon dioxide is abundant, you must supplement the indoor air with it. Many small-time growers use CO2 tanks (similar to those on a soda fountain machine) with a regulator valve. You can get these tanks from grow stores or beverage suppliers. You can also buy automatic controllers for the tanks that release CO2 at the ideal ratio of 1,250 to 1,550 parts per million.

            Getting to harvest

            Q:What gets done with the plants after they've been potted?

            A: Start with clones that are 4 to 5 inches tall, and give them 24-hour light until they reach 9 to 15 inches. If you keep temperatures below 80 degrees, this takes four to five weeks — less if you're growing hydroponically.

            Then you want to throw the plants into the flower cycle (12 hours of light followed by 12 hours of dark). During the second to third week of flowering, prune the bottom third of the plant so it puts its growth energy into the top once buds form.

            Q:Then what?

            A: Most plants are ready to harvest after 65 to 70 days of flowering. A good way to tell if the plant is harvestable is to get a 45x magnifying glass from a grow store and check out the trichomes on the flowers. Trichomes are the translucent resin glands that contain the cannabinoids. When they turn amber or a milky purple, you know they're ready. This sounds difficult, but it's actually pretty easy for the layman to do.

            Another option is, if about 80 percent of the flower's pistils turn orange or darker brown rather than white, then they're ready to harvest.

            Processing the harvest

            Q:OK, say a home grower successfully gets three pot plants to the final flowering stage. They're healthy and producing buds. How are they processed?

            A: When a plant is fully mature, some people cut it off at the base, then cut off the fan leaves and hang it upside down. After it's dried, they'll trim off all the outer "sugar" leaves (the single leaves close to the bud).

            What we think is best is to take down the plant and cut off all the leaves at once. If you leave the sugar leaves on, they may make the marijuana harsher. We trim so the (flower) bud has a clean egg shape, and use (the sugar leaves) to make concentrates to smoke, vaporize or cook with.

            Then you hang the plant upside down for about a week, until the stem snaps rather than bends. Conditions should be about 68 degrees with 50 percent humidity. If the plant dries too fast, it locks in the chlorophyll, making it taste like plant material instead of marijuana. If it gets too humid, it can mold.

            More questions, more answers

            Q:Where can people find legitimate, affordable pot-growing help?

            A: There's a 1,200-page book that is beyond most other books and pretty much says everything you need to know about marijuana growing: "Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Grower's Bible," by Jorge Cervantes (Van Patten Publishing, 2006). Our guys still keep it on hand, and they've been growing for 15 years.

            Q: Can THC be topically absorbed? Could people who grow fail a drug test if they touch their plants?

            A: You shouldn't have any issue with handling the plant, but the scent is very pronounced, so you may smell like marijuana.

            Q:What are the dangers for those who grow?

            A: Be discreet. You wouldn't tell everybody you have $2,000 just sitting on your nightstand, so don't tell everyone you have $500 to $1,000 worth of marijuana in your basement. Putting a lock on your growing-room door and installing a home security system is not a bad idea.

            Q: This is not something somebody who's not fully committed should do, is it?

            A: It is a daily, daily beast to take care of these plants. If you don't acknowledge something it's asking for for a day or two, you can lose two weeks of growth. Even if you do not mess up, that doesn't mean you're going to grow good marijuana.

            Edited from an interview with Kayvan Khalatbari, principal of Denver Relief Consulting.

            Read more: Marijuana: The truth about growing your own pot - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/grow/ci_22646080/marijuana-truth-about-growing-your-own-pot?source=pkg#ixzz2Llbcxjnj
            Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
            Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 3:57 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1565

            Bronco posted at 11:23 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Can't we just spontaneously abort them (after birth), if they don't meet OUR expectations?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:39 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Rob123 posted at 10:46 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.
            Rob123 to HTC-"You really need to stop quoting Sister Mary Dogma from your youth. It's just not fair, nor does it help the conversation."

            http://www.fourpawsacupuncture.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Sister-Mary-Smiles.jpg

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:52 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: When confronted with 3 gunmen in a home invasion robbery, would you prefer crazy Uncle Joe Biden's double-barrel shotgun or an AR-15 with a 20-round magazine?
            -------------------------
            Right on!!! Let's go with the standard NATO 5.56x45mm round which can penetrate up to 3 mm (about 1⁄8 in) of steel at 600 meters.[20] According to Nammo, a Norwegian ammunition producer, and can penetrate up to 12 mm (nearly 1⁄2 in) of RHA steel at 100 meters.
            And I have 20 rounds!!! But at such close range, the 5.56 ball doesn't yaw unit penetrating over 12 inches through a torso...which means nearly all bullets that DO hit a gunman will continue their trajectory through his/her body and into and likely through other objects as well. Interior walls are no challenge for the bullets. Exterior walls offer very little resistance unless one hits a stud full on. So these bullets could likely find my daughter, my wife, my sister-in-law or my niece if they are in the house too. Should they be lucky and unscathed, the neighbor couple living next door, westward, has a four-year-old. Across the street there are five grade-school children, their parents, their grandparents. To the east are Randy and his wife and their two kids, one preschooler and one in second grade. South of us is a big family too...nine or ten living in that house.
            So I think Uncle Joe's shotgun is the best answer for me...and I hope MY neighbors choose wisely also.
            How about you. HTC? Do you have 'spray and pray' neighbors willing to hose down intruders in YOUR direction? Bet you change your mind AFTER burying one of your kids. Cause of death: Collateral damage.
            If I was your neighbor and you told me of your home defense strategy, I'd empty my AK47 from my living room into your house while you were away with your family. Then I'd tell the cops I was turning away intruders. Hope you're more insured than you are enlightened.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 12:52 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: "So "dogma" is the word they use in place of "fact" in the everything's-relative PolySci world?"

            Well, I certainly don't. Of course, I am not absolutely certain that 'I have never....'. But relative to the Here and Now, I can say with conviction, it's you! Not me! So go ahead, and drive that Corvair.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:33 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:44 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Dr. HTC- "It's hard to fix anything when half of those involved in the discussion aren't even tethered to reality."

            IABD- The ancient libertarian medical practice of self-trepanation for the relief of dementia would naturally be more affordable to old folks who are less tethered to reality than what the Romney/Obama Care plan offers.
            How long have you been riding with the 'hole in the head' gang, Dr. H?

            http://www.figurerealm.com/userimages/customs/7000/6871-2.jpg

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:14 pm on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Road to Columbia Falls...without Federal $$$

            http://twentytwowords.com/2013/02/23/almost-impassably-pothole-ridden-ukrainian-highway/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:42 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            When confronted with 3 gunmen in a home invasion robbery, would you prefer crazy Uncle Joe Biden's double-barrel shotgun or an AR-15 with a 20-round magazine?

            http://www.khou.com/news/local/21-year-old-protects-family-kills-suspect-during-home-invasion-in-NW-Harris-County-192475271.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:38 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Seems defense tech secrets are spilling into China and elsewhere just as freely under this president as they did under Clinton:

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/22/nasa-missile-defense-tech-leaked-to-china-sources-say/?test=latestnews

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:27 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Must have been an 'assault' knife:

            French mother arrested for slitting throats of her 3 children
            February 22, 2013 | Sky News

            A French woman has been arrested after her three children were found with their throats slit at their home near Paris Friday.

            Two of the kids—a 9-year-old daughter and 11-year-old son—died of multiple stab wounds. Their 17-year-old brother was still alive when emergency services arrived, but later died of his wounds.

            Their father, a doctor, discovered the scene after returning home in the morning from work, according to judicial sources and police. He was reportedly in a state of shock.

            "The children had their throats slit but we are still awaiting forensic reports," authorities told Sky.

            Police launched a hunt for the mother after the bodies were found, eventually apprehending her and holding her in Paris.

            The family lived in a suburb east of Paris called Dampmart.

            Investigators said the couple was having marital problems.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:23 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: "It's hard to fix anything when half of those involved in the discussion aren't even tethered to reality."
            ...then...
            HTC: How about hard nonreligious science which makes clear that there are only TWO genders? I realize that, in the world of political science, there's far more politics than there is anything even remotely approaching science, but what's say we use that empirical and inarguable yardstick instead of the insane cribriform world of the progressive?
            And what kind of idiot thinks it makes sense, in a world where few suffer from "gender confusion", to impose discomfort on the normal, healthy majority so that the twisted minority aren't made uncomfortable?
            That only makes sense in the world of the progressive, where the tyranny of the minority is forced upon the majority at nearly every turn.
            --------------------------------
            Intersexuals are:
            1) individuals born with ambiguous genitalia such as penises that look small enough to be clitorises or clitorises that look large enough to be penises;
            2) people whose bodies develop sexually along unexpected paths, such as infants with “5-alpha reductase deficiency” who may be mistakenly categorized as girls at birth, but who at puberty develop beards, lower voices, and larger penises;
            3) people who reject their assigned sex category and feel they are in the “wrong” body.

            Chromosomally, there are FIVE sexes.

            Usually XX =female and XY = male
            What about these situations?
            XO and XXX or XYYs and XXYs?
            Not all variations in biological sex are chromosomal:
            Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) is a condition related to steroid hormone production that masculinizes XX individuals.
            There’s also Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) which was the condition that made Patino feminine despite her Y chromosome, it causes XY children to develop female genitalia.
            Hermaphroditism and gonadal dysgenesis—abnormal gonadal development—refers to various conditions in which individual anatomies include gonads or secondary

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:58 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123 posted at 10:46 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            So "dogma" is the word they use in place of "fact" in the everything's-relative PolySci world?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:46 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: "It's hard to fix anything when half of those involved in the discussion aren't even tethered to reality."

            You really need to stop quoting Sister Mary Dogma from your youth. It's just not fair, nor does it help the conversation.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:44 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: Soooo, there is nothing that can be done, except live with it?

            HTC: Well, if you're personally worried about it, you can obtain and wear body armor.

            The problem isn't guns - it's a sick society that mollycoddles developing perps while simultaneously making the world safer for them by disarming their future victims.

            Social problems are very difficult to correct, especially when half of the country refuses to recognize them and insists on easy 'solutions' which only further exacerbate the problem.

            Just as most Democrats refuse to acknowledge our spending problem which is bankrupting our nation and destroying our childrens' futures, they refuse to acknowledge the real issues behind the violence which claims so many innocent lives every year.

            It's hard to fix anything when half of those involved in the discussion aren't even tethered to reality.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:37 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Obama says that government will protect us from irresponsible and greedy corporations; but, who will protect us from government?

            http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/23/6-underground-hanford-nuclear-tanks-leaking-washington-governor-says/

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:01 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: "The only thing requiring remedy is the left's profound ignorance of the facts and their emotional, rather than intellectual, approach to the issue. They are fish which can neither swim nor climb."

            Soooo, there is nothing that can be done, except live with it? Did you have a Corvair in High School? Still a little angry about that? "What a fun car!".

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:35 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: Albert Einstein - "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

            HTC: It is generally believed that the quote is from "The Rhythm of Life : Living Every Day with Passion and Purpose" (2004) by Matthew Kelly, p. 80. And climbing fish do exist:

            http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090121122947.htm

            Rob123: The common wisdom, promulgated by carmakers since the 1920s, held that traffic fatalities were exclusively the fault of individual drivers (or, to put it another way: cars don't kill people; drivers kill people). This assertion, of course, was false, but at the time we had no way of knowing for certain, because we lacked data on the proximate causes of accident deaths.

            We now find ourselves in a similar state of ignorance regarding gun fatalities.

            HTC: Anyone heard of a gun, free from any human manipulation of it, which has shot at, let alone wounded or killed someone on its own? Their suggestion that it is guns which kill people and not people who kill people is the kind of passionate liberal nonsense which long ago began to dominate too many pages in that rag and is the reason why I finally cancelled my subscription.

            Guns, unlike cars, are meant to kill. They even acknowledge that, yet still cling to their asinine insistence of equivalency. Failure to practice safe gun storage and use, just like unsafe driving, is what leads to accidents. There is nothing inherently 'dangerous' in modern gun designs which needs to be 'fixed.'

            The only thing requiring remedy is the left's profound ignorance of the facts and their emotional, rather than intellectual, approach to the issue. They are fish which can neither swim nor climb.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:10 am on Sat, Feb 23, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Albert Einstein - "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

            http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-slow-firearm-death-without-banning-all-guns

            How to Slow Firearm Deaths Without Banning All Guns
            "Like it or not, guns are here to stay. To keep ourselves safer, we must study how they are used to kill"

            "Like the firearms industry today, the automobile industry at midcentury was central to American culture and identity. Cars were big and beautiful, throbbing with power. Yet with that power came danger. By the 1960s motor vehicle accidents killed more than 50,000 people a year. The common wisdom, promulgated by carmakers since the 1920s, held that traffic fatalities were exclusively the fault of individual drivers (or, to put it another way: cars don't kill people; drivers kill people). This assertion, of course, was false, but at the time we had no way of knowing for certain, because we lacked data on the proximate causes of accident deaths.

            We now find ourselves in a similar state of ignorance regarding gun fatalities. What factors shape the risk that a gun will be used for violence? What technologies (such as trigger locks) and policies (such as waiting periods) work best to reduce injuries and deaths? What is the relation—if any—between violent entertainment and actual violence? Guns, unlike cars, of course, are meant to kill, but why do they kill so many?"

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:31 pm on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            mooseberryinn: Kohana - exactly right. but still, the brain-dead Obamatons still scream his praises? He's a proven liar, a lousy economist, he fails to keep the oath of office, etc. etc. and still there are folks who think he is just wonderful. Amazing.

            HTC: Brings to mind Einstein's comment about the dangers of "passionate stupidity."

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 9:39 pm on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            Kohana - exactly right. but still, the brain-dead Obamatons still scream his praises? He's a proven liar, a lousy economist, he fails to keep the oath of office, etc. etc. and still there are folks who think he is just wonderful. Amazing.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:31 pm on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Bronco: H, you really should do research before you insult physically-challenged Americans.

            HTC: Clearly to anyone but a complete idiot, I did NOT insult men suffering from gynecomastia.

            So how long have you been a member of their support group?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:28 pm on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Bronco: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-26/san-francisco-is-americas-best-city-in-2012

            HTC: First of all, San Fran isn't Santa Cruz. Secondly, you'll notice that this article didn't rate it as a place to start or run a business, a category in which SFO REALLY sucks.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 8:13 pm on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=266153

            Israeli boutique 'pay toilet' chain debuts Mideast 'relief' plan.
            If the 'messiah' returned now, one would expect him to protest: "let my people go.!!!"

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:28 pm on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            kohana: "Maybe the schools could build another bathroom that states on the door, "undecideds" or perhaps, "she/he only." "

            That would be an easy School Levy to pass? Especially in Montucky. I can see all the local Superintendent's of Schools on Talk Radio trying to argue this using levy using Freud's An*l Stage of Development? I'm sure The Onion would pick right up on it. Of course, HTC would miss the satire, and just get angry before using it all as yet another defense of the 2nd Amendment?

             
          • kohana posted at 1:44 pm on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            http://ricochet.com/main-feed/The-Wages-of-Defenselessness

            The Wages of Defenselessness

            Dave Carter

            It's as common as it is entertaining to watch a politician steer his great procession of conviction and righteousness down a rhetorical road only to run smack into himself going the opposite direction. The Barack Obama who makes it steadily more difficult for law abiding citizens to acquire the firepower needed to defend life and hearth, for example, necessarily crosses the path of the Barack Obama who makes military weapons available to Mexican murderers and drug dealers, breezily bypassing those pesky background checks and limits on ammunition capacity. The Barack Obama who now speaks into microphones of his support for the Second Amendment bumps, platitude-first, into the Barack Obama who spoke to Professor John Lott when they both worked at the University of Chicago, and said, "I don't believe people should be able to own guns."

            As is usually the case, the heart is revealed more by action than word, and the actions taken thus far will result in a situation that inescapably favors the lawless. Absent a ground swell of remorseful cutthroats who turn in their high capacity magazines and "assault weapons," it will be the law-abiding citizen who is abused twice; once by his innate respect for the laws his government imposes, though they obstruct his ability to secure family and property, and once again by criminals who will exploit the vulnerabilities his obedience creates.

            Perhaps the President, who delights in festooning the stage with various people to lend an air of unimpeachable credibility to his prescriptions, can invite the family of Maurice Renard Harris to the podium for his next speech advocating ever more impediments to lawful gun ownership. Mr. Harris, 36 and unarmed (thereby exuding the virtues so many well-protected politicians extoll), died in his Miami home recently while trying to prevent armed intruders from entering his 11 year-old daughter's bedroom. He wrestled one of the men to the floor, where he was shot several times.

            Police accounts say armed men gained entry into the home before midnight and, according to the Miami Herald, "…demanded cash. When Harris said he didn't have any money, the men grabbed an unidentified item and headed toward a bedroom where the 11-year old-girl was sleeping."

            If only Mr. Harris had followed Department of Homeland Security guidelines for its own employees:

            1. Evacuate (Have an escape route and plan in mind. Leave your belongings behind. Keep your hands visible)
            2. Hide Out (Hide in an area out of the shooter's view. Block entry to your hiding place and lock the door. Silence your cell phone/pager.)
            3. Take Action (As a last resort and only when your life is in imminent danger. Attempt to incapacitate the shooter. Act with physical aggression and throw items at the shooter.)
            And remember boys and girls, "Law Enforcement is usually required to end an active shooter situation." Because your paternal government doesn't want you to take matters into your own hands.

            Or perhaps Mr. Harris could have borrowed from the University of Colorado's guidelines for self defense in a gun-free zone and vomited on the attackers instead. After all, as Zen Master and Colorado State Representative Joe Salazar, (D) advised, "It's why we have call boxes, it's why we have safe zones, it's why we have the whistles. Because you just don't know who you're gonna be shooting at." Granted, Salazar's advice was intended for university campuses, but aren't they the incubators of truly great ideas? Actually, no, …not in this case.

            I prefer wisdom gained under fire, in the real world. Mr. Evan Todd, who was wounded and survived the Columbine shootings, knows of what he speaks. And he speaks plain truth in his letter to President Obama, wherein he reminds the Utopian in Chief that:

            The evidence is very clear pertaining to the inadequacies of the assault weapons ban. It had little to no effect when it was in place from 1994 until 2004. It was during this time that I personally witnessed two fellow students murder twelve of my classmates and one teacher. The assault weapons ban did not deter these two murderers, nor did the other thirty-something laws that they broke.

            To which one might add that all the weapons ban accomplished on that awful day was to make impossible the sort of resistance that, at a minimum, could have saved lives, or perhaps even deterred the attack altogether. Mr. Todd goes on:

            …Why would you prefer criminals to have the ability to out-gun law-abiding citizens? Under this policy, criminals will still have their 30-round magazines, but the average American will not. Whose side are you on?

            A stinging and powerful rebuke if ever there was one,..and one that will go unanswered, at least by word. But for many of us who see the actions of a President busy cultivating and empowering Islamic fanaticism abroad, ostracizing our Israeli allies even as he arms the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, and hollowing our military while disarming American citizens, the question of whose side he is on is alarmingly clear.

            Mr. Obama has recently taken to using the language of the Founders to justify policies that subvert the nation's founding ideas. So to clarify, the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are meaningless without the individual means to secure them. Therefore, an assault on the individual's right to defend his life and property necessarily becomes an assault on the very rights and ideals upon which a great nation was founded, and for which generations of patriots have given their lives.

            http://ricochet.com/main-feed/The-Wages-of-Defenselessness

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:24 pm on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 4:35 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013

            When you gotta go you gotta go...If William Shatner found the door to any public restroom in the USA locked, he would boldly go where no Canadian has gone before.

             
          • kohana posted at 11:53 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Rob123 posted at 9:31 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013
            And where, pray tell, should a person with breasts and a pen/s urinate?

            Jeesh! I thought the article was about grammar school children, whose parents hadn't a clue as to their child's gender identity. Would one of these children have both breasts and a pen/s? Will urinals be put in the girl's bathrooms? Most of the children's bathrooms in schools I've seen have no doors on the stalls.

            Maybe the schools could build another bathroom that states on the door, "undesideds" or perhaps, "she/he only."

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:34 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: "And what kind of idiot thinks it makes sense, in a world where few suffer from "gender confusion", to impose discomfort on the normal, healthy majority so that the twisted minority aren't made uncomfortable?"
            ".....impose discomfort on the normal...."
            ------------------------------
            H, you really should do research before you insult physically-challenged Americans.

            http://www.007b.com/bra-men.php

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:29 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: Great! Let's make the progressive bunghole of the San Francisco Bay Area the standard for the rest of the nation!
            ---------------------------
            Perhaps we should.

            http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-26/san-francisco-is-americas-best-city-in-2012

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:36 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Companies have a new solution to ObamaCare's rising health-insurance costs: Break up their employees’ marriages.

            http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-your-boss-is-dumping-your-wife-2013-02-22

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 9:31 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1565

            RE: HighTechCowboy posted at 4:58 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Because dating is so expensive these days, I determined it would be better economically for me to get breast implants and be "treated" to dinner and dancing. Then I discovered I was much better (and cheaper) getting ONE breast implant and forget the dating process altogether!

            Hahahaha!

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:31 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: "And what kind of idiot thinks it makes sense, in a world where few suffer from "gender confusion", to impose discomfort on the normal, healthy majority so that the twisted minority aren't made uncomfortable?"
            ".....impose discomfort on the normal...."

            My gosh, you have it down to a science!
            And where, pray tell, should a person with breasts and a pen/s urinate?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:25 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            The Five Biggest Lies of Wall Street

            "Lie #1: Stocks will do well because U.S. corporations are in great shape.

            Well, some of them have a lot of cash in the bank. So what? They have a lot of debt, too. According to the Federal Reserve, the total liabilities of U.S. nonfinancial companies just hit a new, all-time high of $13.9 trillion. That’s up 40% from a decade ago.

            In other words, they owe about the same amount as the federal government. They’ve borrowed more than a trillion in the past three years alone.

            What? You hadn’t heard that? Surprise."

            Read the rest at:

            http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-5-biggest-lies-on-wall-street-2013-02-21?link=MW_popular

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:21 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            hennydoe: Santa Cruz doesn't have a problem with it....

            HTC: Great! Let's make the progressive bunghole of the San Francisco Bay Area the standard for the rest of the nation!

            The reason the UC Santa Cruz mascot is the banana slug is because it is symbolic of the mental speed of that pot-impaired community as a whole (or hole?).

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 9:21 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1565

            Bronco posted at 8:53 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            That doesn't fall in line with the right wings ideology of "keep 'em barefoot and pregnant"

            Ahhh, living life in a bubble, how comfy!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:18 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: ...I did my best to explain to him that REALLY there are 3 genders of people, something Buddhists seem to grasp better than those who use the 3 books of Abraham.

            HTC: How about hard nonreligious science which makes clear that there are only TWO genders? I realize that, in the world of political science, there's far more politics than there is anything even remotely approaching science, but what's say we use that empirical and inarguable yardstick instead of the insane cribriform world of the progressive?

            And what kind of idiot thinks it makes sense, in a world where few suffer from "gender confusion", to impose discomfort on the normal, healthy majority so that the twisted minority aren't made uncomfortable?

            That only makes sense in the world of the progressive, where the tyranny of the minority is forced upon the majority at nearly every turn.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:07 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Bronco: MANY AMERICAN WOMEN USE BIRTH CONTROL PILLS FOR NONCONTRACEPTIVE REASONS

            HTC; Quite true, and for the longest time, insurers paid for it when it was medically necessary, but not otherwise, when it was considered 'elective'. We should have left it that way because the forced addition over the years of more and more 'elective' coverage is one reason why health insurance is so expensive and it's now virtually impossible to find what used to be called "major medical only" policies which were much cheaper than today's plans. ObamaCare now eliminates those plans altogether.

            More importantly, nowhere does the Constitution give the government the power to redistribute income via welfare, ObamaCare or any other perverted progressive notion of "social justice." And before you jump to mention John Roberts' twisted decision in the case of ObamaCare, please allow me to remind you of Dred Scott. Just because the court rules a certain way, doesn't mean the ruling is consistent with the Constitution.

            In fact, Jefferson and many of the Founders feared the Judiciary and feared Americans taking the mistaken position that the Court was the final voice of authority on such things. Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison and others tried to make clear that the Constitution was a contract between the people and the government they were creating and making the government the final authority on whether or not that government was violating that contract made no sense at all. Literally a fox-guarding-the-henhouse scenario.

            Madison and others also tried to make it abundantly clear that "promoting the general welfare" is not equivalent to "providing the general welfare", no matter how many English-challenged progressive idiots insist otherwise.

            So, once again, there is no equivalency between exercising a right which is explicitly protected by the Constitution and one which simply doesn't exist in that contract.
            .

             
          • jennydoe posted at 5:13 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            HTIC posted: “What about the girl who loses a spot on that basketball team because a boy is able to play as a girl,”
            --------------
            Santa Cruz doesn't have a problem with it....

            http://www.mercurynews.com/samesexmarriage/ci_22498290/transgender-basketball-player-appreciated-santa-cruzs-class-fans

            "I'll display the best sportsmanship I can out there. I think it's important that I lay down good groundwork for everybody to see that, just because this person is a transsexual person doesn't make them a monster, it just makes them another human being," Ludwig said. "We have the same hurts and likes and we just want to be treated like everybody else. And I'll treat everybody else with respect as long as they deserve it."

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:12 am on Fri, Feb 22, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HighTechCowboy posted at 4:58 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013
            "Parents across Massachusetts are upset over new rules that would not only allow transgender students to use their restrooms of their choice ....."

            kohana posted at 9:49 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.
            Posts: 1477
            "Good grief! We are losing our common sense."
            -------------------------------------------------------------------
            What would be considered 'appropriate, common sense' behavior when sharing a public restroom with a transgender person?
            I remember taking my son to the restroom at the Denver Airport, he was in the 1st grade, and as we stood at the urinals relieving ourselves, a Vegas Showgirl type walked in and stood at the urinal next to my son. His eyes were as big as dollars, and it was quite a conversation piece for the next few hours as we waited for our connection. Outside of Australia, it was a first for me here in the States, and I did my best to explain to him that REALLY there are 3 genders of people, something Buddhists seem to grasp better than those who use the 3 books of Abraham.

            -----------------------------------------------------

             
          • kohana posted at 9:49 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            HighTechCowboy posted at 4:58 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013

            Good grief! We are losing our common sense.

             
          • Bronco posted at 8:53 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: So, there's no moral equivalency here unless this is simply too 'nuanced' for you.
            --------------------------
            MANY AMERICAN WOMEN USE BIRTH CONTROL PILLS FOR NONCONTRACEPTIVE REASONS

            One-Third of Teen Users Rely on the Pill Exclusively
            for These Purposes

            The most common reason U.S. women use oral contraceptive pills is to prevent pregnancy, but 14% of pill users—1.5 million women—rely on them exclusively for noncontraceptive purposes. The study documenting this finding, “Beyond Birth Control: The Overlooked Benefits of Oral Contraceptive Pills,” by Rachel K. Jones of the Guttmacher Institute, also found that more than half (58%) of all pill users rely on the method, at least in part, for purposes other than pregnancy prevention—meaning that only 42% use the pill exclusively for contraceptive reasons.
            The study—based on U.S government data from the National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG)—revealed that after pregnancy prevention (86%), the most common reasons women use the pill include reducing cramps or menstrual pain (31%); menstrual regulation, which for some women may help prevent migraines and other painful “side effects” of menstruation (28%); treatment of acne (14%); and treatment of endometriosis (4%). Additionally, it found that some 762,000 women who have never had sex use the pill, and they do so almost exclusively (99%) for noncontraceptive reasons.
            Menstrual-related disorders and irregular periods are particularly common during adolescence. Not surprisingly, the study found that teens aged 15–19 who use the pill are more likely to do so for non-contraceptive purposes (82%) than for birth control (67%). Moreover, 33% of teen pill users report using oral contraceptive pills solely for noncontraceptive purposes.
            “It is well established that oral contraceptives are essential health care because they prevent unintended pregnancies,” said study author Rachel K. Jones. “This study shows that there are other important health reasons why oral contraceptives should be readily available to the millions of women who rely on them each year.”
            Other hormonal methods such as the ring, patch, implant and IUD offer the same types of noncontraceptive benefits as the pill; however, this analysis was limited to oral contraceptive pills, because the NSFG did not ask about other hormonal methods. Given this limitation, the author suggests that the number of women relying on hormonal contraception for reasons other than pregnancy prevention is almost certainly higher than the 1.5 million estimated in this study.

             
          • wdnm posted at 7:08 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            wdnm Posts: 22

            Dear Editor Miele: The subject of your sentence is "killers." The pronoun for killers is "who" not "which." The fact that you can write "Which killer received justice?" is irrelevant as "which" in that sentence is not a pronoun but an adjective modifying killers.

            Sometimes ignorance is its own punishment, especially for those who routinely air theirs for all to see.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:18 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=pLgJ7pk0X-s

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:32 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 4:43 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HTC ... AKA: The agnostic thinking man's man, ponders to himself, "I think therefore I am not sure of anything, therefore everyone else must be dead wrong...Must find Bigfoot and not think too loudly...I must be cautious, a female Bigfoot DNA analyst may be scanning my hieroglyphic comments in my man-cave office room at the assault club factory at this very second."

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:58 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Progressive 'brown shirts' move deeper into public education:

            Students Who Refuse to Affirm Transgender Classmates Face Punishment
            Feb 20, 2013
            By Todd Starnes

            Parents across Massachusetts are upset over new rules that would not only allow transgender students to use their restrooms of their choice – but would also punish students who refuse to affirm or support their transgender classmates.

            Last week the Massachusetts Department of Education issued directives for handling transgender students – including allowing them to use the bathrooms of their choice or to play on sports teams that correspond to the gender with which they identify.

            The 11-page directive also urged schools to eliminate gender-based clothing and gender-based activities – like having boys and girls line up separately to leave the classroom.

            Schools will now be required to accept a student’s gender identity on face value.

            “A student who says she is a girl and wishes to be regarded that way throughout the school day and throughout every, or almost every, other area of her life, should be respected and treated like a girl,” the guidelines stipulate.

            According to the Dept. of Education, transgender students are those whose assigned birth sex does not match their “internalized sense of their gender.”

            They said gender nonconforming students “range in the ways in which they identify as male, female, some combination of both, or neither.”

            “The responsibility for determining a student’s gender identity rests with the student,” the guidelines dictate. “One’s gender identity is an innate, largely inflexible characteristic of each individual’s personality that is generally established by age four…As a result, the person best situated to determine a student’s gender identity is that student himself or herself.”

            The new rules would also prevent teachers and administrators from telling parents with which gender their child identifies.

            “School personnel should speak with the student first before discussing a student’s gender nonconformity or transgender status with the student’s parent or guardian,” the directive states.

            The guidelines were issued at the request of the state board of education to help schools follow the 2011 anti-discrimination law protecting transgender students.

            “These students, because of widespread misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about their lives, are at a higher risk for peer ostracism, victimization, and bullying, the document read.

            The Massachusetts Family Institute denounced the new rules calling them a violation of privacy.

            “Fundamentally, boys need to be using the boys’ room and girls need to be using the girls’ rooms, and we base that on their anatomical sex, not some sort of internalized gender identity,” said Andrew Beckwith, the institute’s general counsel.

            Beckwith told Fox News the new policy has a “very broad standard that is ripe for abuse.”

            “The policy allows students to have one gender identity at home and another at school,” he said. “And it refuses to let teachers and administrators tell parents what gender their child is at school.”

            Another part of the directive that troubles parents deals with students who might feel comfortable having someone of the opposite sex in their locker room or bathroom.

            The state takes those students to task – noting their discomfort “is not a reason to deny access to the transgender student.”

            And any student who refuses to refer to a transgendered student by the name or sex they identify with could face punishment.

            For example – a fifth grade girl might feel uncomfortable using the restroom if there is an eighth grade transgendered boy in the next stall.

            Under the state guidelines, the girl would have no recourse, Beckwith said.

            “And if the girl continued to complain she could be subjected to discipline for not affirming that student’s gender identity choice,” he told Fox News.

            “It should not be tolerated and can be grounds for student discipline,” the directive states.

            Gunner Scott, of the Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition, praised the directive – and said punishing students who refuse to acknowledge a student’s gender identity is appropriate because it amounts to bullying.

            “The reality is that it’s about creating an inclusive environment for all students to learn,” Scott said.

            But many parents disagreed and said the directive actually gives transgendered students more rights and privileges than other students.

            “It doesn’t treat all students the same,” said Bill Gillmeister, of Brookfield, Mass. “It has a greater preference to gender-identifying children. That concerns me a great deal.”

            Gillmeister told Fox News he has a son and daughter in high school. He also serves as a school committeeman.

            He wondered about safety and fairness – especially when it comes to athletics. Under the new rules transgendered students will be allowed to play on either boys or girls teams.

            “What about the girl who loses a spot on that basketball team because a boy is able to play as a girl,” Gillmeister wondered.

            He worried about boys going into the girls locker rooms and vice versa.

            “As a father of a daughter who might be playing sports, that concerns me greatly,” he said. “My daughter would likely not play a sport that she would otherwise play if she knew there was a potential for a boy to walk into the girl’s locker room.”

            Gillmeister predicted no matter what happens – there will be lawsuits.

            “It will either be the girl who didn’t get a seat on the basketball team because some boy got it or some boy who wanted to use the girls’ room but was denied access,” he said.

            Beckwith and others say the education department is using a loophole in the anti-discrimination law to create a “stealth bathroom bill.”

            “It’s affecting students as young as kindergarten,” he said.

            The directive also calls on schools to implement gender neutral clothing rules.

            “For example, some schools require students to wear gender-based garb for graduation or have gender-based dress codes for prom, special events and daily attire,” the directive states. “Schools should eliminate gendered policies and practices such as these.”

            They pointed out on school that changed its dress code for the National Honor Society. The new policy does not require girls to wear dresses.

            They also instructed schools to stop lining up students based on gender. Instead, they recommended lining up students using their birthdays or alphabetically.

            Beckwith said it seems like Massachusetts is trying to create gender-neutral schools.

            “They’re encouraging schools to eliminate all gender based distinctions,” he said.

            With reporting from Associated Press

             
          • Pete posted at 4:52 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 12:13 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013

            Okay.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:43 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: What could I have been thinking?

            HTC: Very few who read your posts would ever venture as far as accusing you of thinking.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:35 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            This would seem to be a good time to resurrect this one;

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SFaLokC9hqk

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:42 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            DNA Proof of Bigfoot's Existence?

            http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-IN-Bigfoot-Genomes-Sequenced-Evidence-of-Species-in-North-America-021913.aspx?et_cid=3101172&et_rid=467291283&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.scientificcomputing.com%2fnews-IN-Bigfoot-Genomes-Sequenced-Evidence-of-Species-in-North-America-021913.aspx

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:22 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Bronco posted at 12:28 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Thank you for exposing and keeping us abreast of the women's nipple terrorism crisis in North Carolina. Six months for this Class H felony offense to a penal institution is typical legal oxymoron for the GOP. To imagine nipples on women's breasts that were removed because of cancer would most likely be a thought crime.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:09 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Do Drone Pilots Deserve Higher Medal Than Combat Vets?

            http://www.ecnmag.com/articles/2013/02/do-drone-pilots-deserve-higher-medal-combat-vets?et_cid=3103444&et_rid=45558308&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ecnmag.com%2farticles%2f2013%2f02%2fdo-drone-pilots-deserve-higher-medal-combat-vets

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:50 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            An interesting Facebook site written by young veterans......check it out!

            http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/02/wargame-determines-infantry-battalions-commanded-by-female-officers-75-more-likely-to-stop-for-directions-arrive-fashionably-late/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:18 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 11:31 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            You are absolutely correct Mr. H., the political and legal implications of corporate personhood identity theft by the use of your personal avatar would idiotic. What could I have been thinking? I would never want to lead any of your agnostic and fundamentally atheist sheep from the flock. Pete, the manager from the Manifest Destiny Quality Control division of Human Resources at your assault weapons factory advised me of my transgression. I now return you to your malingering mesmerism of malignment and the libertarian champion of the self-righteousness, Mr H.

             
          • Pete posted at 12:33 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            HighTechCowboy posted at 11:37 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013

            All wealth is the STATE's don't you know? That's why the STATE doesn't raise taxes, they just reduce the allowance of naughty little boys and girls who dare rise above the mean.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 12:13 pm on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Pete posted at 11:27 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.
            Posts: 2232
            Rob123 posted at 4:36 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013
            Fine. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that your comment, "...on their way to a company Prayer Breakfast" wasn't an allusion to Rebel's comments about "christian conservatives" even though it stretches the bounds of credibility.
            -------------------------------

            It wasn't, you hyper-sensitive PC dodo. Change it to anything that falls into the IRS Write Off bin. I don't care.

             
          • Pete posted at 11:56 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            IABD....or should I say IBID? Avatars don't make you smarter. Just ask Bronco.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:37 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Bronco: Does anyone else find it hypocritical to complain that paying for birth control "goes against your religious beliefs" while expecting atheist taxpayers to pay for your churches?

            HTC: I certainly don't because churches' tax-exempt status is due to First Amendment protections. The courts long ago determined that the "free exercise of religion" had to be free from taxation; otherwise, the government could tax out of existence any religion or religions it didn't like.

            On the other hand, there is nothing in the Constitution which extends any right to free birth control, paid for by someone else; in particular, by someone forced to do say against their conscience.

            So, there's no moral equivalency here unless this is simply too 'nuanced' for you.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:31 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            It's a beautiful day posted at 10:00 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            So now you're out to prove that you can be as childish as you are ignorant?

            Or maybe you're just trying to garner some respect for your idiotic posts by using my avatar?

             
          • Pete posted at 11:27 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 4:36 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013

            Fine. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that your comment, "...on their way to a company Prayer Breakfast" wasn't an allusion to Rebel's comments about "christian conservatives" even though it stretches the bounds of credibility.

            But I'll tell you what, when the PC cultural elite decide it's a mark of progressve suavity to scapegoat "conservative christians" they are entering dangerous territory. Failing STATES have a tendency to do this because it deflects criticism of their own failings.

            The only thing you need to do to understand this is trade the words "conservative christian" for "jew" and "prayer breakfast" for "minyan" and see how it reads.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:26 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Speaking of idiot Democratic politicians (I think that's probably redundant), it's hard to top Biden on the idiot scale. Now he's managed to inflame folks on both the left and the right with his statement about using a shotgun to defend yourself:

            "Buy a shotgun, buy a shotgun," the vice president encouraged those worried about defending themselves. He was speaking in an online video as part of a Facebook town hall hosted by Parents Magazine on the administration's strategy for reducing gun violence, which he has led at the direction of President Barack Obama.

            "I said, `Jill, if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony ... take that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house,"' Biden said. "You don't need an AR-15. It's harder to aim, it's harder to use and in fact, you don't need 30 rounds to protect yourself.""

            Of course, most folks who followed his advice would find themselves arrested for negligently discharging a firearm. Not cool. This is one aspect of his statement which upset law enforcement personnel and firearm safety experts on the right.

            His ignorant comment about an AR-15 being harder to aim and to use is also technically incorrect, unless you believe in the unsafe practice of never training with the weapon you intend to use for defensive purposes.

            Biden also went on to say that he doesn't think the Second Amendment's right to bear arms should be changed. He said limits on the use of assault weapons and high-capacity magazines is compatible with that right; of course, his remarks merely demonstrate the profound ignorance of the Constitution which is typical among Democrats.

            It reminds me of Jane Harman, recently retired Democratic Representative from CA, who many years ago made a bid for the Democratic Party's nomination as their candidate for governor. While making a campaign appearance on the steps of the capitol building in Sacramento, she was asked by a reporter if she supported the Second Amendment.

            She immediately responded that she supported ALL of the Constitution, whereupon the reporter asked her again if that support included the Second Amendment.

            Her response: "What's that?"

            So the reported read it to her verbatim, after which she exclaimed "Of course I can't support that!"

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:08 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Isn't it supposed to be the GOP that's been exclusively waging a "war against women?" At least, that's the lie long spread by the liberal media. Apparently they're too biased or hypocritical to notice the attack against women that recently occurred in the Colorado State legislature, courtesy of the Democrats.

            Specifically, the legislature passed a new set of gun-control laws which effectively prevents coeds with CCW permits from carrying on campus, thus making it harder for young women to defend themselves against rape. This led one Colorado University to advise women to tell their attacker that they have an STD or are menstruating and, if possible, to vomit or urinate on an attacker to avoid rape.

            The University of Colorado at Colorado Springs updated its advisory Monday evening, telling female students to “tell your attacker you have a disease or are menstruating” and that “vomiting or urinating also may convince the attacker to leave you alone.” The advisory was updated when the Colorado House of Representatives passed a bill Monday evening banning firearms on college campuses after a debate Friday among lawmakers when Democrat Joe Salazar suggested access to guns does not protect women from being raped.

            http://www.ibtimes.com/colorado-college-advises-vomiting-or-urinating-stop-rapists-after-lawmakers-pass-gun-control-bills

            Only an idiot liberal would suggest that peeing yourself is better than having a gun when you're about to be raped.

            Incredible!

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:57 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Does anyone else find it hypocritical to complain that paying for birth control "goes against your religious beliefs" while expecting atheist taxpayers to pay for your churches?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:55 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Bronco: Republican North Carolina State Representative Rayne Brown is co-sponsoring a bill to criminalize nipple exposure by women in public.

            HTC: This story has been grossly over-spun by the left. In reality, NC's "public indecency" statutes actually needed some clarification so as to precisely define what did or didn't meet statutory requirements as well as to prevent over-zealous prosecutions under the existing statutes.

            Virtually all states have statutes against "public indecency" but many are vague as to what actually constitutes a violation of their statutes. Virtually all specify offenses to be misdemeanors, punishable by up to 6 months, but certainly less than a year in jail. Most violators are issued the equivalent of a traffic ticket and, upon paying the fine, never see the inside of a jail.

            Are you arguing for public nudity? If so, you might want to check on how that worked out in San Francisco.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:00 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 10:12 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Wall of Separation
            General Nuttiness: FRC Hires Islam-Bashing Ex-Army Officer For Top Position
            Jul 17, 2012 by Rob Boston in Wall of Separation

            The Family Research Council's new executive vice president believes that President Obama is planning a 'Marxist insurgency' backed by a secret military force 'that would control the population in America.'

            Back in 2003, a general in the U.S. Army named William G. “Jerry” Boykin got himself in hot water because he had a habit of appearing, often in full uniform, before meetings of right-wing evangelicals and making intemperate comments about Islam.

            During one appearance in Oregon, Boykin opined that Islamic extremists hate the United States “because we’re a Christian nation, because our foundations and our roots are Judeo-Christian.”

            In another speech, Boykin regaled a crowd with a tale of how he captured an Islamic warlord in Somalia because “I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol.”

            Not surprisingly, some people thought this wasn’t helpful, coming as it did during the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, the White House had to issue a “global message” to Muslim nations letting them know that Boykin wasn’t speaking for the American government during these appearances.

            Americans United and other groups called on then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to fire Boykin, but in the end he received a slap on the wrist. An Army official described the penalty as “appropriate” but not “significant.”

            The good news is that Boykin left the Army. The bad news is that he remains as extreme as ever – and he has a new job with the Family Research Council (FRC).

            The FRC has announced that Boykin will join the Religious Right lobby as executive vice president. In a press release, the FRC said Boykin will “oversee day-to-day operations including policy, finance, development, communications, human resources, facilities, information technology, constituent communications and services.”

            I’m sure Boykin will fit right in with the FRC gang. Boykin has spent the last few years making the round of Religious Right groups, where he makes speeches and pours on the crazy.

            Like much of the FRC staff, Boykin seems to have a hard time understanding the First Amendment. In 2011, he wrote a column arguing that the First Amendment might not apply to Islam. Giving Islam too much freedom, he warned, might lead to “the establishment of Islamic law and government, or Sharia, alongside or in place of civil law and government in this country.”

            Boykin has since gone even farther, insisting that no mosques be built in America and asserting that Islam is not a religion.

            During a television appearance, Boykin asserted that President Barack Obama is planning a “Marxist insurgency” backed by a secret military force “that would control the population in America.” According to Boykin, the president’s health-care bill is part of this plot, and he likened it to activity by Nazi brownshirts.

            Boykin has also asserted that school textbooks are designed to make children lose pride in America. He called supporters of the Occupy Wall Street movement “useful idiots” fond of “using drugs and raping people.”

            Yes, I think Boykin is a perfect match for the FRC. The only question is whether he plans to bring his own aluminum-foil hat or get one from the FRC supply closet.

            The FRC, you might recall, has been designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center for its constant attacks on gay people. With Boykin’s help, the organization might soon be able to win that designation for its Islamophobia.

            The FRC and groups like it claim to be just plain folks – nice, normal Americans who just happen to be very religious and want to preserve their rights. The fact that they put an extremist like Boykin in a position of high authority shows how out there they really are.

            And remember, these are the people who think they know what’s best for you.

            P.S. In other news about the Religious Right, the Alliance Defense Fund, a far-right legal group founded by TV and radio preachers in the 1990s, has changed its name to the Alliance Defending Freedom. It’s a total rebranding with a new logo and everything!

            Personally, I would have gone with something more honest like the “Alliance of Right-Wing Fundamentalists Determined to Use the Government to Shove Our Repressive Religion Down Your Throat,” but the ADF brass didn’t ask me.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:28 am on Thu, Feb 21, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Published on Feb 19, 2013
            --Republican North Carolina State Representative Rayne Brown is co-sponsoring a bill to criminalize nipple exposure by women in public.

             
          • kohana posted at 11:19 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            February 20, 2013

            Fox News and the Saudi Prince

            Andrew G. Bostom

            Diana West has provided a uniquely incisive critique of Fox News' coverage of Islam -- its ongoing bowdlerization, or "Bin Talalization"-with a fascinating chronology that includes coverage of how the network reacted to billionaire Saudi "Prince" Bin Talal's rejected offer of $10 million in assistance to "The Twin Towers Fund" during the immediate aftermath of the 9/11/2001 jihad terrorist attacks. The ongoing 12-year evolution of its coverage has not been salutary.

            Here is a synopsis of her argumentation:

            If we examine Fox's body of work I believe the unspoken guidelines for coverage and discussion become quite clear. As noted above, Fox News covers terrorism, war, national security. It does not cover, let alone chronicle, the introduction of sharia -- Islamic law -- into the West. It does not cover the massive ongoing Islamic movement by which the Western world is being rapidly Islamized. It does not cover what the Muslim Brotherhood calls "civilization jihad." It does not cover the disappearance of Western culture in Europe. What we know as "political correctness" probably keeps such issues off the air in the MSM, but Fox makes a point of rising above such PC. I think the news vacuum we can see on Fox is at least partly a result of News Corp.'s Saudi influence. Such influence does not serve the American public interest.

            Please read the entire interview.

            http://www.radicalislam.org/analysis/interview-diana-west-saudi-influence-fox-news

            Page Printed from: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/02/fox_news_and_the_saudi_prince.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:11 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: Sooooo, no cameras up your Royal Azz, I guess? I will continue having it done, every 5 years. And a bunch of other tests.......it seems that catching stuff early is the best remedy. I won't try to sell you on the idea. You're a big boy, and can make up your own mind.

            HTC: I didn't say that I don't practice it; only that multiple studies have proven that it's not a big money saver in the grand scheme of healthcare. If you want to believe otherwise because it "feels right", that's your choice. As for me, I'll go with the science and the data which is overwhelming.

            I'm not saying that we shouldn't practice 'preventative' medicne; only that it's not accurate to say that it pays for itself when you force insurers to cover it.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:36 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Pete posted @ 4:02:
            Rob123 posted at 6:04 am on Wed, Feb 20, 2013
            "Evidentally "conservative christian" has taken the place of "jew" for the neo-socialists huh?"

            WT*? That's pretty weird, in relation to what I actually said.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:34 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HighTechCowboy posted at 3:02 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            "It just doesn't work as described by those who refuse to learn from history."

            Sooooo, no cameras up your Royal Azz, I guess? I will continue having it done, every 5 years. And a bunch of other tests.......it seems that catching stuff early is the best remedy. I won't try to sell you on the idea. You're a big boy, and can make up your own mind.

             
          • Pete posted at 4:02 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rebel Rouser posted at 6:09 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013

            Rob123 posted at 6:04 am on Wed, Feb 20, 2013

            Evidentally "conservative christian" has taken the place of "jew" for the neo-socialists huh? Pretty convenient....you get to be biased little pigs and in vogue with the cultural elite all at the same time. Were I in NY I might have to think about taping my windows...but since I'm in Montana I'll just polish my 2nd Amendment and smile while you two decorate the 1st with your spittle. Ain't freedom grand?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:02 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: Wellness checks are now 'free' to the individual (Good!....BUT, this will pay off down the road.

            HTC: That's just another liberal myth which has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked by numerous studies of EU healthcare systems as well as states like CA which have long required that insurers pay for "wellness checks" or so-called "preventative" medicine.

            It just doesn't work as described by those who refuse to learn from history.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:59 pm on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rebel Rouser: Gee, it makes one wonder, would the insurance industry try to SCREW everyone on the planet just for money?

            HTC: Are you really that economically and financially illiterate that you can't understand how ObamaCare (ACA) is driving up healthcare costs and, along with it, health insurance costs BIG time?

            Before I get into some of the more significant reasons why ObamaCare is driving up costs rather than 'corporate greed', let's just logically analyze your suggestion that insurance companies are simply using ObamaCare as an excuse to drive health insurance costs through the roof.

            By unjustifiably raising rates, more people are going to elect to pay the fine under ObamaCare, which is much cheaper, and wait to buy the industry's overly expensive insurance until accident or illness leaves them actually need it, knowing that the ACA requires insurers to issue it in spite of their now pre-existing condition(s) and cover them from day one of the policy period.

            This is an excellent way to put yourself out of business because your only policyholders will be the sick or seriously injured and will be costing you far more than you're taking in with premiums.

            And if putting yourself out of business is your goal, why not preserve capital and just pull out of the health insurance markets (as a number of companies have chosen to do)?

            No, the real reasons why many people have already seen as much as 100% or greater increases in their policy rates for next year is due to ObamaCare itself, with these being some of the more significant reasons why:

            (1) The ACA limits insurers to charging the elderly and sick no more than 3 times what they charge the youngest and healthiest. Since those 50 and older account for 85% of all healthcare costs, those under 50 are going to get reamed a new one on their healthinsurance rates. Most will elect to pay the fine instead, which can be as low as $95/yr., rather than pay several thousands of dollars per year on health insurance. Once stricken by accident or illness, THEN and only then will they buy insurance. This will force insurers to dramatically raise rates even more to try to stem their losses which will grow exponentially as they find themselves only selling to the sick and disabled.

            (2) The ACA imposes many different taxes on healthcare providers and medical equipment and pharmaceutical companies, all of whom will pass those along to you in the form of higher fees. Only an idiot progressive could state with a straight face that the ACA will REDUCE healthcare costs as they actually add taxes onto those providing those services.

            (3) More people will be covered by Medicare and Medicaid which pay so little to healthcare providers that providers have to cost-shift a major portion of those peoples' healthcare costs to the rest of us. With millions more covered under those programs, the cost-shifting will explode.

            (4) The ACA requires that more things be covered, often without co-pays, including mental health treatment and substance abuse treatment. It also removes any lifetime limits on these and other healthcare costs. This alone will dramatically swell what we pay for healthcare in this country and, along with it, the cost of health insurance.

            (5) While millions of people will end up joining the ranks of the insured and begin demanding all kinds of healthcare, the ACA adds 16-20 thousand new IRS agents to ensure compliance but not one new doctor or clinic. You understand supply and demand, don't you? The ACA is the kind of thing that only an idiot progressive could seriously consider enacting.

            The ACA is having many other very negative side effects including costing people their jobs or forcing employers to reduce their hours in order to escape the impossible burden of the ACA which would otherwise drive them out of business. It has also limited new hiring as employers simply can't entertain adding employees when they're still trying to figure out how they'll comply with their current headcount.

            Then there's the cutbacks in R&D funding by medical device and pharmaceutical companies as they struggle with the ACA's new taxes on them. Many of these same companies are moving offshore to avoid the tax altogether, taking thousands of high-paying jobs with them.

            Many medical schools are already reporting declining enrollments as more potential doctors say "screw it" and decide to pursue alternative careers that will pay them better and not subject their every move to the scrutiny and control of braindead bureaucrats in D.C. Experts predict a shortage of as many as 400,000 physicians by the end of this decade.

            If one wanted to destroy one-sixth of our economy (healthcare), you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a more perfect weapon than ObamaCare.

            I'm glad that Obama has grown fond of it hearing it as "ObamaCare", rather than the "Affordable Care Act" because, when it goes down like the Titanic, his legacy will be attached to it. Anything which sabotages the legacy of an idiot Marxist is all right in my book.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 10:19 am on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            busy place, very busy. 1. sequester - an Obama plan, which I'm sure he now regrets, but won't admit it's his. 2. gun control - a few liberal states now going off the charts with idiot gun laws that effect only law-abiding (soon to be non-law abiding) citizens. Re; California, New York, Colorado and Washington state. I can hear the folks in Spokane complaining already. 3. Obama/Demo-dummy care - costs are going up, a lot, and availability of care going down. Well, no surprise there. 4. The very best - "Shot gun Salesman of the Year" - Joe D'Buffoon. Doing for shot gun sales what Chairman Obama has done for other weapons sales. Oh, imagine the thousands of folks (and thousands of weapons) in the above mentioned states suddenly 'criminalized". That just cracks me up. Can ya see all them folks lining up to turn-in their now illegal weapons? (the "transformation" continues).

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:27 am on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Is it normal for a neoconservative newspaper to avoid and go off topic on this type of commentary?

            http://www.danielnpaul.com/MariasRiverMassacre.html

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:44 am on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/02/20/1613851/how-an-over-the-top-joke-became-a-republican-talking-point-against-chuck-hagel/

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:04 am on Wed, Feb 20, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Rebel Rouser: " I guess we will have to wait and see exactly why the increase is required."

            A number of reasons, actually: 1) Everybody gets coverage, no matter pre-existing conditions (Good!)...2.)Wellness checks are now 'free' to the individual (Good!....BUT, this will pay off down the road. At the moment, a double whammy to the bottom line as old farts with preventable whatevers go in for surgery and extended stays.) 3.) All the excess cash Insurance that companies hold until they must pay it out (92% for claims-8% for over-head...+/-) sits in a number of vehicles that make money.......however, those invested in Bonds are showing a negative return this past year. Money invested in Raw Land waiting for a developer to come in and purchase and sub-divide.......pretty ugly the past 5+ years, except for a few hot spots. 4.) CEO's and CFO's, etc.,of Big Insurance, who use to fly the Corporate Jet to a couple choice golfing-skiing locales on their way to a company Prayer Breakfast, writing the whole thing off as a business trip, had the IRS and some Stockholders cry 'FOUL!', making their life miserable. They tend to pass on this attitude.
            The list goes on and on.......as you know.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 6:09 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1565

            Gee, it makes one wonder, would the insurance industry try to SCREW everyone on the planet just for money? Nah, there are way too many conservative Christians in the medical insurance industry for that to happen. I guess we will have to wait and see exactly why the increase is required. In the meantime, the most recent questionnaire I received from MY insurance company asked: Do you spend any time on internet blogs with political topics? How many minutes per day? Week? Month?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:29 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rate shock: How ObamaCare is causing a surge in insurance premiums
            By Dr. Sreedhar Potarazu
            February 19, 2013

            Over the past couple of weeks, many insurance companies have provided guidance in their investor calls that premiums for insurance plans being sold in the individual market could go up as much as 50 percent on average.

            One has to wonder how this is even possible when ObamaCare was passed under the promise of affordability and access. While some may argue that “rate shock” has become a mechanism for insurance companies to scare the market, the reality is that economics really leave the insurance market with no other choice.

            ObamaCare requires insurers to offer benefit plans on the new exchanges that are relatively generous and would include coverage for maternity, prescription drugs and treatment of mental illness. These are clearly important areas to cover.

            In order to get this level of coverage, however, many people in their 20s, who are used to buying basic coverage, will now be required to pay more for these required benefits in the exchanges. In fact, it is expected that more than 75-85 percent of individuals in this age group could end up spending more for insurance in these exchanges than they do currently.

            Some argue that the annual price tag of $1,600 to $2,000 for an insurance plan is still an attractive deal, but if the penalty for not having coverage can be as low as $95 per year, the question remains whether many people will decide to opt out until they absolutely need insurance.

            A key reason why insurance premiums are going up is because insurance companies will no longer be able to turn away or charge people more with pre-existing conditions. Even more significant is that these companies would only be able to charge its oldest customers three times as much as their youngest.

            If younger individuals decide to wait until they get sick enough to require health insurance, this will obviously skew the insurance market where the sickest individuals will be the ones who are in the system, thus raising rates for everyone else. Many insurance companies are pushing the government to regulations that would charge higher rates for individuals who don’t sign up for insurance within a certain timeframe.

            What many people also fail to recognize is the income they earn this year will impact the amount of subsidy and/or penalty that will be calculated for 2014. A recent survey indicated more than 70 to 80 percent of Americans had no idea how this year’s income reporting will impact the calculation of their benefits for next year, and as much as 40 percent of people between the ages of 18 to 34 were unaware that there was even a penalty for not having coverage.

            Supporters of the law have downplayed the notion of rate increases with the idea that the new competitive markets will force insurers to provide competitive rates. History will tell us, however, that in the days of managed care it is very difficult to ultimately contain costs in the long-term, especially when you factor in community rating and guaranteed issue.

            The other complicating factor in the equation is that, as of Friday, February 15, 2013, only about half of the states have agreed to proceed with setting up the insurance exchanges, while the other half is deferring to the federal government. What remains to be seen is how effective this dichotomy of market places will be in driving competitive advantage, and how insurance premiums will vary between these two systems.

            The Congressional Budget Office indicated in its estimates that insurance premiums for those buying coverage in the marketplaces would probably be 10 to 13 percent in 2016 because the health plans would be more comprehensive. The likely outcome from the current effects of ObamaCare is that while rates come down for older people, they may increase for consumers in their 20s, which could leave an older, sicker population now, and an even sicker population down the road.

            The idea that federal subsidies will help shelter the cost of those individuals who need to find affordable coverage is worrisome in light of recent findings. Several high-risk pools were established to provide assistance for those individuals with pre-existing conditions who needed help in finding coverage. As recent as last week, it was reported these high-risk pools were running out of money and are underfunded.

            The harsh reality is with an aging population that has a growing need for care of their chronic conditions, the cost for providing adequate coverage will not be cheap, and the biggest fear among employers, states, insurance companies, providers and the consumer is how we will afford the price tag to provide for what has been proposed.

            As premiums continue to rise out of control, the jury is still out as to whether the promises of ObamaCare will actually be able to reel these trends in, or whether it is a balloon that continues to drift away.

            Dr. Sreedhar Potarazu is an acclaimed ophthalmologist and entrepreneur who has been recognized as an international visionary in the business of medicine and health information technology. He is the founder of VitalSpring Technologies Inc., a privately held enterprise software company focused on providing employers with applications to empower them to become more sophisticated purchasers of health care. Dr Potarazu recently founded GoodChime! a social platform for driving consumer engagement in health for which he is the chairman.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:26 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Pete: I find it hard to believe that there isn't a fair amount of cynicism among law enforcement personnel - mainly because it would seem perfectly natural given the state of the STATE. Of course I understand that that is a different thing altogether than acting on the cynicism, which is what you may be saying.

            HTC: You're absolutely correct. There is a significant amount of cynicism among law enforcement personnel, but the vast majority never give into it. Many just leave the force when their cynicism starts to get the best of them.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:23 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            bill39: You and others(I'm sure) noticed, the picture of Oldbomber firing a shotgun looked fake, especially the whatever the heck it is supposed to be at the end of the barrel.

            HTC: The shotgun in the photo is a $2500 Browning Citori. VERY nice shotgun.

            What you see at the end of the top barrel is an Invector choke. The plume of smoke seemingly going off to the right side is from the ported top barrel; however, it seems to be ported on only one side, while the Citori is actually vented on BOTH sides. That's the one technical aspect to the gun itself which I find puzzling.

            I have no reason to doubt that the picture actually shows Obama holding a Citori shotgun, but whether he's actually firing it in the picture is debatable.

            Regardless, he's obviously not skeet shooting and the who thing is merely a photo op,

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 5:20 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1565

            bill39 posted at 12:50 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Hey billlessball39, I have a question for you, would you rather go hunting with President Obama or former Vice President Dickhead Chaney?


            Sorry for my dyslexia.

             
          • Pete posted at 1:54 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            HighTechCowboy posted at 1:28 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013

            Don't worry the press is finally riled up (They weren't allowed on Barry's golf outing with Tiger.) and they're ready to ask the hard questions and get the TRUTH.

            1st question: Did you beat Tiger?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:28 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            The president, his party and the liberal media are once again raising a ruckus over the supposed "sequestration cuts", which we now know aren't really cuts but actually an increase in spending. They insist that the 'cuts' are part of a GOP war against America and the middle class.

            Their lies know no bounds; but, what makes their dishonesty particularly disgusting is the fact that they have so quickly forgotten that sequestration was Obama's idea!

            The Democratic Party and its supporters know no shame whatsoever and will stoop to anything to mislead the American public. Those who continue to support them are either profoundly stupid or devoid of integrity as well.

             
          • Pete posted at 1:19 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:51 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Now that's funny!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:17 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            The $995 billion Sequester Cut Is Actually a $110 Billion Spending Increase
            Paul Roderick Gregory
            February 19, 2013 | Forbes

            The Congressional Budget Office gives its baseline budget projections for fiscal years 2013 to 2023 in its February 5, 2013 Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2013 to 2023. Table 1-5 shows how the CBO incorporates the $55 billion per year in sequestered defense cuts and the $37 million per year in sequestered non-defense cuts into its projections of discretionary spending:

            http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43907

            The sequester “cuts” are subtracted after increasing appropriations subject to the sequester at the rate of inflation and adding back in more than a trillion dollars (over ten years) of spending exempted from the sequester.

            The sequester has been advertised as “cutting” discretionary spending over a ten year period by $995 billion. After inflation adjustments and exempting more than a trillion dollars of defense and non defense discretionary spending from the sequester, the CBO projects (in its Table 1.1) discretionary spending to increase by $110 billion over the decade. There is no actual $995 billion cut after the CBO applies its magic adjustments. Rather there is a $110 billion increase.

            Sequester alarmists will respond that it is impossible to run the federal government without annual inflation adjustments and without exempting certain government spending. We American voters might respond that most of us do not receive automatic inflation adjustments to our earnings and we are expected to tighten our belts when times are tough and our personal debt has gotten out of control.

            Whatever the case, it is hard to characterize a $110 billion increase as a draconian cut that will bring America and its federal government to its knees.

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2013/02/19/the-995-billion-sequester-cut-is-actually-a-110-billion-spending-increase/

             
          • Pete posted at 1:17 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:26 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013

            I find it hard to believe that there isn't a fair amount of cynicism among law enforcement personnel - mainly because it would seem perfectly natural given the state of the STATE. Of course I understand that that is a different thing altogether than acting on the cynicism, which is what you may be saying. As to Dorner...don't get me wrong, it was his decision to die. He was NOT a victim.

            My caveat is aimed not at law enforcement or others who serve us; (border patrol, soldiers in the field, teachers in the classroom, etc.) but rather at a system/mindset/ideology that constantly puts its best and brightest in nearly untenable situations while feeding the very problems which it created. A cynic would view this as a neat little scenario that has one ending...why else would the DHS need to purchase 1.625 BILLION (with a B) rounds of ammunition in the last 10 months. (Enough to shoot each American 5 times.) Something is going to give...and when it does it's gonna be ugly.

             
          • bill39 posted at 12:50 pm on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            bill39 Posts: 1052

            HTC: AsObama says he's pro-Second Amendment because he fired a shotgun once at Camp David.

            You and others(I'm sure) noticed, the picture of Oldbomber firing a shotgun looked fake, especially the whatever the heck it is supposed to be at the end of the barrel. There must be a good reason he is pointing so low. Probably his fear of guns. Or maybe he just wanted to hurry up and get it over with before the gun went nuts and shot somebody. Or, it just fired on its own, before he lined up on his target.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:43 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            In the 'fair' world of the progressive, every gun purchase should be preceded by a thorough background check; but, to become president? Not so much.....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:12 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Ret. Lt. General and Green Beret Jerry Boykin on Marxism in America:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z7w3ZEbC09k#t=0s

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:59 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Obama says he's pro-Second Amendment because he fired a shotgun once at Camp David. That's like claiming to be a vegetarian because you like lettuce on your double cheeseburger.

            Nancy Pelosi on her support for gun rights: "We avow the First Amendment. We stand with that and say that people have a right to have a gun to protect themselves in their homes and their jobs, where ever, and...for recreation for hunting and the rest. So we're not questioning their right to do that." (An all too frequent display of Democrats' knowledge of the Constitution.)

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:51 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            It's been reported that the real reason the liberal MSM and Democrats have made such a big deal of Marco Rubio taking a drink of water during his SOTU rebuttal is due to the fact that he was drinking water and not the KoolAid.

             
          • laker1 posted at 9:40 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            laker1 Posts: 112

            While I can understand Our Dear Editor’s desire to compare Eddie Anderson and Ronald Smith, one might have a reasonable doubt that Anderson, as Our Dear Editor claims, “. . . seemed eager to pay the price for his criminal recklessness.”

            Consider the following article from the Oakland Tribune, December 21, 1933, page 13:

            “CURRAN KILLER, INDICTED, ON TRIAL AT ONCE

            Anderson, Arraigned Before Judge Ward Today, Will Face Jury Tomorrow

            San Francisco. December 21. – A new record for speed in bringing a defendant to trial in criminal court was achieved today when Eddie Anderson, 25, confessed killer of Hewlitt Tarr, Curran Theater cashier, appeared before Judge Louis H. Ward.

            Anderson, indicted only yesterday for Tarr’s murder by the Grand Jury, waived the statutory time permitted him, pleaded not guilty and was ordered to trial tomorrow morning before a jury.

            Public Defender Gerald Kenny, who represented Anderson, said he would put the confessed bandit and slayer of Tarr, on the stand “to tell his own story.” in the hope that the jury would bring in a verdict of life imprisonment.

            FIGHT DEATH PENALTY

            “We will concentrate only on trying to avoid infliction of the death penalty,” Kenny said. “Anderson admits killing Tarry while trying to rob the theater last month. But there seems no disputing the fact that the gun in his hand went off as he pointed it through the wicket at Tarr and the hammer caught on the grill.”

            Judge Ward expressed surprise over the defendant’s willingness to undergo a trial without delay, but added that he was glad of the opportunity to grant it. A jury will be impaneled tomorrow morning at 10 oclock. The trial is not expected to require more than a few days.

            Emil Anderson, father of the killer, wept during the court scene.

            “Eddie’s in the wrong,” he said. “There’s nothing for him to do except plead guilty and ask for the mercy of the court. I don’t understand him. I can’t see how he could have done these things.”

            ACCUSED OF MURDER

            One of the indictments against Anderson accuses him of the murder of Tarr and the robbery of the Koffee Kup café immediately afterward. The other charges him with robbery of the Geary-Jones branch of the American Trust Company.

            Anderson was captured after robbery of the bank, when he engaged in a gun battle with the police.”

            If Anderson were eager to pay the price, all he had to do was to plead guilty as Smith did. As the above shows, he waived any delay in entering a plea, pled not guilty and sought a trial by jury in the hope that the jury would not sentence him to die.

            Of course, the elephant in the room in Anderson’s case is the last line in the article above. When Anderson was arrested, he shot a police officer, seriously not fatally. That raises two problems. One is that if you are looking for a little love from the judge or the jury, don’t shoot a cop. The other is that there was no grill to catch the hammer this time. As Big Halsey said, once is cool, twice is "strange".

             
          • who new posted at 9:21 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            IABD posted at 11:28 pm

            Fakes are good; we wouldn’t want them to defile the real thing.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:56 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: "And it wasn't an Ivy League education, either. Couldn't afford that unless I'd been born black. Then I would have gotten a free ride thanks to liberals who've been in the reverse-discrimination, income-redistribution business for a VERY long time."

            You really should have taken that class!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:51 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Pete: Chicago Police Chief: Second Amendment Is A Danger To Public Safety

            HTC: He's also blaming "government-sponsored racism" and Sarah Palin, proving once again that the end game for liberalism is virtually indistinguishable from insanity.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:26 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Pete: Has anyone else had the thought that maybe the broken nature of the justice system has an effect on policing as well?

            HTC: As an ex-cop, I'm certain that it rarely affects policing, other than a shift away from bothering with lesser "revolving door" nonviolent crimes With poiice and correctional budgets heavily constrained, why bother arresting people who will be right back out onto the streets because of liberal notions of 'overcrowding' in our jails and prisons.

            This is one reason why property crime rates are so high.

            There is, as you noted, one case where officers' integrity and devotion to the law is particularly challenged as that's when it comes to apprehending someone who has killed one or more of their own.

            As for the Dorner case, the smoke grenades used do have tendency to cause fires, particulary when you use 11 of them, as has been reported. Dorner knew this and knew that he'd have plenty of time to exit the structure if he chose to do so. He also knew that their only options were to storm the home or force him out. Given his training, the former wasn't a viable option and he know that they would rule that out.

            That fact, combined with the fact that he shot himself, literally made HIM his own judge, jury and executioner, NOT the law enforcement officers on the scene that day.

            Were the officers who had him surrounded pleased with the result? Probably, but so am I as is likely true for a majority of Americans who followed the story.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:12 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: Do you ever kind of wish, just a little, that in your high powered, Ivy League education years, you had taken an 'Easy A' class as an elective?

            HTC: No, I didn't; probably because I worked my azz off to pay for my education myself. It's amazing how much more you care about something when it's your hard-earned money paying for it.

            And it wasn't an Ivy League education, either. Couldn't afford that unless I'd been born black. Then I would have gotten a free ride thanks to liberals who've been in the reverse-discrimination, income-redistribution business for a VERY long time.

            But I never felt any kind of regret that my education wasn't at Ivy League schools; after all, a whole lot of those who did go to Ivy League schools ended up working for me. It's not how you start the race but how you finish it that matters.

            Rob123: I'm still curious as to why Montana and Idaho shut down all the Red Light Districts in the early 70's?

            HTC: Virtually everyone did back then. It wasn't just Montana and Idaho.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:01 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: What would you consider to be 'victimless' crimes?

            [sad]....That's a tough one boss! Do you ever kind of wish, just a little, that in your high powered, Ivy League education years, you had taken an 'Easy A' class as an elective? Maybe something along the lines of 'Swedish Massage 101" or "Yoga 101" or maybe "How to relax and Experience Everything in Real Time-the Life and Times of Siddhartha with an analysis of 'The Glass Bead Game' "?

            I'm still curious as to why Montana and Idaho shut down all the Red Light Districts in the early 70's? The 'Law of Unintended Consequences' certainly raised it's ugly head? And the list goes on.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:36 am on Tue, Feb 19, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Pete posted at 1:05 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            [thumbup]

             
          • posted at 11:31 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Posts:

            Query for wdnm:

            Which of these two sentences is correct? "Which killer received justice?" Or "Who killer received justice?"

            Sometimes pedantry is its own punishment.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:28 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            who new posted at 11:03 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Look at the image again. This is FoxNews Photoshop editing propaganda at it's worst. Doesn't the stars and stripes look a little odd after a second glance? The stars are proportionally wrong. The official Old Glory is made from hemp and this culture is used to the non-toxic fumes.

             
          • who new posted at 11:03 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            Why spend millions battling America’s enemies when we could just send them Old Glory?

            http://tinyurl.com/99pfqd4

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:00 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 10:00 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013

            HTC: What would you consider to be 'victimless' crimes?

            IABD- It's kind of up past your bedtime Mr. H... Having trouble sleeping? You could always
            convert your assault rifle to the "Eddie Eagle" NRA approved medical marijuana delivery system and take a hit and get some shut eye. Unfortunately the accidental death policy with NRA insurance doesn't include suicide or acts of war. It's the thought that counts.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:00 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rebel Rouser: Also, victimless crime should be handled differently than crime that involves a victim, or victims.

            HTC: What would you consider to be 'victimless' crimes?

             
          • wdnm posted at 8:39 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            wdnm Posts: 22

            People are who things are which: Two Killers: WHO received justice? Come on DIL, basic grammar rules!

             
          • Pete posted at 7:45 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Levin: US preparing for societal collapse by buying up billions of rounds of ammo [AUDIO]

            http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/16/levin-u-s-govt-preparing-for-civil-societys-collapse-by-buying-up-billions-of-rounds-of-ammo/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:55 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HTC: Hey, as a libertarian, I'm all for decriminalizing ALL drug use, provided that society isn't forced to pay for their usually repeated and useless 'rehab' nor forced to save them in the ER at our expense.

            IABD- Does the libertarian NRA 'eddie eagle' program now provide a medical health plan for the drug crazed neoconservative members and their families? Does it still pay out a million dollar life insurance policy if you shoot one of your unwanted kids by accident? I have heard a success story of a local policeman who retired comfortably on this insurance, but has no family left as a result.

             
          • Pete posted at 1:09 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            "HTC: Hey, as a libertarian, I'm all for decriminalizing ALL drug use, provided that society isn't forced to pay for their usually repeated and useless 'rehab' nor forced to save them in the ER at our expense."

            Exactly. "Forced" being the operative word.

             
          • Pete posted at 1:05 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Has anyone else had the thought that maybe the broken nature of the justice system has an effect on policing as well? Take this killer Dorner. Who believes that the cabin fire was "accidental"? But...on the other hand, who can blame the cops who saw their own gunned down in cold blood and know that if they capture the creep he will play the system for years. It may not be right, but it sure is understandable. I'm sure the kind of law officers we want serving us (Who I believe are the vast majority) would like to see the system fixed as well.

             
          • Pete posted at 12:50 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rebel Rouser posted at 12:09 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013

            Although I know that coercion and railroading happens, I also have to believe a lot of wrongful prosecution can be attributed to the plea bargain system as well as the plain fact that many times it is simply good business for one "bad guy" to send another "bad guy" up the river and in the process eliminate the competition and/or settle petty grievances. However, given the way things are going with the government and the technological advances(photo shopping for example), it doesn't take a genius to see that it's getting easier and easier to put someone in the wrong place at the wrong time...DNA notwithstanding.

            I agree with you on the victimless crime.

             
          • Pete posted at 12:32 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco posted at 12:02 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013

            Agreed

             
          • Pete posted at 12:31 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Chicago Police Chief: Second Amendment Is A Danger To Public Safety

            http://www.redstate.com/dloesch/2013/02/17/chicago-police-chief-second-amendment-is-a-danger-to-public-safety/

            2 questioned in shooting of teen killed hours after sister heard Obama’s speech

            http://www.suntimes.com/18282748-761/chicago-teen-killed-hours-after-her-sister-attended-obamas-speech-on-violence.html

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 12:09 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1565

            Pete posted at 9:11 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            It's been a long time Mr. Pete, yet is was bound to happen sooner or later, I am in agreement with you on this one. The only thing I would like to add is the issue of coercion and railroading which puts the non-guilty into the system. Also, victimless crime should be handled differently than crime that involves a victim, or victims.

             
          • Pete posted at 12:08 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            John Baer: Cell earnings: Prison inmates collect unemployment

            http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/john_baer/20130218_John_Baer__Cell_earnings__Prison_inmates_collect_unemployment.html

             
          • Pete posted at 12:07 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            DHS Advances Plan For “Public Safety” Drones

            http://www.infowars.com/dhs-advances-plan-for-public-safety-drones/

            Judge, jury, executioner....

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:02 pm on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Pete posted at 9:11 am on Mon
            ----------------------
            Agreed. Editorial in today's Honolulu newspaper---------Congress approved mandatory minimum sentences as part of the "war on drugs" in the 1970s. Hawaii passed its mandatory minimum for drug offenders in 1986 and so did most other states. By the 1990s, then-U.S. Chief Justice William Rehnquist acknowledged that those measures were "perhaps a good example of the law of unintended consequences."

            Mandatory minimum sentencing laws eliminate judicial discretion, testified Kat Brady of the Community Alliance on Prisons at the Senate Judiciary and Labor Committee, which voted to advance the bill last week. "These laws are problematic because they tie the courts' hands and mandate longer prison sentences, regardless of whether the court believes the punishment is appropriate, based on the circumstances and facts of the case."

            In Hawaii, drug offenders convicted of possessing a certain amount of drugs, a Class B felony, are sentenced to the minimum prison term of five years for possessing a certain amount of "dangerous" drugs, while distributing it to a minor is a Class A, which would automatically end with 10 years imprisonment.

            But is that offense such a danger to society? Actually, in a 2006 case study in Hawaii, 97.6 percent of the drug offenses were not violent or personal crimes. The average drug offender spends an average of 39 months in prison, costing taxpayers an average of $85,000 per drug offender, according to a 2009 study by Thomas E. Lengyel of the American Human Association in Denver and University of Hawaii-Hilo sociology associate professor Marilyn Brown.

            Lengyel and Brown figure that the net cost to the state for the 197 drug offenders' total prison terms upon their release in 2006 had come to $15.6 million. "The cost of incarcerating drug offenders greatly exceeds the corresponding social benefit," they concluded.
            ------------------
            Pete: I have been a strong supporter of the death penalty, but given the current STATE of our governments interpretation of constitutional rights, I am re-thinking that position. I'd hate to see someone given a death sentence for ordering a 20oz soft drink or not turning in a 30 round clip.
            ----------------
            Let them taste salt!

             
          • Pete posted at 9:11 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob touched on another contributing factor to our broken criminal justice system and that is the fact that we have/are criminalizing everything - usually based on ideologically-based social engineering from one sector or another...and then we apply one-size-fits-all penalties for transgressors. This leads to a system clogged with petty criminals and depletes resources that could/should be used to fight serious crimes. We need to de-criminalize whole sets of personal behavior while at the same time ensuring that those who engage in such behaviors face the consequences of their choices. We can no longer mitigate the consequences of personal choices to the point where we are supplementing bad behavior. This simply leads to an escalation that usually ends in serious crime. In addition we need to rid ourselves of one-size-fits-all punishment and employ a wider range of tools to bring justice and deter crime...ie...restitution, work, confinement, mentoring, etc. I think this would mean a more spartan/harsh existence for violent offenders (including death), and a more pragmatic approach to non-violent offenders. Treating both the same seems asinine to me. Of course, this would require judges with the discretion and wisdom to apply the law/punishment and that may be too much to ask.

            I have been a strong supporter of the death penalty, but given the current STATE of our governments interpretation of constitutional rights, I am re-thinking that position. I'd hate to see someone given a death sentence for ordering a 20oz soft drink or not turning in a 30 round clip.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:40 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: Decriminalize Pot and other 'crimes against One's Self', and the population of prisons drops 25-50%?

            HTC: Hey, as a libertarian, I'm all for decriminalizing ALL drug use, provided that society isn't forced to pay for their usually repeated and useless 'rehab' nor forced to save them in the ER at our expense.

            That said, "drug offenders" make up a significantly higher percentage of the federal prison population (just under 25%) than they do in state prisons. The overwhelming majority of them are traffickers (70%), with the rest being in possession of large amounts of drugs with the presumption that it was possession with intent to sell.

            Federal prison capacity is a pittance compared to the sum total of the fifty states' capacity; hence, freeing up the federal prison cells holding these drug traffickers isn't going to result in a lot of new space for violent offenders. Furthermore, most homicides are prosecuted within the states, rather than the federal system, so those newly vacated federal prison cells are no help to the states.

            At the state level, while some prisoners can be found incarcerated for mere possession of controlled substances, the vast majority of those are in county and city jails, NOT the state prison system; hence, those cells are of no use for the long-term housing of violent felons.

            Simply put, we need a lot more secure, solitary cells and more correctional personnel to handle what is sure to be a growing LWOP population. Many states like CA would prefer to spend the required funds on social services for its massive illegal immigrant population than on keeping Californians safe.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:01 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: [Noam Chomsky] believes the pink 'un is the only global newspaper "that tells the truth."

            HTC: Of course he'd pick a pink'o' newspaper! While the FT does offer some difference in perspective at times, as does even the NY Times, they're heavily in bed with the liberal Democrats in the UK.

            Noam, however, must only read the non-financial news section of the FT because his juvenile economic theories stand in stark contrast to much of what's reported there.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:40 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HighTechCowboy posted at 7:30 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.
            HTC: "....nor does it account for the costs to society of the early release of other violent prisoners and sexual predators to make room for LWOP'ed prisoners."

            Decriminalize Pot and other 'crimes against One's Self', and the population of prisons drops 25-50%? Of course, for profit prisons and their stockholders would take a bath. Oh yikes!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:38 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Terrorist serving life for role in 1993 WTC bombing reportedly sues to end solitary:

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/18/terrorist-serving-life-for-role-in-13-wtc-bombing-reportedly-sues-to-end/

            Get used to these cases, because we're seeing more and more of them. LWOP is about to get a LOT more expensive.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:30 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            who new: Recent studies reveal that if the current system is maintained, Californians will spend an additional $5 billion to $7 billion over the cost of LWOP to fund the broken system between now and 2050.

            HTC: That's a mere $190 million a year in a state whose budget this year is $146 BILLION; in other words, it's only .13% percent of the state budget now and will become increasing smaller proportionately over time.

            The Loyola study doesn't factor in the true costs to properly house LWOP'ed prisoners, nor does it account for the costs to society of the early release of other violent prisoners and sexual predators to make room for LWOP'ed prisoners.

            Another serious flaw in the study is that it claims that only 5% of patients in CA who were LWOP'ed in a given year had done so as part of a plea agreement. The data is only relevant when stated as a percentage of those who were actually offered that option. Other studies I've seen show that it runs as high as 50% or a bit more of those actually offered such a deal; so, the leverage of having the death penalty on the table can be substantially more than they state.

            Regardless, things in CA and elsewhere are now changing where LWOP is concerned, fast becoming increasingly more expensive to litigate as lawyers now begin to use the same arguments they did in death penalty cases to drag these cases out for decades.

            Studies such as the rear-view-mirror' study done by Loyola, in their forward-looking projections don't take this change into account.

            The bottom line is that we need legislative reform to streamline this ridiculous system. Nowhere is such reform more needed than in CA where the law prevents one from pleading guilty to a capital crime no matter how much they might actually want to do so. Furthermore, upon conviction, CA law won't even allow the murderer to end the lengthy appeals process so that he/she can be executed.

            What else are a bunch of Democratic lawyer legislators in Sacramento going to do in a state with the highest per capita ratio of lawyers in the nation?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:35 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            ......[offtopic]......Good read!

            http://chomsky.info/onchomsky/20130215.htm
            Financial Times, February 15, 2013
            Ask your average political nerd to guess Noam Chomsky's favourite newspaper and few would tender the Financial Times. But the emeritus professor of linguistics and philosophy at MIT, revered the world over by left-wing intellectuals and social activists, believes the pink 'un is the only global newspaper "that tells the truth."

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:11 am on Mon, Feb 18, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Pequot posted at 10:28 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Although I pretty much agree with your semi-cynical account, it's not always about the money.......a lot of Headline Grabbing, Win at any Cost using Whatever Works, over-jealous prosecutors more than willing to throw someone away if it promotes their own agenda; and they need to be censored, with the wrongfully accused set free and made whole.

            http://www.innocenceproject.org/

            In the case of Ronald Allen Smith, it's clear what happened and he should have been executed by now......or deemed LWOP and forgotten. However, such clarity does not exist for many in prison, and a good, hard 'look' is within our power and is actually affordable! About the cost of 1 Navy version F-35, per year. The politics of 'What's more important?'.
            And if one looks at the Death Row inmates in Illinois, as a prime example, one can see that Justice was severely compromised, and is an indicator of the Rot in the System. But overturning a Jury Verdict pounded out by an Alpha Male/Female Lawyer using questionable tactics and forensics ain't easy, or cheap. It quickly turns into a mini-version of "Who is John Galt?" and one has to be prepared and up to the task of poking the beast.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:03 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            who new posted at 10:30 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013

            Uff da?

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1384308/Norways-controversial-cushy-prison-experiment--catch-UK.html

             
          • who new posted at 10:30 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            HTC: “…in California, LWOP'ed prisoners are now costing the state nearly as much in continued appeals as death penalty cases.”

            Regardless of the reasons (greed, money, gaming the system, whatever), the death penalty sentences cost states far more than life in prison sentences.

            “In a 2011 study, the authors examined the history of California’s death penalty system to inform voters of the reasons for its extraordinary delays. There, they set forth suggestions that could be adopted by the legislature or through the initiative process that would reduce delays in executing death-penalty judgments. The study revealed that, since 1978, California’s current system has cost the state’s taxpayers $4 billion more than a system that has life in prison without the possibility of parole (“LWOP”) as its most severe penalty.”

            “Recent studies reveal that if the current system is maintained, Californians will spend an additional $5 billion to $7 billion over the cost of LWOP to fund the broken system between now and 2050. In that time, roughly 740 more inmates will be added to death row, an additional fourteen executions will be carried out, and more than five hundred death-row inmates will die of old age or other causes before the state executes them.”

            http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2803&context=llr

            Also-

            http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/27/just-cost-death-penalty-killer-state-budgets/

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:12 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            redhawk posted at 8:28 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013

            Redhawk, long time no see. Do you remember our friend Ted the prison guard from Alaska and VietNam War Medic? I don't know if you were ever told that he died last year. I'm sure he has gone on to a better prison in the sky.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 8:42 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Pete posted at 8:40 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.
            Pete: I don't remember a pre-9/11 drone policy.

            IABD: Drones go back to WWI. Before then, effective drones were made by Montana Territorial prisoner's who would throw kerosene on a maximum security inmate by swinging a rope from the tier above and throwing a lit folded paper plane into the cell to ignite when the screws were not watching.

             
          • redhawk posted at 8:28 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            redhawk Posts: 150

            For once I totally agree with you Frank! Both killers freely admitted their crime, there was absolutely no doubt about 'who dun it.' the Flathead Valley needs to take a hard look at the way it prosecutes crime. Why is it that some people get a free pass to do just abut anything, and others don't?

             
          • SorrySOB posted at 8:15 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            SorrySOB Posts: 484

            As expected, the finger pointing quickly started to "liberals' being the problem. Interesting however, is of the 30 year period this piece of work has been in prison - 18 of those years were under GOP presidents. Pretty much sums up the incompetence of your party doesn't it?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:38 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Ronald Allen Smith in his own words said last year he is now a different person. Says it was all just drunken stupidity.

            It was merely drinker's remorse and I'm a good ole' boy now, and have joined a Scientology approved AA group. I will even vote republican if you let me out..!!

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua6A8sWQ9Qo

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:10 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Libra41 posted at 5:52 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Yes, it was a wonderful world I used to live in. The Last Best Place has since turned into a real-estate man's worst nightmare. I remembered both Thomas Running Rabbit, Jr. and Harvey Mad Man, Jr. while I was studying computer science courses at FVCC at the time. Thomas Running Rabbit IV, was six weeks old when his father was murdered.

            Ronald Allen Smith was captured in Wyoming after being ratted out by his accomplices.
            The other murder accomplices Rodney Munro and Andre Fontaine were all on their way to Mexico and captured for armed robbery later in California. " Smith left Canada because he was “messed up emotionally,” in part because of his father's rejection of Smith's daughter, and “had to get away from the environment that [he] was in in order to get calmed down.”   During this period, Smith, Munro, and Fontaine used drugs heavily, taking between thirty to forty hits of LSD daily.

            After crossing the border into Montana, Smith, Munro, and Fontaine patronized a bar on the southeast end of East Glacier. At the bar, they met two Native American men, Thomas Running Rabbit, Jr. and Harvey Mad Man, Jr. The five men drank beers and played pool together. Smith consumed between twelve and eighteen beers that day."

            http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1521659.html

            IABD-This sounds almost like the script for "Natural Born Killers" by Oliver Stone

             
          • Pete posted at 6:53 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Pequot posted at 10:28 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013

            Very well put.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:03 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 5:43 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            That's what I said. What have you been fracking in your pipe? Why aren't you trying to defend your bedwetting chicken hawk conservative buddy with the NRA, Ted Nugent?

             
          • libra42 posted at 5:52 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            libra42 Posts: 461

            Sounds like a wonderful world you live in.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:43 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            IABD: Yes, mile marker 195 of U.S. Highway 2 where the murders took place where not on the reservation.

            HTC: That is the scene of the crime for which he was tried; therefore, the state had jurisdiction.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:37 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Ronald Allan Smith was born in Wetaskawin, Alberta, a windswept outpost between Calgary and Edmonton, on Sept. 7, 1957. His father, Nelson, roughnecked and drilled on oil rigs throughout the province. Would Ronald Allen Smith's genetic history also indicate a 'natural born killer' instinct tendency for future oil-field 'frack baby's as well? Stay tuned....

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:58 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            If the killing of Harvey Mad Man and Thomas Running Rabbit were done by a Native American, the murders very likely wouldn't even make a local media story.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 2:42 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            The crime started out on the Blackfeet reservation. The East Glacier bar where Ronald Allen Smith and 2 other accomplices were picked up hitchhiking was on the reservation. Their intent was to steal a car, and murder the witnesses to the theft. Harvey Mad Man Jr. and Thomas Running Rabbit were kidnapped while on the reservation. Yes, mile marker 195 of U.S. Highway 2 where the murders took place where not on the reservation.

            STATE v. SMITH

            705 P.2d 1110 (1985)

            STATE of Montana, Plaintiff and Respondent,

            v.

            Ronald Allen Smith, Defendant and Appellant.

            No. 84-199.

            Supreme Court of Montana.

            Submitted June 25, 1985.

            Decided September 10, 1985.

            Gary G. Doran, argued, Kalispell, for defendant and appellant

            Mike Greely, Atty. Gen., James Scheier, argued, Asst. Atty. Gen., Helena, Ted O. Lympus, County Atty., Kalispell, for plaintiff and respondent.

            HARRISON, Justice.

            The defendant, Ronald Allen Smith, was convicted of aggravated kidnapping, two counts, and deliberate homicide, two counts. The defendant was convicted of each count pursuant to pleas of guilty entered in the District Court of Flathead County, State of Montana. The defendant was sentenced to death. The judgment and sentence were affirmed by this Court in State v. Smith (Mont. 1985), 705 P.2d 1087, 42 St.Rep. 463.

            This Court is again asked to reconsider the record and remand the matter for an additional psychiatric evaluation of defendant and a rehearing of the defendant's sentence, based upon a United States Supreme Court case of Ake v. Oklahoma (1985), ___ U.S. ___, 105 S.Ct. 1087, 84 L.Ed.2d 53, which came down after argument in this case.

            On August 4, 1982, defendant kidnapped and killed Harvey Mad Man, Jr., and Thomas Running Rabbit, Jr., at a remote location near U.S. Highway 2, west of the eastern border of Flathead County. On August 3, 1982, the defendant and two companions, Andre Fontaine and Rodney Munro, had departed from Alberta, Canada. The three encountered the two victims, Mad Man and Running Rabbit, at a bar in East Glacier, Montana. While at the bar, the three shot pool and drank beer with Mad Man and Running Rabbit. The three left the bar in East Glacier and hitchhiked west along Highway 2. There had been discussion between the defendant and Andre Fontaine about stealing a car and the need to eliminate any witnesses to the theft. Shortly thereafter, the three men were picked up by Mad Man and Running Rabbit. The men drove for approximately twenty minutes and stopped to allow Mad Man and Running Rabbit to relieve themselves. When the two men got back into the car, the defendant pulled a sawed-off single-shot bolt action .22 rifle, brought illegally into this country, and pointed it at the driver. Munro displayed his knife to the passenger. The defendant and Munro marched the two victims into the trees. The defendant shot Harvey Mad Man in the back of the head at point-blank range. He reloaded the rifle, walked several feet to where Thomas Running Rabbit had fallen to the ground upon being stabbed by Munro, and shot him in the temple at point-blank range. Both men were killed instantly. The defendant and the other two then stole the victims' car and proceeded to California. The car was later recovered when Fontaine and Munro were arrested for armed robbery in California. The defendant was arrested in Wyoming.

            An information was filed charging the defendant with two counts of aggravated kidnapping and two counts of deliberate homicide. An arraignment hearing was held on November 1, 1982, at which time the defendant entered a plea of "not guilty" to all charges. On February 24, 1983, the defendant entered a change of plea. The defendant admitted shooting both victims in the head. The court was apprised of the defendant's intention to seek the death penalty.

            At the sentencing hearing on March 21, 1983, the court and parties reviewed the presentence report and, after one minor correction, the court admitted it without objection. At the hearing, the defendant testified that he had been in prison for eight of the last ten years, and that he had lived by petty theft and selling drugs when he was not in prison. He testified in detail about the sixteen prior offenses listed in the presentence report. He testified to the facts of the killing. He stated that Munro was aware of his intent to kill the victims because he intended to steal their car and wished to leave no witnesses. He stated that in addition to his desire to eliminate the witnesses to the car theft, he had had a "morbid fascination to find out what it would be like to kill somebody." He testified that he had consumed two or three beers on the night of the crime but that his ability to understand his actions were not impaired. He testified he sought the death penalty because a prolonged period of incarceration would be of no benefit to himself or society and because he foresaw problems with the Indian population at the prison. He testified that he felt no remorse for the killings, that he considered himself a violent person, and that he felt he could kill again. He stated that he had no desire to change his lifestyle. Following extensive questioning by the court, the defendant denied being under the influence of drugs, intoxicants or extreme stress and stated that he knew of no mitigating circumstances.

            On March 21, 1983 at the conclusion of the hearing to determine the existence and nature of any aggravating or mitigating circumstances, the court imposed a sentence of death upon the defendant.

            Subsequently, the defendant filed a motion to seek a reconsideration of the death penalty and a motion for a psychiatric examination. The court held a hearing on the motions on May 3, 1983. At the hearing, the defendant testified that his family had induced him to change his mind and seek a lesser penalty than death. He testified that his earlier desire for the death penalty was the product of depression which had resulted from the long period of solitary confinement in the Flathead County Jail following his arrest. He further testified that he had designed his earlier testimony to induce the court to sentence him to death, and that he had concealed a potential mitigating factor — his use of drugs and alcohol. He testified that he and Munro had used three or four hundred "hits" of LSD during the period of time immediately prior to their entry to the United States, ending the day before the murders. He further testified that on the day of the crime he had consumed approximately twelve beers.

            On June 10, 1983 the court granted the defendant's motion for psychiatric evaluation. The court appointed a psychiatrist, Dr. William Stratford, to examine the defendant and report to the court as to: (1) whether he could determine which of the versions given by the defendant was credible; and (2) what was the defendant's mental condition on August 4, 1982. The defendant requested the court to amend its order deleting the investigative function of Dr. Stratford. The court amended its order and directed Dr. Stratford to assume the truth of defendant's second version of the facts in performing his examination.

            The court held a hearing on defendant's motion for reconsideration of the sentence on December 1, 1983. At the hearing, Dr. Stratford testified that he found no evidence that the use of drugs or alcohol affected the defendant's capacity to appreciate the criminality of his conduct, conform his conduct to the requirements of law, or form a criminal intent. He based his conclusions on the defendant's testimony and statements regarding his extensive use of LSD and his conduct on the day of the crime. According to Dr. Stratford, after three or four consecutive days of heavy LSD usage the user develops a tolerance for the drug. As a result, large doses have little or no effect. Given the defendant's history of heavy LSD usage for a period of one month or more prior to the crime, Dr. Stratford concluded that the use of eight or nine, or even as many as fifty doses of LSD would not have affected the defendant's mental state when he committed the homicides.

            Rodney Munro, the defendant's accomplice also testified at the hearing. Munro stated that at the time of the crime, he was experiencing confusion, flashes of light and hallucinations, having ingested approximately the same amount of drugs and alcohol as the defendant. He also testified that he had stabbed Running Rabbit once before the defendant shot him, and that it was possible Running Rabbit was already dead before he was shot.

            On December 12, 1983, the defendant filed his motion for an additional psychiatric evaluation. The defendant's motion was denied.

            In reviewing defendant's motion for reconsideration, the court entered findings of fact and conclusions of law to support its original sentence. The court found that beyond a reasonable doubt the aggravated kidnappings committed by the defendant resulted in the death of his victims, satisfying the statutory aggravating circumstance stated in section 46-18-303, MCA. The court found beyond a reasonable doubt that no mitigating circumstances were present. The court found that without exception, the defendant's consumption of alcohol and drugs was voluntary, and did not impair or otherwise affect his state of mind, his capacity to recognize and appreciate the criminality of his conduct or his ability to control his actions and to conform his conduct to the requirements of law. The court concluded that the defendant made a conscious and voluntary choice to kill the victims notwithstanding his use of drugs and alcohol, and that intoxication was not a sufficient mitigating circumstance to call for leniency.

            The defendant appealed from the sentence imposed. We affirmed. State v. Ronald Allen Smith, supra.

            Defendant's petition for rehearing is based on Ake v. Oklahoma (1985), ___ U.S. ___, 105 S.Ct. 1087, 84 L.Ed.2d 53. Our province on the appeal is to determine whether the defendant is entitled to an additional psychiatric exam under Ake, supra. The defendant argues that the Ake decision established a constitutional right for defendant's access to competent psychiatric assistance where such assistance is essential to the effective defense of the case. The defendant argues that in light of the Ake decision, he is entitled to an additional psychiatric examination. We disagree. We find the Ake decision lacks direct application to Montana's capital sentencing proceeding and to the present case.

            In Ake v. Oklahoma, supra, an indigent defendant was charged with first-degree murder. At his arraignment the trial judge ordered him to be examined by a psychiatrist due to his bizarre behavior. The defendant was initially found incompetent to stand trial, but six weeks later he was found competent so long as he continued to be sedated with anti-psychotic drugs. The defendant raised the insanity defense and requested a psychiatric evaluation to determine his mental state at the time of the offense. The trial court denied defendant's motion for such an evaluation. The United States Supreme Court reversed and held that when a defendant has made a preliminary showing that his sanity at the time of the offense is likely to be a significant factor at trial, the constitution requires that the state provide access to a psychiatrist's assistance on this issue, if the defendant cannot otherwise afford one.

            We find the Ake decision readily distinguishable from the case at bar. First, the psychiatric testimony in Ake raised the issue of the defendant's future dangerousness, which in Oklahoma is a statutory aggravating factor in a capital sentencing proceeding. Oklahoma Stat., Title 21, § 152 (1981). In Montana, future dangerousness is not a statutory aggravating circumstance under the state's capital sentencing scheme. Section 46-18-303, MCA. Unlike the situation that existed in Ake, the state did not rely upon or present psychiatric evidence to establish any aggravating factors at sentencing. Further, in this case, at no time did the State attempt to elicit from Dr. Stratford an opinion concerning future dangerousness of the defendant.

            Second, in Ake there was a trial. The defendant's sanity was a significant factor in his defense. In the present matter, the defendant plead guilty to the homicide and aggravated kidnapping offenses.

            Third, in the United States Supreme Court decision, there was no expert testimony for either side on Ake's sanity at the time of the offense. Ake, 105 S.Ct. at 1091. However, in Smith, supra, Dr. Stratford, the psychiatrist, gave extensive testimony as to the defendant's state of mind at the time of the offense including:

            (a) the effect of alcohol and drugs on the defendant's state of mind;

            (b) whether the defendant acted under extreme mental or emotional stress;

            (c) whether the defendant's capacity to appreciate the criminality of his conduct to the requirements of law was substantially impaired; and

            (d) a diagnosis of the defendant's mental condition. State v. Smith, 42 St.Rep. at 479, 705 P.2d 1087.

            Fourth, in Ake, the trial court denied defense counsel's request for a psychiatric examination of defendant with respect to his mental condition at the time of the offense. In the present case, the trial court granted defendant's initial request for the psychiatric evaluation. Following the examination and the psychiatrist's conclusion regarding the defendant's state of mind, the defendant filed a motion for an additional psychiatric evaluation. The second motion was denied. Based on the foregoing, we find the Ake decision readily distinguishable and without precedential merit to this case.

            The defendant also argues that he was not provided with a competent psychiatrist. The defendant repeats his contention raised in the initial appeal that Dr. Stratford's role was contaminated by the investigative function imposed by the District Court. This contention raised by the defendant in his briefs and argument is identical to that in the first appeal, State v. Ronald Allen Smith, supra.

            We have considered the argument not only in light of the issues raised in the original appeal, but also on the Ake decision. The United States Supreme Court in Ake, noted:

            This is not to say, of course, that the indigent defendant has a constitutional right to choose a psychiatrist of his personal liking or to receive funds to hire his own. Our concern is that the indigent defendant have access to a competent psychiatrist for the purpose we have discussed, and as in the case of the provision of counsel we leave to the State the decision on how to implement this right. (Emphasis added.) Ake, supra, 105 S.Ct. at 1097.

            The basic tenent of the Ake decision was to assure an indigent defendant's access to a competent psychiatrist for the preparation of a defense based on his mental condition. We find the defendant was afforded this right. The record clearly reflects Dr. Stratford's educational and professional qualifications. Dr. Stratford interviewed the defendant on two occasions at the Montana State Prison and considered the transcripts of the prior proceedings, the presentence report and witness statements provided by the defendant. Dr. Stratford also interviewed Rodney Munro and Andre Fontaine and secured a psychological profile of the defendant from Dr. Herman Walters.

            Dr. Stratford's conclusion was that Smith had the capacity to appreciate the criminality of his conduct and that the drugs and alcohol did not have a substantial effect on the defendant's state of mind. The record demonstrates that Dr. Stratford was a neutral psychiatrist who examined Smith as to his sanity at the time of the offenses. Dr. Stratford testified to the foregoing at the hearing and it was on that basis that this Court found no additional psychiatric evaluation was necessary.

            Accordingly, we find that Ronald Allen Smith is not entitled to a second psychiatrist's evaluation.

            We concur:

            TURNAGE, C.J., and WEBER, MORRISON, SHEEHY, HUNT and GULBRANDSON, JJ., concur.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 2:10 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1565

            It's a beautiful day posted at 12:32 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Haha, that's too funny! He probably looked like me back then!

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 2:03 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1565

            Pequot posted at 10:28 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            I totally agree. The sooner we realize this "justice" system, and it's "business as usual" attitude, the sooner we can we raise our expectations of having anything near "justice". The entire legal system's bureaucracy is (and has been) blown completely out of proportion, is not effective, and is (in totality) one of the most costly government sectors we allow. Soon, we should all either be in prison, or working for the prison system.

            Side bar: Two friends of mine worked for the DOJ. As a married couple, one worked there for twenty two years, the other for thirty. They are now 51 and 52 years old. Their combined retirement package is $240,000 per year with all medical/dental costs paid for indefinitely. Also, if they wanted to stay at their jobs (which they did not) they could have continued working and have increased their retirement benefit by 30% after a mere five years. They have since moved to Nevada (away from the state that employed them) to avoid state income tax. They were allowed to “buy into” the increased retirement benefit package for a mere $60,000, which will increase their benefit by $10,000 (each) in two years. At that time they are considering buying real property in the Cayman Islands, and denouncing their American citizenship so they will no longer have to pay Federal taxes. They are both healthy, happy, and living the good life, the good life indeed!

             
          • libra42 posted at 2:01 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            libra42 Posts: 461

            IABD, I think you are mistaken as to the location of the murder. It was not on the rez.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:53 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Trying to stay on topic Frank. So if Ronald Allen Smith were to happen to rape a female guard whilst in Deer Lodge State Prison, would his semen therefore be protected? Would the guard would be required to bear his child against her will? What would be your expert semen analysis?

             
          • posted at 12:59 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Posts:

            Cordwood: The answer to your question is yes, but it requires a logical approach rather than an emotional one. Innocent life should always be protected by the state. That's why we have laws against murder, but allow an exemption for self-defense. The attacker is no longer an innocent life, and thus has given up his right to protection. The unborn child who is aborted, on the other hand, has done nothing wrong except pick bad parents. --Frank

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:32 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Check out an article on how the NRA's bedwetting republican chickenhawk conservative Ted Nugent admits evading the draft:

            http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/ted-nugent-draft-dodger-467132

             
          • Rob123 posted at 12:30 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Claus posted at 10:42 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.
            Posts: 324
            Take care with those dogs out in the woods, Rob123....

            Oh, I do. I carry a 45, as I live about 1+ mile from a Primitive Area, with Wolf Packs........To many of them, IMHO. But shooting a wolf in a 'defensive' manner, is not too serious. A little paper work. And since Wolves will take out a dog, as they dislike competition, it's not hard to explain to a Game Warden what happened, if the situation arises.
            And with the neighbors Cows approaching Calving Season, they tend to move in. And the Coyotes move in even closer. Heck, last October the neighbors spotted 2 large wolves hunting deer in their field at the same time that a 350+/- lb mamma black bear with Triplets, who the dogs and I had bumped into off and on all summer, decided to move into my backyard, as there were some berries for the cubs and lots of visibility for her, as she nervously patrolled the perimeter, seldom eating......strange behavior for October, until the neighbors told me about the wolves. Then it made sense, although she was a Royal Pain in the Azz after a few days. But the cubs were cute......60 lb fur balls, eating like crazy. Many excellent pictures, as the fur balls ran around like they owned the place. Of course, with Mom close by, they did! Drove my dogs nuts! (-:

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:17 pm on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Ronald Alan Smith used a sawed-off rifle which he had smuggled across the US/Canadian border illegally on foot. This was an invasion on US soil by an enemy of the United States. The crime took place on the Blackfeet Nation land and should have never been the State of Montana's judicial problem. The Blackfeet Nation extends into Canada and legally the Tribal Government should handle this problem, not the GOP's bedwetting republican chickenhawk conservatives.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:52 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            jennydoe, I don't know what the big deal is about email addresses and their security. I'll give you my public address so you can contact me for my private one. I doubt any one here lacks integrity or respect for privacy enough to email me their hatred or threaten me over the internet. And if so, I'll get a good laugh. On the other hand, I may make some more friends.

            paulf@bluebarktales.com

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:38 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            jennydoe posted at 10:08 am on Sun: Injustice is served daily. Why are any of you surprised?
            ---------------------
            "Injustice" is often confused with "I disagree with the verdict." And the more folks we get to disagree along with us, the more righteous our opinion becomes.
            I find "criminal intent" a fascinating study. Not 'general intent' or 'specific intent', but 'constructive intent', the unintentional results of an act. Is it "distribution of pre-term necrophilic child pornography" or simply "handing out Pro Life pamphlets with photos of an aborted fetus"?
            Our courts' attempt to plumb the mind of the perpetrator in order to garner enough guilt to convict at times makes many trials look like witch hunts. Or, according to Pequot's theory, they're just grinding out cases for an infinite income source.
            On the other hand, this Ronald Allen Smith character, once he confessed at trial and agreed with sentencing, should have been ignored when he changed his mind. There is absolutely no benefit in allowing this guy to continue breathing the same air as we breathe.

             
          • lousia posted at 11:11 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            lousia Posts: 196

            Thanks Frank, this was a column that was long over due. And you done it superbly .
            Here this Smith has been living off the State all these years, with the best medical care and the best fancy lawyers plus judges all this time. and absolutely nothing for the families of these young Indians he murdered, just more hearing etc. and he said that putting him to death now would be so in human, what was it when he murdered these two young men, they were full of life and had a life to live they would of liked to do that I am very sure.
            Where do people like Smith come from,, anyway he will just going to keep on living in the prison with his lawyers by his side. He will Die of old age. well at least his lawyers got something out of this mess.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:02 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Arms dealers are make their living by selling automatic assault rifles and armor piercing bullets to anyone who wants to know what it is like to kill somebody in America everyday.

            HTC, you're a bloody good sport old chap, would you go for a special blood sport hunting season for the privileged NRA chicken hawk elitists next to the Deer Lodge Prison? Giving the convicted murderers a sporting 5 minute head start of course.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:57 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: Ya know, you can be one ugly little warped genius at times.

            HTC: Apparently you carry a recessive gene for liberal bed-wetting.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:52 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Pequot posted at 10:28 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013

            Very succinctly put. [thumbup][thumbup]

             
          • Claus posted at 10:42 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Claus Posts: 408

            Take care with those dogs out in the woods, Rob123, and keep in mind that it's illegal to shoot wolves without a special dispensation, painfully won from our learned aristocracy in DC.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:37 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Pequot posted at 10:28 am on Sun, Feb 17
            ----------------
            Hmmmm...the judicial system living off the gov't teat. Would that be the 'hind teat'?

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 10:37 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            How is it that a killer will so often receive mercy and legal consideration far beyond reason and common sense? if I remember correctly, Mr. Smith requested the death penalty? In any event, he confessed to the killing and even gave his "reason". It is way past time to get rid of this person, by what ever method is expedient.

             
          • cordwood posted at 10:34 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            cordwood Posts: 96

            I thought you were pro-life Frank. Can one be anti-abortion and pro-execution?

             
          • Pequot posted at 10:28 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Pequot Posts: 525

            Just as SorrySob rarely agrees with Frank I just as rarely agree with the convoluted thinking of Rob123. And I continue to disagree with him on reading his attempt to connect or compare the Drone program to the Ronald Smith travesty.

            Again, folks, as often noted, it's all about the money. Back in the 30s and earlier some smart*** lawyer hadn't yet conceived of the idea that the law could be used to generate income. Im sure it was a eureka moment when someone figured out slow justice is remunerative justice. Judges, all ex-lawyers, added to the lengthening of the judicial process by generating income with their interminable recesses and inevitable granting of delays for one reason or another. All, of course, with cooperation and agreement of the prosecution and it's public treasure chest of cash, and the hourly billing largesse enjoyed by the defense. If you can't afford a lawyer not to worry as the taxpayer will cover the cost, or a goodly portion. The ACLU, lawyers all, weighed in with their sobbing and wrenching share of the deposit slips. Then there's law enforcement, probation agencies, state forensic labs, county, state and federal prison systems all feasting at the public cash trough. Jurisprudence does not use public funds prudently. Life in prison asks for lots of tax dollars and provides a variety of jobs for people caring for the incarcerated. Working the wheels of justice quickly short circuits the cash flow, especially in capital cases when an execution is the outcome. Working slowly in the search for the right amount of justice is expensive to the taxpayer and profitable to the search parties. That "several more years" the system "bought" for Smith also "bought" itself a continuance of income. The search for fairness without senescence is virtually impossible when senescence is lucrative to some and sustaining to others.

            At this point it is probably better to continue the "mockery" of justice and keep the wheels lubricated since the sunk cost of keeping Smith alive cannot be 'recouped' with an injection or a rope. Keeping his case in the court system is throwing good money after bad in more ways than one.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 10:08 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            jennydoe Posts: 2198

            Bronco, please ask Frank for my email.
            Frank, please forward my email to Bronco.
            Thanks.

            Injustice is served daily. Why are any of you surprised?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:05 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Claus: After the 2012 election that flag went down to the basement over my reloading bench.

            HTC: Considering that Obama has now given himself and his administrative team the power to execute American citizens without due process, it would probably be appropriate to fly the flag upside down.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:04 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            HTC: You still don't get it that they hate us for who were are? Still buying into that "religion of peace" garbage?

            Ya know, you can be one ugly little warped genius at times. Incredible. I could lecture you on your Self Righteous diatribes, and then expand it to a whole class of political actors, but why waste my time when I could also take a nice long walk with the dogs, out in the beautiful Montana woods? See ya.

             
          • Claus posted at 9:59 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Claus Posts: 408

            The latest liberal Democrat stance on the death penalty seems to be that it is deplorable to execute someone after a lengthy process of trials and appeals, but it is OK to execute someone by remote controlled drone with no trial at all, as long as it is not a Republican or, God forbid, an Israeli pulling the trigger.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:52 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            Rob123: I'm not a fan of the Death Penalty, and think it should be used sparingly, and only on the most horrific and obvious "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" cases. Yet, our Constitution and Legal System is written in such a way as to put emphasis on the Individual over the State, so that even in the case of Ronald Smith it is difficult and VERY expensive to carry out...

            HTC: As I pointed out in my response to who new, we're already well on our way to having LWOP cases cost us just as much in endless appeals. In CA, some LWOP'ed prisoners are now suing the state, asking to be put to death on the grounds that LWOP is more cruel than being executed for their crime(s). Some liberal groups are trying to get LWOP declared as unconstitutional on the grounds of it supposedly being "cruel and unusual" punishment.

            Rob123: ....while Legal Social Psychologists point out over and over that as a Hindrance to Crime, the Death Penalty has little impact.

            HTC: This is true for virtually all forms of punishment because most criminals believe they won't be caught. Deterrence isn't a factor arguing for it or any other punishment, so that needs to be dropped from the discussion. There are at least a couple of arguments in favor of the death penalty.

            The first is that most Americans support it and a goodly number of family members of their victims report greater closure after execution of the perp versus those whose whose perps were LWOP'ed.

            Secondly, LWOP'ed prisoners are a danger to the general prison population as well as to the correctional staff. This is why those who can afford it often keep LWOP'ed prisoners separate from the general population and often in solitary. The solitary confinement aspect is what is helping bed-wetters gain legal traction in their arguments that LWOP is "cruel and unusual". Dealing with these added legal costs, as well as physical confinement costs, are quickly driving up the cost of LWOP sentences.

            Rob123: The Death Penalty has more to do with the Olde Puritan biblical version of an "Eye for an Eye" than anything else.

            HTC: Perhaps for some victims that is true; however, if we fix our legal system, the death penalty could be much cheaper than the LWOP option and place correctional staff at reduced risk in the process. There would also be less risk to the general public as escapes of condemned prisoners are not unheard of.

            Rob123: Yet these same Death Penalty-Eye for an Eye- types can't seem to grasp what our American Drone Policy is creating in foreign lands and why so many dislike US., as we kill a bad guy and all the innocents sitting or standing next to him. Incredible.

            HTC: You still don't get it that they hate us for who were are? Still buying into that "religion of peace" garbage?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:39 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            Pete: "I don't remember a pre-9/11 drone policy."

            FYI.....off topic, but interesting.

            "The August 2 and August 4, 1964, clash in the Tonkin Gulf between naval units of the U.S. and North Vietnamese Navy initiated America's highly classified UAVs into their first combat missions of the Vietnam War.[7] When the "Red Chinese"[8] showed photographs of downed U.S. UAVs via Wide World Photos,[9] the official U.S. response was, "no comment." "

            "the USAF 100th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing had flown approximately 3,435 UAV missions during the war,[11] at a cost of about 554 UAVs lost to all causes...."

             
          • Claus posted at 9:37 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Claus Posts: 408

            "It's not the one thing. It's the dismal tide."

            Before 2008 I flew the Stars and Stripes every day from my front porch. After that election I started flying it only on the appropriate holidays. After the 2012 election that flag went down to the basement over my reloading bench.

            In a town that can be expected to give 60-70 percent of its vote to the Republican candidate and sends a large proportion of its young into military service, I notice an overall dearth of flags compared to past years. I think that it's not just that we're opposed to the present political regime, we're opposed to the whole direction that the federal government and society at large have taken.

            Our current situation can be traced directly back to LBJ and the Democrat super-majority of 1964. That crucial time period of 1964-1968 was the staging ground for so much of the devolution that has happened since.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:10 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9902

            who new: For this reason, and because the continuous appeals are a strain financially to our judicial system, I think the death penalty should be abolished. Ronald Smith should have been sentenced to life in prison and ignored, never to be heard from again.

            HTC: LWOP'ing a POS like Smith isn't the answer either.

            Why? Because we're already heading down the same costly legal road in LWOP cases as we have with death penalty cases. For example, in California, LWOP'ed prisoners are now costing the state nearly as much in continued appeals as death penalty cases.

            The problem here is the invasion of the legal system by the brain-damaged liberal mind set. The only way to fix this is to get the bed-wetters out of the equation.


             
          • Pete posted at 8:40 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 4:24 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013

            "Yet these same Death Penalty-Eye for an Eye- types can't seem to grasp what our American Drone Policy is creating in foreign lands and why so many dislike US."

            I don't remember a pre-9/11 drone policy. While I probably agree with you 99% on intervention and foreign entanglements, I also believe there is genuine evil that needs no provocation.

             
          • Pete posted at 8:32 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            It's a beautiful day posted at 9:01 pm on Sat, Feb 16, 2013

            "...nature can be very harsh and unforgiving."

            ...but not nearly as dangerous to the human spirit as the great society's welfare state.

             
          • Pete posted at 8:26 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            I also agree with nearly all the sentiments expressed here. From "putting him down", to leaving him to Blackfoot justice, to locking him up and throwing away the key. One thing is sure, the families of these men have been denied justice, and that is a real shame.

            But the Ronald Smith case is just a by-product of our broken system. Ironically, I think it is a problem that can be tackled in a non-partisan manner - as is demonstrated here.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:24 am on Sun, Feb 17, 2013.

            Rob123 Posts: 6604

            who new posted at 10:58 pm on Sat, Feb 16, 2013.

            [thumbup]
            I'm not a fan of the Death Penalty, and think it should be used sparingly, and only on the most horrific and obvious "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" cases. Yet, our Constitution and Legal System is written in such a way as to put emphasis on the Individual over the State, so that even in the case of Ronald Smith it is difficult and VERY expensive to carry out, while Legal Social Psychologists point out over and over that as a Hindrance to Crime, the Death Penalty has little impact.
            The Death Penalty has more to do with the Olde Puritan biblical version of an "Eye for an Eye" than anything else. Yet these same Death Penalty-Eye for an Eye- types can't seem to grasp what our American Drone Policy is creating in foreign lands and why so many dislike US., as we kill a bad guy and all the innocents sitting or standing next to him. Incredible.

             
          • who new posted at 10:58 pm on Sat, Feb 16, 2013.

            who new Posts: 367

            I believe part of the reason Smith continued this charade ad infinitum is because of his desire to be someone of importance. And he has succeeded- who in Montana has not heard of Ronald Smith?

            For this reason, and because the continuous appeals are a strain financially to our judicial system, I think the death penalty should be abolished. Ronald Smith should have been sentenced to life in prison and ignored, never to be heard from again.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 9:56 pm on Sat, Feb 16, 2013.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2693

            "catch and release" traditionally the effect of a liberal judge's decision. The idea of leaving him to the mercies of the Blackfeet Nation is a good one.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:01 pm on Sat, Feb 16, 2013.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Ronald Allen Smith can surely find justice and peace in somewhere in Montana. Since Mr. Smith wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone and death is no longer an option and life in prison is unaffordable in our neoconservative catch and release state prison system, forgiveness would be the only viable option left.

            The Blackfeet Nation can be a very forgiving people who are more of a Christian society than people realize..and sorry Mitt, the Blackfeet are not some lost tribe of mormon jews.

            If Mr. Smith were to be forced to live with the Blackfeet Nation on the reservation for the rest of his days in a 40 year old trailer home, he will soon realize what it feels like to kill someone. From the unbearably hot summers to the extremely cold winters, lack of employment opportunities, nature can be very harsh and unforgiving. If he decides to wander anywhere or migrate back to Canada he would eventually be fracked to death anyway.

             
          • SorrySOB posted at 7:50 pm on Sat, Feb 16, 2013.

            SorrySOB Posts: 484

            Mark the calendar. This is the first (and very possibly the last) time I totally agree with Frank. I remember the crime and case well. The total disregard and contempt for human life by Smith was unjustifiable and unforgivable. He should have been put down a long time ago.