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Posted: Saturday, October 22, 2011 6:00 pm | Updated: 12:10 pm, Thu Apr 17, 2014.

The Occupy Wall Street movement has been aptly described as “Anarchists for Totalitarianism.”

Given the logical inconsistency of such a movement, the OWS folks have to be glad there is no official theme song yet; otherwise, the repetitive mindless chants emanating from Zuccotti Park would all have to end with “If I only had a BRAIN!”

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          Welcome to the discussion.

          252 comments:

          • fredh posted at 11:14 am on Tue, Nov 15, 2011.

            fredh Posts: 98

            On the wall street protesters , when are "We the People" going to look at who is creating all these problems. The Federal government created all these problem going back to Pres. Roosevelt , he stole all of American gold, to finance his socialist agenda , he kick out Adam Smith's free market economy, and replace it with Keynesianism , under this economy ,government could spend it's way to prosperity . Now move up to Pres. Johnson and his Great society and his war on poverty. Perhaps the worse thing he did was the Civil Rights Bill of 1964, it was pass to help the black , but two hours before congress signing the bill ,they included all women to be a minority . Since the signing of that bill congress has passed over 400 laws empowering women, like AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, 0 laws to help men and fathers. This in my opinion this was to eliminate the father from the home, and to eliminate marriage. Under affirmative action companies could not hire the best qualified person to do the job, they were force into a quota system, so many men, so many women, so many blacks, so many Indians, and etc. Productivity in Americas workforce droped from 100 percent in 1970 to 50 percent by 1983. In my opinion this is the main reason companies started to move overseas. So don't blame the corporations , they are being regulated to death, blame the Federal government and the huge bureaucracy. These bureaucracy need chaos to justified their jobs, to a point government employees more people then those working in the private sector.

             
          • OPPRESSOR posted at 6:03 pm on Sun, Oct 30, 2011.

            OPPRESSOR Posts: 27

            (The following is from the Pakin complaint letter generator - Sounds just like you Frank!)

            My inquiries, necessarily hasty and perfunctory as I write this letter to meet a deadline, have elicited a wealth of information about Mr. Frank Miele. I assume you already know that snappish lazy-types like Mr. Miele belong in prison where they can be kept away from the general public so let me begin this letter by remarking that Mr. Miele keeps trying to plant the seeds of cynicism into the tabulae rasae of children's minds. And if we don't remain eternally vigilant, he will undoubtedly succeed. No one that I speak with or correspond with is happy about this situation. Of course, I don't speak or correspond with negligent wiseacres, Mr. Miele's toadies, or anyone else who fails to realize that poststructuralism, collectivism, and Maoism follow Mr. Miele's footsteps. Wherever he goes, such things are sure to sprout up. The implication is that Mr. Miele wants to call for ritualistic invocations of needlessly formal rules. Such intolerance is felt by all people, from every background.

            Even so, we must defend with dedication and ferocity the very rights that Mr. Miele so desperately wants to abolish. If we don't, future generations will not know freedom. Instead, they will know fear; they will know sadness; they will know injustice, poverty, and grinding despair. Most of all, they will realize, albeit far too late, that Mr. Miele likes saying that he has his moral compass in tact. Okay, that's a parody—but not a very gross one. In point of fact, Mr. Miele relies heavily on "useful idiots", that is, people who unwittingly do Mr. Miele's dirty work for him. Without his swarms of useful idiots, Mr. Miele would not have been able to conceal the fact that his lynch mob is an incubator for an upcoming new epidemic of boosterism. Nevertheless, I can state with absolute certainty that by allowing him to leave a large part of this country's workforce dislocated and disillusioned, we are allowing him to play puppet master.

            Now, it is not my purpose to suggest that to me, the biggest outrage is that Mr. Miele makes assertions that strain credulity but rather to oppose Mr. Miele and all he stands for. Some vile, impolitic thieves actually warrant that our elected officials should be available for purchase by special-interest groups. This is the kind of muddled thinking that he is encouraging with his memoirs. Even worse, all those who raise their voice against this brainwashing campaign are denounced as chthonic, censorious present-day robber barons. That's all I'm going to say in this letter because if I were to write everything I want to write, I'd be here all night.

            In this letter, I plan to discuss The Daily Interlake's barbaric press releases quite extensively. Note that the details aren't pleasant. In fact, they're shocking. But I contend that people who don't know what The Daily Interlake is up to indubitably need to be shocked. First, the misinformation: The Daily Interlake suggests that it can convince criminals to fill out an application form before committing a crime. Where the heck did it come up with that? You know the answer, don't you? You probably also know that its thesis is that "the truth", "the whole truth", and "nothing but the truth" are three different things. That's thoroughly obnoxious, you say? Good; that means you're finally catching on. The next step is to observe that The Daily Interlake periodically puts up a façade of reform. However, underneath the pretty surface, it's always business as usual.

            Curiously, some people believe that one day The Daily Interlake's disciples will fight for what is right. Such people are doomed to disappointment, especially when one considers that The Daily Interlake would have you believe that five-crystal orgone generators can eliminate mind-control energies that are being radiated from secret, underground, government facilities. I have already, for the present at least, sufficiently answered the climatic part of this proposition and have only to add that The Daily Interlake claims that its enemies are aligned with very dark and malevolent fourth-dimensional aliens known as Draconians. I respond that the issues surrounding militarism are more complex and embedded than it will admit. If demagogism were an Olympic sport, The Daily Interlake would clinch the gold medal. I must part company with many of my peers when it comes to understanding why The Daily Interlake is morally debased and has no convictions of right or wrong. My peers claim that my comments about The Daily Interlake can serve as a provisional response to its revenge fantasies until a more comprehensive treatment becomes available. While this is indisputably true, I assert we must add that its cold, analytical approach to nihilism doesn't take into account the human element. In particular, those who have been hurt by nihilism know that The Daily Interlake insists that it has no choice but to take rights away from individuals whom only The Daily Interlake perceives as irascible. The Daily Interlake's reasoning is that things have never been better. Yes, I realize that that argument makes no sense, but The Daily Interlake is the type of organization that turns up its nose at people like you and me. I guess that's because we haven't the faintest notion about the things that really matter such as why it would be good for it to undermine liberty in the name of liberty.

            Although brevity is the soul of wit I do need to say quite a bit more about how my purpose here is not to raise the quality of debate on issues surrounding The Daily Interlake's backwards false-flag operations. Well, okay, it is. But I should point out that practicing human sacrifice on a grand scale in some sort of self-indulgent death cult is a mug's game. The only reason it does things like that is because it proclaims at every opportunity that it'd never create some cynical, pseudo-psychological profile of me to discredit my opinions. The organization doth protest too much, methinks. Finally, any one of the points I made in this letter could be turned into a complete research paper, but the conclusion of each would be the same: I wish disruptive barbarians like The Daily Interlake's hatchet men would quit whining and try doing some honest work for a change.

             
          • OPPRESSOR posted at 5:57 pm on Sun, Oct 30, 2011.

            OPPRESSOR Posts: 27

            Been a long time since I've read your column, Frank, and now I remember why I stopped reading the Daily Mistake. It is incredible how much one sided spin you put in such a small space. I can see why with you as editor of this paper why all the Separatists and Supremacists are flocking en-mass to this location. It reads as you have went to the Scott Pakin complaint letter generator (google it) and plugged in your target du jour. Kind of like the tea b.a.g.g.e.r.s. have a large laundry list of anything and everything progressive they hate, I've seen, you defend them time and again. Here, you have taken a half-hearted stab at one of the many topics that are protested by the OWS protesters and spun it into a pile of cat crap full of vile bitterness, zero debate, compromise, or any sort of an attempt at what OWS is about. Your short vision equals your short stature and if published columns like this one is in hopes to be one day be hired by Faux news, then you're doing a mighty fine job!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:53 am on Sun, Oct 30, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: If it's so simple, what's the problem?

            HTC: It's a problem because at least half of the western population doesn't care about facts - just what appeals to their liberal "sensitivities."

            In saner times they'd all be pronounced mentally deficient.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:21 am on Sun, Oct 30, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "It's a simple fact that the Jews have an historical claim to that region while the "Palestinians", who are a modern fabrication, do not."

            If it's so simple, what's the problem?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:41 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: And, by the way, around 1200 BC, the Philistines settle along the shores of Palestine.

            HTC: You just don't get it, do you?

            There was no "Palestine" in ancient history - you won't find references to a nation or people by that name in any of the recordings of the dominant empires of ancient history but the Jews certainly did occupy that disputed area for thousands of years and do appear in the records of those ancient civilizations.

            It's a simple fact that the Jews have an historical claim to that region while the "Palestinians", who are a modern fabrication, do not.


             
          • Bronco posted at 7:08 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            And, by the way, around 1200 BC, the Philistines settle along the shores of Palestine.

             
          • Bronco posted at 7:05 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328


            c. 4000-2000 BC
            -Kingdoms in Egypt, Sumer, and Babylonia

            c. 1000 BC
            -New Kingdom in Egypt, Kingdoms in Phoenicia and Assyria. The first thoughts on monotheism (the belief in one god) emerge.

            500-400 BC
            -The Persian empire (present day Iran) conquers all of the Middle East.

            334 BC
            -Alexander the Great of Macedonia defeats the Persians and claims the Middle East.

            c. 200-300 BC
            -The Romans gain control over all of the Middle East except for Persia.

            570-632 AD
            -Life of Mohammed. Mohammed founds the religion of Islam, and leads the beginning of an Arab-Islamic empire that will soon hold sway over the entire Middle East.

            661-750
            -The Umayyad Dynasty gains control over the Arab-Islamic empire and greatly expands its territories. The empire spreads westward throughout North Africa, north into Spain, and eastward to the borders of India and China.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:02 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            "Just ignorant desert tribes that still exists today...."

            Ouch.

             
          • kohana posted at 4:51 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?
            And if I am only for myself, then what am I?
            And if not now, when?”

            Rabbi Hillel.
            In the first century BCE, Babylonian born Hillel (later known as Hillel the Elder) migrated to the Land of Israel to study and worked as a woodcutter, eventually becoming the most influential force in Jewish life. Hillel is said to have lived in such great poverty that he was sometimes unable to pay the admission fee to study Torah, and because of him that fee was abolished. He was known for his kindness, gentleness, concern for humanity. One of his most famous sayings, recorded in Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers, a tractate of the Mishnah), is "If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?"

            Nary a soul called a Palestinian. Nor Arabs either, just ignorant desert tribes that still exists today, and like the OWS people trying to take whatever they want without working for it.

            Most of the Canaanites were married into the Hebrew tribes. The Prophets got onto them about that. Multiculturalism was frowned upon. Just like today, they didn't have the heart to slaughter whole populations to protect themselves. You'd think after about 3000 years they would have learned. But no, they still think human life is valuable no matter the culture.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:01 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: Does your wife have one that says "I'm with stupid =>"

            How did you know that? Personal experience, or intuitive logic? But ya, she does.
            _________________________________________________________________
            kohana: " Most authorities agree the current alphabets were based upon Hebrew letters."

            Whoa! Most? It's still being studied, although the caves on the route of the Hebrews from the time of the Exodus certainly have a form of 'shorthand' based on Egyptian Hieroglyphs. The problem of 'first' is the Phoenicians, being rabid business dudes and well traveled, had a similar approach about the same time. 'First' is difficult, especially when the Israeli form seems like Military Shorthand Code more than an Alphabet, per se. But it certainly evolved. And the problem of 'who were these Phoenician dudes'? He//s Bells, where did all the Canaanites go? Couldn't have killed them all? Are they Palestinians in disguise? All seemed to have lived in the same area? Maybe they are the folks who lived in the bland/vacant spaces on the maps supplied by the Minister of Defense-Israel?
            Glad I live in Montucky, and only have to send tax dollars, not my body.

            Back to my original statement from this morning? They sure have a knack for being Self Righteous? (-:

             
          • Claus posted at 3:16 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Claus Posts: 392

            I would like to see some evidence that Bronco is a sentient being.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:47 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Really, Fact Finder? Getting your history from the bible?

            HTC: Clearly, when you were circumcised, they cut off the wrong head.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:41 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: I have a Sweat Shirt that says:

            I scre#ed you All
            _________________
            Picture of
            Bush
            _____________
            But thanks for blaming
            the black guy.

            HTC: Does your wife have one that says "I'm with stupid =>"

             
          • kohana posted at 1:50 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Populist catharsis on Wall Street
            by Clare L. Spark posted Oct 10, 2011
            http://clarespark.com/2011/10/10/populist-catharsis-on-wall-street/

            The Occupy Wall Street movement has the support of Old Leftists (Stalinists, Trotskyists), populists, tenured professors steeped in Keynesian economics, Big Labor, and an assortment of young people worried about their student loans and the lack of job opportunities. Some pundits on Fox News have been interpreting this protest movement as a product of disillusion with Obama, and a movement to his Left. My view is that it is a calculated event and part of his campaign for re-election, and perhaps even managed and instigated out of the White House, expressing Obama’s own Leninism as reinterpreted by Keynesian economics and a long-lived “soak the rich” philosophy that is directed against imputed Jewish control of everything: As “the money power” [the obscenely bloated Jew] controls banks, hedge funds, the media, advertising, and plants computer chips in our brain so that the ‘Jewish’ mask is not penetrated by ‘Jewry’s’ victims and sets them against their parents. I.e, Through the control of “public opinion” the money power perpetuates its oligarchical, illegitimate control, and celebrates “corporate greed.”

            No one should see OWS as anything resembling a leftist revolt, and those [New Leftists] who are crowing over it should hang their heads in shame, for they have sold out, possibly in the expectation that they would be rewarded with advancement in the new Obama dispensation.
            This is how 19th century Marxists (not Leninists) operated in the past; unlike OWS, they were generally analytical, focused, disciplined, and had a goal in sight:

            1. They identified a revolutionary agency—the new working class that, in their analysis, would be increasingly immiserated and would stop production in a general strike and take over the reins of power, this time
            abolishing classes altogether and, with a more just distribution of resources, would institute communism: “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” It was vague, but Marx at least saw the bourgeoisie as a progressive class that had created and developed the productive forces that would enable capitalism’s transcendence into a society of abundance and the defeat of needless toil.
            2. Along with this optimistic prophecy, at any particular stage of struggle, the Marxists asked themselves, “given the correlation of forces, what is the task of our generation?” This required constant study of every institution; also focus on the likely allies to revolutionary struggle. Marx himself predicted that parts of the bourgeoisie would break off and join the working class. Crucially, one didn’t expect “the streets” to be
            the site of structural transformation. There had to be a ripened situation, such as a crisis of capitalism. So it seemed in the Great Depression, and hence hordes of intellectuals, workers, and small businessmen joined the Left or the Popular Front with its antifascist agenda. (Some even stayed there after the Nazi-Soviet Pact in 1939, and their children often remained tied to some form of Leftism, no matter how attenuated .)
            3. The romantic part of Marxism is this: there could be no preconceived plan for the just society—a plan that we could all look at. There were no Federalist Papers or copies of a proposed Constitution for the working-class revolution. Rather, it would evolve organically out of revolutionary struggle and the leadership of the “conscious” working class. It could not take place in a technologically backward society (here is the point of divergence from Leninism and Maoism or Third Worldism).
            Surely, only a half-educated demagogue such as Keith Olbermann or a “progressive” neo-Keynesian college professor such as Jeffrey Sachs would see the present situation as ripe for revolution, in a series of demonstrations populated by frightened, undereducated youth and opportunistic labor unions or diehard Stalinists. Is there socialism ahead? I doubt it. Maybe fascist dictatorship given the populist rage and Jew-hatred that is cropping out even as I write this, and not only in the U.S.

            I am not a Marxist myself, but one who appreciates the wealth-creating potential of free markets and limited government. The Republican Party should do a better job in explaining supply-side economics and defending those aspects of conservation and environmentalism that are grounded in sound science and medicine. And responsible historians and journalists should remind the public that Hitler’s base consisted of right-wing populists*: the petit-bourgeoisie, including small producers (peasants and artisans), unemployed and unorganized workers, civil servants, and everyone who profited from the expropriation of “Jewish” property and “Jewish” jobs. It is a canard of the Marxist-Leninist Left** that fascism is the triumph of finance capital and big business, though, to be sure, elements of those groups (in addition to monarchists or the army, including the Freikorps) served in coalition with Hitler until he kicked out such officials as von Neurath and Schacht, 1936-38.

            *I am not forgetting the left-wing populism of the Strasser brothers. But that militant anti-bourgeois wing of the Party was decimated in the Night of the Long Knives.
            ** Lenin was influenced by the populist antisemite J. A. Hobson, see http://clarespark.com/2009/09/18/bad-sex-in-the-new-york-times/. How many students today can describe the debate between Rosa Luxemburg and Lenin or Stalin about imperialism and backward societies?

             
          • kohana posted at 1:16 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco, your current knowledge of archaeology and of ancient history is sorely lacking. This isn't from the "bible" but from acknowledged historical facts of other civilizations of the periods involved. Nobody is talking of an Israelite "Empire" just that the Jews did live and flourish in the area for some 3000 years. Try wading through Josephus, a Jewish historian of the 1st century. Most Jews of the time hated him and considered him a traitor, however, he did write the history of the first several thousand years of the Jews. And you are wrong about the literacy of the Hebrews. One of the first commandments was to teach the laws to the children and all others, so mandatory schooling ensued. Most authorities agree the current alphabets were based upon Hebrew letters. One of the big problems other cultures had with the Jews was their literacy, and their ability to communicate with other Jews around the world. They were not part of the masses of illiterates.

            Really, folks need to bring themselves up to date on biblical facts being proven by archaeology. If you want to discuss the pros and cons if Israel you really need to be current on all facts of not only of their history but the histories of the countries surrounding them.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:04 pm on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328


            Really, Fact Finder? Getting your history from the bible?

            Supposedly, an Israelite empire flourished in the 10th century BC, during a time of temporary weakness of both Assyria and Egypt. Yet the fabled empire of David and Solomon remains just that: a fable, unsupported by any evidence – and empires normally leave a great deal of evidence. Archaeology is unequivocal: there was never the wealth, population, political cohesiveness, or literacy in the tiny settlement around Jerusalem to have ever dominated its more developed northern neighbours.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:42 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            mooseberryinn: "What can possibly go wrong?"

            Wife calls on the cellphone saying there is a wolf at the door dressed like a banker. Which way do you jump?

             
          • kohana posted at 11:06 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            To Mooseberryinn: A cold snap of 20 below zero?

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 10:27 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            After due consideration, I have decided to join the OWS protestors. This will save me a ton of money on groceries as someone is feeding those people. It will save me some cash on toilet paper as they apparently don't use any. I won't be billed for water used, or the place I set up my tent. I can get used to free pizza for a few weeks etc. heck, maybe somebody will even give me a sleeping bag! Now this is true american democracy. Free food, free water, free TP, free pizza, and a cool rowdy bunch to hang out with. What can possibly go wrong?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:25 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:36 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Quite the drama. Especially when you factor in the Palestinians, who are still trying to figure out how the British Colonialists were able to give their land away, in the 1930's and 1940's.

            Sadly, the neighborhood is made up of a lot of folks who subscribe to "Might is Right", and Defense Contractors and their Corporations make a fortune off the politics of it, then emulate Pontius Pilot and wash their hands. Great story tellers!

            HTC: You're the "Great Story Teller" this time.

            The fact is that, until the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW I, there never was a geopolitical entity nor an Arab state which occupied and claimed the area occupied by Israel today. This is easily proven by even a cursory examination of the history of that area.

            In fact, there's only one group who's historically occupied and claimed that area and that is the Jews who ruled that area from 1350 BC to 586 BC, before being conquered by the Babylonians. Israel once again governed that region from 538 BC to 168 BC, under Persian and Greco-Assyrian sovereignty, and again from 70 AD to 636 AD under Roman and Byzantine sovereignty.

            So we have a period of over 2000 years where the Jews ruled that area and there were no people known as "Palestinians."

            Even the Arabs publicly recognized the Jews' claim to that area in 1919, during the Allied peace Conference in Paris, to which representatives of the Arab Middle East, as well as the Jewish people were invited. At this conference, Emir (Crown Prince) Feisal, son of king Hussein (great grandfather of the present king Hussein of Jordan), who headed the Arab delegation, agreed that “Palestine” should be earmarked as the specific area in which Jewish sovereignty was to mature.

            He announced acceptance of the Balfour Declaration of November 2nd, 1917, and concluded an agreement with the World Zionist Organization, confirming that “all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantee of carrying into effect the British Government's Balfour Declaration”.

            These same sentiments were expressed by Emir Feisal in a letter dated March 3, 1919 to Prof. Felix Frankfurter, Justice of the United States Supreme Court: “Our deputation here in Paris is full acquainted with the proposals submitted by the Zionist organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as modest and proper. We will do our best, insofar as we are concerned, to help them through. We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home.”

            You might want to ask yourself how many other lies you've swallowed about the Israeli-"Palestinian" conflict.

             
          • kohana posted at 9:32 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Ah, into my mail box from Citizen Warrior, http://www.citizenwarrior.com/

            Which Emotional Strategies Influence Orthodox Muslims?
            Posted: 28 Oct 2011 02:34 PM PDT

            AL SIEBERT, author of Survivor Personality, said something interesting in his book, and I've been thinking about it for awhile now. The book is about what personality traits survivors hold in common. Siebert has studied survivors of POW camps, concentration camps, plane crashes, boats sinking, etc. He's made this study his life's work. Here's the quote, and then I'll tell you what I've been thinking:

            "Bob Mitchell, a marine who fought first on Bataan and later on Corregidor, told me that many of the POWs who gave up were unable to cope with the cruelty and hostility directed toward them by the guards. He said that many prisoners tried to influence the guards by feeling upset, expressing pain, pleading, or trying to win them over. When this didn't work, they had nothing left. Many gave up and died."

            Siebert's main quest with his research is to discover what survivors do that non-survivors do not do. In the case above, the non-survivors didn't change their strategy when they could see it wasn't working.
            Now here’s what I’ve been thinking people I know who don't want to believe Islam is a political and supremacist ideology are good-hearted people. They believe we should all just get along, that killing is a bad thing, and that even hurting someone is bad and it should never be done. They are kind to dogs. They recycle their trash so as not to make things harder for future generations, etc.

            I am overgeneralizing here, but I'm not too far off with this characterization. These good-hearted people don't want to believe there are millions of fundamentalist Muslims in the world who would like nothing better than to cut off their heads. It's unthinkable. Maybe these fundamentalists just need some clean water and enough to eat. Maybe they've been abused in the past. Maybe they just need to be understood.

            These are all perfectly good strategies for normal interactions between healthy people within a liberal democracy with a good police force and an overwhelming majority of law-abiding citizens.

            When you want to work out your differences with someone, and you have a disagreement or anger between you, it's a pretty good strategy to talk and try to come to some kind of mutually-acceptable compromise. That's one kind of strategy and it works very well in a particular context. The problem is, it doesn't work in every context, nor with every person.

            One of the traits Siebert found common among survivors is the ability and willingness to change strategies. Siebert discovered it is one of the most universal traits survivors have that non-survivors do not have: They are flexible enough to see the strategy they're using isn't working in a particular situation, and they're able to come up with something else.

            Those who can't do that in some situations die.

            Flexibility means being able to be kind in some circumstances, and
            cold-blooded in others if it is necessary. It means being able to be cooperative with some people, and more competitive or even hard-nosed with others if it seems necessary.

            A lack of flexibility means you'll run out of options for some situations.

            I think that's what is happening with at least some blind multiculturalists. They don't realize that the strategies they might normally employ do not work with someone who is hell-bent on murdering us all for no other reason than we're not Muslims.

            That kind of ruthlessness is hard to fathom for most people, I think, and multiculturalists seem even less willing to even entertain the possibility. They think there must be some other explanation. And because they think people can't really be that way, or that a large group of people or a religion can't be that way, they don't understand the why anyone would criticize Muslims.

            If you can’t understand the strength and intensity of the ruthlessness arrayed against western democracies, then you can't understand the need to defend against it.

            Those who can fully grasp the ruthless intentions of orthodox Muslims will recognize how profoundly indifferent they are to pleading, expressing pain, feeling upset, or trying to win them over with appeasements.

            We need to use some other strategy if we are to survive. My guess is that in a serious situation such as a concentration camp, the people who are now multiculturalists would be the kind of people who would die first. Peaceful, cooperative strategies don't work against ruthlessness, and those who aren't flexible enough to change their strategies are less likely to survive.

            Even with ample flexibility, ruthlessness is almost impossible to deal with successfully. I squirmed while I watched a Frontline program called Target America. It showed the clumsy, incompetent attempts of one American president after another trying to deal with Islamic terrorism.

            I said ruthlessness is almost impossible to deal with successfully, but that's not really true. Ruthless terrorists would be easy to deal with if you were willing to be equally ruthless yourself. But it is very difficult to deal with within the parameters of humanity and human rights.

            The jihadis, of course, are aware of the West's ethical restraints and so they tailor their strategies for us. Their strategies are carefully designed to put us in double-binds where we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. And where we make a horrible mistake no matter
            The most obvious response is against our code of ethics, and any other response is inadequate.

            You can watch the Frontline program online. It is painful to watch the presidents try (and fail) to deal with the jihadis' double-binds. The presidents just wanted the problem to go away. They were all seeking a short-term, quick-fix solutions, and refused to see this for what it is: A global, long-term strategy of millions of orthodox Muslims who will do anything to gain a political advantage, with the ultimate aim being something that to most westerners is unthinkable: An Islamic world.

            I like Western civilization. I like normal interactions between healthy people within a liberal democracy with a good police force and an overwhelming majority of law-abiding citizens. I like not having to settle differences with my fellow citizens with violence. But I hope the island of civilization within which we live our lives doesn't blind too many of us to the fact that there are still people in this world who think differently and that different strategies than we're used to may sometimes be required.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:18 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: The Constitution of these United States of America supposedly protects the right to peaceably assemble. The Constitution does NOT say “you have the right to peaceably assemble, as long as you receive permission from your local government.”

            HTC: Notice the use of the word "assemble" in the Constitution, rather than the word "occupy." As I said previously, SCOTUS has already long ago settled this matter. The protesters were allowed to "assemble" for quite some time, but now they're illegal occupiers of public AND private property which those who actually paid for that property have a right to use, free and unhindered by these encampments.

            Bronco: The accusation that the protesters don’t respect property rights is equally invalid.

            HTC: Say what!?

            Are you truly unaware of the fact that the OWS movement started in Zuccotti Park which is PRIVATE property? That the owners, Brookfield Properties, has asked them to leave and yet they refuse to do so?

            Are you also ignorant of the fact that the OWS Oakland group illegally occupied a bank and tried to shut it down?

            That's called CRIMINAL trespass, my friend.

            Brookfield Properties has been EXTREMELY patient with the OWS folks. Were I in their shoes, I'd demand that the police use whatever force was necessary to remove them from my property and prosecute them for criminal trespass. If the police refused to do so, I'd hire goons to do it.

            Respect for others' property is at the core of our founding principles and for most of this country's history you could even use deadly force to protect your property rights.

            Bronco: I believe that most of the people demonizing the occupiers are doing so because they do not wish to debate the issues.

            HTC: Yeah, right. Most of the OWS idiots don't even know what the real issues are, let alone are they capable of verbalizing a cogent argument for their cause.

            The only messages coming from them which are consistently recognizable are demands for the redistribution of the wealth, limits on corporate pay and profits, higher taxes on the 'rich', forgiveness of THEIR mortgage, credit card and student loan debt and public funding for free college educations and housing.

            That's the message of a socialist pig and I don't even need to debate it because it is completely un-American and unconstitutional.

             
          • kohana posted at 9:07 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Rob123 if you are going to discuss the subject of Israel please have your historical background correct. It was part of the Ottoman empire.

            The Break-up of the Ottoman Empire - Suite101.com: Online Magazine ...
            This article discusses the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, and the creation of independent nations in the Middle East between 1830 and 1948. One of those independent nations was supposed to be for the Jews, just as Lebanon was a Christian nation, and smaller than Israel, now taken over by the Muslims.

            There has always been Jews in that tiny strip of land, and by 1900 there were more Jews in Jerusalem than Muslims. In addition, from the 1800s the Jews had been purchasing land from the Caliphate who sold them swamps and deserts. The fact is, in 1948 when the English left and handed over all installations to the Arabs, there were 6 Arab nations aligned on the boarders to destroy her. They tried again in 1963, and again in the 1970s. Too bad they lost and in your honest opinion they should give back all land the gained from people who wish to destroy them? They did give back Sinai, they did give up Gaza and they did give up the west bank, and look at the results. World hatred because they didn't give it all up and go drown themselves in the sea.

            There was no such thing as the "Palestinians" until Yasser Arafat coined the term in 1959. The people in Israel are not "self-righteous" they are simply people who wish to survive and live in some semblance of peace. They will never have peace however, as there are still too many people, like yourself, who believe they stole the land, ceding territory will appease the Muslims, of whom have vowed time after time to destroy every last Jew on this planet.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:47 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Claus.....I think Romney is the best the Repubs can do......Huntsman is way too much IQ for sound bytes.

            I have a Sweat Shirt that says:

            I scre#ed you All
            _________________
            Picture of
            Bush
            _____________
            But thanks for blaming
            the black guy.

             
          • Claus posted at 8:10 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Claus Posts: 392

            I would like to see the Department of Education, Energy, HUD, and the ATF closed, and bureaucrats by the tens of thousands driven from DC. But we aren't like;y to get that from the likes of Perry, or a political neophyte like Citizen Cain, even if we could get one of them elected.
            Despite how we might rave about the great conservative uprising, it is still the squisey middle that will determine the election. Remember the electoral system anyone? Our best chance to win is with Romney, who would at least restore some integrity and decency to the corrupt pit of hell Washington has become. Romney, who is at least bright enough not to flush our national interests down the drain in favor of some faculty lounge, commie wet dream.
            As much as we taut Reagan as an arch conservative, many of his policies were right down the middle. Who was it that instituted abortion in California? Who was it that signed an amnesty for illegals? Who was it that increased federal spending, thankfully building up our military at a critical time?
            Bismarck said that politics is the art of the possible. I put to you that it is certainly possible that we will not be able to elect a Paul or a Cain or even a Perry (heaven forbid), and that it is highly likely that none of them would have the political skill or support to enact anything they promise.
            We can and should elect Romney, and put the Obamination out of Washington, along with is half-bright operatives and Republic wreckers. We cannot afford 4 more years of Obama. Our country is at stake.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:27 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            kohana: per your post......
            "We all felt it – it was innocent, pure and thoroughly decent. We were witness that day to an entire country believing in something again. Those young people outside the Shalit home were singing not only about Shalit, but about this land, this people, and about a future in which they still believe. Did you see them? "

            What is it about Jewish Folks writing about Jewish Folks that carries such an air of self-righteousness? As if every word was from G-d? As if "We got it! Sorry you don't.". Thank G-d their system is parliamentary, and only exists by forming coalitions amongst the diverse but Chosen, otherwise being surrounded by a billion people who read the 3rd Book would make them think about moving some place else.

            Quite the drama. Especially when you factor in the Palestinians, who are still trying to figure out how the British Colonialists were able to give their land away, in the 1930's and 1940's.

            Sadly, the neighborhood is made up of a lot of folks who subscribe to "Might is Right", and Defense Contractors and their Corporations make a fortune off the politics of it, then emulate Pontius Pilot and wash their hands. Great story tellers!

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:34 am on Sat, Oct 29, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: "So let me rephrase: The Right of Assembly does include a "right" to unlawfully occupy public or private land and anyone who claims otherwise is a fascist pig."
            ----------------------------------
            The Constitution of these United States of America supposedly protects the right to peaceably assemble. The Constitution does NOT say “you have the right to peaceably assemble, as long as you receive permission from your local government.” The Occupy protesters that are being arrested have mostly been charged with “disorderly conduct” and “protesting without a permit” though a few have been charged with assaulting police – the latter being a charge I do not condone.

            The accusation that the protesters don’t respect property rights is equally invalid. The protesters are protesting on public property and (in most locations) without a permit, which is their right; however, if the occupy protesters were to rent port-a-potties they would “need” a permit for the set-up. Protesters attempted to get porta-potties in least one city, and were denied. I’ve heard firsthand accounts that the protesters are being respectful of private property; as most businesses only allow customers to use the restrooms, the protesters are making purchases before using the restrooms.

            I wonder if the people leveling accusations against the occupy protesters would put the same accusations against protesters from the Civil Rights Movement or the anti-Vietnam War protesters?

            Peaceful, non-violent civil disobedience has been proven to bring about change. If you don’t believe me, look at the work of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. I believe that most of the people demonizing the occupiers are doing so because they do not wish to debate the issues. I don’t agree with everything the occupy groups want, just as I didn’t agree with a good bit of the “TEA” groups, however, I support free speech enough to support everyone’s right to protest and speak, even when I don’t agree.

            Hammeroftruth.com

             
          • kohana posted at 11:14 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            HTC: posted at 8:31 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            A lot of people in Israel agree with you, so there is now discussions about enacting a death penalty for acts of terrorism. Then there will be no scumbags left to trade. People like the woman who came to Israel with 10 kilos of explosives in her underwear to blow up the hospital that saved her life, would get the death she wished for but not take anyone else with her.

            I've been reading Clare Spark's blog, and learning a lot about why Israel always backs down in the face of threats from the USA. Ms. Spark is a historian and has done extensive research, and some of it on why there is so much antisemitism in the world. Most of it from a book named, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

            "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fraudulent, antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan for achieving global domination. It was first published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated internationally in the early part of the twentieth century. Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies which were distributed throughout the United States in the 1920s.

            Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were major proponents of the text: It was studied, as if factual, in German classrooms after the Nazi Party came to power in 1933, despite having been exposed as fraudulent years before. In the opinion of historian Norman Cohn, the Protocols was Hitler's primary justification for initiating the Holocaust — his "warrant for genocide."

            It is still widely available today, still presented, typically, as a genuine document, on the Internet and in print, in numerous languages."

            People believe this garbage because they want to, it gives excuses for their hatred, just as people believe Michael Moore's conspiracy theories that the government took out the trade center, they want to believe it, despite all proof to the contrary. These people hate our government, tho they know no better government. We have the best in the world even if it does get a little shaky now and then with clowns in control.

            Hopefully that will change with this next election. The more I hear about Cain the better I like him. Someone needs to discuss Islamism and history with him, or help him get more knowledgeable people around him. However, he isn't half as ignorant as Obama.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:55 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            "So let me rephrase: The Right of Assembly does include a "right" to unlawfully occupy public or private land and anyone who claims otherwise is a fascist pig."

            Oh, I understand where you are coming from. I'm just trying to decide if I should take a historic approach to your problem, like Storming the Bastille......or more of a Freudian approach, as in "Your one An*l Retentive guy!". But, back to the World Series. (-:

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:42 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Correction - that last line in my prior post should read:

            So let me rephrase: The Right of Assembly does NOT include a "right" to unlawfully occupy public or private land and anyone who claims otherwise is a fascist pig.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:41 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Whew....I thought maybe you had just abridged the Right of Assembly, and only people with Money and the ability to rent convention halls and motel rooms could still play along.

            HTC: SCOTUS has long ago made clear that the "right of assembly" does not include the right to illegally occupy private land and that such assemblies on public land are subject to reasonable limitations in order to permit others to utilize those facilities as well as to facilitate their maintenance, cleaning, etc.

            The OWS groups have been treated with far more patience and tolerance than required by SCOTUS and we long ago got their lame message which does not bear repeating by continued unlawful occupations.

            There is such a thing as the rule of law, my friend.

            So let me rephrase: The Right of Assembly does include a "right" to unlawfully occupy public or private land and anyone who claims otherwise is a fascist pig.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:31 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            kohana: Something else for you folks to think about, especially, Israel and Jew haters and bashers.

            HTC: Good letter - thanks for sharing it.

            I have long admired the Israeli peoples' ability to keep the faith and persist against their terrorist opponents, even in the face of sweltering global condemnation of their country and support of their terrorist neighbors.

            It takes a hardy people to survive in that environment.

            I have also long been embarrassed by our own government's continued calls for 'restraint' by Israel, every time that they've suffered more terrorist attacks. Our gross hypocrisy shines through every time we ask for that show of restraint because we all know, in our heart of hearts, that if we suffered such terrorist attacks on such a frequent basis, the vast majority of us would be demanding that our government completely annihilate that enemy once and for all.

            I do believe, however, that they made a big mistake in the negotiated hostage swap because they sent the message to their terrorist opponents that one Israeli captive is worth the release of 1500 terrorist scum. This scenario will repeat itself again and again until the Israelis refuse to negotiate with the enemy.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:21 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "There's only one group that would claim otherwise: left-wing fascists."

            And that's it?

            Ah, your just in your "City Slicker" Curly mode, sitting on your high horse, index finger raised, a laconic "One thing!" rolling off your lips. I get it...ha ha.

            Whew....I thought maybe you had just abridged the Right of Assembly, and only people with Money and the ability to rent convention halls and motel rooms could still play along.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:07 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            chamomile: An interesting addition to the Occupiers....

            HTC: You have confused our free speech rights with a perceived "right" to occupy public and private property, a "right" which is nowhere to be found in the Constitution.

            SCOTUS long ago ruled that the two are not the same.

            Protestors have no right to occupy private property, such as is being done by the Occupy Wall Street bunch nor do they have the right to occupy public property, thus denying their fellow citizens the right to free and unhindered enjoyment of that property which they helped to pay for.

            There's only one group that would claim otherwise: left-wing fascists.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:41 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15391515

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:29 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            chamomile: Um, maybe this makes sense to you but did you even look at the Business Insider article? I didn't see anything about protesting 'corporatism'...although, monopoly corporatism probably fits in there somewhere.

            HTC: Yes, I forced myself to read the entire Business Insider article, even though it was obvious after the first few paragraphs that it was just the typical progressive defense of OWS which bore little relationship to the signage, interviews, posts and demands of the protesters themselves.

            While the article didn't focus on "corporatism', the protesters own signs, interviews, posts and demands certainly mention it frequently. So I was responding to the actual protestations of many of the OWS participants, NOT the writer's false perceptions.

            chamomile: Saw a figure that in 2008, 700-some Billion dollars were spent on campaigns.

            HTC: Billion? You're talking nearly three-fourths of a trillion dollars. That's WAY off base.

            The actual figure for federal election spending in 2008 is much less, coming in at a little over $2B, with Obama accounting for the largest portion at nearly three-fourths of a billion dollars. Obama is the first and only major party presidential candidate to refuse public funds so that he would not be subject to FEC limits and that enabled him to outspend McCain 4-to-1; in other words, he is the first president who made it to the Oval Office funded almost entirely by assorted special interests, in particular the unions.

            chamomile: Let me start over...because I think you are missing a large part of the current situation with that as it is pretty apparent that nearly all of our elected officials are bought and paid for by huge corporate interests.

            HTC: You're the one who's missed the boat here. I clearly mentioned that corporatism exists and is enabled by the government sticking its nose in areas where it has no constitutional authority to do so AND, if the government returned to its few enumerated powers and responsibilities, corporate America would have no sway over elected officials because there wouldn't be anything those officials could do for them in return.

            Got it now?

            chamomile: The consequences of an extreme, call it 'constitutional', government cutback only hurts the people. The 'corporate' is in control and all that is left that is good they'd love to do away with. They are blindsiding you. To hear the pundits on the right talk about doing away with the EPA and minimum wage, federal education grants...well, you see 'smaller' government. They've been years in the process of convincing folks on the right that the government is the enemy. What I see, and thankfully many others, is corporate fascism.

            HTC: Corporate fascism? You've got to be kidding.

            Corporations have been unable to signficantly lower their tax and regulatory burden which is far higher than that of their foreign competitors, even those in the EU. They've not been able to eliminate or even weaken the NLRB, OSHA, nor the EPA. They still have an almost impossible time going after our own natural resources and are saddled with rapidly increasing labor costs which will take a BIG jump if ObamaCare lives long enough to fully kick in, and you claim we're living under "corporate facism?"

            That's so outrageously contrary to reality that it's positively ludicrous.

            You are correct, however, that there are many people who will be hurt if the government is forced back behind its Constitutional boundaries, as it needs to be to prevent our complete economic collapse - most especially those who've been feeding at the public trough.

            It's time to finally demand something of them instead of demanding even more from the minority of Americans who've been picking up the tab.

            As JFK famously said: "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country."

            It's definitely time for that 60% of dependent America to start doing for their country and the future of their progeny.

            chamomile: Wake up!!!!

            HTC: Hey, I'm not the one on chamomile.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:49 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: For I stole California from the Mexican land....

            HTC: We paid Mexico for that land and also forgave millions of dollars owed by the Mexican government to U.S. citizens, all as part of the negotiated settlement ending the Mexican-American war.

            It's worth noting that that war was initiated by Democratic president James K. Polk and opposed by many who eventually formed the Republican Party.

            Of course, Mexico has been invading California for the past 70+ years and now accounts for nearly 45% of its citizens. They've also received tens of billions of dollars of taxpayer-funded public assistance and education for their children, WITHOUT paying taxes into the system. They've also taken billions of dollars out of the California economy and sent it to Mexico.

            I'd say they won in the long run.

             
          • kohana posted at 4:31 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Something else for you folks to think about, especially, Israel and Jew haters and bashers.

            A Rediscovered Abundance of Goodness

            Posted By Daniel Gordis On October 28, 2011 @ 2:40 am Featured Articles, Uncategorized

            Mr. Prime Minister,

            Before the Shalit deal fades entirely from view, many of us are hoping that you have noticed what you unwittingly unleashed. I don’t mean the next wave of terror or the terrible decisions that Israel must make before the next kidnapping. We knew about those even before last week. But last Tuesday, all of us – those opposed as well as those in favor (and there were persuasive arguments on both sides) – rediscovered something magnificent about this country. It would be tragic if we returned to business as usual without pausing to take note.

            In addition to Gilad Shalit, we got one more thing in return that few of us could have expected; we got a reminder of the abundant goodness that still resides at the very core of this society. You could see it everywhere. Compare the speeches on our side, celebrating life and freedom, to the blood-thirsty Palestinian harangues calling for renewed terror and additional kidnappings. Compare the respectful restraint of our press to Shahira Amin’s immoral and abusive interview in Egypt. But more than anything, we saw this reservoir of goodness in the streets – in the people so moved that they could hide neither the tears in their eyes nor the lumps in their throats. We saw it in the throngs along the roads, people who wanted Shalit to know that they, too, celebrated his long overdue freedom. And we saw it in the hundreds of people in Mitzpe Hila who continued dancing long after he’d entered his house and closed the door.

            We all felt it – it was innocent, pure and thoroughly decent. We were witness that day to an entire country believing in something again. Those young people outside the Shalit home were singing not only about Shalit, but about this land, this people, and about a future in which they still believe. Did you see them? Women and men, religious and secular, dancing with abandon in celebration of freedom? Did you hear them singing anachnu ma’aminim benei ma’aminim …. “We’re believers, the children of believes, and we have no one on whom to depend, other than our Father in heaven”? You didn’t miss it, did you? Hundreds of people of all walks of Israeli life, proclaiming without hesitation their belief in something bigger than themselves?

            The reason that the trade was wildly popular, Mr. Prime Minister, wasn’t ultimately about Gilad Shalit. It was about Israel. About a country desperate to transcend the cynicism, that still wants to believe that it’s worth believing in. Shouldn’t we – and you – therefore ask ourselves what can we do next to justify people’s belief in this place? What will it take to make this a country that its citizens can love even when we’re not freeing a captive?

            How about if we start by eradicating evil? Take but one example and deal with it. There’s a small but vicious group of kids living over the Green Line who bring inestimable shame on the Jewish people. They burn mosques, tear down olive trees and sow fear everywhere – all with the implicit support of their rabbis. And they make many young Israelis deeply ashamed of this entire enterprise. Last week, you showed us that you do know how to take decisive action. So do it again. Rein them in. Arrest them. Cut off funding to their yeshivot.

            If you show this generation of Israelis that your government stands for goodness even when that means making tough domestic decisions, you’ll unleash a wave of Zionist passion like we haven’t felt here for a generation. It wouldn’t be any harder to do than what you just did, and it would actually do even more good for Israel than getting one soldier back.

            And beyond goodness, there’s also Jewishness. No, we shouldn’t make too much of that anachnu ma’aminim benei ma’aminim song, but admit – it’s not what you expect to see lots of secular people singing. Yet they did. Because this is a strange and wondrous country; not so deep down, even “non-religious” people aren’t “non-religious.” Just like their observant counterparts, they’re searching, struggling, yearning – and at moments like that, they know that the well from which they hope to draw their nourishment is a Jewish well.
            That’s why it was wonderful that you quoted from Isaiah (the Haftarah for Parashat Bereishit) in your speech. It was your suggestion, I hope, that at its core, this society must be decent, but it must also be Jewish. You know what the main problem with the summer’s Social Justice protests was? It wasn’t the naïve embrace of high school socialism, or the utter incoherence of the demands. It was the fact that there was simply nothing Jewish about their vision for Israel. Dafni Leef and her comrades could have given the same vacuous speeches at Occupy Wall Street. Or in Sweden, for that matter. Those inane speeches were testimony to the failure of our educational systems and of Israel’s religious leadership. The Yoram Kaniuk affair and the court’s willingness to let him declare himself “without religion” is a reflection not on him, but on the appallingly uninteresting variety of Judaism that the State has come to represent. Can you – or anyone else – name even one single powerful idea that’s come from any of Israel’s Chief Rabbis in the past decade or two? Me, neither.

            But lo and behold, it turns out that Israel’s young people still want to believe in something. We haven’t given them the tools to articulate it, but they still intuit that whatever we become, it’s got to be Jewish. So ride that wave, too, Mr. Prime Minister. What would it take to shape a country where the profundity at the core of Jewish tradition became once again the subject of discourse in our public square? Does Judaism in the twenty-first century suddenly have to become dull and backward, or can we restore the intellectual and moral excellence that once characterized it? Can you take this on, too? Appoint the right people? Build the right schools? Can you help make this a country encourages those young people now searching for Jewish moral moorings?

            For or against, hardly a single one of us is not thrilled that Gilad Shalit is home. He deserved his life back. But so, too, does this country. Shalit, hopefully, will now get better and stronger with each passing day. Israel must do the same. It needs to get better – we need to be honest about the evils lurking in our midst, and we must exorcise them. And we must become stronger, which we can do only by engaging with the roots that brought us back home in the first place.

            Can you do this? Many of us hope so. Because if this fails, it will in the long run have made no difference that Gilad Shalit came home. But if it succeeds, we might just come to see his liberation as the turning point in our collective return to believing in ourselves.

            Article printed from Daniel Gordis – Dispatches from an Anxious State: http://danielgordis.org
            URL to article: http://danielgordis.org/2011/10/28/a-rediscovered-abundance-of-goodness/


             
          • chamomile posted at 4:25 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            chamomile Posts: 11

            And Bill: If you bothered yourself with reading you'd know I was referring to the editor; who is either batpoop insane or thinks he's one of the 'exceptional ones' who doesn't care who suffers because of his arrogant misrepresentation of history and fact as long as it isn't him. What scares me the most is their use of religious extremists...
            http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicususa.com%2Fen%2Ffundamentalists-democracy&h=YAQFJmB-WAQECoVskyvCiqfwkw44tI0v9UL558lSi3O44lQ
            The new face of 'christianity' has more in common with al quada, however the heck you spell it, than Jesus. Call it Karma. Thanks for everything GW.

            Heads up!

            http://www.politicususa.com/en/right-smear-scott-olsen

            An interesting addition to the Occupiers:
            http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.addictinginfo.org%2F2011%2F10%2F28%2Fstrange-bedfellows-militias-exercise-their-second-amendment-rights-to-protect-occupy-phoenix%2F&h=8AQHShYEC

            Oh, and I see they did chase off the mayor. Separate incidents. My bad.


             
          • kohana posted at 4:21 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            I have a good friend in CA that owns 3 businesses. Her family is from China, her parents got out of Shanghai shortly before the Japanese invaded. She was born and raised in San Francisco. She lives in a small city in southern CA. She and her husband still have family in China and she went back to visit for the first time in 15 years. I would like to share part of her letter with you:

            Got home to tons of paperwork (3 stores x 2 weeks).

            Trip turned out better than I thought it would. The weather there was fantastic, compared to 90 degrees here. I was blown away by the number of people there, though. 15 years ago, it was much nicer... one could get a feel of how the emperors lived....it had a larger impact without the crowds of tourists and their tour guides waving flags. Without the crowds, you could picture the magnificence and decadence of the Forbidden City and the serenity of life at the Summer Palace much better. I felt bad that my sister-in-law and her husband did not get to experience that, as I did years ago. It was just a chaotic mess, with long lines and people shouting over loud-speakers.........however, they STILL felt that it was something they needed to see, at least once. My daughter had a ball taking pictures and if she can ever get through editing them all and loading them into the computer, maybe I’ll get to see them.

            Out of the 6 of us, I was the only one to get sick, of course. I caught a cold midway and coughed through the rest of the trip. Yes, the plane rides were horrible......and I counted 6 flights; visited 5 cities. I got to visit my dad’s younger sister (by 1 year) in Hong Kong; she’s 96....still looking good, but osteoporosis has hunched her back. She says she needs surgery, which they won’t do because of her age, and is now wearing Fentanyl patches for the pain. I was glad to be able to see her and promised her I’d go back if she has her 100th birthday.......but it worries me because she fell (6th time) while we were up in China. My dad always told me I was the most like her; we used to share clothes because we were the same size. She was widowed at an early age and doesn't have children. I have an unmarried cousin who lives in Hong Kong and luckily, she’s been able to take care of her during emergencies. It was nice hanging out with MY side of the family for a change, though that part of the trip was way too short.

            My husband got an eye infection..and I went to a pharmacy in China (bad move). I saw Ciprofloxacin Eye drops over the counter....I thought, wow....that costs $50 in the USA with doctor Rx...and this was $9....so I got it...but it was counterfeit....probably bought him a bottle of water...and his eye got worse until we went to Hong Kong. I was able to get him a Sulfacetamide Opth Oint in Hong Kong...they told me the rest of the stuff needed a prescription. Hong Kong’s a lot better; China promised them the same lifestyle for 50 years after 1997; I wonder how bad it’s going to get. I think the people there are pretty afraid of what will happen; already Hong Kong is inundated with tourists and it’s already got 7 million people. The subways were wall-to-wall people during rush hour....very interesting ...... and it made it so delightful and refreshing to come back here to our dull city. I really missed the bathrooms here (best in the world) and extra napkins. That sounds funny, but what I found out is this:

            Even though China is one of the top money-making countries in the world...the money is in the hands of the government. The tour guides all talked to me about how bad the average person is doing; there is no longer a middle class...only the rich or the very poor. People there don’t see that their country is doing well because they don’t feel it....they work and struggle all their lives....average is 50 years to earn enough to buy a flat (not a house there...a flat because that’s all you can get in a big city). The money is in the pockets of the government officials....so what happens is that the poor people are struggling and a simple thing as a napkin or toilet paper is so expensive that it gets stolen from public places. We had to bring our own everywhere we went.....packages of Kleenex and my daughter brought along toilet-seat covers. If we went to eat, sometimes they’d give us napkins at the restaurant...sometimes just one per meal....sometimes they would, but ONLY if they charged us for it. Funny story:....we got into San Francisco at 9pm Friday.....picked up the car from long-term parking...started driving home...stopped at Arby’s....and the guy gave me a handful of napkins.....that felt like getting a handful of money, I tell you. You don’t appreciate little things until they’re gone

             
          • chamomile posted at 4:10 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            chamomile Posts: 11

            Thanks Rob.

            lol HTC...unfortunately, comparing Iraq to Kenya is absurd. I've seen enough photos of blown up women, children and civilian Iraqis to see beyond that which those war criminals would like us to believe. Don't get me wrong, the previous policy of economic embargo were ineffectual and only hurt the innocent. That policy, seems to be based on the false assumption that someone like Saddam gave a crap whether his people were dying from lack of food or medicine. He certainly didn't go without. You might have done better to compare the situation to Libya...but that wouldn't work for you so well would it? Being a little familiar with the history I'd say that Iraq had more to do with the fact that after aiding Saddam Hussein to power, he didn't bend to the will of the US and certain, coughinterests...we've seen those photos of the criminals, Rumsfeld and Hussein back when they were chums. Another case of the obvious...maybe you just are looking to hard to find a truth that's really not hiding anywhere.

            Also want to add that the mayor left when she was told she'd have to wait in line if she wanted to address the crowd. Guess she thought she'd have some special preference. Truth.

            HTC: "What these ninnies in OWS who are protesting corporatism fail to understand is that the massive government which they and their fellow progressives have supported and which now directs almost every aspect of our lives and businesses is the only reason that corporatism even exists.

            If the government were forced back within its Constitutional boundaries, corporatism (with the exception of the military-industrial complex) could not exist."

            Um, maybe this makes sense to you but did you even look at the Business Insider article? I didn't see anything about protesting 'corporatism'...although, monopoly corporatism probably fits in there somewhere. Saw a figure that in 2008, 700-some Billion dollars were spent on campaigns.
            Let me start over...because I think you are missing a large part of the current situation with that as it is pretty apparent that nearly all of our elected officials are bought and paid for by huge corporate interests. (And I might add that these 'interests' don't seem to what anyone too 'bright' on the Republican spectrum... Ron Paul doesn't even want the job. I watched what I could stomach of the debates and that is just my impression. His body language, whiny 'we have to end these wars' appeals are just depressing, because much of what he stands for is legit. ) The consequences of an extreme, call it 'constitutional', government cutback only hurts the people. The 'corporate' is in control and all that is left that is good they'd love to do away with. They are blindsiding you. To hear the pundits on the right talk about doing away with the EPA and minimum wage, federal education grants...well, you see 'smaller' government. They've been years in the process of convincing folks on the right that the government is the enemy. What I see, and thankfully many others, is corporate fascism. As if the
            American public en mass isn't disillusioned, apathetic, numbed out, and dumbed down enough by yes, a pretty lame educational system that necessitates further education that guarantees enslavement to debt...as if that weren't enough. It would be easier if anyone knew what their plans were for our once great nation. Anyone? I do have a sneaking suspicion that those, such as our good editor, misguided tea partiers, etc, who are fighting their propaganda war would be the first to go if their vision should ever be complete. Wake up!!!!

             
          • kohana posted at 3:56 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Taking away their heat source is the better way of clearing OWS folks off public property. Another few weeks the bitter cold will clear the rest of them out, easier to clean up after them as well, raking up the frozen turds, etc.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 3:24 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            New York City Pulls the Plug on Zuccotti Park's Power
            AP, Adam Martin 4,302 Views 9:31 AM ET

            On this chilly Friday morning, New York City police and firefighters calmly walked into the Occupy Wall Street encampment and cleared out their electric generators and the fuel that runs them. New York has shied away from forceful crackdowns on the Occupy Wall Street encampment at Zuccotti park ever since a planned Oct. 14 cleaning threatened to turn chaotic, and this early morning sweep didn't turn violent. But with a wet cold weather forecast for this weekend, protesters grumbled loudly during this 40-degree morning. The city has said it was worried about the encampment turning into a fire trap with gasoline generators. Protesters say they're using old cooking oil for biodiesel fuel, not gasoline, to power electronics, lights, and heaters. In a video feed of the crackdown on Friday, police and firefighters said all fuel and generators had to go.

            New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg defended the move in his official Twitter stream: "The gasoline & generators in Zuccotti Park posed a real threat of fire or explosion, particularly given the congested conditions," NYCMayorsOffice tweeted. Then later, "It’s illegal to store/use generators & fuel if it threatens public safety, so FDNY informed protestors that those items must be removed." Protesters filmed in the encampment's live feed pointed out that police and firefighters on the ground had also switched their terminology from "gasoline" to fuel. Some video from the stream:


            Oddly, as the city changed its tactic to put pressure on demonstrators' power supply, it backed off another winter-preparation tactic it had previously banned: Tents. "Tents can stay, so long as [park owner] Brookfield [Office Properties] doesn't complain, says @mikebloomberg," tweeted Capital New York reporter Azi Paybarah. The city had used a ban on tents in all its parks as a way to keep the protesters from becoming too entrenched, but they've been popping up anyway of late, and police now say they're waiting for Brookfield to say something before they remove them.

            Bloomberg has been hard to pin down on exactly what he wants to do about the protesters. He previously said they could stay indefinitely, but recently suggested a crackdown may be imminent. "I think part of it has probably to do with the weather," he told the Wall Street Journal earlier this month.

             
          • Bronco posted at 2:22 pm on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Phil Ochs

            Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans
            At the end of the early British war
            The young land started growing
            The young blood started flowing
            But I ain't marchin' anymore

            For I've killed my share of Indians
            In a thousand different fights
            I was there at the Little Big Horn
            I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
            But I ain't marchin' anymore

            chorus)
            It's always the old to lead us to the war
            It's always the young to fall
            Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
            Tell me is it worth it all

            For I stole California from the Mexican land
            Fought in the bloody Civil War
            Yes I even killed my brothers
            And so many others But I ain't marchin' anymore

            For I marched to the battles of the German trench
            In a war that was bound to end all wars
            Oh I must have killed a million men
            And now they want me back again
            But I ain't marchin' anymore

            (chorus)

            For I flew the final mission in the Japanese sky
            Set off the mighty mushroom roar
            When I saw the cities burning I knew that I was learning
            That I ain't marchin' anymore

            Now the labor leader's screamin'
            when they close the missile plants,
            United Fruit screams at the Cuban shore,
            Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason,"
            Call it "Love" or call it "Reason,"
            But I ain't marchin' any more,
            No I ain't marchin' any more

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:46 am on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: Good response.....keep the fire burning and Sisyphus's Rock moving uphill. I'm root'en for you, just not as loudly as I'm root'en for the implied consciousness that might be present amongst the majority of OWSers. Interesting times.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:09 am on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: In my own little, quaint, lovely world: Maintenance, Repair, Replacement (buy or lease), aesthetic upgrades, size and quality of Account Receivables plus 'carry or sell to bank', tax ramifications of 'profit' versus reinvestment, etc........

            HTC: Of course, those are additional potential sources of funds which could be used instead to increase workers' total compensation but it's a losing game to steal from them for long and many, such as maintenance or repair, are temporary expenses and can't be counted upon to provide additional funding in subsequent quarters; therefore, they're not a reliable source of funding for that purpose.

            The simple fact remains that the business' tax and regulatory burden represent a larger and more predictable source from which to draw additional funding for workers' compensation, if one could get those burdens reduced.

            Rob123: Any solutions, beside taking an Ax to a bunch of government agencies? Or do the solutions one comes up with define one's political stance? I'm a moderate with patience.....et tu, Tigre?

            HTC: Ruling out taking an Axe to much of government spending and bureaucracy, much of which vastly exceeds government's Constitutional bounds, makes as much sense as deciding to live with a little bit of cancer rather than aiming for its complete elimination.

            Such "solutions" may seem to be "moderate" but such moderation is no virtue when it is our liberty that remains the victim.

            So call me a "radical" and a "traitor", as many did our Founders, for I insist upon the return to Constitutionally limited government and real personal liberty.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:19 am on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Quan Chased from Occupy Oakland Rally
            Mayor takes refuge in City Hall after attempting to speak; new tent city begins to take shape
            By Shoshana Walter on October 28, 2011 - 1:27 a.m. PDT
            The Bay Citizen

            Oakland Mayor Jean Quan tried unsuccessfully to address Occupy Oakland late Thursday night.

            Mayor Jean Quan, who approved the removal by force of Occupy Oakland this week, apologized Thursday, even as protesters chased her from a rally and defied her requests not to camp by erecting 30 tents, a childcare center, a library and a small garden.

            Quan was greeted with cries of “Go home!” and “Citizen’s Arrest” when she attempted to address hundreds of protesters gathered near City Hall late Thursday evening. The mayor retreated into the building after some demonstrators rushed at her, refusing to let her speak, witnesses said.

            An hour earlier, Quan, who has been battered with criticism over Tuesday’s raid and violent aftermath, released a statement in which she directly addressed the protesters.

            “I am deeply saddened about the outcome on Tuesday,” Quan said, according to the statement. “It was not what anyone hoped for, ultimately it was my responsibility, and I apologize for what happened.”

            A video was later posted on the mayor's Facebook page showing Quan reading the statement from her office; noise from the Occupy Oakland rally can be heard intermittently in the background.

            Some of the protesters said they supported Quan and expressed disappointment that she had not been able to speak.

            “I would have liked to hear what she had to say,” said Elias Welsh, whose 75-year-old father was arrested during the Tuesday morning raid. “If we disagree with it, we’ll defy it. But we should at least hear what she has to say.”

            But many treated the mayor, a longtime activist, with open contempt.

            For most of Thursday, Quan wavered over whether to address protesters at Occupy Oakland's daily general assembly. She told friends and aides that she planned on attending the proceedings at 6:30 p.m.

            Quan finally appeared at Frank H. Ogawa Plaza around 10:30 p.m., just as the general assembly was ending. The mayor, apparently alone, walked up one of the wheelchair ramps toward the amphitheater stage.

            By the time she reached the platform, protesters had realized who she was and surrounded her, according to witnesses. Some screamed epithets, including “b*tch.”

            Quan quickly retreated up the steps of city hall, trailed by jeers. She disappeared into the mayor’s office. The lights remained on until at least 11:30 p.m. but it was unclear whether Quan was inside.

            “Don’t just come out here demanding the mic,” a protester who identified himself as Darren said after Quan had left. “Innocent people got hurt over what you do.”

            Oakland resident Alexandria Thompson said Quan would have no influence over the protesters.

            “Once you have a movement like this, you can’t stop it,” Thompson said. “The whole world is sympathizing with what’s happening here. She’s not the mayor people thought she would be.”

            In her statement, Quan issued a list of “requests” to the protesters. In addition to direct communication, allowing for access to emergency personnel and maintaining safe conditions, the mayor asked the protesters “not to camp overnight.”

            But dozens of people ignored her. On Wednesday, protesters pulled down a chain-link fence surrounding the lawn area that was the site of the previous encampment. By Thursday, the fence had been repurposed as a geometric work of art, and the contours of another tent city had begun to take shape.

            The new Occupy settlement appears certain to grow: Protesters served chickpeas and rice from heated vats Thursday night and added to a posted list of needed supplies, including additional tents, portable toilets, tables, first aid kits, batteries, tarps, sleeping bags and food.

            In many ways, the protesters – not the city – appear to be dictating events. As some members of Occupy Oakland began to repopulate the plaza, they said that Quan would be allowed to speak, as long as she stood on line like everybody else.

            “The camp says anyone can come down and speak to us in a truly democratic fashion,” said Adam Jordan, before Quan appeared. “If she’s not coming out, we’re not coming in.”

            Other protesters told City Hall officials Thursday morning that interim Police Chief Howard Jordan would also be welcome to speak, if he came without his uniform.

            Quan has continued to face harsh criticism in response to Tuesday's raid, even from her closest allies, and has been portrayed as tentative and out of touch. The mayor was in Washington D.C. at the time of the raid; when she returned later that night, she phoned City Hall staffers and even reporters for information about the violence raging in the center of her city.

            On Wednesday, Quan assumed full control of the city's emergency operations center, where she directed police response to that night's protest, according to officers who were also in the room.

            Josie Camacho, the executive director of the Alameda Labor Council, and her longtime friend and unpaid legal advisor Dan Siegel, both denounced Quan after police shut down the encampment. Siegel said Wednesday he was considering resigning.

            But after a series of meetings Thursday, Camacho, Siegel, and others again appeared to support Quan. Siegel said Thursday he has no plans to resign.

            “We told her, if we let this movement continue, we will have a lot of pride for stepping out there,” Camacho said. “And we will have your back.”

            Quan now appears to be aligning herself – and by extension, the city – with the movement. Earlier Thursday, she apologized to Scott Olsen, an Iraq war veteran who suffered a head injury that left him critically wounded during Tuesday night's protest, and encouraged him to speak with police.

            “We are a nation in crisis,” Quan said in her statement. “Oakland more than most cities faces budget cuts, unemployment and foreclosures. We are also a Progressive city. And as a long-time civil rights activist and union organizer I want my City to support the movement."

            According to Siegel and Camacho, Quan is considering ways to allow the protesters to set up camp in public spaces, with the assurance that health and safety conditions would be met, and that city health workers, fire and police would be allowed to provide services and perform inspections. If protesters remained in tents past 10 p.m., the mayor’s office said they would likely receive citations, but would not be arrested.

            “We can really envision down the road that we’re building this movement,” Camacho said. “We’re allowing people to stay where they want to stay. When do you see homeless and students and families come together in a shared space? Isn’t that the way this society is supposed to be?”

            Later, when asked if Quan would give protesters an ultimatum, Siegel responded: “I don’t think the protesters are interested in being told what to do.”

             
          • jennydoe posted at 8:23 am on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            Pete posted at 5:34 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.
            FYI....Jean Quan, the Mayor of Oakland is a Democrat.
            --------------
            as evidenced by an actual apology....
            tatement by Oakland, California, Mayor Jean Quan on Wednesday's police action against Occupy Oakland protesters:

            We support the goals of the Occupy Wall Street movement: we have high levels of unemployment and we have high levels of foreclosure that makes Oakland part of the 99% too. We are a progressive city and tolerant of many opinions. We may not always agree, but we all have a right to be heard.

            I want to thank everyone for the peaceful demonstration at Frank Ogawa Park tonight, and thank the city employees who worked hard to clean up the plaza so that all activities can continue including Occupy Wall Street. We have decided to have a minimal police presence at the plaza for the short term and build a community effort to improve communications and dialogue with the demonstrators.

            99% of our officers stayed professional during difficult and dangerous circumstances as did some of the demonstrators who dissuaded other protestors from vandalizing downtown and for helping to keep the demonstrations peaceful. For the most part, demonstrations over the past two weeks have been peaceful. We hope they continue to be so.

            I want to express our deepest concern for all of those who were injured last night, and we are committed to ensuring this does not happen again. Investigations of certain incidents are underway and I will personally monitor them.

            We understand and recognize the impact this event has had on the community and acknowledge what has happened. We cannot change the past, but we are committed to doing better.

            Most of us are part of the 99%, and understand the spirit of the Occupy Wall Street Movement. We are committed to honoring their free speech right.

            Finally, we understand the demonstrators want to meet with me and Chief Jordan. We welcome open dialogue with representatives of Occupy Wall Street members, and we are willing to meet with them as soon as possible.

            http://www.readersupportednews.org/news-section2/316-20/8116-focus-oakland-mayor-jean-quans-about-face

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:01 am on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            here is your occupy Kalispell video -

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LxD_z3lnV8&feature=channel_video_title

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:01 am on Fri, Oct 28, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "So, if I want to pay my workers more, I have to take the needed funds from somewhere else."

            (-: Your list is mighty short? This wouldn't be a Political list for Republicans trying to garner votes, as opposed to a longer list for Students/non-business folks trying to understand Business?

            In my own little, quaint, lovely world: Maintenance, Repair, Replacement (buy or lease), aesthetic upgrades, size and quality of Account Receivables plus 'carry or sell to bank', tax ramifications of 'profit' versus reinvestment, etc.........all seem to matter too. BUT, Regulatory Burden is a pain in the as#! The filling out of forms tracking one's daily activities for various agencies is VERY burdensome. The Non-Tax forms seem more to do with Corporations cheaply running a business ("Great Productivity" screams their Quarterly Report) who discover that they have a leaking tank when someone downstream complains about their funny tasting water. In the previous weeks or months, no one picked up on the discrepancy between deliveries and usage-sales. So the Feds come up with 'One shoe fits all' in order to force the big corporations to pay attention like the little guy who couldn't afford such a stupid business model in the first place; YET has to fill out all the forms like the Big Corporations, in the name of "fairness".
            Whining is fun, eh HTC? Any solutions, beside taking an Ax to a bunch of government agencies? Or do the solutions one comes up with define one's political stance? I'm a moderate with patience.....et tu, Tigre?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:30 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            kohana: You know very well that profit is after all of the cost of doing business is accounted for, including fees, taxes and health care. I have owned and operated a business.

            HTC: That's exactly my point, kohana. Since profit is the difference between all expenses, including taxes, and gross receipts, and there's a limit to what the customer will pay (as you noted), the only way to ensure a reasonable profit is to control expenses. Since government's burden is beyond the businessman's control, the only expenses he can realistically manage are labor costs and, to some small degree, material costs which are now largely beyond his control as well.

            So, if I want to pay my workers more, I have to take the needed funds from somewhere else. The easiest and largest source of such funds would be the tax and regulatory burden imposed by government, but all too often the worker demands that employers be taxed even more in the mistaken belief that he/she is getting something for nothing when all they're really doing is paying those taxes through the higher cost of goods/services and lower wages/benefits.

            The man/woman who rails against "greedy" employers and then votes for people who continue to tax and regulate those employers is his/her own worst enemy and doesn't even realize it.

            kohana: However, I rented a place once for 9 years, took care of all interior maintenance and upkeep, kept beautiful landscaped yards that I designed. The landlord raised my rent every year to greater than my pay raises and finally priced me out. Even when Proposition 13 went into effect and the property owners got a kickback, he raised my rent.

            HTC: I assume that was in California, perhaps the Bay Area, where regional economics have long defied logic, at least, until recently?

            Some landlords don't appreciate a good tenant but many more are like me and do and will even keep rent below market for a good tenant to encourage them to stay and to thank them for the upkeep and maintenance they do.

            As for Prop 13, I assume you realize that property owners didn't get any "kickbacks" from that law but merely saw their property tax increases substantially slowed to a more reasonable level.

            I was living and working in CA when that proposition was passed and was glad to see it enacted, not so much because of its effect on my property taxes, but because I'd already seen two elderly couples in my neighborhood, both WW II veterans (yes, husband AND wife both) lose their homes because they couldn't keep up with the outrageous property tax increases on their limited retirement incomes.

            When one can so readily lose their home to the tax man, we're only kidding ourselves that we're free and not actually slaves to the state.

            kohana: There are some businesses that are getting payback for their greed, and I don't feel a bit sorry for them. Like Netflix and B of A.

            HTC: That's how markets work when we let them.

            I was initially in favor of the TARP bailouts, having been convinced like so many others of the "too big to fail" argument; however, since having the luxury of time to analyze that situation in greater depth and ponder what might have happened if we hadn't done TARP, I am now convinced that TARP was a big mistake.

            We should have let those institutions and their foolish investors take a bath. Sure there would have been a ripple effect that would likely have touched most of us to some degree, but it would have sent the message that stupidity and greed kills fortunes and sometimes even people.

            Instead, we've told the Street that there are no consequences for bad judgment, which is the same message that the welfare state has sent to its beneficiaries, with the same result in both cases: They won't change their behavior and will be coming back for more.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:29 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Pete: "The Matter, Forme and Power of a Common Wealth Ecclesiasticall and Civil"

            Har-Har......but lets not fight over It.

             
          • kohana posted at 3:27 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            For HTC: you know very well that profit is after all of the cost of doing business is accounted for, including fees, taxes and health care. I have owned and operated a business.

            However, I rented a place once for 9 years, took care of all interior maintenance and upkeep, kept beautiful landscaped yards that I designed. The landlord raised my rent every year to greater than my pay raises and finally priced me out. Even when Proposition 13 went into effect and the property owners got a kickback, he raised my rent.

            I kept track of the place and watched what happened to it, and in the next 2 years 6 tenants moveed in and out, the yard trashed, and just last week, my daughter drove by and the place is now in a depressed neighborhood and nearly a slum. Front and back yards just weeds. She didn't get a look at the interior.

            There are some businesses that are getting payback for their greed, and I don't feel a bit sorry for them. Like Netflix and B of A.
            And at the rate our economy is going, there aren't going to be enough people to buy all those toys at the high prices being charged. As for myself, when this computer crashes, I'll use the one at the library once a week.

             
          • barak posted at 3:02 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            barak Posts: 11

            Frank, your article is a joke.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:52 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Pete: "..... sat in class as a Jesuit fed it to you through the filter of his Liberation Theology."

            Actually, it was the Holy Cross priests who I studied under, who had a distinctly different take on reality than Jesuits, be it Liberation Theology or the Inquisition. The Holy Cross order is primarily involved with education in the classical 'University' setting and mode. But they ain't Jesuits nor Dominicans.....gGod forbid!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:57 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            kohana: It was of being paid an honest living wage, for a full days work. If you are being charged more for your rent that you are making, because a landlord can, I think it is wrong. If there is no place else to live and you cannot afford to buy a house you are at the mercy of a slumlord.

            A reasonable profit from the sale of a product after overhead expenses, not billions of profit from the middle class into the pockets of the elite. Banks that make billions, pay their CEOs millions in bonuses, plus their millions in salaries is sad. It comes out of the middle and lower class pockets.

            HTC: What constitutes an "honest living wage"? How would it be calculated?

            As a business owner, I set wages based upon what I can afford to pay relative to what I can get my customers to pay for my product. Naturally, I try to take into account what are prevailing wages for those positions elsewhere within my segment of U.S. industry, but what I can actually afford and still keep the business healthy and sustainable is the primary consideration.

            Competing with my employees for a share of those gross receipts is the U.S. government who imposes a roughly 20% surtax on me because of regulatory burdens, taxes my business and my business property and places numerous expectations upon me such as providing health insurance for my employees which is rising five to seven times faster than I could possibly increase my prices to my customers.

            Yet, I'm the one somehow at fault rather than the government which makes it impossible for me to pay them more or provide them with better benefits.

            During the first 10 years of my life, most kids had a stay-at-home-mom and their families enjoyed a comfortable middle-class existence on just one income; today, two incomes can barely provide the same standard of living and, then, only because we're buying the things we need from China and other low labor-overhead producers.

            What changed? For starters, back then the typical middle class family had a total household tax burden of 9%. Today it is 47%, so one person is working just to pay the household's taxes. Wage growth has slowed as well, thanks to competitive pressure from foreign producers who not only have lower labor costs but also substantially lower tax and regulatory burdens.

            The enemy isn't corporate America - it's Uncle Sam and those who don't see that and take action to reign him in, deserve their spiral into the ground.

            I am also a landlord and have several rental properties. The rent I charge is also a simple business calculation based upon what I need to cover all my expenses and still produce a reasonable ROI. I also try to temper that with consideration for current economic conditions and sometimes barely make a profit during times like these.

            It has been my experience that most people who complain about employers being "cheap" or landlords charging too much, have no experience at either business or managing rental properties.

            kohana: Obviously nobody else agrees with me, not even the OWS morons. They want something for nothing, the 1% wants to keep as much as they can, the rest of us just wait. It always amazes me that the very wealth can give millions in charity to build a new school, give computers to the children in Africa, but can't manage to pay our American workers a living wage, and the minimum wage isn't it.

            HTC: Where is most of corporate America getting its wealth? The answer, obviously, is from the American consumer who can purchase their goods and services ONLY because employers pay them enough to be able to do so. And no one is holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to buy these things. Just as obviously, they are purchasing these goods and services because they want them and see reasonable value for what they're being asked to pay.

            Certainly there are some who possess little in the way of skills and can barely support themselves on the wages their contributions justify, but whose fault is that? Why didn't they finish high school and learn a trade or go to college to study something more highly valued in the corporate world? Why did they have children when they can barely support themselves?

            Is it business' job to pay them more than their contribution financially allows? That seems to be what the left is demanding.

            And I really hope that you're not suggesting that government determine, as Obama has suggested, just how much is enough for top earners. That concept has no place in a country where men are supposedly free to "pursue happiness" as they define it.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:23 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            who new: So when do we stop imposing our morality on other nations, and not meddle in their internal affairs? What clear national interest do we have in Uganda, other than we find their atrocities abhorrent?

            HTC: Let me be clear that I wasn't defending Bush's handling of the Iraq situation. I was merely pointing out a flaming double-standard on the part of the left. Libya, Uganda, violating Pakistan's sovereignty, et al are all OK when a progressive president does it; just not when a Republican does it.

             
          • Pete posted at 1:18 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 7:00 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            The difference is that I read, "The Matter, Forme and Power of a Common Wealth Ecclesiasticall and Civil", myself while you probably sat in class as a Jesuit fed it to you through the filter of his Liberation Theology.

             
          • who new posted at 12:52 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            who new Posts: 367

            HTC: “But when Bush rescues millions of Iraqis from a brutal dictator…”

            So when do we stop imposing our morality on other nations, and not meddle in their internal affairs? What clear national interest do we have in Uganda, other than we find their atrocities abhorrent?

            “No one nation has a right to sit in judgment over another.”
            “We wish not to meddle with the internal affairs of any country, nor with the general affairs of Europe.”
            “I am for free commerce with all nations, political connection with none, and little or no diplomatic establishment.”
            “We have produced proofs, from the most enlightened and approved writers on the subject, that a neutral nation must, in all things relating to the war, observe an exact impartiality towards the parties.”

            Thomas Jefferson

             
          • kohana posted at 12:27 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Forgot to post Clare Spark's Blog URL:
            http://clarespark.com/

            BTW, having already admitted my great mistake in voting for Obama, I
            would like to clarify my idea of "redistributed wealth" which was not getting something for nothing.

            It was of being paid an honest living wage, for a full days work. If you are being charged more for your rent that you are making, because a landlord can, I think it is wrong. If there is no place else to live and you cannot afford to buy a house you are at the mercy of a slumlord.

            A reasonable profit from the sale of a product after overhead expenses, not billions of profit from the middle class into the pockets of the elite. Banks that make billions, pay their CEOs millions in bonuses, plus their millions in salaries is sad. It comes out of the middle and lower class pockets.

            Those 1% have long since earned back their start up costs and profits from such, and the continuing fleecing of us is wrong. Obviously nobody else agrees with me, not even the OWS morons. They want something for nothing, the 1% wants to keep as much as they can, the rest of us just wait. It always amazes me that the very wealth can give millions in charity to build a new school, give computers to the children in Africa, but can't manage to pay our American workers a living wage, and the minimum wage isn't it.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 12:24 pm on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            kohana: "Oh stop with the bickering and insulting each other, you're just pi$$ing in the wind, and I'm ashamed of you."

            "But mom! The winds to my back, so it's OK ?" (-:

            Actually, I agree. I'll try.

             
          • kohana posted at 11:59 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Oh stop with the bickering and insulting each other, you're just pi$$ing in the wind, and I'm ashamed of you.

            The OWS are mostly ignorant, stupid people. Here is something of which might be of more interest:

            Hunting Captain Ahab: Psychological Warfare And the Melville Revival. [Paperback 2006] Clare L. Spark (Author)

            In this provocative and vigorously argued interdisciplinary study of the development of institutional censorship, Clare Spark explores the complexities of 20th-century American cultural politics through the protagonists of the Melville Revival. She investigates closely the history of the Revival and its key critics, who manipulated Melville's life and writings in the service of their own particular social and political agendas. Although often boldly conjectural and speculative, Spark's assertions are based on her meticulous and thorough exploration of either newly opened or previously unexplored archival materials of leading Melville scholars.

            In addressing the distinction between what she calls the radical and conservative Enlightenment, Spark makes her way through Melville's often confusing and contradictory texts and examines the disputes within Melville scholarship, which often center on the mesmerizing figure of Ahab as either a democratic hero or a totalitarian dictator, corresponding to the rival epistemologies of modern society.

            The Joy of Melville, January 22, 2002
            By Malcolm D. Magee, ISCC (Lansing, Mi. USA)
            This review is from: Hunting Captain Ahab: Psychological Warfare and the Melville Revival (Hardcover)
            The reader will find reading Clare Spark's book on Melville an event to be remembered. While some in the literary establishment may balk at the conclusions those not vested in the outcome will find this book a joy to read. It is written in a manner that is enlightening to both novices and seasoned lovers of Melville. The book is sweeping in its detail, meticulous in its research and beautiful in its language.
            "Hunting Captain Ahab" is of course about Melville, it is also about institutional power. This work poses a challenge to the literary establishment which they must either try to answer or ignore. Spark's extensive archival research provides us with a glimpse into the politics of literature and literary criticism. While other scholars have projected themselves or their political agendas upon Melville, Spark's Melville emerges as a fully human, complex and uncategorizable person. Melville scholarship with its varied, vested and complex agendas is also exposed. No agenda remains unchallenged.
            Eventually someone will recategorize Melville, new agendas will replace the old, but until then this moving and beautifully written work will stand as a monument to freedom of thought in the pursuit of truth. I highly recommend this book.

            kohana here: This book is not in a single library in the State of Montana, not even in the university libraries.


             
          • Bronco posted at 11:17 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: But when Bush rescues millions of Iraqis from a brutal dictator, he's a war-monger and baby-killer.
            --------------------
            How gGod-like.

            HTC: "Is that what passes for brilliance in your family?"
            ---------------------
            Now you need to insult my family.

            Pay attention, folks. This man is degenerating right before our eyes. And he's under the delusion that he's HONORABLE.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:03 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "HTC: But when Bush rescues millions of Iraqis from a brutal dictator, he's a war-monger and baby-killer."

            Oh please! A majority of hard core Republicans no longer believe that! And only 34% of returning Iraqi Veterans!

            And surely you are up to speed on the Mission of the 100 Special Forces troops sent in? Their primary mission is to break up-kill-make ineffective the psycho-terrorists kidnapping children, getting them hooked on drugs, arming them, and then not giving them more drugs unless they kill certain people. It is absolutely sick, and has been going on for a decade. Of course, no Oil in Uganda? So no hurry.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:20 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Pete posted at 6:27 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011

            HTC: As you probably know, a deal has now been reached to try to save Greece and it calls for EU banks to take a 50% write-down on Grecian bonds they currently hold. Many believe that this will only buy Greece some time and isn't going to prevent an eventual meltdown of Greece's finances.

            Then there's Ireland, Italy, Portugal, and Spain to be dealt with next. The losses will become staggering.

            There's no way this isn't going to cause major economic ripples for us as well and it may well end up triggering a global depression.

            And all because we've let the democratic-socialists run things for the last several decades.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:52 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            OH WILBER: For your listening pleasure: Ron Paul and Frank Zappa on the Danger of American Fascism

            HTC: Ron Paul made an observation which bears consideration by all of us when he referred to the gradual rise of government-big business "corporatism" which he illustrated by references to the military-industrial complex and the government-medical complex. He could have easily added the government-energy complex, government-finance complex, government-union complex and the government-education complex to that list.

            What all of these "complexes" have in common is the federal government as a key partner; if you eliminated government's participation, these corporate sectors would have no power within government and they would succeed as corporate entities only as long as they provided goods/services that people wanted and at a fair price that they were willing to pay.

            What these ninnies in OWS who are protesting corporatism fail to understand is that the massive government which they and their fellow progressives have supported and which now directs almost every aspect of our lives and businesses is the only reason that corporatism even exists.

            If the government were forced back within its Constitutional boundaries, corporatism (with the exception of the military-industrial complex) could not exist.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:32 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            chamomile: Three quarters of a million starving refugees in the region, and it is near impossible to get aid to them. So now you can add 'filthy humanitarian' to the list of names you have for our president...the fearful illiterate won't know any different.

            HTC: But when Bush rescues millions of Iraqis from a brutal dictator, he's a war-monger and baby-killer.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:22 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "The video does suggest that one officer did fire a flash-bang directly into the crowd coming to the Marine's aid. There no doubt will be an investigation and, if it was deliberate, there should be consequences for that officer."

            Well said!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:14 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            chamomile: This next clip is actually pretty horrifying considering the kid on the ground is a Marine, two time Iraq veteran, now hospitalized with a skull fracture, swelling on the brain and in a medically induced coma...his condition is quite grave at the moment.

            HTC: I hope the Marine pulls through OK; however, these individuals were lawfully ordered to disperse and chose to ignore that lawful order. Even though "nonlethal" force was used to disperse the crowd, there is still the possibility of serious injury or death because there is no such thing as totally nonlethal force. Even bean bags and rubber bullets can kill. "Nonlethal" devices merely minimize the risk of serious injury or death.

            Once an order to disperse is issued, if one chooses to not comply, one is then committing a crime and the law clearly states that one is then responsible for whatever happens to their person or property after the fact; in other words, this Marine bears the responsibility for his injuries.

            The video does suggest that one officer did fire a flash-bang directly into the crowd coming to the Marine's aid. There no doubt will be an investigation and, if it was deliberate, there should be consequences for that officer.

            Sadly, this was all so unnecessary because studies over decades have shown that public sympathy, if it can be earned, is quickly gained in one or two days time, particularly if the protests occur simultaneously across the country, they're peaceful and clean up after themselves. These one or two day protests can be repeated a few times for increased effectiveness.

            But these prolonged protests resulting in the occupation of public or private property, usually with significant sanitation and trash issues and even property damage have been found to actually be counterproductive with the general population and usually produce only resentment, not support for the protesters' cause.

            They needed to go home.


             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:03 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            jennydoe posted at 7:35 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            (-: Thank you.....poor bell39 doesn't get it.
            __________________________________________________
            HTC: "Class warfare has been the main campaign strategy of the Democratic Party since LBJ."

            And nobody else has ever done such a thing!
            For example, the 1% who OWS Offices, and have the VIX Index up into the ionosphere this morning, with Commodities following along, over the 'possible' EU Debt-Banking fix, are operating under the Best Practices Act of Rational Human Beings concerned with the plight of the un and underemployed; and in no way is this a big Kick to the Shins of anyone who is NOT smart enough to be anorexic and riding a bicycle. As you know and repeat often, Poor people are Poor because they made bad decisions. And the 1% in the OWS Offices are doing their best to trickle a little down, in their self serving little scenario of how best to deal with 'general glut'.

            Thanks for helping me understand......I'd love to go over to your house and kiss you on the lips!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:24 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Ah, now here's a cogent perspective...

            HTC: Cogent? You're kidding, right?

            First this moron claims that the protesters are protesting 'corruption' on Wall Street even though most of their signs and demands focus on the redistribution of wealth, the forgiveness of THEIR debt (no matter how freely they took on that debt), "eating the rich" and even the end of the banking system.

            This guy can't get it even when he's surrounded by a sea of slogans focused on everything BUT actual corruption.

            But he really cracked me up with this statement: "The idea that masses of people suddenly discovered a deep-seated animus/envy toward the rich – after keeping it strategically hidden for decades – is crazy."

            "Strategically hidden"?

            Class warfare has been the main campaign strategy of the Democratic Party since LBJ. Obama openly ran on a promise of redistributing the wealth (and YOU voted for him!) and these idiots in OWS voted for him because of that promise.

            This has been brewing for decades and is the harvest of what the Democrats have sown. It's coming to a head now, thanks to three years of continued misery as Obama and his party have successfully done everything needed to stave off an economic recovery that had already begun when he was sworn in.

            Even interviews with the few who did have signs complaining about 'corruption' on Wall Street showed that most of those individuals didn't even know what bonds or equities were or what a "spread" was or even the basics of how the banking system worked.

            In fact, many of them stated that 'corruption' was the interest rate that banks were charging even though they're near historic lows. So what the he// would they know about 'corruption'?

            Even the author's insistence that Wall Street was "bailed out" overlooks the fact that those funds were paid back with interest. He writes about TARP as though the banks got 'free' money from taxpayers.

            His whole piece reads like the typical progressive rant on these subjects, yet you call it "cogent."

            And you still insist that you're not a progressive?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:54 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: I voted for Obama because he wasn't Republican (Like Bush...remember Bush?).

            HTC: You always had the options of either not voting for POTUS or writing in a candidate; instead, you thought it was better to send a flaming socialist to the White House.

            Is that what passes for brilliance in your family?

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:35 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            bill39 posted at 6:14 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.
            -------------------
            So rob's been telling us all along his voting status, and you're telling me he's a liar? Wow.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:28 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            JBSTONE posted at 5:53 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.
            ---------

            ACORN had the nerve to ask my wife if she was pregnant, and when she said no, said she "must really just enjoy her food".
            ACORN scratched up a bunch of my original vinyl and then brushed it off by claiming CDs are better anyway
            ACORN is the reason that DirecTV might drop FX.
            I felt this pain and found A CORN on my foot.
            ACORN forced Netflix to raise their rates and bungled the creation of Qwikster
            ACORN offered to buy me a beer at the bar last night, and when it was my turn to buy a round, ordered an 18 year old single malt scotch.
            ACORN keeps replacing the batteries in my remote controls with dead ones!
            ACORN drank the last cup of coffee at the office and did not make a new pot
            ACORN told me it wasn't going to rain yesterday so i didn't bring an umbrella to work with me. well needless to say, that it was pouring on me the whole way home. and when i got home, ACORN was........
            ACORN totally backed up the toilet and didn't plunge it.
            When Tony La Russa called the bullpen to put in Jason Motte in game 5, ACORN answered the phone and sent out Lance Lynn
            ACORN convinced me to get the chick-flick on our movie night, then fell asleep during the first 10 minutes.
            ACORN raped my sister and gave me a pay cut
            ACORN is responsible for the death of Amy Winehouse
            ACORN puts the milk carton back EMPTY
            ACORN broke into my garage and filled it with diseased squirrels that got sick all over my car
            ACORN! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them!
            ACORN told me they made me the perfect turkey sammich, but the turkey was a little dry. THE TURKEY WAS A LITTLE DRY!
            ACORN hit me over the head and put salt in my beer.
            ACORN makes Battlefield 3 crash on my computer every 10 minutes
            ACORN "borrowed" my car and brought it back with a massive dent in the door. Not to mention ACORN didn't refill the gas tank like I asked it to!
            ACORN was the reason Rebecca Black's "Friday" was created.
            ACORN is the real reason "Firefly" got canceled!
            ACORN sent me a hot cocoa sampler box.
            ACORN wrote the rootkit for SONY CDs.
            ACORN killed Batman's parents
            ACORN caused the dinosaurs to go extinct.
            ACORN touches me at night.
            ACORN keeps putting laxatives in the rec room coffee.
            ACORN went out to get a gallon of milk and never came back.
            ACORN left one cube in the ice tray.
            ACORN lied about the condom.
            ACORN is just preparing for his final battle with his mortal enemy - SQUIRREL
            ACORN told King Joffrey to behead Eddard Stark
            ACORN dumped in my blue jeans.......And in my litterbox. And on my police car.
            ACORN wrote the sixth season of LOST.
            ACORN neglected to harmonize the various statisticals like and such.
            ACORN molested me while I was in Catholic school.
            ACORN tricked Herman Cain into not paying his taxes.
            ACORN lied about the WMDs.
            You know the old saying -- From tiny ACORNS, might socialist revolutions grow.
            ACRON gets in the "15 items or fewer" line at the grocery store with like 25 items. And then it writes out a check to pay for it.
            ACORN divided by zero
            ACORN left the barely-literate comments on that article in an attempt to make FOX News readers look dumb.
            ACORN just introduced monthly debit card fees.
            ACORN totally abuses the "take a penny, leave a penny" tray.
            ACORN fell off the oak tree in my back yard and landed on my roof, leaving tannic acid stains that are difficult to remove.
            ACORN introduced John Lennon to Yoko Ono.
            ACORN gave Herman Cain's campaign manager his first cigarette.
            ACORN came unarmed. This time.
            ACORN helped make the 1% richer by screwing over the 99%
            ACORN found Jesus, then reported him to INS.............................................................................

            unnamed sources are great! ACORN made them that way.


             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:00 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Pete posted at 6:39 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            "I also wouldn't prosecute the parent who shot your sorry azz for killing their kid in a car accident..."
            What part of Hobbe's "Leviathan" did you sleep through? Have HTC explain it to you.

             
          • Pete posted at 6:39 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 6:13 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Good grief man...you are one confused individual and you're martyr complex is out of control. Sheesh...what part of, "I wouldn't have stopped you in the first place..." Don't you understand?

            BTW...how many times do you think judges have heard some fool say, "There was no traffic that day, wide open road, otherwise I wouldn't have been doing it."

             
          • Pete posted at 6:27 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Euro crisis explained. :-)

            http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150860012110261

             
          • bill39 posted at 6:14 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            bill39 Posts: 1039

            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:57 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.
            Rob voted for him because Palin was "scary."

            bill: I dont think so, he voted for him only because he is a democrat, he didnt vote against Palin, he voted FOR Obama. Useful idiot? I voted against Obama because I heard and beleived he was the most liberal of all senators. As for wilbur, I think he is just a rob ot, and the thing is nothing we say will make them start thinking for themselves, it's easier to let the PARTY do their thinking, it'll never happen.

            Bronco posted at 9:49 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.
            I voted for Obama because he wasn't Republican

            bill: ?

            chamomile posted at 10:30 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.
            Honestly, I don't know what to think.

            bill: I've noticed there are very few marching orders from the dnc on this matter.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:13 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Pete posted at 5:43 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Spin it into the negative all you want, Pete. However, there was no traffic that day, wide open road, otherwise I wouldn't have been doing it. That is how Libertarian works. Your take is Hobbesian.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 6:09 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            "made sense to vote for Obama" ????? uh, no. no way. and it makes even less sense now that we know he's a communist and a liar.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:48 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco posted at 7:00 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Who's we? You have a Penn in your pocket?

             
          • Pete posted at 5:43 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob..."Heck, I've even imagined you as a Royal Canadian Mounted Police type of guy, similar to the one who pulled me over on Canadian Highway #3 last summer after breaking his radar at 135MPH, and after doing a document check. reality check, and car safety check, said "Nice Car! Slow down!" and let me go. Pete, I'm afraid, would still have me locked up."

            You forget my libertarian bent? I wouldn't have stopped you in the first place...of course I also wouldn't prosecute the parent who shot your sorry azz for killing their kid in a car accident because you were more interested in your jollies than in the safety of others. See how that works?


             
          • Pete posted at 5:34 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            FYI....Jean Quan, the Mayor of Oakland is a Democrat.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:21 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            "HTC: So, even though Sarah was only the VP candidate on the GOP ticket, you thought it made sense to vote for Obama ......"

            What part of "YES, I did!" don't you get? And right now, 75% of the Republican Presidential Candidates put me right back into the same position.

            And knowing your comments over the past couple of years concerning your motivations for voting for certain individuals, how do you reconcile your buddy Pete's statement: " Nope. In this country we vote FOR people and then we have to live with that vote. ". I realize you have him securely within your ideological tent, and certainly wouldn't want to criticize him or risk any confrontational dialogue with him, but maybe you could muster a 'Truth to Power' moment and explain your votes over the years? Pete seems to have missed those insights?

            Heck, I've even imagined you as a Royal Canadian Mounted Police type of guy, similar to the one who pulled me over on Canadian Highway #3 last summer after breaking his radar at 135MPH, and after doing a document check. reality check, and car safety check, said "Nice Car! Slow down!" and let me go. Pete, I'm afraid, would still have me locked up.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 5:13 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            What? "a new painful era of self-reliance"? Oh no! How will those poor souls in the parks around Wall St. survive? Who will feed them? Who will pick up their trash and crap? Who will lead them and tell them what to say and think? The ACORN folks? obama? Hey, isn't that his old job? "community organizer"? He is qualified for that.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:27 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            chamomile posted.......Good posts, and thank you. Sadly, I should warn you to prepare thyself for an onslaught of negative attacks by the resident Right Wing Chickenhawks.....They seem to define themselves by pointing out towards 'the other' and cursing the perceived flaws; then slapping each other on the back saying such brilliant things as "good one!" to each other.

            Scott Olsen, member of Veterans for Peace
            and Iraq Veterans
            Against the War and a Marine Corps veteran of two tours in Iraq, who was
            shot in the head last night by Oakland police,
            is in critical
            condition with a skull fracture and swelling of the brain. Meanwhile,
            outrage
            against police violence and Mayor Jean Quan, already facing a recall
            election, is growing. Her Facebook page here.
            Live coverage and more from
            Oakland here.

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

             
          • chamomile posted at 1:07 am on Thu, Oct 27, 2011.

            chamomile Posts: 11

            "The axis today is not liberal and conservative, the axis is constructive-destructive, and you've cast your lot with the destructive people." Steve Jobs to Rupert Murdoch

            http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

            It's really quite simple to understand.

            This next clip is actually pretty horrifying considering the kid on the ground is a Marine, two time Iraq veteran, now hospitalized with a skull fracture, swelling on the brain and in a medically induced coma...his condition is quite grave at the moment.
            http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DL9O3o-7OvIY%26feature%3Dfeedu&h=oAQEfkNb_AQHSL_mqDskAfcTIPnvNPkkAs9PpOoPG4zd16w
            You can say what you will about their rights to the encampment. Why did they have to raid the camp at 5 am? And as an aside, I was up all night watching various tweets and videos. I didn't see any violence from the campers; they weren't even chanting and yelling like you see at the other places. Mostly just trying to get away from the gas. Somebody said that, since Oakland is known for violence they figured it was a good place to start...counting on the campers to retaliate. (Thus the movement gets discredited and they can go on to do it everywhere.) The protesters I've heard from via facebook and twitter are all dedicated to peace; and are often exhorting one another to stay calm in the face of provocation. You are flat out wrong to say otherwise; but no worries...truth prevails.

            This is about the gvmt asking Google to censor videos of police brutality:
            http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Ftransparencyreport%2Fgovernmentrequests%2F&h=rAQFMixw9AQHtyvsVcIpv_wAs-GDz5Xwuzy1-FLtXNM5ihw

            Matt Taibbi, for Rolling Stone. He has been investigating Wall Street for some time, you can read all his articles here.
            http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rollingstone.com%2Fpolitics%2Fblogs%2Ftaibblog%2Fowss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025&h=xAQHUtzVU

            Just another example...ya'll know about the drone exhibit blogger who rushed the doors and made a commotion; another 'conservative' blogger. (No doubt some of those crazy anti-semites were plants as well..)
            http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rawstory.com%2Frs%2F2011%2F10%2F26%2Fconservative-blogger-gives-out-free-bongs-to-embarrass-protesters%2F&h=QAQEiMfbs

            "Fox news breaks with reality and goes all Red Dawn to Smear Occupy Wall Street"
            http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicususa.com%2Fen%2Ffox-news-red-army-ows&h=1AQH6-bCsAQHh6p0qfcUl9Ew_uiLU6y_jfTVBGDRrFTsVvA

            Lastly, Glenn Greenwald on Democracy Now, talking about his book : With Liberty and Justice for Some: How the Law is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful.

            http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/26/glenn_greenwald_on_occupy_wall_street

            http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/26/glenn_greenwald_on_two_tiered_us

            and a stand out quote:
            " Of course, basic to political science and the American founding and human nature is that people cannot operate and exercise power without checks, or they’ll inevitably abuse it."

            Now, Eric Schneiderman wants to investigate but as Greenwald put it:
            "They need him and all attorneys general to sign on to a deal that would allow Wall Street banks essentially to immunize themselves forever from all damages from the mortgage fraud that they systematically perpetrated on the country in the court for what is essentially a woefully inadequate check of cost of doing business. "....
            Tell me again, who exactly are the anarchists?


             
          • chamomile posted at 10:30 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            chamomile Posts: 11

            Here's a little something everyone will enjoy (per Poe's law:)

            http://youtu.be/bgec9WX21ik

            Laughter is good. Came across this in my reading and thought of you, Mr. Frank.

            “Those who can make you believe in absurdities; can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire

            Honestly, I don't know what to think. Perhaps it is ink poisoning? I've heard that stuff can be toxic in large amounts; not unlike your editorials. I really don't mean offense. I prefer to think you are delusional, rather than the alternative...that you are deliberately misleading people for some reason; I hate to think what. Unless your purse-strings are at stake. After all, we are in the midst of having the great opportunity to witness the lengths to which some go to protect the money. Let us hope they back down gracefully; while everyone knows they will never go away; but maybe we can get our country back just a little. I do fear that federal reserve audit, don't you? Not thinking they've left much but bones for the good old USA to pick; and you have the gall to call the Occupiers anarchotalitarians. (like that? I just made it up, but it's probably been done ...).
            Quite a brilliant game being played on everyone...while the nation bickers back and forth. Oh, the patience of the players is admirable. Especially that Murdoch fellow. (Wonder why we hear so little about his little scandal on the MSM...it was a hit with the British.) Speaking of, someone keeps asking about Uganda, and coincidently, I just came across this on a wonderful sight, Invisible Children.
            http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.invisiblechildren.com%2F2011%2F10%2Fsusan-rice-on-the-rachel-maddow-show-discussing-the-lra%2F%3Ffb_ref%3D.TqijNP3EBNQ.like%26fb_source%3Dprofile_oneline&h=RAQHQE_KzAQGmcpJDqstHiakomkRisZe6afHKn5brdsBGXg

            Ms. Rice talks about the LRA...you know that supposedly "Christian" army that according to Limbaugh are being unjustly persecuted. (Does anyone else think he laughs all the way to the bank at the simplemindedness of his audience? I am almost certain of it.) Um, well...in case you missed it or are a passer by, they are pretty evil. That is evidenced by their actions: wiping out villages, raping women, kidnapping children...
            Wikipedia says " Since the LRA first started fighting in 1987 they may have forced well over 10,000 boys and girls into combat, often killing family, neighbors and school teachers in the process.[43]" According to this, they like to use children because they are 'easy to replace.'

            On October 14, 2011, Rush Limbaugh, a political commentator, originally questioned the U.S. move against the LRA on the grounds that "Lord's Resistance Army are Christians. They are fighting the Muslims in Sudan. And Obama has sent troops, United States troops to remove them from the battlefield, which means kill them." "So that’s a new war, a hundred troops to wipe out Christians in Sudan, Uganda." Later, Limbaugh stated that he would research the group as he was made aware of accusations of their atrocities.[63] Contrary to this assertion, however, he later allowed the show's written transcript to be posted on his website under the title "Obama Invades Uganda, Targets Christians".

            Why is it acceptable to lie outright? And all the faithful listeners are all riled up because Obama the scary Kenyan is coming for them next. Ridiculous!
            I don't like war, but I can tell you one thing I can appreciate is the tidiness, may I even say deftness of our recent military policy. At least that is only what I've seen reported; and granted, none of this would be in the open if it weren't for Wikileaks. These are Special Forces, "a hundred boots on the ground" who will "fire if fired upon." Hardly another "war"...and I'd *really* like to know when these rightwingers got so touchy-feely about a little bloodshed? Is it that there may be an ulterior motive...Three quarters of a million starving refugees in the region, and it is near impossible to get aid to them. So now you can add 'filthy humanitarian' to the list of names you have for our president...the fearful illiterate won't know any different.

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:56 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Ah, now here's a cogent perspective:

            http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:49 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: "Bronco and Rob123 are understandably silent because they voted for this tyrant; Rob voted for him because Palin was "scary.""
            -------------------------------------
            I'm silent because I haven't read or heard anything about it except from my Right Wing sources here in this room.
            I voted for Obama because he wasn't Republican (Like Bush...remember Bush?).
            And he wasn't in his mid-seventies.
            And because, if he died of old age (in his seventies), Sarah Palin would become Dominatrix in Chief.
            I lived in Alaska for 20-years. Wasilla was always full of extremists and if they elected her mayor...'nuff said for me.
            Yeah, McCain's still kicking, but he hasn't been POTUS for these past years either. You can see how Obama has aged. That process would have put John in his grave by now. Imagine the First Family if that happened.
            As far as your imbecilic line "Any reasonable, informed person who loves this country would find Obama to be one he// of a lot scarier" goes, I can only quote some condescending basstard here in the room: "You're an idiot."
            The Republicans have nothing to offer. Ron Paul is the only candidate who has earned my respect and possibly my vote. When Pat Robertson, an extremely narrow-minded clown says things like this against the GOP, well, I don't want any of these fanatics running my country:

            “I believe it was Lyndon Johnson that said, ‘Don’t these people realize if they push me over to an extreme position I’ll lose the election? And I’m the one who will be supporting what they want but they’re going to make it so I can’t win.’ Those people in the Republican primary have got to lay off of this stuff. They’re forcing their leaders, the frontrunners, into positions that will mean they lose the general election… You appeal to the narrow base and they’ll applaud the daylights out of what you’re saying and then you hit the general election and they say ‘no way’ and then the Democrat, whoever it is, is going to just play these statements to the hilt. They’ve got to stop this! It’s just so counterproductive.”

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:57 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            bill39: Good question. I was wondering the same thing.

            HTC: They're also being VERY silent about Obama's executive order which dramatically reduces student loan payments and dramatically increases loan forgiveness, WITHOUT Congressional action.

            He clearly has NO constitutional authority to do this and everyone who respects that document should be calling for his impeachment.

            Can you imagine the outrage they'd be expressing if Bush had done this? Or if loan forgiveness had been extended to small businesses with SBA loans?

            Bronco and Rob123 are understandably silent because they voted for this tyrant; Rob voted for him because Palin was "scary."

            Any reasonable, informed person who loves this country would find Obama to be one he// of a lot scarier.

            On the other hand, OH WILBER, who clearly lacks any horse sense whatsoever, has indicated he'll vote for him again. I guess OH WILBER has no idea what the Constitution says or why it's important.

             
          • bill39 posted at 7:19 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            bill39 Posts: 1039

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:20 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.
            Why is the MSM silent about Obama now getting us into Uganda, even as Libya begins its descent into an Islamic state?


            bill: Good question. I was wondering the same thing.

            MT_foundation posted at 5:36 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.
            Oh Frank, it's just boring now.....

            bill: What do you want him to write about, the attributes of socialism?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:12 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Sitter in Chief
            Barack Obama and the infantilization of America.
            By James Taranto

            Breaking from the great American journalistic tradition of speaking truth to power, the San Francisco Chronicle publishes this cutesy puff piece on the most powerful man in the world: "President Obama spent only a few hours in San Francisco on Tuesday, but he took just seconds to prove once again why he's the baby whisperer." It seems that when the president arrived at the airport, he "spotted 6-month-old Josie Knight, who was crying while being held by her mother, Gina Odom, 37, of Oakland."

            Obama heroically took "the squalling infant into his arms" and repeated, "It's OK," until she calmed down. "Obama bounced gently and held her for about 10 seconds before flashing a smile and returning her to Odom."

            But this isn't just a harmless human-interest story about a baby-kissing pol. It's a metaphor.

            Here's ABC News, reporting on the speech the president gave in Fog City: "At a million-dollar San Francisco fundraiser today, President Obama warned his recession-battered supporters that if he loses the 2012 election it could herald a new, painful era of self-reliance in America."

            Oh no! Horror of horrors! Obama is the only thing standing between us and having to rely on ourselves! And do you know what they call people who rely on themselves?

            Adults.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:08 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: In a nutshell, I was a John McCain guy until Sarah got on the ticket, then I wavered and tried to see who she was, then decided NO WAY! SCARY!

            HTC: So, even though Sarah was only the VP candidate on the GOP ticket, you thought it made sense to vote for Obama who is and always has been a flaming socialist raised by communists, had no executive experience whatsoever, voted "present" on 80+% of the votes during his time as a Senator in an attempt to hide his ideology and selected the nutty uncle in the attic, Joe Biden, for his VP.

            Looks like you had a serious brain fart in the voting booth.

             
          • Bronco posted at 7:00 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Pete: Obviously you consider "idiot" a comparable rejoinder to me calling you a "progressive" ....looks like we've found something to agree on.

            ---------------
            But Pete, I said I didn't fully agree with HTC when he said "You're an idiot." We both agree with some of Hitler's political policies, that doesn't mean we're Nazis.

             
          • Pete posted at 6:19 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco posted at 5:12 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011

            Obviously you consider "idiot" a comparable rejoinder to me calling you a "progressive" ....looks like we've found something to agree on.

             
          • Pete posted at 6:08 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob..."Wrong.....however, Biden is merely not very smart. Sarah is a nut case, and unstable, IMHO."

            Nope. In this country we vote FOR people and then we have to live with that vote. This ain't the parliamentary system. Thanks for helping give us Obama...its been awesome.

            As to Biden's sanity...you must not be paying attention to his sound bites lately.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:56 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob..."So, Bronco is unable to grow, change his position, see things in a different light, etc.?"

            Sure...I just don't see much evidence of that.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:53 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            From the tiny Acorn the mighty presidency doth grow...........

            posted at 4:05 pm on October 26, 2011 by Allahpundit

            http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/26/fun-peter-schiff-confronts-occupy-wall-street-protesters/

            Via MRC TV, enjoy as a card-carrying one-percenter braves the Tupperware containers filled with urine at Zuccotti Park to pose the timeless question, “I’m employing 150 people. How many people do you employ?”

            Actually, according to Fox News’s piece today about ACORN’s hand in organizing OWS marches and fundraising, the revolution employs quite a few people:

            ***Sources said NYCC [the group formerly known as New York's chapter of ACORN] has hired about 100 former ACORN-affiliated staff members from other cities – paying some of them $100 a day – to attend and support Occupy Wall Street. Dozens of New York homeless people recruited from shelters are also being paid to support the protests, at the rate of $10 an hour, the sources said…

            Multiple sources said NYCC is also using cash donations through canvassing efforts in New York’s Harlem and Washington Heights neighborhoods for union-backed campaigns to fund the Wall Street protests…***

            “They give contributions because we say if they do we can fix things – whatever specific problem they’re having in their area, housing, schools, whatever … then we spend the contributions paying staff to be at the protests all day, every day. That’s where these contributions – the community’s money – is going,” the source said.

            “They’re doing the same stuff now that got ACORN in trouble to begin with. And yes, we’re still ACORN, there is a still a national ACORN.”

            One woman who was recruited from a homeless shelter to protest and then canvass as part of a campaign ostensibly aimed at home foreclosures told Fox, “I get the money and then the money is being used for Occupy Wall Street—to pay for all of it, for supplies, food, transportation, salaries, for everything … all that money is going to pay for the protests downtown and that’s just messed up. It’s just wrong.” So in case you were wondering how they can afford the new Port-a-Potties, there you go. The bad news: Per Fox’s sources, unwitting people are being duped into chipping in under false pretenses. The good news: The era of Tupperware containers filled with urine might soon, mercifully, be over.

            ***Exit quotation: “They’re telling people who leave prison to go to Zuccotti Park.”***

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:27 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Take a hard LEFT at Wall Street and this is what you get.........language warning.....


            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQX4u-W7uyQ

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:12 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Rob, I think the reason, er, excuse they have to label us progressive is we don't agree with them on several issues, or, we disagree with how to solve them.

            And Pete, let me quote your friend, HTC: "You're an idiot." I don't fully agree with him, by the way.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:05 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            OH WILBER posted at 3:09 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Hard to say......however, I've got 5+ miles of walking in, and 45 minutes on my various exercise machines, and my 6 acre yard is ready for winter with all my summer tools and toys tucked away in such a way that I can easily get to the winter tools and toys. If the wind doesn't blow this winter, when the snow melts it will be ready to mow, no raking needed.
            Why do you ask?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:35 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Pete posted at 3:02 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            So, Bronco is unable to grow, change his position, see things in a different light, etc.? Bronco and I used to argue a lot.......but I liked the guy! And still do.

            You, however,

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:20 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Pete: Wrong.....however, Biden is merely not very smart. Sarah is a nut case, and unstable, IMHO.

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 3:09 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            I wonder how progressively fat all of your rear ends are at the end of the day?

             
          • Pete posted at 3:05 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 2:34 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            No...you voted FOR Biden.

             
          • Pete posted at 3:02 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco...beside the obvious? You forget that I have been here for quite awhile...I remember when you were loudly, proudly, and vociferously singing the liberal/progressive tune. Of course that was when Obama was in his ascendency and you were caught up in the fervor. I guess its not in vogue these days so you've changed your tune...however your words have stayed the same and they make you a progressive by any reasonable standard.

            I'm sure Frank could dig up the exact quotes if they haven't been purged?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:51 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574


            http://www.critfc.org/wana/condit.html

            Good idea! May the river heal!

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:34 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "progressives" Plural? I voted AGAINST Sarah Palin in 2008......If you had been a participant back then, you could have followed along in the 2 cents. In a nutshell, I was a John McCain guy until Sarah got on the ticket, then I wavered and tried to see who she was, then decided NO WAY! SCARY!

            Culturally, I'm as Liberal as one can be without touching anarchy. Economically, I live and vote Conservative. However, I do not swing axes at fiscal problems; I would turn our defense department back into a DEFENSE dept., put Congress and the President on Social Security when they retire, and on medicare; have all lobbyists fully disclose every penny and every meeting 24/7. The Unions would be banned from Government employees. Everybody else could join one, if they want. But first, they would have to answer: WHY? Then, and only then, would I start on limiting entitlements to retirees and such, if needed to save the Nation.

            And with more people in Prison in the U.S. than Russia and India combined, I would start asking some serious questions. He//s Bells, even the OWS people want to put people in Prison! Nuts! What's wrong with this country?

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 2:19 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            What came first? The Chicken Hawk or HTC? Or was it Dennis Rehberg?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:58 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Pete, I challenge you to prove that I am a progressive. Or Rob for that matter.

            HTC: Both of you just vote for progressives like Obama but you're not actually progressives.

            Yeah, right. Your vote IS your voice.

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:46 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Pete, I challenge you to prove that I am a progressive. Or Rob for that matter.

             
          • Pete posted at 12:13 pm on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco...we're independents - we leave the group activities to you progressives.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:11 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Pete, JB, HTC, when you guys are together, which one of you do you sit on?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:49 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "Why is the MSM silent about Obama now getting us into Uganda, even as Libya begins its descent into an Islamic state?"

            Not sure if this is Bait Car or Cash Cab? I think I'll take a walk, and hope you explain it all by the time I return.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:26 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Obama steps up re-election appeals to his base, as he craps all over the Constitution:

            Obama to Announce Student Loan Relief Plan
            Published October 26, 2011 | Associated Press

            Millions of student loan borrowers will be eligible to lower their payments and consolidate their loans under a plan President Barack Obama intends to announce Wednesday, the White House said.

            Obama will use his executive authority to provide student loan relief in two ways.

            First, he will accelerate a measure passed by Congress that reduces the maximum repayment on student loans from 15 percent of discretionary income annually to 10 percent. The White House wants it to go into effect in 2012, instead of 2014. In addition, the White House says the remaining debt would be forgiven after 20 years, instead of 25. About 1.6 million borrowers could be affected.

            Second, he will allow borrowers who have loans from both the Family Education Loan Program and a direct loan from the government to consolidate them into one loan. The consolidated loan would be up to a half percentage point less. This could affect 5.8 million more borrowers.

            Education Secretary Arne Duncan told reporters on a conference call that the changes could save some borrowers hundreds of dollars a month.

            "These are real savings that will help these graduates get started in their careers and help them make ends meet," Duncan said.

            Obama is expected to unveil his plan at a stop in Denver. The White House said the changes will carry no additional costs to taxpayers.

            Last year, the Democratic-controlled Congress passed a law that reduced the cap and moved all student loans to direct lending by eliminating banks as the middlemen. Before that, borrowers could get loans directly from the government or from government-backed loans in the Family Education Loan Program that were issued by private lenders but basically insured by the government. The law was passed along with health care overhaul with the anticipation that it could save about $60 billion over a decade.

            Today, there are 23 million borrowers with $490 billion in loans under the Federal Family Education Loan Program. Last year, the Education Department made $102.2 billion in direct loans to 11.5 million recipients.

            Outside of mortgages, student loans are the No. 1 source of household debt, the White House said.

            Also on Tuesday, the Education Department and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau announced a project to simplify the financial aid award letters that colleges mail out to students each spring. A common complaint is that colleges obscure the inclusion of student loans in financial aid packages to make their school appear more affordable, and the agencies hope families will more easily be able to compare the costs of colleges.

            Separately, James Runcie, the Education Department's federal student aid chief operating officer, told a congressional panel on Tuesday that the personal financial details of as many 5,000 college students were temporarily available for other students using the site to view on the Education Department's direct loan website earlier this month. Runcie said site was shut down while the matter was resolved, and the affected students have been notified and offered credit monitoring.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:20 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Why is the MSM silent about Obama now getting us into Uganda, even as Libya begins its descent into an Islamic state?

             
          • Pete posted at 9:19 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Justice Department Proposes Letting Government Deny Existence of Sensitive Documents

            Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/26/justice-department-proposes-letting-government-deny-existence-sensitive/#ixzz1btwmw3Z

             
          • Pete posted at 9:16 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Study: Flu Shots Are Only About 59% Effective In Adults

            http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/10/26/study-flu-shots-are-only-about-59-effective-in-adults/

            Eat right, exercise, get your rest...lifestyle is the best medicine. IMHO

             
          • Pete posted at 9:11 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            This is good for a chuckle or two...only a few weeks and the reality of socialism is taking its toll...lol...

            D.C. occupiers convene, plot to stay the winter
            bySamantha Gilman Follow on Twitter:@upwardglances

            The general assembly.“Mic check!”

            “Mic check!” echoed the crowd of protesters.

            “The general assembly!” (echoed by the crowd).

            “Will be meeting!” (echoed).

            “Over here!” (echoed).

            “In five minutes!” (echo).

            Just before 6:00 Monday night, the shouts rang out through McPherson square by way of the “people’s mic,” a system by which the crowd repeats the speaker so that others can hear.

            The Occupy D.C. protesters at McPherson Square gathered for their nightly general assembly to review the guidelines, discuss logistics, and hear suggestions from members of the tent community that has sprung up on National Park Service land.

            At exactly 6:00 PM, about 40 people gathered on the only portion of McPherson square that is clear of tents, and began their discussions. The agenda included a brief welcome, a reading of guidelines, a review of their unique voting process, committee reports, a “de-escalation” brainstorm, and announcements.

            The protesters have agreed upon 16 guidelines, which include respecting one another, not inhibiting another person’s right to speak, and keeping the space clean. Guideline number 10 reads, “Don’t assume gender. When possible, go with gender-neutral pronouns.”

            To keep the noise level down, protesters use hand signals instead of vocal commands to demonstrate opinion. “Twinkle fingers,” performed by wiggling fingers at ear level, shows approval. “Fact check,” which imitates the rapid-fire of two revolvers, requests a confirmation of logistics. The “block”, which brings the forearms into an X shape, “is very powerful, very rare. It shows your opposition to a proposal is very strong, and that you think the proposal goes against the guidelines so strongly that you would be prepared to leave the movement over it,” a protester explained to the crowd.

            Within 11 minutes, the crowd had grown to 80. They stood, sat, and lay on the grass to hear the committee reports. The reports revealed that protesters are reluctant to “help out” with leadership, and often try to personally benefit from services others provide.

            Elle, representing the medical community, requested more people to help with the medical tent. She made it clear that the tent cannot fill personal prescriptions, adding, “currently, that’s just the way it is.”

            David, from the finance committee, put out a request for help in the committees for sanitation, food, media tech, and sleepers. Committees are eligible for funding, but individuals are not, he reminded the crowd.

            Tizzy represented the comfort committee, and told the crowd that Occupy D.C. is partnering with Patagonia and REI, who will be providing sleeping bags. “They are helping us winterize our campground,” she said, and added, “tell people we really need stuff for winter.” (Update: Both companies deny that they are helping the occupiers.)

            Tom, with the sanitation committee, reminded protesters to clean up after themselves. “Things are really bad,” he said, and warned that the protest could be evacuated because of the lack of sanitation.

            After the committee announcements, the protesters brainstormed ideas for a prospective "de-escalation committee" -- whose purpose would be to maintain the movement's non-violence. Feel free to talk at this protest, but don’t go off-topic. A woman announced at this moment that she was a new-comer, and began expressing her views on Occupy D.C. when another woman cut her off: “This is not time for comments! We are brainstorming de-escalation.”

            Protesters agreed that the de-escalation committee would seek non-violent methods to protest. They requested that the committee be diverse and specifically discouraged too much participation by white heterosexual males.

            During the final session reserved for comments, discussions became somewhat heated when a man stood and said through the “human mic,” “We are all God’s children. We should not label each other.” Another man responded, “Issues of inequality should be at the center of discussions."

            A woman added, “Don’t mention God. It makes me feel like I have to hide my agnostic beliefs.”

            By 7:00 p.m. the meeting was adjourned, and protesters slowly dispersed.

             
          • Pete posted at 9:02 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            EXCLUSIVE: ACORN Playing Behind Scenes Role in "Occupy" Movement
            By Jana Winter

            Published October 26, 2011
            FoxNews.com

            The former director of New York ACORN, Jon Kest, and his top aides are now busy working at protest events for New York Communities for Change (NYCC). That organization was created in late 2009 when some ACORN offices disbanded and reorganized under new names after undercover video exposes prompted Congress to cut off federal funds.

            NYCC’s connection to ACORN isn’t a tenuous one: It works from the former ACORN offices in Brooklyn, uses old ACORN office stationery, employs much of the old ACORN staff and, according to several sources, engages in some of the old organization’s controversial techniques to raise money, interest and awareness for the protests.

            Sources said NYCC has hired about 100 former ACORN-affiliated staff members from other cities – paying some of them $100 a day - to attend and support Occupy Wall Street. Dozens of New York homeless people recruited from shelters are also being paid to support the protests, at the rate of $10 an hour, the sources said.

            At least some of those hired are being used as door-to-door canvassers to collect money that’s used to support the protests.

            Sources said cash donations collected by NYCC on behalf of some unions and various causes are being pooled and spent on Occupy Wall Street. The money is used to buy supplies, pay staff and cover travel expenses for the ex-ACORN members brought to New York for the protests.

            In one such case, sources said, NYCC staff members collected cash donations for what they were told was a United Federation of Teachers fundraising drive, but the money was diverted to the protests.

            Sources who participated in the teachers union campaign said NYCC supervisors gave them the addresses of union members and told them to go knock on their doors and ask for contributions—and did not mention that the money would go toward Occupy Wall Street expenses. One source said the campaign raked in about $5,000.

            Current staff members at NYCC told FoxNews.com the union fundraising drive was called off abruptly last week, and they were told NYCC should not have been raising money for the union at all.

            Sources said staff members also collected door-to-door for NYCC’s PCB campaign — which aims to test schools for deadly toxins —but then pooled that money together with cash raised for the teachers union and other campaigns to fund Occupy Wall Street.

            “We go to Freeport, Central Islip, Park Slope, everywhere, and we say we’re collecting money for PCBs testing in schools. But the money isn’t going to the campaign," one source said.

            "It’s going to Occupy Wall Street, and we’re not using that money to get schools tested for deadly chemicals or to make their kids safer. It’s just going to the protests, and that’s just so terrible.”

            A spokesman for the United Federation of Teachers told FoxNews.com, "The UFT is not involved in any NYCC fundraising on the PCB issue.”

            Multiple sources said NYCC is also using cash donations through canvassing efforts in New York’s Harlem and Washington Heights neighborhoods for union-backed campaigns to fund the Wall Street protests.

            “All the money collected from canvasses is pooled together back at the office, and everything we’ve been working on for the last year is going to the protests, against big banks and to pay people’s salaries—and those people on salary are, of course, being paid to go to the protests every day,” one NYCC staff member told FoxNews.com.

            Those who contribute don't know the money is going to fund the protests, the source said.

            “They give contributions because we say if they do we can fix things - whatever specific problem they’re having in their area, housing, schools, whatever ... then we spend the contributions paying staff to be at the protests all day, every day. That’s where these contributions - the community’s money – is going,” the source said.

            “They’re doing the same stuff now that got ACORN in trouble to begin with. And yes, we’re still ACORN, there is a still a national ACORN.”

            Another source, who said she was hired from a homeless shelter, said she was first sent to the protests before being deployed to Central Islip, Long Island, to canvass for a campaign against home foreclosures.

            “I went to the protests every day for two weeks and made $10 an hour. They made me carry NYCC signs and big orange banners that say NYCC in white letters. About 50 others were hired around my time to go to the protests. We went to protests in and around Zuccotti Park, then to the big Times Square protest,” she said.

            “But now they have me canvassing on Long Island for money, so I get the money and then the money is being used for Occupy Wall Street—to pay for all of it, for supplies, food, transportation, salaries, for everything ... all that money is going to pay for the protests downtown and that’s just messed up. It’s just wrong.”

            Neither Kest, NYCC executive director, nor his communications director returned repeated email and telephone requests for comment, nor did his communications director. A Fox News producer who visited the Brooklyn office on Tuesday was told, "The best people to speak to who are involved with Occupy Wall Street aren't available."

            In a phone interview on Tuesday, Harrison Schultz, an Occupy Wall Street spokesman, said he knew nothing about NYCC’s involvement in the Occupy movement.
            “Haven’t seen them, couldn’t tell you,” he said.

            He said he couldn’t comment on the Occupy the Boardroom website’s relationship to the movement and to NYCC.

            “It’s a horizontal organization, a leaderless organization, it’s difficult to explain it,” Schultz said, “difficult to explain it to people who haven’t worked in this, who haven’t been part of it.”

            Kest publicly threw his organization’s support behind the movement in a Sept. 30 opinion piece on HuffingtonPost.com. But top ex-ACORN staff members and current NYCC officials have been planning events like the Occupy Wall Street protests since February, a source within the group told FoxNews.com.

            That’s when planning began for May 12 protests against Chase bank foreclosures, which were followed by the formation of the Beyond May 12 campaign, targeting Wall Street and big banks. That campaign was rolled out by a coalition of community groups and unions and led by the revamped former ACORN group.

            “What people don’t understand is that ACORN is behind this — and that this, what’s happening now, is all part of the May 12 and Beyond May 12 plans to go after the banks, Chase in particular,” a source said.

            Sources said NYCC was a key player behind a series of recent Occupy Wall Street events, including the Oct. 11 Millionaires March, which brought protests and union and community groups on walking tours of Upper East Side homes of wealthy New Yorkers; and the launch of the “Occupy the Boardroom” website, registered to Kest, which encouraged protesters to contact high-profile bankers, among others.

            Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/26/exclusive-acorn-playing-behind-scenes-role-in-occupy-movement/#ixzz1btshUtpp

             
          • Pete posted at 8:58 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 6:00 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            That's what I thought.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:56 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            JBSTONE: For those of you who wish to see a first hand account of OWS at Zuccotti Park....

            HTC: Good view of Rob's, Bronco's and MT_foundation's "99%". Makes me glad they're not representative of the real 99%.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:51 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Pete posted at 5:15 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011

            HTC: :)

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:48 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Pete: Bronco...you look funny with egg on your face.

            HTC: He used to BE funny; now, he just looks funny.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:27 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            @ OH WILBER,

            Here's a link to a skeptical epidemiologist's view on flu vaccines:

            http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1967306,00.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:24 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            OH WILBER: I do trust Medical Doctors and I hope you do too. But because Dr Ron Paul MD? is against vaccinations, I do not support him, nor any of the fringe groups.

            HTC: The studies on flu vaccine effectiveness are mixed but the latest studies seem to agree on two things: (1) They are significantly less effective in the elderly and (2) The immunity they impart is often short-lived enough that it wouldn't protect all the way through the flu season.

            As for your blind trust in doctors, it never has been deserved and even less so today. We used to teach doctors how to think but now teach them what to think which is often wrong. The aggressive promotion of statins is a good example of conventional medical wisdom having no real basis in science and actually harming many patients instead. There is absolutely NO medical evidence that statins significantly reduce heart attack or stroke risk, yet they are commonly prescribed because they MIGHT be helpful.

            Yet, patients taking them have suffered liver and kidney damage, even liver failure, as well as a kind of muscle deterioration which often continues even after statins are discontinued.

            I have some older doctor friends who have frequently lamented the decline in the quality of education being received by new doctors and the kind of "group think" medicine being practiced today.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 6:09 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            A day in the life of an OWS participant:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2qqRFYv3ao

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:00 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Pete: "Yea, I know...and?"

            Nothing.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:52 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            JB...interesting photos and info. It just confirms the idea that these folks have no coherent message...what a waste of time.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:48 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob..."My father's dead, Pete."

            Yea, I know...and?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:35 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Pete....."Daddy's boy".

            My father's dead, Pete.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:33 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            http://www.ktvu.com/video/29587140/index.html

             
          • Pete posted at 5:31 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob..."He's a comedian, you idiot!"

            Since you're an Olbermann, Madow, O'Donnell, et al, kind of guy...its hard to know who you consider a comedian and who you consider a hard news source.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:23 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            For those of you who wish to see a first hand account of OWS at Zuccotti Park,

            http://american-rattlesnake.org/?s=Zuccotti+Park

             
          • Pete posted at 5:18 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 5:03 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Since you want to be particularly nasty this morning, need we remind folks of your personal story? One that isn't cut from whole cloth...Daddy's boy.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:15 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob..."He's a comedian, you idiot!"

            No...he's an idiot you comedian.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:07 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco...you look funny with egg on your face.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:03 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Oops! Forgot my footnotes: "you idiot! " 1....."something might eat you" 2

            1. High Tech Cowboy: "Political Ramblings of an Electrical Engineer from his CEO Paradise Retreat in Montucky".

            2. National Review article on Silicon Valley Executives living in Compounds in Montana, issue 7734, dated 12/21/12, titled: "How my Lamborghini was carjacked in San Jose, so I bought a section of land in Montana!".

             
          • Pete posted at 5:02 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Occupy Oakland Protesters Try to Retake Campsite, Hurl Paint at Police While Chanting ‘This Is Why We Call You Pigs’

            http://www.theblaze.com/stories/occupy-oakland-protesters-try-to-retake-camp-site-hurl-paint-at-police-while-chanting-this-is-why-we-call-you-pigs/

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:41 am on Wed, Oct 26, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            "HTC: Bill Maher, the master of the strawman argument? That's all you've got?"

            He's a comedian, you idiot! Get your knuckles off the ground, stand up straight, take a deep breath, and smile at all the stars shining and twinkling on this cold, clear morning. Unless your afraid to go outside because something might eat you? It happens, just not as often as you obviously think.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:43 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Gee, Detective JB, did I say OWS or OWS? You are still dancing at the end of my strings.

            HTC, again lumping everyone who doesn't buy into your propaganda as Progressives. You need to do some homework. Ain't no Progressives here.

            "You're an idiot"---HTC

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 9:44 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            Today's front page article about Eloise Cobell from a Helena AP release was a very interesting and tragic story. I always found the Helena newspapers provided residents with more significant news and facts when I lived there and worked as a janitor in the State Capitol.

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 8:42 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            Earlier this month on the 3rd I received my flu shot in Libby and then went to lunch at McDonalds. My blood pressure rose later and I could not sleep for 3 days and had the sweats. 10 days later I came down with flu-like symptoms such as chest cold, dizziness, cramps, spasms, as well as diarrhea. Went to the doctor and was diagnosed with an infectious bronchitis with pink eye that is going around.
            The reason I am telling you this is Montanans have developed a fear of being vaccinated by the current flu shot. Montana is currently last place in the US for being immunized due to lack of information and disinformation on the internet as well as Montana's Republican controlled media.
            With a La Nina winter coming means avion strains will occur.
            I do trust Medical Doctors and I hope you do too. But because Dr Ron Paul MD? is against vaccinations, I do not support him, nor any of the fringe groups.
            To Frank Miele, I do apologize for the temporary insanity and return my choice to Obama for President next year.
            PS. Instead of all the pictures of bears and trivial stories, and mostly advertising, why not print some stories that will help people be informed about local contagious issues.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:25 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Bill Maher skewers right-wing idiots who hate Occupy Wall Street

            HTC: Bill Maher, the master of the strawman argument? That's all you've got?

            I've rarely seen anyone on the right refer to the OWS protesters as "lazy hippies". Socialist scum, yes, but not lazy hippies.

            The only thing Maher's ever skewered is the truth.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:20 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            MT_foundation posted at 5:36 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011

            HTC: So you're going to lead with the Washington Post, the newspaper that was recently taken to task by the liberal Miami Herald for their cheap, distorted front page character assassination piece they recently did on Marc Rubio?

            Yeah, I guess they know all about "devious tactics."

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:17 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            JBSTONE posted at 5:34 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011

            HTC: Good catch, JB.

             
          • Tillie posted at 5:59 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Tillie Posts: 69

            What a load of bollocks this guys writes every week. Gets the script straight from Fox News.

             
          • MT_foundation posted at 5:36 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            MT_foundation Posts: 64

            Oh Frank, it's just boring now. What, specifically did you see at the OWS rallies that offended you? Or, are you just regurgitating what the MSM puts out as news? This piece truly, deeply, and irrefutably lands you in ideological camp that doesn't belong in the same neighborhood as journalism. It’s time to retract and apologize for this slime-job, Frank.

            "The imputation of anti-Semitism, however, adds gravitas to this lighthearted event. The smear is in deadly earnest, a reminder that the devious tactics of the Old Left have been adopted by the New Right."

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/where-are-the-anti-semites-of-occupy-wall-street/2011/10/24/gIQAP89eDM_story.html

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:34 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco's latest unattributed plagiaristic attempt at misleading folks is verbatim from "Open Windows School" or www.ows.org/core_values.php

            NOT Occupy Wall Street......!!!

            Just one MORE case of his being less than honest and forthcoming.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:38 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            http://redgreenandblue.org/2011/10/22/bill-maher-skewers-right-wing-idiots-who-hate-occupy-wall-street/

            Bill Maher skewers right-wing idiots who hate Occupy Wall Street

            ________________________________________________________________________________
            Your a real piece of work, HTC. I don't even think the Pope, a German Dominican, could keep a straight face with your 'Facts'. But hey, we're all rooten for you to 'come around'.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:29 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            It's hard to keep the entrepreneurial spirit out of OWS:

            New York couple tries to trademark 'Occupy Wall St.'By Kristina Sgueglia, CNN
            updated 8:00 AM EST, Tue October 25, 2011

            New York (CNN) -- A Long Island couple wants to trademark the slogan "Occupy Wall St." with the intent to sell sweatshirts, T-shirts, bumper stickers and hobo bags, among other merchandise.

            "I'm no marketing genius, but when you got something that's across 50 states, it's a brand now," said 44-year-old Robert Maresca of West Islip, New York.

            Maresca's wife, Diane, filed a trademark application with the United States Patent and Trademark Office on October 18 and paid a fee of $975.

            The move has some Occupy Wall Street supporters perplexed.

            "The goal of OWS is not to become a profitable business," said Tyler Combelic, an Occupy Wall Street spokesman. "Anything that misconstrues it as such, such as trademarking for the sake of profiting, is missing the point of protest."

            But Robert Maresca sees things differently.

            "I'm the best person they could imagine buying the slogan, because no one has their interest more than myself," he said. "This is an important slogan; somebody else might have gotten a hold of it."

            A former union iron worker, Maresca is now a stay-at-home father of three after suffering a stroke and sustaining a work injury nine years ago. He said he became a supporter of Occupy Wall Street once the union began backing the cause.

            "I'm also really against corporate money distorting elections," he said.

            Maresca, who calls himself a "fiscally conservative but socially liberal" political independent, said his idea stemmed from creating shirts drawn with markers down on Wall Street. But it was his wife -- whom he describes as apolitical -- who filed the application because Maresca does not have a credit card.

            But Combelic said Maresca's attempt runs counter to the Occupy Wall Street mission.

            "I think they are taking what is meant to represent 99% of America and instead making it represent an individual," he said.

            Steve Mancinelli, an intellectual property lawyer in New York, said legally, "you don't get to own words because you think them up."

            He said that the Marescas' "intent of use" application would be approved if they have a "bona fide intention" to produce items for commerce. It would take two to three months until the application is reviewed, at which point a separate "use" application will need to be submitted, Mancinelli said.

            Trademark privileges would give the Marescas' ownership of "Occupy Wall St." the brand, as well as the use of such text on merchandise labels.

            Mancinelli said he, too, was confused that "someone from the OWS gang, which has demonstrated anti-capitalist ideals, would engage in a fundamental capitalist activity, like trademarking."

            When asked where proceeds would go, Robert Maresca said, "it's my intent to have them (Occupy Wall Street supporters) get the maximum benefit possible after any expenses."

            While Maresca said it was too soon to make any promises, "it is my hope to transfer ownership of the trademark to OWS if it's feasible."

            He said he would even sell the trademark to Occupy Wall Street members, if they wanted it, for just $1 -- after they repaid his expenses.

            Combelic said he doesn't think fellow Occupy Wall Street protesters will be too eager to don trademarked "Occupy" clothing.

            "We already make T-shirts down there for free, screen-printing on site," he said. "We think that organic individual marketing -- making our own buttons or T-shirts -- is more valuable."

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:26 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            In addition to the NYPD reporting crime being up 154% in NY since the start of the OWS movement, due to the tremendous diversion of law enforcement resources the protests required, the protestors are well on their way to putting some small businesses out of business:

            Occupy Wall Street Knows Not What It Does Hurting Local Jobs
            October 25, 2011, 7:56 AM EDT
            By Charles Mead and Esme E. Deprez

            Oct. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Occupy Wall Street protests assailing income inequality, joblessness and big banks may have some unintended consequences. They’re hurting nearby merchants as police barricades deter shoppers.

            “If this doesn’t stop soon I will be out of business,” said Marc Epstein, 53, president of Milk Street Cafe on Wall Street, less than a block from the New York Stock Exchange.

            Sales have dropped about 20 percent since the protests began last month and the 103 jobs created by the cafe’s opening in June are now at risk, said Epstein, who’s not alone. Caroline Anderson, general manager of Boutique Tourbillon, a Wall Street jewelry store, said customer traffic is down about 20 percent, and Vincent Alessi, a managing partner at Bobby Van’s Steakhouse on Broad Street, said his lunch business has been cut in half.

            The Occupy Wall Street movement that began in New York with about 1,000 people on Sept. 17 has spread to cities on four continents as demonstrators from London to Rome and Chicago to Sydney have pitched tents in public spaces. Police, whose displays of force also may be hurting business as they block access to tourist destinations, have arrested hundreds.

            “These protesters don’t understand the consequences of their actions,” Epstein said. “Who’s going to create the jobs they’re banging their drums for?”

            As Wall Street banks reported earnings this month, financial executives made little or no mention of the protests’ impact on their business. Firms including Bank of America Corp., JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Citigroup Inc. have their main New York offices in Midtown, about three miles from the protest epicenter in Lower Manhattan’s Zuccotti Park.

            At Kenjo, a watch retailer adjacent to Milk Street Cafe, the barricades have killed the lunch-hour rush, Artice Jones, the manager, said yesterday as he looked around a store devoid of customers.

            “If it stays this way for the rest of the month, it’s not going to look good going into November,” Jones said.

            Sales have plunged 40 percent at Paternoster Chop House near the London Stock Exchange, said manager Gerhard Jacobs, whose waiters greet customers at the metal barricades and escort them through the square that police have cordoned off.

            “Not only is it affecting my general trade, it’s also affecting my future business,” Jacobs said. “We’ve got inquiries for weddings and exclusive hirings who are now considering taking their business to other restaurants because of the uncertainty of how long this may carry on.”

            Alessi, the steakhouse manager, said customers are “fed up” and are seeking out more convenient places to eat.

            “We’re tired of being herded through barricades like cattle,” he said.

            Paul Browne, a spokesman for the New York City Police Department, didn’t respond to e-mails inviting comment on how the barricades have hurt businesses in the area.

            It’s too early to tell whether the protests are damaging the real estate market in New York’s Financial District, where pending apartment sales have slumped 26 percent in the past month, compared with an 8.8 percent decline for all of Manhattan, said Noah Rosenblatt, founder of UrbanDigs.com, a real estate data and consulting firm.

            Beth Bogart, 55, a documentary filmmaker from New York’s West Village who’s volunteered at the Zuccotti Park press table for the past three weeks, said she has encouraged occupiers, visitors and journalists to help local businesses.

            “It’s a fairness issue; this cart was here before we were here,” she said, pointing to the food and apparel vendors that line the park’s south border. “We have to make sure that since we are here he doesn’t go out of business. That would be an incredible injustice.”

            Some businesses have benefited from the influx of protesters and curious tourists.

            A teashop that faces about 100 tents pitched in front of London’s St. Paul’s Cathedral has drawn lines of customers stretching to the door as people converged on the area to witness the protests, said waitress Zanete Cakane.

            Some merchants near the European Central Bank headquarters in Frankfurt, where protesters have pitched about 80 tents, are benefiting from the movement.

            “If anything, we are getting more business from the demonstrators,” said Isabelle Baelly, 54, who runs a newsstand across from the ECB. “They are very peaceful and we have been letting them use our bathroom facilities and Internet.”

            Sales are up as much as $1,000 a day at the Pret A Manger sandwich shop a block and a half north of Zuccotti Park, said Shamirah Dillard, a store manager.

            “It’s been good, definitely,” she said in an interview. Weekends and days with scheduled marches bring the greatest peaks in extra sales, especially for hot drinks, which more than cover the increased costs of toilet paper and maintenance to keep the two bathrooms clean, she said.

            About four-in-10 Americans say they support the Occupy Wall Street movement, according to a Pew Research Center/Washington Post poll released yesterday. Almost as many, 35 percent, say they oppose the protests. The telephone survey of 1,009 adults was conducted Oct. 20-23 and had an error margin of plus or minus 4 percentage points.

            Demonstrators initially struggled to build momentum, drawing a fraction of the 20,000 participants that organizers such as Adbusters, a group promoting the movement, aimed to lure to lower Manhattan last month. Prior to the Occupy Wall Street movement, Adbusters gained attention for what critics called an anti-semitic essay published in 2004.

            Amos Winbush III, a Wall Street resident, said he has stopped frequenting a local Thai restaurant and started ordering groceries for delivery.

            “I’m super passionate about the movement, but the frustration is feeling like you’re in a war zone with barricades in front of my apartment and cops with big guns standing around,” Winbush, 28, said inside a Brooks Brothers store across the street from Zuccotti Park. “We were okay being a little uncomfortable for a couple of weeks, but after six weeks it gets to be a little much.”

            --With assistance from Namitha Jagadeesh in London, Alex Webb in Frankfurt and Katie Spencer in New York. Editors: Peter Eichenbaum, Dan Reichl

            To contact the reporters on this story: Charles Mead in New York at cmead11@bloomberg.net; Esme E. Deprez in New York at edeprez@bloomberg.net

            To contact the editors responsible for this story: David Scheer at dscheer@bloomberg.net; Mark Tannenbaum at mtannen@bloomberg.net

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:13 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Did you forget to add "In My Humble Opinion"? Or in your world, is that considered a fact?

            Bronco: Are your facts all true? Many of your 'facts' are simply opinion.

            HTC: There are facts which aren't debatable, unless you don't like them because they refute a position or policy you prefer to hold. Progressives have long sought to teach us and our children that there are no objective facts and that the only real "facts" are those which support their collectivist vision for the world.

            Thus, they will tell you that the Constitution is a "living document", subject to reinterpretation in more "modern times" rather than a document which only provides for modification via an amendment process which it provides.

            They will tell you that words have only those meanings they give to them, not what a dictionary or historical use has documented.

            They will tell you that the 2nd Amendment is a "collective right", rather than an individual right like all the others.

            They will tell you that the poor are poor because they are exploited and held down by the 'rich', not because of poor choices they themselves made.

            They will tell you that, if you worked harder and smarter than many of your fellow Americans, you have an "obligation" to submit to financial rape at the hands of your less industrious brethren and that they aren't guilty of a moral crime for taking from you what they have no right to take.

            They will tell you that correlation is causation for anything from perceived racial discrimination to alleged man-caused global warning.

            They will insist that tax-cuts aren't stimulative even though actual economic data proves otherwise.

            They will insist that, even though the 1% pay 40% of the income taxes, they still aren't paying their fair share.

            They will argue that our students' declining test scores are due to our not spending enough on public education even though we've nearly tripled per-student spending since I was a kid.

            They will insist that the OWS movement truly represents 99% of America even though every sampling taken amongst them shows them to be just a bunch of ignorant socialists who want what others have earned but without earning it for themselves.

            I could go on and on but I doubt you'd understand my point since you've both been thoroughly brainwashed into believing their crap and you're emotionally and intellectually incapable of handling the truth.

             
          • Bronco posted at 2:48 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            These headlines just in:

            Shrewd Koch Brothers Acquire World's largest Protest Sign Manufacturer
            (Bros. hope deal is widely protested)

            New 'Occupy Occupy Wall Street' is Mining Anger at Anger
            (Top 5% of protesters getting 95% of coverage)


            ---Bad Reporter---Don Asmussen

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:12 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: "I'm only disrespectful of opinions that conflict with the facts. I initially give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they may not be in possession of all the facts; however, when they insist on their fantasy take on reality even after the facts have been presented to them, they deserve no quarter at that point nor is it possible to insult the intelligence which they clearly do not possess."
            -------------------------------------------
            Are your facts all true? Many of your 'facts' are simply opinion.
            Are you in possession of all of them? That would make you the only one who is.
            Have you ever been wrong? Careful here, you may receive no quarter or an insult to an intelligence which you believe you possess.

            None of us have all the facts and many of the facts are 'fed' to us. You have no right to insult people's intelligence based on your weird parameters. You insist that you do. You can post without insults. You choose not to. A reflection of poor character and quite dishonorable.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 12:18 pm on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "We have come to the brink of economic ruin as a nation because we've allowed ourselves, in the name of political correctness, to be made subservient to the false god of moral and factual relativism."

            Did you forget to add "In My Humble Opinion"? Or in your world, is that considered a fact?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:12 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Pete: http://legalinsurrection.com/2011/10/how-long-before-dems-call-ows-a-rovian-plot/

            HTC: I think Mr. Jacobson is onto something. This may yet be an entertaining electoral season.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:04 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: You come into the room on your high horse disrespectful of any opinion that differs from your own. Anyone who disagrees with you gets slammed with an insult to their intelligence.

            HTC: You're the one who still doesn't get it.

            I'm only disrespectful of opinions that conflict with the facts. I initially give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they may not be in possession of all the facts; however, when they insist on their fantasy take on reality even after the facts have been presented to them, they deserve no quarter at that point nor is it possible to insult the intelligence which they clearly do not possess.

            We have come to the brink of economic ruin as a nation because we've allowed ourselves, in the name of political correctness, to be made subservient to the false god of moral and factual relativism.

            Well, I, for one, refuse to worship that god. It is time to bring back shame, the one mechanism by which the morons and nut-jobs of society are kept in check and forced to slither back under the rock from whence they came.

            Respect is not owed - IT IS EARNED!

            And if they can't be shamed into silence, then let them feel the wrathful insults of the rest of us that are still in possession of our mental faculties.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:47 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            12.5% of our solar system's planets have 71% of the system's mass.

            Join OccupyJupiter now!

            (courtesy of PatriotPost)

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:46 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            You still don't get it, HTC. You insist upon calling other users of this SITE idiots, morons, along with the other personal insults to their intelligence, yet you stubbornly and illogically cling to the notion that you are honorable in doing so. If this were a classroom, Frank would put you in the corner. Remember that? Teachers did that to instill a sense of shame for dishonorable actions committed by those kids who were incapable of distinguishing shameful behavior from acceptable behavior.
            You come into the room on your high horse disrespectful of any opinion that differs from your own. Anyone who disagrees with you gets slammed with an insult to their intelligence. You win the Condescension Award! A framed photo of the tops of everyone's head! In 3D!

             
          • Pete posted at 10:33 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            mooseberryinn posted at 6:00 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            They believe in everything and nothing. (see Bronco's post of their "Core Values".

            While the Democrat Party, Socialists, and Unions are trying desperately to hold this "coalition" of misfits together, I think they are herding cats. At some point the various fringe elements, who have no more in common than hatred for the system, will go their separate ways.

            Here's an interesting take on it.

            http://legalinsurrection.com/2011/10/how-long-before-dems-call-ows-a-rovian-plot/

             
          • Pete posted at 10:13 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:17 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            :-)

            I received a glimmer of hope last night when a young couple who are friends of mine visited. I knew they were vocal and vociferous supporters of the OWS movement through their various facebook posting etc., so I was sure they were going to start foisting their arguments on me. Imagine my surprise when they initiated a conversation about OWS and began expressing their disillusionment with the movement. They couldn't distance themselves enough from the actions of the "occupy" crowd.

            They expressed many of the same concerns reasonable folks have raised about the "movement" having been hi-jacked by extreme elements intent on using "useful idiots" (their words) to project a radical agenda. They stated that many of their like-minded friends are coming to the same conclusion.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:51 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            mooseberryinn posted at 6:00 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011

            HTC: Yes, it is incredible, but the simple fact remains that there's no fixing stupid.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:48 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: The actual Scientists who have had rats drinking water with 1 PPM, and seeing no correlation in disease, laugh at the 1 PPB 'Trigger Point', but instead of enlightening the Legislature instead form Corporations to Clean and Profit from the Horror! "It's a Free Market?"

            HTC: So now the "actual Scientists" are the bad guys?

            Your premise that they haven't attempted to enlighten legislatures is false. They have repeatedly done so but those legislators then bring in their junk-scientists and PowerPoint scare slides to once again muddy the waters.

            Making matters worse for the real scientists, the liberal media vilifies them, academia shuns them and government refuses to fund any more of their research.

            Their only other option for supporting themselves is to then profit from the unnecessary cleanups demanded by intentionally passed fraudulent legislation based upon junk science.

            And you blame THEM?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:40 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: How can you say that? The article clearly states that the 'bow-tie model" is not a consciously manufactured conspiracy but rather a natural metamorphoses within the capitalist system. After looking at this scenario, one can draw political conclusions based on one's own definition of "power" and how such "power" should or should not be shared (the bottom line of Poly Sci?). But to dismiss the whole interconnect of players and their Corporate 'Persons' is to miss the point of the study.

            HTC: To suggest that interconnectedness necessarily means that there exists a networked "consciousness" of some kind that is always acting in the best interests of its members is to misunderstand the purpose of network modelling.

            The "bow-tie model" merely shows relationships between entities per whatever subjective definitions are chosen by the modeler. The validity of those definitions and their significance is NOT validated by the model; rather, the model merely mimics the biases of its developers.

            Since I have significant experience in computer modelling, I spotted the research's problems right away. Those who lack my experience and understanding in this area are sitting ducks for its deceptions.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:29 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Almost Reptilian ("if it moves, eat it!"), and very, very much Republican Protected.....Why?

            HTC: And your proof of that would be what - the money they've received from Wall Street?

            Oops! That would be money the Democrats received which is FAR larger than their contributions to the GOP. In fact, the man in the Oval Office who you helped to elect has set a new record for contributions from Wall Street.

            Clearly it's the Democrats who are "protecting Wall Street."

            Rob123: Yet another point in the collage of points in what constitutes OWS.

            HTC: Do you really think any of those "Eat the Rich" morons could even begin to articulate that point?

            That premise is supremely laughable!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:22 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            MontanaJim72: Do the OWS not deserve the same rights as the tea party?

            HTC: Of course they do and they've been given them in spades. Do you think the press would have been as forgiving of the Tea Party types if they'd overstayed their welcome, crapped on patrol cars and trashed private property?

            I don't think so.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:17 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Spent a little time watching the chat room on occupywallst.org. What a bunch of dummies!

            Some excerpts:

            "Euros are made from the skin of innocent children."

            "All money should be eliminated and we should go back to bartering for everything."

            "Close your IRAs and 401(k)s to bring down Wall Street faster."

            "Why don't people understand us? It's so simple. We should all have the same things."

            "Why aren't more people outraged? Must be because of cable TV."

            "People are not outraged because we enjoy all of our toys and conveniences and will not give them up." (That moron clearly doesn't realize that those 'toys' came from corporate America and that he can afford them because of the wages and benefits he gets from corporate America.)

            "Q: Why do we have rich people? A: So we can eat them."

            "It would be good if they worked a democratic assembly into the plot of walking dead."

            "I ate raw Ramen noodles. Am I going to explode?"

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:06 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "Everything I've said about you is true."

            That's awfully subjective for a trained Engineer? I could point out some errors in your Self image, but since your part of the 1% 'bow-tie', I'm afraid I'd lose my line of credit. So I'll just shuffle off to my morning walk with the dogs, and hope my Bright Orange jacket keeps me from being shot by an out of stater.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:01 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: OWS Core Values...(From their website) Is this cool or what?

            HTC: Since there are a few websites unofficially "representing" OWS, but no "official" website, why don't you share with us which one you got that from.

            These are the "core values" as expressed by occupywallst.org:

            "We are a nonviolent movement We seek liberty and equal opportunity for all regardless of nationality, race creed or other individual choices or conditions All persons are individuals, corporations are not individuals with divine rights. Corporations and governments are only the sum of the individuals, not a separate entity. Goverments gain their authority to rule with the consent of the citizens. All monetary instruments that are created shall have intrinsic value. Private institution have no right to create or influence the creation of any monetary instrument. Human rights are not granted by the government but are inherent and are protected by the government equally and fairly. Individual rights are inherent, they can not come at the expense of another, they are not granted and not legislated. Our Common Denominator is the wellbeing of all mankind."

            Of course, they can't see the obvious contradiction in the statement that "individual rights are inherent" and their demand that they be given what others have earned and they have not.

            But that blindness is the nature of useful idiots.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:37 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: HTC, just in case you have forgotten...

            HTC: I've not violated that. In case YOU'VE forgotten, defamation is the act of intentionally spreading falsehoods about another with the intent to cause them harm.

            Everything I've said about you is true.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:33 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Am I honorable now?

            HTC: It's kind of like virginity - once lost, it's gone forever....

             
          • bill39 posted at 7:44 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            bill39 Posts: 1039

            Sounds like mt. jim and wilbur are getting desperate.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 6:00 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Amazing - People can readily witness the ignorance of the OWS bunch, hear their incredibly stupid answers to basic questions on why they're "protesting", see the "evidence" of their 'environmental effect" on the park they're trashing etc. etc. and still.... they just can't get beyond their "liberal/progressive" indoctrination. Obama must appear as nothing less than a "god" to them?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:13 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Oh Wilbur: "During the Montana oil boom 30 years ago......" " I found that being a piano-player in a whorehouse was a cleaner industry."

            (-: Thirty years ago was the tail end of "Out of Sight, Out of Mind" and the dawning of the understanding that there are real causes for 'Cancer Clusters'. A lot of resistance from 'The Greatest Generation', but with the formation of the EPA (71) and the 50 States DEQ's (80's), over the last 2 decades the problem has changed into the problematic definition of "How Clean is Clean?" as non-scientists drill holes into ground water and freak out over 1 PPB (part per billion), and have convinced the legislatures how bad that 1 PPB is, in their emotional opinion; and have it Codified with the Full Power of the State ready to enforce said Environmental Law. The actual Scientists who have had rats drinking water with 1 PPM, and seeing no correlation in disease, laugh at the 1 PPB 'Trigger Point', but instead of enlightening the Legislature instead form Corporations to Clean and Profit from the Horror! "It's a Free Market?"

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:48 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "This is pseudo-science for those who need something more than their paranoia to convince themselves that a few evil companies are ruling the world."

            How can you say that? The article clearly states that the 'bow-tie model" is not a consciously manufactured conspiracy but rather a natural metamorphoses within the capitalist system. After looking at this scenario, one can draw political conclusions based on one's own definition of "power" and how such "power" should or should not be shared (the bottom line of Poly Sci?). But to dismiss the whole interconnect of players and their Corporate 'Persons' is to miss the point of the study.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:45 am on Tue, Oct 25, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: "Computer models merely mimic what we program them to simulate and do not in themselves constitute proof of anything in the real world."

            So, how do Hedge Funds work? And why do they operate in 'Dark Pools' trading in 'Nano Seconds' with the potential to wipe out any growth, plus 50% of principle, of an individual's 401K or IRA, yet maintain a safe distance from any Regulators Scrutiny due to the Proprietary Nature of their Private Property Existence? Are they actually 'trading', or merely jumping in front of old fashioned trades and reaping profit? Almost Reptilian ("if it moves, eat it!"), and very, very much Republican Protected.....Why?

            Yet another point in the collage of points in what constitutes OWS.

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 11:11 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            During the Montana oil boom 30 years ago, I recall a mountain of untreated garbage was left along the banks of the Yellowstone River between Sydney and Fairview to flow into the Missouri on it's way down to the Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico after each spring runoff. The paddlefish were 90 percent diseased with black meat. The Sulpher smell was everywhere and the lives of the inexperienced were short. Potholes and unrepaired roads were left. Hotels were trashed. The majority of the money all went back to the eastern big banks leaving Montana left with the reputation as the 'last best place to trash.' Now that Bank of America (bank of Italy) is located in Seattle, Spokane and Idaho and have boughten out Washington Mutual, the money will leave to the West to California next time. I found that being a piano-player in a whorehouse was a cleaner industry.

             
          • MontanaJim72 posted at 11:00 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            MontanaJim72 Posts: 223

            Bronco....

            Frank does not want to hear the facts about OWS. He is quite happy with his FOX news inspired version about them. He seems to conveniently forget about the tea party people who hung on the edges of any Democratic contenders with their guns readily at hand, making sure the American people understood exactly where they stood with people who might not agree with them. I love watching the tea party go crazy over the OWS, when they were exactly the same thing a few years ago. Apparently, what was good for the tea party is not necessarily good for anybody else that wants to use their constitutional rights. Do the OWS not deserve the same rights as the tea party?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:05 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            OWS Core Values

            Core Values

            Nurturing Environment: A nurturing atmosphere designed to enhance and enrich the social and emotional needs of people of exceptional intellectual ability. We encourage confidence, responsibility, and intellectual risk taking.

            Creativity: We celebrate the ingenuity and insight that seeks new connections and fresh perspectives. We encourage originality, flexibility, and higher order thinking.

            Passion For Learning

            Personal Excellence: Our goal is to sustain an environment that promotes high expectations and provides the support to venture to new levels of personal excellence.

            Curriculum: To blend traditional and innovative methods for independent thinking and achievement.

            Collaborative Community: To work together in a collaborative community to achieve our mission.

            Respect For Individual: Provide a climate that celebrates individuality in all its aspects.

            World Vision: We recognize the increasing interdependence of all people, the need for cooperation, negotiation, and conflict resolution in order to become effective participants in a changing world community.

            (From their website) Is this cool or what?

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:49 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, just in case you have forgotten...


            DIL WEB SITE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE
...No material shall be stored or transmitted which infringes or violates the rights of others, which is unlawful, obscene, indecent or otherwise objectionable, threatening, defamatory, or invasive of privacy or publicity rights. 
As a user of the Site...you must not do the following things: post material that is obscene, defamatory, threatening, harassing, abusive hateful, or embarrassing to another user of the Site or any other person or entity...

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:47 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: These are merely the long-held rules of honorable men.
            -------------------------
            You're an idiot--HTC (a personal insult from over 100 of his posts)

            Am I honorable now?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:13 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: The Network of Global Corporate Control

            HTC: That would be really interesting if there was any reason to believe that S. Vitali's research using network analysis did indeed have any predictive value in the real world of economics, but that relationship is unproven outside of the computer model which they created.

            Computer models merely mimic what we program them to simulate and do not in themselves constitute proof of anything in the real world.

            That's the fallacy behind anthropogenic global warming - it only exists in a few computer models whose scientific predictions are frequently wrong.

            This is pseudo-science for those who need something more than their paranoia to convince themselves that a few evil companies are ruling the world.

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 5:35 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            @Rick Spencer- If Frank Miele's habitual veracity be 100% pure that could possibly make him the long awaited right wing jewish messiah. This could get him on David Letterman as well as life eternal membership in the NRA. I know this is going to be even harder to calculate the math after spilling the coffee on the keyboard, so with the current world population at 7.1 Billion/100,000 chosen few, let us now have JB calculate the actual ratio. You can do it big boy.

             
          • RussCrowder posted at 5:15 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            RussCrowder Posts: 414

            "From each according to his ability - to each according to his need" is a seductive song to those with less ability than need.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:47 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            "HTC: These are merely the long-held rules of honorable men. Guess what that says about you...."

            Ahhhhhhh, is it time for the little tiger to to take a nap? Time out, little guy. Maybe dig a little spider hole, so you have a place to go after you lob your 3rd mortar round and it all comes crashing back on you.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:41 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            R.S., Dr. PhD Econ: With all due respect, still watching a lot of Glenn Beck, I assume? I used to, back when he was on CNN. Some real points, but then the Manic Side would start and it was more of a glimpse into the psychology of mania with a decidedly political bent. Interesting, but awfully strange. Of course, after he had managed to transform all the tenets of Jew Baiting into Islamofascist phobia, CNN let him go and Fox News jumped on him. But, he even proved too much for them.

            Anyway, things aren't looking good for general glut theory as no one seems to have a handle on the derivatives market. It's way over my pay grade! But I'm worried.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 3:20 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            HTC: Thanks for the B...S... sites with the interviews and the author, Dr. Frankfurt. All of our readers would do themselves a service by watching and closely listening to the distinctions between a B....S...er and a liar. I think that what I like most about Frank's articles is that there is no B...S..., nor lies. Only the pursuit of truth, and that is difficult to obtain and even more difficult for many to accept. And, only the brave confront and write the truth. The truth hurts, but the unctuous falsity of a B...S...er soothes the woes of many. Frank is in a lonely spot with his writings that defend the truth and call out those who spew B...S.... I commend him and support his efforts. RLS

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:51 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: HTC, this is a forum, not a college thesis or dissertation. No one is bound by any dictate to cite sources or give credit. Usually, doing so invites more attacks by you and your lackeys in your tasteless attempts to discredit anyone who has a different opinion than you. If you want to make the rules, maybe first try following the ones already in place.

            HTC: These are merely the long-held rules of honorable men. Guess what that says about you....

             
          • Bronco posted at 2:39 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, this is a forum, not a college thesis or dissertation. No one is bound by any dictate to cite sources or give credit. Usually, doing so invites more attacks by you and your lackeys in your tasteless attempts to discredit anyone who has a different opinion than you. If you want to make the rules, maybe first try following the ones already in place.

            JB, that is one of the most preposterous claims you have every made. First you get all bent and self-righteous about something, then say it's not to be taken seriously. You stated, "You quoted your last post as if it were legitimate. Which is the same as Lying." All this went on in your head, dud. A subjective experience fortified by the need to whine.

            You two take the cake. What's all this "taking credit" really about? One-upmanship?

            sources for all words above taken from 'The New International Webster's Pocket Dictionary of the English Language.'

            (feel better about yourselves now?)

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:28 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Catholics, Finance, and the Perils of Conventional Wisdom
            By Samuel Gregg
            Posted on October 24, 2011 12:22 PM
            http://www.nationalreview.com/blogs/print/281099

            Despite the Catholic Left’s excited hyperventilating that the document released today by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace (PCJP) would put the Church “to the left of Nancy Pelosi” on economic issues, more careful reading of “Towards Reforming the International Financial and Monetary Systems in the Context of Global Public Authority” soon indicates that it reflects rather conventional contemporary economic thinking. Unfortunately, given the uselessness of much present-day economics, that’s not likely to make it especially helpful in thinking through some of our present financial challenges.

            Doctrinally speaking, there’s nothing new to be found in this text. As PCJP officials will themselves tell you, it’s not within this curial body’s competence to make doctrinal statements that bind Catholic consciences. Moreover, the notion that an increasingly integrated world economy requires some type of authority able to make decisions about what the Church calls “the universal common good” has long been a staple of Catholic social teaching. Such references to a global world authority have always been accompanied by an emphasis on the idea of subsidiarity, and the present document is no exception to that rule. This principle maintains that any higher level of government should assist lower forms of political authority and civil-society associations “only when” (as this PCJP text states) “individual, social or financial actors are intrinsically deficient in capacity, or cannot manage by themselves to do what is required of them.”

            But putting aside doctrinal questions, this text also makes claims of a more strictly economic nature. Given that these generally fall squarely into the area of prudential judgment for Catholics, it’s quite legitimate for Catholics to discuss and debate some of this document’s claims. So here are just a few questions worth asking.

            First, the text makes a legitimate point about the effects of a disjunction between the financial sector and the rest of the economy. It fails, however, to note that one major reason for this disjunction has been the dissolution of any tie between money and an external object of value that regulates the quantity of money and credit in circulation in the “real” economy.

            Between the late 1870s and 1914, such a linkage existed in the form of the classic gold standard. This gave the world remarkable monetary stability and low inflation without any centralized authority. You needn’t be a Ron Paul disciple to recognize that fiat money’s rise is at least partly responsible for the monetary crises this document correctly laments.

            Second, this document displays no recognition of the role played by moral hazard in generating the 2008 crisis or the need to prevent similar situations from arising in the future. Moral hazard describes those situations when people are effectively insulated from the possible negative consequences of their choices. This makes them more likely to take risks they wouldn’t otherwise take — especially with other people’s money. The higher the extent of the guarantee, the greater is the risk of moral hazard. It creates, as the financial journalist Martin Wolf writes, “an overwhelming incentive to privatize gains and socialize losses.”

            If PCJP were cognizant of this fact, it might have hesitated before recommending we consider “forms of recapitalization of banks with public funds, making the support conditional on ‘virtuous’ behaviours aimed at developing the ‘real economy.’” Such a recapitalization would simply reinforce the message that Wall Street can always turn to taxpayers to bail them out when their latest impossible-to-understand financial scheme goes south. In terms of orthodox Catholic theology, it’s worth reminding ourselves that the one who creates an occasion of sin bears some indirect responsibility for the choices of the person tempted by this situation to do something very imprudent or simply wrong.

            Third, given this text’s subject matter, it reflects one very strange omission. Nowhere does it contain a detailed discussion of the high levels of public debt and deficits in many developed economies, the clear-and-present danger they represent to the global financial system, and their negative impact upon the prospects for economic growth (i.e., what gets people out of poverty).#more#

            Given these facts, how could governments provide the aforementioned public funds when they are already so heavily in debt and already tottering under the weight of existing fiscal obligations? By raising taxes? Even Bill Clinton thinks that’s not a great idea in an economic slowdown. Indeed, the basic demands of commutative justice indicate that governments need to meet their current obligations to existing creditors before they can even consider contributing to further bailouts.

            Fourth, the document calls for the creation of some type of world central bank. Yet its authors seem unaware that much of the blame for our present economic mess is squarely attributable to central banks. Here one need only note that the Federal Reserve’s easy-money policies from 2000 onwards played an indispensible role in creating America’s housing-market bubble, the development of questionable securities products, and the subsequent 2008 meltdown.

            Calls for a global central bank aren’t new. Keynes argued for such an organization 75 years ago. But why, given national central banks’ evident failures, should anyone suppose that a global central bank wouldn’t fall prey to the same errors? The folly of a centralized supranational body like the European Central Bank setting a one-size-fits-all interest-rate for economies as different as Greece and Germany should now be evident to everyone who doesn’t live in the fantasy world inhabited by EU bureaucrats. Indeed, it is simply impossible for any one individual or organization to know what is the optimal interest-rate for every country in the EU, let alone the world.

            Plenty of other critiques could — and no doubt will — be made of some of the economic claims advanced in this PCJP document. As if in anticipation of this criticism, the document states, “We should not be afraid to propose new ideas.” That is most certainly true. Unfortunately, many of its authors’ ideas reflect an uncritical assimilation of the views of many of the very same individuals and institutions that helped generate the world’s most serious economic crisis since the Great Depression. For a church with a long tradition of thinking seriously about finance centuries before anyone had ever heard of John Maynard Keynes or Friedrich Hayek, we can surely do better.

            — Samuel Gregg is research director at the Acton Institute. He has authored several books including On Ordered Liberty, his prize-winning The Commercial Society, Wilhelm Röpke’s Political Economy, and his 2012 forthcoming Becoming Europe: Economic Decline, Culture, and America’s Future.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:10 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: " I'll have to hit the bastards with mortar fire instead of bombing them from the air."

            Much smaller carbon foot print! Good for you! Plus, I know how to triangulate.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 1:55 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco: "HTC @ JB: Surely you know by now how much Bronco likes to Borrow(itz) from the creativity of others.
            ---------------------
            You say this to the King of Cut and Paste?...to Tiny Yurl himself? Laughable."

            ~~~~~~~~~~~

            There's a HUGE difference. I don't take credit for others' work and I try to cite my sources in all cases.

            The Borowitz Report and The Onion are satirical sites, not to be taken seriously.

            You quoted your last post as if it were legitimate. Which is the same as Lying.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:44 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Sorry you had to sell the plane.

            HTC: Yeah, I didn't see the OWS thing coming or I might have kept it. Now, if Reggie's "revolution" does occur, I'll have to hit the bastards with mortar fire instead of bombing them from the air.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 1:44 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            The Network of Global Corporate Control
            Monday 24 October 2011
            by: Christine Lepisto, TreeHugger | Report
            A Few Companies Have Power Over Most of the Real Economy

            The idea that the few dominate the many will not come as news to those gathered either to occupy wall street or to occupy everywhere. But up until now it has been just an intuition that a few corporations control the world.

            Not any more. A team of Swiss mathematicians just proved that out of over 43,000 transnational corporations (TNCs), relatively few control almost 80% of the global economy. Find out who has the power below.

            Global Domination a Facebook Phenomenon, Not a Conspiracy

            The team, led by S. Vitali of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, used a method of analysis often applied to connectivity in the internet. Called the "bow-tie model," the method assigns companies onto the parts of a bow-tie.

            Inter-connected companies sit on the knot of the bow tie shape. All of the companies in the knot have control relationships to other companies in the knot and are themselves controlled by other companies in the knot. Companies which control those in the knot, but are not themselves controlled in return, are visualized on one wing of the bow-tie. And companies controlled by those in the knot, but not themselves controlling, are on the other wing of the bowtie.

            The fact that a small number of companies are highly connected in the knot does not prove unbalanced control; after all, it is normal in networking that everyone wants a connection to the powerful few, who connect out to those who can offer something in return. But by combining the bow-tie topology with a control ranking, the team came to an amazing conclusion.

            Less than 1% of Companies in Control

            The team found a core of 1318 companies (mostly financial services companies) with an average of 20 control links each amongst themselves. These 1318 companies represent only 0.7% of the TNCs but 18.7% of the revenue of all TNCs. When one adds in the 59.8% of the revenues from companies on the wing of the bow-tie controlled by those in the knot, these companies control almost 80% of the global economy.

            A "super-entity" of 147 companies, or 0.3% of all TNCs, holds control over fully 40% of the economic value of TNCs. In the words of the authors:

            4/10 of the control over the economic value of TNCs in the world is held, via a complicated web of ownership relations, by a group of 147 TNCs in the core, which has almost full control over itself.

            The Danger: Conflict of Interest and Stability Risk, Not Conspiracy

            This study is a sitting duck for those who want to twist the results to prove a huge conspiracy theory. But that would risk seeking the wrong solution, because this strong connectivity stems from a natural organization of entities in networks, not from conspiracy.

            But as those who occupy everywhere loudly make known, when less than 1% are in control, the risk of instability is too high. "Too Big to Fail" arises when too few control too much.

            As the world rises up against economic injustice, Truthout brings you the latest news and analysis, free of corporate influence. Help support this work with a tax-deductible donation today.

            Additionally, there are conflicts of interest inherent in the strong interconnectivity found by this study. Although this core may not be conspiring, it would be naive to suggest that the end effect does not suffer from the same economic downsides that governments and financial regulators attempt when preventing monopolistic practices. Or that this level of inter-connected, concentrated control does not harm fair trade, the environment, and other causes essential to sustainability but secondary to free market capitalism.

            Observers have derided the Occupiers for not having a plan for change. But effective change requires understanding the outset conditions. This study proves what we have all suspected, and offers some powerful tools to begin to address the risks of instability and lopsided power intrinsic in the current global economic system.

            The authors suggest that new regulatory mechanisms will have to extend beyond national borders. They are almost certainly right.

            The Top 50 Control Holders*

            BARCLAYS PLC (GB)
            THE CAPITAL GROUP COMPANIES INC (US)
            FMR CORP (US)
            AXA (FR)
            STATE STREET CORPORATION (US)
            JPMORGAN CHASE & CO. (US)
            LEGAL & GENERAL GROUP PLC (GB)
            THE VANGUARD GROUP, INC. (US)
            UBS AG (CH)
            MERRILL LYNCH & CO., INC. (US)
            WELLINGTON MANAGEMENT CO. L.L.P. (US)
            DEUTSCHE BANK AG (DE)
            FRANKLIN RESOURCES, INC. (US)
            CREDIT SUISSE GROUP (CH)
            WALTON ENTERPRISES LLC (US)
            BANK OF NEW YORK MELLON CORP. (US)
            NATIXIS (FR)
            THE GOLDMAN SACHS GROUP, INC. (US)
            T. ROWE PRICE GROUP, INC. (US)
            LEGG MASON, INC. (US)
            MORGAN STANLEY (US)
            MITSUBISHI UFJ FINANCIAL GROUP, INC. (JP)
            NORTHERN TRUST CORPORATION (US)
            SOCIÉTÉ GÉNÉRALE (FR)
            BANK OF AMERICA CORPORATION (US)
            LLOYDS TSB GROUP PLC (GB)
            INVESCO PLC (GB)
            ALLIANZ SE (DE)
            TIAA (US)
            OLD MUTUAL PUBLIC LIMITED COMPANY (GB)
            AVIVA PLC (GB)
            SCHRODERS PLC (GB)
            DODGE & COX (US)
            LEHMAN BROTHERS HOLDINGS, INC. (US)
            SUN LIFE FINANCIAL, INC. (CA)
            STANDARD LIFE PLC (GB)
            CNCE (FR)
            NOMURA HOLDINGS, INC. (JP)
            THE DEPOSITORY TRUST COMPANY (US)
            MASSACHUSETTS MUTUAL LIFE INSUR. (US)
            ING GROEP N.V. (NL)
            BRANDES INVESTMENT PARTNERS, L.P. (US)
            UNICREDITO ITALIANO SPA (IT)
            DEPOSIT INSURANCE CORPORATION OF JP (JP)
            VERENIGING AEGON (NL)
            BNP PARIBAS (FR)
            AFFILIATED MANAGERS GROUP, INC. (US)
            RESONA HOLDINGS, INC. (JP)
            CAPITAL GROUP INTERNATIONAL, INC.(US)
            CHINA PETROCHEMICAL GROUP CO. (CN)
            *according to the scientific paper The network of global corporate control

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:40 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            reggie: Hopefully this can be accomplished without violence, but I doubt the vast unrepresented public majority can be denied much longer. The longer change is delayed, the bigger and more angry the movement will become. We must reinstall an economic system and real justice that works for everyone SOON. This is the stuff revolution is made of.

            HTC: Fortunately, these morons aren't representative of the "vast unrepresented public" nor do they represent traditional American values, so we needn't be alarmed by their "protest."

            Furthermore, they lack the spine to engage in a violent revolution and would run for cover the minute the first of them caught a bullet.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:34 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: You say this to the King of Cut and Paste?...to Tiny Yurl himself? Laughable.

            HTC: No, what's laughable is that you don't seem to know the difference between plagiarism and reposting something with the original author getting the credit for his own work.

            I only do the latter; you do a lot of the former.

            It's not "personal insult" when it's true.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:44 pm on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:17 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            reggie, good post.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:37 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC @ JB: Surely you know by now how much Bronco likes to Borrow(itz) from the creativity of others.
            ---------------------
            You say this to the King of Cut and Paste?...to Tiny Yurl himself? Laughable.
            Oh, and I see you're still slinging the personal insults like nunchakus. bill39 stated last week that 99% of the insults come from Liberal/Progressives. Have you joined them? And just who are they? Ain't none here that I can see. Ya see, grrrr-asshopper, it's a common Conservative perspective: anyone who disagrees or doesn't like what Conservatives say are Leftiies and communists.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:26 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            On Bull$hit:

            Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1RO93OS0Sk&feature=related

            Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_c8-CfZtg&feature=related

             
          • reggie posted at 10:17 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            reggie Posts: 88

            Although the right has been trying hard to point out an outside force funding/leading the OWS movement (like the corporate money funded and Repub led tea party) none has been identified. Neither has the OWS brought guns openly to staged events, or shouted down opposing voices in town hall meetings, or tried to blame the least powerful in society for the current lopsided distribution of wealth and income resulting from our unfair economic system. Corporate media ignored OWS as long as possible, unlike the outsized coverage of the T.P. not only on Fox, but also on all other "liberal" corporate media.

            Springing up everywhere, apparenty spontaneously, this looks like the return of populism, if so, these are perilous times. It is not possible to know the outcome of populist protest/upheaval, but neither party want's to find out because neither party represents the huge majority of population, only huge money gets a seat at the table.

            I believe the Democratic party will be most effected by this real grassroots movement, and if the D party can be returned to their previous platform of representing people over money they may continue as one of the two major parties in the U.S. If not, a new party will arise to fill this long abandoned and necessary role, and Dems will fade away like others have in the past.

            The movement is growing quickly, but the participants cannot fade into the background because they cannot return to their/our previous lifestyle, or even maintain their/our current status even when employeed as few jobs pay a middle class wage. As more and more fall into poverty under the lie of supply side economics, more will join this movement out of self preservation.

            Hopefully this can be accomplished without violence, but I doubt the vast unrepresented public majority can be denied much longer. The longer change is delayed, the bigger and more angry the movement will become. We must reinstall an economic system and real justice that works for everyone SOON. This is the stuff revolution is made of.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 9:19 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: " It is foolish to focus almost exclusively upon "corporate greed" when the greed of the electorate far surpasses it and is responsible for 90% of the fiscal recklessness which will destroy us."

            Whew! I thought you were going to slam the last 50 years of Congress and POTUS and their inability to be Wise after all the Political Debating of this and that.......So it's us? Probably not you, however? Just us?
            Especially any Democrat-Progressive-Socialist-Commie-Pinkos who refuse to listen to the Captains of Industry in a Father Knows Best sort of Reality?

            P.S. Sorry you had to sell the plane.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:09 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            JBSTONE: Bronco, do you have stock in the Borowitz Report....???

            HTC: Surely you know by now how much Bronco likes to Borrow(itz) from the creativity of others.

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 8:53 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            @JBSTONE- you posted from Frank's article: If those are all true, aren't the Jews part of the 99% as well.....???
            A. 2%. The answer is obvious in the last paragraph of Franks's 1st grade mathematical demonstration when he states "the nation's 98 percent who are staying home minding their own business." All that fightin' coffee has your math fuzzy this morning. Would you like a green tea instead?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:48 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            "A bear, a mountain lion, and a monkey walk into a bar........this isn't a joke, this is Ohio!" WSJ

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:37 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            who new: "No one sector, no one group, no one financial practice, no one piece of legislation, created our economic nightmare. It was massive, collective greed. As a society, we methodically turned luxuries into necessities, privileges into rights, and rewards into entitlements. We have no one to blame for this disaster, other than ourselves.”

            HTC: That's been my point from day one. It is foolish to focus almost exclusively upon "corporate greed" when the greed of the electorate far surpasses it and is responsible for 90% of the fiscal recklessness which will destroy us.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:31 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            OH WILBER: Constitution is inherently progressive

            HTC: Thank you for posting that. I don't give you enough credit for being an even bigger bull$hitter than Bronco and Rob123.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 8:23 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            The OWS Anthem....

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQcud0mMC3

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 8:14 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco, do you have stock in the Borowitz Report....???

            www.borowitzreport.com/2011/10/17/a-letter-from-goldman-sachs/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:11 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rick Spencer posted at 9:57 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011

            HTC: Excellent post!

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 8:08 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            From Frank's Article:

            “I think that the Zionist Jews who are running these big banks and our Federal Reserve, which is not run by the federal government, I think they need to be run out of this country.” This was announced in a TV interview by a woman who was a substitute teacher in Los Angeles. She was subsequently fired, although several other teachers who have made similar comments remain on the payroll.

            “You’re a bum, Jew.” This caustic comment was spoken ironically by someone who was camped out on the street with no apparent means of support!

            A black protester claimed, “The smallest group in America controls the money, media and all other things. The fingerprints belong to the Jewish bankers. I am against Jews who rob America. They are 1 percent who control America.”

            If those are all true, aren't the Jews part of the 99% as well.....???

             
          • bill39 posted at 7:08 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            bill39 Posts: 1039

            OH WILBER posted at 10:23 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            What a line of BS written by a pair of true liberals trying to bring credability to their movement. Except the first sentence of the first paragraph, which is true.

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 5:50 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            @who knew? I have an extensive harmonica collection for every key. Yes I'm proud to be an American but because I can perform piano and harmonica at the same time, what tune would you wish to have me perform for your funeral?

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 5:22 am on Mon, Oct 24, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            @who knew? You posted-By the way, Oh Wilber, I believe the views expressed in the article you posted are the antithesis of the Constitution.

            You must tell this immediately to Colonel Klink. I also love to play German Hohner harmonicas because the notes bend so well. I can even play some "devil music" progressive styles that would get a young soldier in the Revolutionary War hung for playing. The Hohner Marine Band version worked well when a soldier ran out of bullets. You would not want to be hit by a progressive harmonica player in a tavern brawl.

             
          • who new posted at 11:34 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            who new Posts: 367

            I hope everyone had the opportunity to contrast Morrie Shechtman’s view of Occupy Wall Street with Frank’s in today’s Interlake.

            Frank sensationalizes insignificant events or people to evoke outrage by his readers-

            “You’re a bum, Jew.” This caustic comment was spoken ironically by someone who was camped out on the street with no apparent means of support!

            A black protester claimed, “The smallest group in America controls the money, media and all other things. The fingerprints belong to the Jewish bankers. I am against Jews who rob America. They are 1 percent who control America.””

            Compare that to looking at the big picture by Morrie-

            “What it is about, is a concerted attempt to avoid the pain of looking at, and taking ownership of, all of our culpability in self-indulgently spending ourselves into communal bankruptcy.

            No one sector, no one group, no one financial practice, no one piece of legislation, created our economic nightmare. It was massive, collective greed. As a society, we methodically turned luxuries into necessities, privileges into rights, and rewards into entitlements. We have no one to blame for this disaster, other than ourselves.”

            Think big, Frank, like Morrie.

            http://www.dailyinterlake.com/opinion/article_afd9c1ec-fd33-11e0-80ef-001cc4c03286.html

            By the way, Oh Wilber, I believe the views expressed in the article you posted are the antithesis of the Constitution.

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 10:23 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            Constitution is inherently progressive
            October 11 by Antoinette

            in Current News and Opinion

            JOHN PODESTA & JOHN HALPIN/Politico

            Progressives disagree strongly with tea party views on government, taxation, public spending, regulations and social welfare policies. But we credit the movement for focusing public debate on our nation's history, the Constitution and the core beliefs that shape American life.

            This conversation is long overdue - and too often dominated by narrow interpretations of what makes America great.

            Since our nation's founding, progressives have drawn on the Declaration of Independence's inspirational values of human liberty and equality in their own search for social justice and freedom. They take to heart the constitutional promise that "We the People" are the ultimate source of political power and legitimacy and that a strong national government is necessary to "establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty."

            Successive generations of progressives worked to turn these values into practice and give meaning to the American dream, by creating full equality and citizenship under law and expanding the right to vote. We sought to ensure that our national government has the power and resources necessary to protect our people, develop our economy and secure a better life for all Americans.

            As progressives, we believe in using the ingenuity of the private sector and the positive power of government to advance common purposes and increase freedom and opportunity. This framework of mutually reinforcing public, private and individual actions has served us well for more than two centuries. It is the essence of the constitutional promise of a never-ending search for "a more perfect union."

            Coupled with basic beliefs in fair play, openness, cooperation and human dignity, it is this progressive vision that in the past century helped build the strongest economy in history and allowed millions to move out of poverty and into the middle class. It is the basis for American peace and prosperity as well as greater global cooperation in the postwar era.

            So why do conservatives continue to insist that progressives are opposed to constitutional values and American traditions? Primarily because progressives since the late 19th century rejected the conservative interpretation of the Constitution as an unchangeable document that endorses laissez-faire capitalism and prohibits government efforts to provide a better existence for all Americans.

            Progressives rightly charge that conservatives often mask social Darwinism and a dog-eat-dog mentality in a cloak of liberty, ignoring the needs of the least well-off and the nation as a whole.

            As President Franklin D. Roosevelt said in his 1944 address to Congress, "We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. 'Necessitous men are not free men.' People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made."

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 9:57 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            Frank: In my opinion, this is one of the best depictions by anyone about a fringe of the Progressive movement going nutty (or at least a bit more nutty than usual). Their 'occupation' in different cities surely bolsters Hayek's observation that the social justice Progressives, AKA Liberal Donkeys, are seeking is an empty suit. They only want what others have earned. The hard work of earning seems to be an unfair, and largely untrod road for them to obtain wealth, let alone a normal living. Their sense of entitlement is only exceeded by the falseness of their argument, if one can actually find a logical argument by any of them during their frequent media appearances. The best that I can assign to them as a group is graphically outlined in a short essay by Harry G. Frankfurt from some years ago and fits them as their skin fits their body. I challenge the readers to a better description of these 'citizens' than the definitions put forth by Dr. Frankfurt. I would also hope that none of my fellow readers of Frank's columns would fall prey to the disease diagnosed by Frankfurt; but, it does seem to be an epidemic of abnormal proportions among certain groups, doesn't it?

            (please note that the post would not accept the title in its entirety so I had to make substitutions that are readily understood). RLS

            ON B... S...
            by
            Harry G. Frankfurt
            *
            Now, here is a little writing of 67 pages that is absolutely delightful. Frankfurt begins the first sentence of the book by declaring "One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much b... s...." At our age we can certainly agree, but do we have a clear understanding of what b... s... is, or why there is so much of it? If that intrigues you, then this is the read for you.

            Frankfurt begins by developing a theoretical understanding through philosophical analysis of what it is. He does not consider the misuses of the term in one's everyday vocabulary. Rather, he focuses upon how and why it has become so prevalent, and the distinction between a liar and a b...s...ter, given their sincerity when showering us with their thoughts.
            *
            The crux of this distinction according to Frankfurt is "Both represent themselves falsely as endeavoring to communicate the truth." Development of this argument makes fascinating reading and has major applications to one's understanding of public officials, talking heads, news reporting, and, unfortunately, friends. Frankfurt suggests that b...s... becomes unavoidable when one is required to talk without knowing what he is talking about. His final thought is that sincerity itself is b...s... given the nature of other things. I will not elaborate further as that would ruin your study of this disease that is so common and has no known cure. But, I can guarantee that by reading this analysis you will be able to distinguish b...s... for what it is, and those who are the main propagators.
            *
            Harry G. Frankfurt is a renowned moral philosopher and Professor Emeritus at Princeton University, and his work is serious even when considering this, heretofore, somewhat forbidden subject. As always, enjoy!

            RLS

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:48 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            The following is a letter released today by Lloyd Blankfein, the chairman of banking giant Goldman Sachs:

            Dear Investor:

            Up until now, Goldman Sachs has been silent on the subject of the protest movement known as Occupy Wall Street. That does not mean, however, that it has not been very much on our minds. As thousands have gathered in Lower Manhattan, passionately expressing their deep discontent with the status quo, we have taken note of these protests. And we have asked ourselves this question:

            How can we make money off them?

            The answer is the newly launched Goldman Sachs Global Rage Fund, whose investment objective is to monetize the Occupy Wall Street protests as they spread around the world. At Goldman, we recognize that the capitalist system as we know it is circling the drain – but there’s plenty of money to be made on the way down.

            The Rage Fund will seek out opportunities to invest in products that are poised to benefit from the spreading protests, from police batons and barricades to stun guns and forehead bandages. Furthermore, as clashes between police and protesters turn ever more violent, we are making significant bets on companies that manufacture replacements for broken windows and overturned cars, as well as the raw materials necessary for the construction and incineration of effigies.

            It would be tempting, at a time like this, to say “Let them eat cake.” But at Goldman, we are actively seeking to corner the market in cake futures. We project that through our aggressive market manipulation, the price of a piece of cake will quadruple by the end of 2011.

            Please contact your Goldman representative for a full prospectus. As the world descends into a Darwinian free-for-all, the Goldman Sachs Rage Fund is a great way to tell the protesters, “Occupy this.” We haven’t felt so good about something we’ve sold since our souls.

            Sincerely,

            Lloyd Blankfein

            Chairman, Goldman Sachs

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:41 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Claus, OH WILBER's post with the YouTube site was my point.

             
          • smackya posted at 8:06 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            smackya Posts: 946

            great story Frank.............................................

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 7:33 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            @HTC- you posted:OH WILBER: The OWS demonstrators are all pointing out the problems with the big banks.and you should listen more closely to what they are saying.
            HTC: All I've heard the OWS demonstrators say is that the banks have ripped them off and are holding them down. Nothing more definitive than that. If you've heard otherwise, please share it.

            OH WILBER- I would love to explain to you why I do not like to put my money in the big banks such as Bank of America, which started in your lovely city of San Francisco, but it may take too long to explain it to you. You can always call me at work if you don't mind the 40 minute wait and I will try to explain it in less than the 280 seconds call time I am supposed to stay below with banking customers. I personally prefer Glacier Bank who refused to sell out to BOA, as well as the Whitefish Federal Credit Union. I get freechecking, no debit card fees, no online banking fees, no statement fees, no check imaging fees, no debit card replacement fees or loan application fees. Banking locally is good our local economy and you can experience courteous and more reliable service from their employees.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:08 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            The Libyan transitional government announced today that Sharia law will be the basis for legislation and that any existing laws which violate Sharia law are hereby declared null and void.

            Just what we needed in that area - another theocracy.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:17 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Relax, HTC! Articles like this help us poor 99% understand your Angst.

            HTC: No angst - I don't have dependent children and I sold my plane a long time ago.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:14 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            OH WILBER: The OWS demonstrators are all pointing out the problems with the big banks.and you should listen more closely to what they are saying.

            HTC: All I've heard the OWS demonstrators say is that the banks have ripped them off and are holding them down. Nothing more definitive than that. If you've heard otherwise, please share it.

             
          • Claus posted at 6:06 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Claus Posts: 392

            @Claus- Looking at your photo through Photo Shop reveals more of a resemblance to an anglo-saxon skull with a burn't scarred face.

            I am redacted. Actually, the photo comes from a book called "The Commissar Vanishes: The Falsification of Photographs and Art in Stalin's Russia".

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 5:35 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            @Frank Miele- I counted seven occurances of the word jew in your column, eight if we can include your photo. I do recall a few jewish hippys from SF who felt they did not fit in. The SF hippy movement was not generally accepted by the counter-cultures of other cities at the time. In other cities and small towns across the US there was another movement known as the"freaks" who were known for their individualism and defiance of authority. The "freaks" were as Frank Zappa stated, "superior to the hippies." The "freaks" did not seek or desire to live in communes.

            For your listening pleasure: Ron Paul and Frank Zappa on the Danger of American Fascism
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLDzDklTRU&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL524AFCE3C187905D

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:10 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123 posted at 11:15 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011

            HTC: Try to come up with some material of your own, would you?

             
          • lousia posted at 4:22 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            lousia Posts: 196

            Thanks Frank, for a very well written column and thats just the way it goes, now they can blame the Jews again, its funny how some people never see their own mistakes, they just want and want- and take and take- then when things gone down ,then its someone fault again all over, but as long as they don't have to do something constructive and they can get it all free from someone elses hard labors thats great, but if it fails blame some one and be anti semitic that always helps your cause to;

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 3:34 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            @Claus- Looking at your photo through Photo Shop reveals more of a resemblance to an anglo-saxon skull with a burn't scarred face. Were you the "canary-in-the-coal-mine" sent by Frank to dig through the archives of the SF underground newspapers?

             
          • Claus posted at 1:24 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Claus Posts: 392

            The polar opposite of the Berkley Barb was San Francisco's "The Oracle".

            The Oracle of the City of San Francisco, also known as the San Francisco Oracle, was an underground newspaper published in 12 issues from September 20, 1966, to February 1968 in the Haight-Ashbury neighborhood of that city.[1] Allen Cohen (1940–2004), the editor during the paper's most vibrant period, and Michael Bowen, the art director, were among the founders of the publication. The Oracle was an early member of the Underground Press Syndicate.
            The Oracle combined poetry, spirituality, and multicultural interests with psychedelic design, reflecting and shaping the countercultural community as it developed in the Haight-Ashbury. It was arguably the outstanding example of psychedelia within the countercultural "underground" press, noted for experimental multicolored design. Oracle contributors included many significant San Francisco–area artists of the time, including Bruce Conner and Rick Griffin. It featured such beat writers as Allen Ginsberg, Gary Snyder, Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Michael McClure.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Oracle

             
          • Claus posted at 1:17 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Claus Posts: 392

            I found this rather amusing:

            The Berkeley Barb

            The newspaper was founded in August 1965 by Max Scherr, who had earlier been the owner of the Steppenwolf bar in Berkeley. Scherr was the editor from the newspaper's inception until the mid-1970s.
            The Barb carried a great deal of political news, particularly concerning the Vietnam War and local political events surrounding the University of California. It also served as a venue for music advertisements and was among the first of the underground papers to carry an extensive classified ad section in which explicit personal sexual advertisements were posted. Eventually about a third of the paper was occupied by various forms of sexual advertising: as well as the personals there were ads for X-rated films, pornographic bookstores, mail order novelties and classifieds for models and massage, all both gay and straight. Gratuitous photos of nude models spilled over into the news section. The radical politics + sex formula worked, and the Barb was one of the top-selling underground papers in the nation.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Barb

            It started out as an Marxists revolutionary publication that took itself oh so seriously. Perhaps its history helps partly explains why the Left takes its sexual peculiarities oh so seriously nowadays.

             
          • Claus posted at 1:09 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Claus Posts: 392

            Here's something I found amusing:

            The Berkeley Barb

            The newspaper was founded in August 1965 by Max Scherr, who had earlier been the owner of the Steppenwolf bar in Berkeley. Scherr was the editor from the newspaper's inception until the mid-1970s.
            The Barb carried a great deal of political news, particularly concerning the Vietnam War and local political events surrounding the University of California. It also served as a venue for music advertisements and was among the first of the underground papers to carry an extensive classified ad section in which explicit personal sexual advertisements were posted. Eventually about a third of the paper was occupied by various forms of sexual advertising: as well as the personals there were ads for X-rated films, pornographic bookstores, mail order novelties and classifieds for models and massage, all both gay and straight. Gratuitous photos of nude models spilled over into the news section. The radical politics + sex formula worked, and the Barb was one of the top-selling underground papers in the nation.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Barb

            This reads almost like a history of the New Left in the Bay Area. In the beginning it was a hardcore Marxist revolutionary publication, that took itself oh so seriously. Perhaps, it's evolution partly explains why the Left takes its sexual "peculiarities" so seriously.

             
          • Claus posted at 12:48 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Claus Posts: 392

            I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere, Bronco, and that you'll get back to us as soon as you remember what it is.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:26 pm on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Fascism
            Fascism ( /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. TO ACHIEVE THIS, FASCISTS PURGE FORCES, IDEAS, PEOPLE, AND SYSTEMS DEEMED TO BE THE CAUSE OF DECADENCE AND DEGENERATION. FASCISTS BELIEVE THAT A NATION REQUIRES STRONG LEADERSHIP, SINGULAR COLLECTIVE IDENTITY, AND THE WILL AND ABILITY TO COMMIT VIOLENCE AND WAGE WAR IN ORDER TO KEEP THE NATION STRONG. IT advocates the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy (such as eugenics). A fascist state's government is led by a supreme leader who exercises a dictatorship over the fascist movement, the government, and other institutions of the state. Discipline and obedience to the leader is demanded by the fascist movement to followers and subjects of a fascist state and is promoted through encouraging comradeship and commitment of followers and subjects. Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:29 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            Relax, HTC! Articles like this help us poor 99% understand your Angst.

            http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204346104576638981631627402.html?KEYWORDS=The+Wild+Ride+of+

            The Wild Ride of the 1%

            "The Siegels took their first hard look at their own lifestyle. They fired 14 of their 15 housekeepers and lost their private chef, named "chef Jeff." They pulled their kids out of private school and put them in the local public school.

            Ms. Siegel has started a nonprofit called ThriftMart, a mega thrift-store that sells donated clothes—many from her own closet—and other items for $1.

            She does miss one luxury—the Gulfstream. After they defaulted on the $8 million jet loan, the banks seized the plane. The Siegels can use it only occasionally, with the banks' permission.

            Recently, the family boarded a commercial flight for a vacation, making for some confusion. One of the kids looked around the crowded cabin and asked, "Mom, what are all these strangers doing on our plane?"

            —Adapted from "The High-Beta Rich: How the Manic Wealthy Will Take Us to the Next Boom, Bubble, and Bust," to be published Nov. 1 by Crown Business.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:15 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            HTC: posted at 9:37 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.
            It's way more complicated than that.....

            "(Un)occupy Albuquerque Connects Corporate Greed to Fight for Native Land"
            Sunday 23 October 2011
            I guess it is fair to say: " It's pretty funny how you continually strut your feathers of ignorance like a proud peacock."
            __________________________________________________________________________
            .

             
          • OH WILBER posted at 11:14 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            OH WILBER Posts: 275

            In 2014, Social Security Benefits, Veterans Benefits and other Federal agencies will finally end the delivery of paper checks. Those living on a fixed income would be required to own and maintain a computer or go to the library to print out their statements to avoid a monthly maintenence fee as well as the check image fees. What is extremely upsetting to this 'old hippy' is listening to people calling me at work to troubleshoot their on line banking while pointing out that they are using the correct login id and password, but can see somebody elses accounts. Of course this is the Bank of America's online banking problem and because it is my personal choice, I do not keep my money there. The OWS demonstrators are all pointing out the problems with the big banks.and you should listen more closely to what they are saying.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 10:43 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Right on Frank. The nut jobs calling themselves the 99% finally listed their "demands". Gov't pays everyone for everything, and gives them jobs too? Bizarre. They demand higher taxes on the wealthy and no taxes for everyone else? I can see the wealthy cashing-out and leaving now. About the largest lesson they really need right now is personal hygiene, and being environmentally friendly to the parks/land they're soiling with their poop and trash. Who is feeding these losers anyway?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:22 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            For your viewing and listening pleasure:

            http://commieblaster.com/commietunes/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:06 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            SorrySOB posted at 9:18 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011

            HTC: It's pretty funny how you continually strut your feathers of ignorance like a proud peacock.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:37 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: As I try to understand this weeks 2 cents, and it's attempt to pin down and demonize the OWS....

            HTC: I admire your persistence in your efforts to finally get a grasp of the obvious.

            Rob123: ....meaning small and midsize banks (who pay into FDIC) and Tax Payers (who cover the shortages if something REALLY big starts to fail) would be on the hook for these Multi-million dollar a year, 1% executives with their Ivy League MBAs and their monster estates.

            HTC: Well, since the 1% pay 40% of the income taxes, and 47% of America pays no income taxes, it looks like the 1% will be doing most of that taxpayer-funded bailout. Seems fair to me.

             
          • SorrySOB posted at 9:18 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            SorrySOB Posts: 484

            Darn. I saw your headline there Frank and I thought you were finally coming clean to these poor saps that actually believe your rhetoric. No such luck.

             
          • Claus posted at 9:14 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Claus Posts: 392

            Let me just say that as a Zionist Conspirator I am not responsible for the rain on this weekend's season hunting opener. It is completely coincidental that while I was in the field Saturday morning that it was dry as a bone, and that the rain started shortly after I got home, and put on my jammies for some serious internet opining.

             
          • nailheadtom posted at 8:30 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            nailheadtom Posts: 57

            Anarchy is the absence of government and anarchists are opposed to government. But the words are bandied about as a reference to any form of political thought to which the user is opposed but cannot describe. In current circumstances anarchy is used in a pejorative sense, the lack of an all-powerful state being an intolerable situation to those whose minds have been formed in state-controlled classrooms and by the state licensed media. The "tea party" activists slide toward the anarchist position far more than the OWS ninnies, but not far enough.

             
          • Otis posted at 6:48 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Otis Posts: 58

            Frank, do you ride all of your horses so hard & so long that the fall down dead under you?

            That seems to be your pattern lately – just to be clear, I think that your piece on Palin as anagram for her “plain” thinking and speaking was the best single article on her. I agree and would point out that that was true except when she got nervous and used Ten Dollar words when 5 cent words would do. The over intellectualism then severely detracted from her message………
            But it made work for Tina Fey.

            How many articles have you done on John Dewey or Bill Ayers? More than either of them deserve, would be my answer.

            Ditto this group of Socialist miscreants who blame Wall Street for the actions of an ever increasing Fascist government.

            What remains to be seen is will 2012 be 1968 all over again?

            Personally, I doubt it. I think that the general population’s knowledge of their own history has been so polluted by your industry – the Main Stream Media. What began with Horace Greeley has continued unabated.

            Figure out WHO he really was? What he believed and promoted?

            That is a stable of horses that you can ride like the Pony Express…………..

            Start here:

            http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Federalism-Felix-Morley/dp/0913966878/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319372489&sr=8-1

            To paraphrase James Carville – “It’s the Federalism, stupid!”

             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:08 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            Rob123 Posts: 6574

            As I try to understand this weeks 2 cents, and it's attempt to pin down and demonize the OWS using a couple of examples pulled out of the air, I wonder:
            Back here in Real Time, in the past week, Bank of America lost 2 more places in the great Credit Rating Game, and is real close to a Chapter 11 scenario. Also this week, Bank of America devised a plan that would actually monetize around $75 Trillion of Derivatives it has. Which would put it's Casino like $75T 'off book' exposure firmly within the FDIC, meaning small and midsize banks (who pay into FDIC) and Tax Payers (who cover the shortages if something REALLY big starts to fail) would be on the hook for these Multi-million dollar a year, 1% executives with their Ivy League MBAs and their monster estates.

            What & Who are you actually defending, Frank? Look at the compensation packages for the 'Cream of the Crop', irrespective of the consequences of their 'bets' in out lying years. It doesn't make sense, IMHO.

             
          • who new posted at 12:50 am on Sun, Oct 23, 2011.

            who new Posts: 367

            “The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs, and explosions, and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, ideas, prejudices, to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejud