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Evil exists; so does good

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Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:00 pm | Updated: 1:26 pm, Tue Apr 22, 2014.

There is really no possibility of writing about anything this weekend other than the school shooting that occurred on Friday in Newtown, Conn.

On the other hand, there is no possibility of writing about the cold-blooded murder of young children in any way that makes sense. Our human psyche, which should be ready for anything based upon the brutal history of our species, still reels in shock and disbelief when pure evil interjects itself into everyday life.

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          Welcome to the discussion.

          217 comments:

          • hollyscott posted at 9:34 am on Mon, Dec 31, 2012.

            hollyscott Posts: 102

            since this is happening right now, it's something to be considered: SanBernardino CA just went bankrupt, the crime, killings, looting has skyrocketed. the city officials asked it's citizens to lock their doors and arm themselves - the city could not be counted on to respond. Many many cities of CA are bankrupt. illegals make up more then half of the population - illegals have set up corrupt network to drain the system (or citizens) - and bring their cartel crime to US. right now our President warns on a daily basis America is on a fiscal cliff. And of course the US has trillions of debt. AND illegals are overtaking OR, WA, MI, IL, on on on. I would not count on any government protecting your family if what is happening in CA happens in your home town. they won't.
            American's can take action to stop some of the crime and invasion:
            Join Numbers USA. They are for ENFORCING our immigration laws, lowering the work visas, anchor babies, mandatory use of e-verify, etc. They rate each candidate on immigration issues and they have free faxes that you can send to the White House, your Congress & Representatives. It’s easy & free, please join!!!
            Check out Numbers USA.
            Feel free to repost. ..

            PS: do not let illegals get a foot-hold in your community or it's over.

             
          • cuzican posted at 9:21 am on Fri, Dec 28, 2012.

            cuzican Posts: 231

            http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/

            Educational no matter what your stance on gun control is.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:50 pm on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            HTC: Now there's an archaic 'thinker' who needs to be replaced.

            I agree.....Not sure about turning schools into armed camps, with guards, but there are certainly a lot of teachers with the expertise and the politics, to do it.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 3:36 pm on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Mr. H. Before you drop your pants again, and see all of your investments go south of the border, would you consider reinvesting your capital in the new "HTC" high-tech car of the future that actually runs on compost? Imagine the smart-car for the family that requires all the latest gadgets, with at least four compost toilets built in with seat belts and with built in hands-free smart phone. You can take your family out to McDonalds constantly for happy meals every hour on the hour. Or do you still require lead for your huge military humvee?

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkGMY63FF3Q

             
          • Bronco posted at 2:25 pm on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: And, when the latter are outlawed, how will you type your drivel?
            ------------------------
            They're only going to confiscate the first six inches. I'll be just fine. You, however, will owe the government 3 more.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:42 pm on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: "When rape is outlawed, only outlaws will have penises.

            HTC: And, when the latter are outlawed, how will you type your drivel?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:39 pm on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: "In fact, newspaper headlines across the state flatly rejected militarizing Connecticut schools:"

            HTC: Yes, some people essentially prefer schools as killing fields, offering no real solutions of their own. How sad.

            Rob123: "Putnam Police Chief Rick Hayes called the proposal “scary,” noting that teachers can’t possibly have the kind of training necessary to safely handle large weapons."

            HTC: Now there's an archaic 'thinker' who needs to be replaced. I have taught many people, men and women and children, how to safely handle and shoot every kind of firearm available to citizens with nary a one who I wouldn't trust to own them living right next door to me; in fact, I'd sleep better knowing that I was surrounded by such neighbors.

            But then, I'm not an elitist pig like Chief Hayes. I was just a rank-and-file officer who, like most of them today serving on urban PDs, despise the liberal brain-damaged bureaucrats at that top of the chain in those big-city departments.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:38 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            A Guide to Mass Shootings in America
            There have been at least 62 in the last 30 years—and most of the killers got their guns legally.

            http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

            "When rape is outlawed, only outlaws will have penises.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:34 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328


            HTC: If IABD were my father, I'd have to change my last name.
            ---------------------------------
            I agree. High Tech Day doesn't roll off the tongue well. Sounds more like a frat party.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:03 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328


            Analysts: Climate Change Will Kill Christmas
            Written by: Brother Daren
            The North Pole
            Arctic Circle

            Just when you thought the war on Christmas was reaching its crescendo, word comes from the scientific community that Christmas is, in fact, doomed.

            According to climate scientists the world over, as the Earth warms, glaciers recede, ice melts, and sea levels rise. And few places are exhibiting such changes as The Arctic, which is also known as the home of Santa and his elves.

            “We began to notice some problems over a decade ago with the increase of elves falling prey to hungry polar bears,” Santa spokesperson, Stuffy Kowalski, told The Garlic Press. “Apparently, as the icy habitat of the polar bears recedes, they have been encroaching on our property with greater frequency–and with ever-increasing deadly consequences to our dwindling population,” Stuffy continued.

            In fact, The Garlic Press got hold of some of the figures Stuffy was referring to and the numbers are not pretty. While from 1950-1990 a total of seven elves fell victim to polar bears–five of the fatalities occurring more than five miles from the Christmas workshop–more than seventy-three elves have met their demise at the jaws of the white beasts since then. And many of those attacks have happened just outside Santa’s property. And just recently, a polar bear managed to get inside the workshop itself and bite the head off of a worker while he was putting together an X-Box 360 for little Jimmy in Spokane.

            “Increasingly, more and more elves are abandoning Santa’s workshop to seek employment in less hostile locales,” Stuffy lamented, “And because the Christian population which we serve is loathe to even think about the realities of procreation, we have no genitals with which to increase our population on our own.”

            As if the increasing threat of decapitation by polar bear wasn’t enough, a more serious consequence of climate change is the real problem: the disappearing ice itself.

            Arctic circle powers such as the United States, Russia, Canada, and Scandinavian states are all positioning themselves to claim rights to an ever-increasing Arctic Ocean which is quickly replacing what dwindling ice remains. And it now looks as if that which is dooming the polar bear to extinction will spell the demise of what has been home to Santa and his elves for centuries.

            “We have been discussing many options,” Stuffy informed The Garlic Press. “Some arctic countries have been very generous with offering to relocate the entire Christmas operation. Russia is keen to have us move to Siberia, which already has in place a substantial workforce which could augment our decreasing elf staff. Canada, too, has offered a facility near Thunder Bay,” Stuffy cited some of the offers Santa and his team of elvish advisers were considering. “We had to pass on the offer from The United States, however,” Stuffy stated. “Though the land in Alaska the US government offered is itself spacious, and the proposed facilities were top notch, Santa complained that he could see Sarah Palin’s house from his window. And the real problem with relocating the Christmas operation to another country is that the neutrality of Santa will be lost. How would a Russian Santa be received? Or even a Canadian? Okay, everyone loves the Canadians, true. Even I have a Canada flag patch on my pack when I hike across Europe. But who wants to risk politicizing Christmas? I mean, of course, besides the Fox network.”

            In light of these seemingly insurmountable challenges, the one option which no one at The Pole seems willing to discuss openly–yet–is retirement.

            While refusing to speak with The Garlic Press on the record, a certain heavyset jolly man with a long, white beard in a red suit told The Garlic Press that an offer on the table from one of the world’s largest oil corporations was under serious consideration.

            “Look,” The man said in as jolly a manner as he could muster,”despite the fact that truth and reality do not go hand in hand with Christians or Christmas, as they say ‘the sleigh has left the reindeer stable’. In other words, we can’t stop this. More elves will die from polar bear attacks leading up to the eventual loss of all Arctic ice. Where I now sit will be part of Earth’s newest ocean. And Exxon has offered us all a beautiful island in the Pacific on which we may retire in exchange for the rights to the oil they suspect lies underneath us. We can’t just dismiss the offer. We have to consider our future. And what risk is there of a Pacific island being flooded?”

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:48 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/12/22/1373121/connecticut-school-officials-blast-nras-reaction-to-newtown/

            "In fact, newspaper headlines across the state flatly rejected militarizing Connecticut schools:"

            "Putnam Police Chief Rick Hayes called the proposal “scary,” noting that teachers can’t possibly have the kind of training necessary to safely handle large weapons."

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:33 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Pete: Obama Uses Funeral Service to Talk About Himself

            HTC: It really cracks me up every time IABD calls me a narcissist, even though he insists that the world's all-time biggest narcissist was the "only choice" on November 6.

            If IABD were my father, I'd have to change my last name.

             
          • Pete posted at 9:22 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Obama Uses Funeral Service to Talk About Himself

            http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-uses-funeral-service-talk-about-himself_690960.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:19 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Ah, the "religion of peace":

            Mob in Pakistan beats then sets mentally ill man on fire after he was accused of burning Koran
            December 22, 2012 | AP

            KARACHI, Pakistan – A mob in southern Pakistan stormed a police station to seize a mentally unstable Muslim man accused of burning a copy of Islam's holy book, beat him to death, and then set his body afire, police said Saturday.

            The case is likely to raise further concerns about the country's harsh blasphemy laws, which can result in a death sentence or life in prison to anyone found guilty. Critics say an accusation or investigation alone can lead to deaths, as people take the law into their own hands and kill those accused of violating it. Police stations and even courts have been attacked by mobs.

            Local police official Bihar-ud-Din said police arrested the man on Friday after being informed by residents that he had burned a Koran inside a mosque where he had been staying for a night.

            An angry mob of more than 200 people then broke into the police station in the southern town of Dadu and took the accused man, who they say was under questioning. Din said police tried their best to save the man's life but were unable to stop the furious crowd.

            He said that police had arrested 30 people for suspected involvement in the attack, while the head of the local police station and seven officers had been suspended.

            Past attempts by governments in predominantly Muslim Pakistan to review these laws have met with violent opposition from hardline Islamist parties.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:43 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            California Tax Increases Stir Debate About Exodus
            December 22, 2012

            A vote last month that makes Californians among the highest-taxed residents in the country is sparking debate about whether the Democrat-back initiative will backfire, by forcing high-earners to join a long exodus from the cash-strapped state.

            Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown successfully pushed the tax increase by suggesting that high-earners must shoulder the largest burden in bailing out the state, particularly its debt-ridden public school system.

            However, high unemployment and government debt have already sent residents fleeing in large numbers – an estimated 225,000 annually for the past 10 years.

            And the recently passed tax increase for families making more than $250,000 each year could further shrink the tax base for California, whose 2012 budget deficit is projected to hit $28 billion.

            Much of the debate has raged among California advocacy groups and in the editorial pages of the state’s biggest and most influential newspapers.

            “More is never enough for these people,” Kris Vosburgh, executive director of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Assoc., said about the Democrat-backed increase. “It’s hard to believe people will not leave.”

            Vosburgh said his group is not an advocate for the wealthy and argued the tax increase atop other bad economic factors – including high gas and sales taxes – also have small and large businesses packing.

            “With high taxes and heavy regulations, it’s just difficult to produce those widgets at a lower price than somebody in, say, Texas,” he told FoxNews.com on Tuesday.

            Syndicated columnist Walter E. Williams wrote in The Orange County Register: “California politicians can fleece people in 2012, but there’s no guarantee they can do the same in 2013 and later years. People can leave.”

            Ex-Californians over the past decade have already put roughly $5.67 billion into Nevada’s economy as well as $4.96 billion into Arizona and $4.07 billion in Texas, according to Manhattan Institute study titled “The Great California Exodus: A Closer Look.”

            The September 2012 study -- based on data from the state and such federal agencies as the Internal Revenue Service – also argues that “chronic economic adversity,” including powerful unions, has driven away businesses.

            The liberal-leaning think thank California Budget Project declined to talk about the issue but points to a study that concluded Hollywood executives, Silicon Valley entrepreneurs or other higher-earning Californians will not leave, based on the aftermath of a 2005 so-called “millionaires tax” increase.

            Executive Director Chris Hoene told The Los Angeles Times that the Stanford Center of Poverty and Inequity study “dispels one of the most persistent myths about state tax policy.”

            The California tax increases that passed in November, known as Proposition 30, are expected to generate at least an additional $6 billion annually – and lay claim to 2012 income.

            The rate hikes range from 9.3 percent to 10.3 percent for families making $250,000 to 10.3 percent to 13.3 percent for families making at least $1 million annually.

            In addition, the top state-federal tax rate for Californians in 2013 would climb to 52 percent should Washington fail to resolve the looming fiscal crisis and federal rates return to those from the Clinton-era, according to a recent study from Lynchburg College’s School of Business and Economics, which takes into account tax increases related to ObamaCare.

            Among the most likely places of exile would be neighboring Nevada, which has no state income tax.

            Such an idea is not that far-fetched, considering California resident and pro golfer Tiger Woods famously took his millions to Florida, another of the seven U.S. states with no state income tax.

            The tax increases from Proposition 30, which also included a sales-tax hike, expire after seven years, but it might be too late.

            Dan Walthers, a columnist for The Sacramento Bee, said it’s too early to tell but argued California-based Google is using an offshore address to avoid taxes on overseas income so “wouldn’t Google millionaires also avoid state taxes on themselves if they could?”

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/22/new-tax-increase-in-california-stirs-debate-about-adding-to-exodus/#ixzz2FnPJVTAY

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:34 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: '...there were two armed law enforcement agents at Columbine High School during the 1999 armed attack by two students that killed 15 people.
            “They twice engaged and fired at Eric Harris [one of the assailants] in an effort to stop the shooting, but were unsuccessful because they were outgunned by the assault weapons wielded by the two teens,” VPC executive director Josh Sugarmann said in a statement.'

            HTC: You really must find some credible sources to replace such long-ago discredited anti-gun groups such as the VPC.

            There were not two cops stationed at the school as they insinuate. There were two nearby when the shooting was called in, which enabled them to get there very quickly. They engaged one of the shooters just outside the school entrance; then, stopped, as they'd been trained to do, to wait for the SWAT team to arrive.

            That shooting is what made law enforcement strategic planners and tactical teams painfully aware of the many serious flaws in their approach to such situations. Those analyses have led to numerous revisions to training scenarios and tactics used since:

            http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-19-columbine-police-tactics_N.htm

            What continues to tie the hands of many law enforcement agencies, however, is emotionally lobotomized anti-gun city councilmen/aldermen and county commissioners who are so squeamish about 'assault' weapons that they won't even let cops have them. Some departments have been lucky enough to get them for their officers while many more only finally got at least one for each field supervisor. These fear-based liberal loonies in government don't even trust their own cops!

            Bronco: Also, Virginia Tech had its own police department and Ft. Hood was a military base.

            HTC: The Virginia Tech comparison is also seriously flawed as those murders occurrred in dormitories with cops still minutes away. That shooting also highlighted the lunacy of federal privacy laws which kept the school unaware of the fact that the shooter had been diagnosed with severe mental problems. Looney all-or-nothing liberal privacy-rights advocates (probably mentally ill themselves) have so far prevented any meaningful changes to those restrictions.

            As for Ft. Hood, soldiers are generally not allowed to be armed in most areas of the base and that was certainly true at Ft. Hood. Hasan knew that and ILLEGALLY took his weapons to an area where he knew that, like in a school environment, he'd be shooting fish in a barrel.

            Bronco: Why does the word 'assault' keep popping up at these school shootings?

            HTC: Because emotionally driven, cerebrally inhibited liberals invented it and keep using it to charge up the situation with as much fear as possible.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:37 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Also, Virginia Tech had its own police department and Ft. Hood was a military base.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:31 am on Sat, Dec 22, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Regarding the brilliant idea of armed guards at public schools:

            '...there were two armed law enforcement agents at Columbine High School during the 1999 armed attack by two students that killed 15 people.
            “They twice engaged and fired at Eric Harris [one of the assailants] in an effort to stop the shooting, but were unsuccessful because they were outgunned by the assault weapons wielded by the two teens,” VPC executive director Josh Sugarmann said in a statement.'

            Why does the word 'assault' keep popping up at these school shootings? And why is 'school shootings' even part of the American vernacular?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:55 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Pete: I can't see armed security as being a long term solution (nuts will simply move on to other soft targets) but since addressing the root causes of the problem is off limits in our current PC atmosphere, I guess this is the best we can do?

            HTC: I agree with you completely. It's sad, but given the lack of critical thinking skills in half of America, this undoubtedly is the best we can do right now.

             
          • kohana posted at 6:43 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            I think the world is ending this day, just not the way so many visualized.

            A Mellanie Phillips post:

            Into the abyss

            To an astonishing silence by the media on both sides of the pond, the US along with the UK and a number of European governments is leading the west into an abyss. I have repeatedly noted here that the US, UK and France helped bring to power in Egypt Islamic extremists hostile to the free world, and were threatening to do something very similar in Syria. Now they have indeed done so by recognising the Syrian National Council as the legitimate leader of the Syrian opposition.

            The thinking behind this is to designate the al-Qaeda linked Jabhat al-Nusra as a terrorist group, while supporting the Muslim Brotherhood – which dominates the Syrian National Council -- as a reasonable alternative. But this is the same catastrophic mistake the US et al have made in Egypt. For the Brotherhood are not a reasonable alternative to Islamic extremists hostile to the west. They are themselves Islamic extremists hostile to the west.

            The disastrous implications of this fundamental strategic mistake were spelled out in a forensic piece by Jonathan Spyer in the Jerusalem Post. As Spyer observed:‘The difference between the Salafis and the Muslim Brotherhood affiliated groups is one of degree, not of kind.‘... The focus on Jabhat al Nusra should not obscure the fact that the better-organized, non-Salafi, home grown, Muslim Brotherhood elements that the US is backing are no less anti-western and no less anti-Jewish.

            ‘Could things have been different? As with Egypt, perhaps, if the west had perceived the risks and opportunities clearly at the start. This might have triggered a vigorous policy of support for non-Islamist opposition and fighting elements, which were there.

            ‘The result is that the force now facing the retreating Assad regime is split between differing brands of Sunni Arab Islamism, some aligned with the west, some directly opposing it, but all holding fast to fundamentally anti-western ideologies.

            ’Barry Rubin spells out even more starkly the looming disaster for the west from its idiocy over Syria:

            ‘American intelligence agents in southern Turkey supervise the handover of weapons to the rebels. They make no attempt to stop arms from going to the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafists while they make no attempt to funnel the guns to moderates. The only restriction is that they not go to al-Qaeda-affiliated Salafists.

            ‘One day, those guns will be used to commit unspeakable atrocities against Christians and other minority groups just as they will be used to install an Islamist regime and to kill or intimidate its opponents.

            ’The mistake being made by the US and the rest is as deep-seated as it is egregious. The campaign in the west to promote the Muslim Brotherhood (to its motto: ‘Islam is the solution’ one obviously has to ask, ‘But what is the problem?’) as helpful allies against those who want to bring the west down has been making relentless and dismaying progress into the establishment for years – an establishment that refuses to see the Brothers for what they are, in essence because it refuses to acknowledge that what the west is now up against is a religious war. From that most profound and seminal error, all follows.

            But when you look at Barack Obama, you see another factor at work which is not simply the strategic stupidity that results from an appeasement mentality, nor a myopic view of the national interest, nor the unsurpassed arrogance and ignorance of cultural hubris, all of which drive western foreign policy.

            Just look at Obama’s favoured candidates for the two US administration positions central to the defence of the west. They are both people whose attitudes would in fact deeply endanger it still further. John Kerry, tipped to become Secretary of State, is an anti-war activist and left-wing fantasist who, despite serving as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations committee, is such a man-made global warming fanatic that he believes climate change is ‘as dangerous as any of the sort of real crises that we talk about’ ie, as dangerous as say, Syrian chemical weapons or a nuclear Iran.

            The record of Chuck Hagel, Obama’s favoured candidate for Defence Secretary, is more troubling still, as outlined here. He has consistently downplayed Iran’s terrorist record and the danger it poses to the free world. He consistently voted against sanctions on Iran to stop its pursuit of nuclear weapons capability; he voted against naming Iran’s Revolutionary Guards a terrorist organization; and he refused to sign a letter calling on the European Union similarly to name Hezbollah – which has the blood of countless Americans on its hands -- as a terrorist organisation. Instead, he advocates ‘engaging’ with Iran – ie, appeasement, which he prefers to parse as‘ “... a bridge-building process, an opportunity to better understand” others on the basis of “mutual self respect.”

            ’This is all of a piece with his attitudes towards Israel and the Jews. Not only is he associated with gross anti-Israel canards which reverse truth and lies, but he also said that ‘the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here...’‘up here’ meaning Washington.

            Whether or not these men are actually appointed is not the issue. The key point is that Obama wants to appoint them, from which we may infer that he believes they will enact his own vision of foreign and defence policy.

            What therefore is the factor that Obama brings to the west’s dismal foreign policy table as illustrated by these truly appalling choices? Malice. Against the west, and also against the ancient civilisation that lies at the heart of its moral codes. Factor that into the truly stupendous myopia and worse of Britain and Europe, and you are looking at the emergence of a new world order: the eclipse of the west, brought about by the unholy alliance between the Obama administration and death-wish Britain and Europe – and leaving Israel, once the forward salient of the west in the Middle East, emerging instead as the lonely and isolated defender of liberty in the face of the gathering Islamic storm.

            This is an article I have just posted on melaniephillips.com


             
          • Pete posted at 6:27 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            http://www.theblaze.com/stories/this-fiscal-cliff-skit-is-so-funny-its-depressing-what-about-just-spending-a-lot-less/

             
          • Pete posted at 5:45 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            I can't see armed security as being a long term solution (nuts will simply move on to other soft targets) but since addressing the root causes of the problem is off limits in our current PC atmosphere, I guess this is the best we can do? Welcome to America, where in our rush to be free of "values" we lose the very freedoms we value and plant the seeds of oppression.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:04 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            It's a beautiful day posted at 1:59 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012

            By golly I think Bronco found his soul mate. [scared]

             
          • Pete posted at 5:03 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Kerry for Secretary of State? I hope he wears a helmet.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:22 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            HTC: "I'm all for protecting our children rather than parasites."

            Why Ebenezer, is that you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_swaxOidGU

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:00 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Let's do the math. 100,000 public schools. Average three cops per school. Training and equipment = $2 billion. Salaries at $45,000 = $13.5 billion/year. Administration/benefits/on-going training = $3 billion
            That's $18 billion to get started. That's an additional $1200/year per family tax hike to pay for this.

            HTC: Using your numbers, the cost per year to put 3 cops in every public school would be $18B.

            The nanny state costs us $7.67B PER DAY. So, eliminate the nanny state and the yearly cost of protecting our school children only cost us what the nanny state consumes in a mere 2.34 DAYS.

            I'm all for protecting our children rather than parasites.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:59 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 10:55 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012

            IABD- A typical extreme right wing narcissistic dyslexic "idiot" actually uses the word "toidi" in place of 'pissing" while his pants are down in the commentary room.

            Bronco posted at 1:13 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            IABD- Likewise pardner...

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:13 pm on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Thanks, IABD! For taking the heat off me. I do get mentioned a lot in some posts directed at you though. ...flattered...

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:14 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            The National Rifle Association on Friday offered his vision of a nationwide program that would place armed security in every school desiring protection in response to last week's shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.
            "I call on Congress today to appropriate whatever is necessary to put armed police officers in every single school in this nation," Wayne LaPierre, the NRA's executive vice president, said at a press conference in Washington, D.C. There, he unveiled the National School Shield NRA Education and Training Emergency Response program, to be headed up by former Arkansas U.S. Rep. Asa Hutchinson.
            -------------------------
            Let's do the math. 100,000 public schools. Average three cops per school. Training and equipment = $2 billion. Salaries at $45,000 = $13.5 billion/year. Administration/benefits/on-going training = $3 billion
            That's $18 billion to get started. That's an additional $1200/year per family tax hike to pay for this.

            ...stopping gun violence at its root requires changes made on many fronts including gaming and in the media, LaPierre said, blaming video games such as "Mortal Kombat," "Grand Theft Auto," "Bulletstorm," "Splatterhouse" and an internet game called "Kindergarten Killer."
            -------------------------
            Scientists are baffled by Canadians' ability to watch movies and play video games and not shoot each other.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:04 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_5JdOm2Z6o&feature=youtu.be

            Be sure to watch through to the great Santa joke:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0inaaZWmcpo&feature=youtu.be

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:55 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            It's a beautiful day posted at 10:07 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012

            Apparently the only neuron left firing between your ears is stuck on the word "narcissism."

            Try switching it onto the word "idiot" and then look in the mirror for an example of the word.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:53 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            The faces of Obama supporters:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wu17stXxQE&feature=youtu.be

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:46 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

            "When marijuana is outlawed, only outlaws, fugitives, criminals, public enemies, outcasts, exiles, pariahs, bandits, robbers, and desperadoes will smoke weed."

            "When rape is outlawed, only outlaws will rape."

            "When murder is outlawed, only murderers will murder." (Actually, one isn't a murderer until one commits murder.) (Exception: crows)

             
          • who new posted at 10:45 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            who new Posts: 367

            I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a more politically stupid move than the House Republicans not supporting Boehner’s Plan B.

            I predict we will now go over the ‘Fiscal Cliff’, raising taxes on everyone, and next year Obama will propose restoring the Bush tax cuts to everyone except the top 2%. This will give Obama the appearance of being a tax cutter, as opposed to the Republicans, who would rather raise taxes on everyone except millionaires.

            Absolutely stunning.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 10:07 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Htc, Don't forget the training and the mental aptitude tests..

            http://psychcentral.com/quizzes/narcissistic.htm

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:36 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Don't forget the training and the mental aptitude tests...

            HTC: That "training and...mental aptitude" must be why Napolitano's DHS identified returning veterans as the greatest domestic threat to national security.

            Sure, let's require everyone to get some of that....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:46 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Anti-Second Amendment forces' worst nightmare: The Printable Gun

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ6Q3BfbVBU

            http://defensedistributed.com/

            http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/21/development-future-downloadable-guns-worries-activists/?test=latestnews

            Imagine: Print a gun, use it, then melt it down into a blob, destroying the evidence. It's an assassin's dream-come-true.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:34 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            HTC: "But I'm not sure how you can call fact-based argument's from the right which are countered with hysteria from the left a 'debate.'"

            Don't forget the training and the mental aptitude tests, in Switzerland, before one brings an assault weapon home. Big difference, and I am sure the American Right, especially, would see such a Law as an Invasion of Privacy? Typical Rank and File NRA members not so much, but the Hot Heads, for sure. They would be a screaming, and lawyering up.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:20 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: http://mises.org/daily/4574/Kingdom-Come-The-Politics-of-the-Millenium

            HTC: I like the author's "X-percent / Y-percent" argument; although, within society today, there seem to be a great multitude of people with an extremely low X-factor.

            I also like how he ended his piece with this VERY important admonition: "There can never be a persuasive argument for coalescing or allying ourselves with the State apparatus."

            Yet, that seems to be precisely what a majority of citizens and the Democratic Party are doing.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:53 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Nice little FYI, since we Americans are actually having a debate?

            HTC: I'm glad you brought up Switzerland. Since every male has to do mandatory military service and then takes his select-fire/full-auto weapon home with him, if such 'assault rifles' were the problem, Switzerland's streets should be flowing in blood; instead, they have one of the lowest homicide rates in the developed world AND (no surprises here), virtually no home invasions which are becoming a common occurrence in the UK.

            But I'm not sure how you can call fact-based argument's from the right which are countered with hysteria from the left a 'debate.'

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:45 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            IABD: In reference to money transfers by illegal mexican aliens from the US to Mexico. The Mexican money transfers did not start with President Obama.

            HTC: I never said they did. I was merely pointing that out as another way in which the president could leverage Mexico's financial dependence upon us to help secure justice for the jailed Marine. The president has the power to temporarily stop much of that flow as well as halt our direct foreign aid. I can guarantee you that Marine can last longer in their stinking prison than they can last without those dollars.

            Interesting, however, that your immediate reaction was to defend Obama rather than to join me in condemning his administration's despicable lack of direct involvement in securing the release of this Marine. Bush was loved by the military because they knew he was one of them and loved and cared about them, too.

            Obama's caring for our men and women in uniform is feigned and most of them know it. Every facet of the man is pretense and facade.

            But he's your guy all the way, eh?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:43 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            http://blog.mikebilly.com/2011/04/fight-of-the-century-keynes-vs-hayek-round-two/

            This version has a written transcript, for the Hearing Impaired among us. And there are many.
            _______________________________________________________________________________
            And, being 12/21/12 and the computer still works , the following is a good recap of events? Kind of keeps my Utilitarian approach alive and well?
            "Kingdom Come: The Politics of the Millenium"
            http://mises.org/daily/4574/Kingdom-Come-The-Politics-of-the-Millenium

             
          • Rob123 posted at 2:26 am on Fri, Dec 21, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
            "Gun politics in Switzerland"

            Nice little FYI, since we Americans are actually having a debate?

             
          • Catburt28 posted at 9:47 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            Catburt28 Posts: 23

            Am I the only one who snorted soda when reading China's letter/propaganda diatribe about the US banning guns because of this killing spree?

            If that's their reasoning, then knives should be banned in China, since they just had another knifing-spree, with 22 children and elderly injured; hospitalized with severed noses, fingers, etc.

            Not to mention that in 2010--knife-sprees in China accounted for 20 dead and more than 50 injured.


            But let's not let facts about mentally ill people using whatever weapons they can lay hold of to maim and kill people get in the way of this wonderful debate.

            Please.
            Continue.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 8:11 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HTC- I think your memory is failing you again or your hat doesn't allow in enough sunshine and is giving you seasonal affective disorder.

            In reference to money transfers by illegal mexican aliens from the US to Mexico. The Mexican money transfers did not start with President Obama. Try googling: Creating Prosperity Through Partnership, Report to President Vicente Fox and President George W Bush, Monterrey, Mexico, March 22, 2002.

            FYI: Bank of America which plays a minor role in funds transfers to Mexico has a program called Safesend which is scheduled to end this coming June.

            http://www.appleseednetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Creating-A-Fair-Playing-Field-For-Consumers-The-Need-For-Transparency-In-The-US-Mexico-Remittance-Market.pdf

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:37 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123 posted at 1:27 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012

            Very well done.

            Of course, Keynes is not taken seriously by most economists today, largely due to his failure to recognize the obvious folly in his theory that you can somehow stimulate the private sector by first taking money from it. It's the economic equivalent of Midieval blood-letting to cure disease. Even a ten year old can recognize the obvious flaw in that theory.

            But those on the left never learn, no matter how much damage they do as they keep repeating the same folly expecting a different outcome.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:13 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Once again our Commander-in-Chief displays his complete lack of leadership ability, as does Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. They have informed the family of Marine Corporal Jon Hammar, who's been held in a horrid Mexican prison for 4 months on trumped up weapons charges, that there's nothing they can do to help the Marine who's served two tours in Afghanistan.

            Nothing? Really?

            The president of the greatest superpower on the planet, whose country provides $500M a year in foreign aid to Mexico, whose Mexican population living and working here send so much money back to Mexico that it accounts for 26% of their GDP and whose citizens visiting Mexico as tourists add another 10% to their economy, CAN'T DO ANYTHING?

            What a feckless POS Obama is! He's abandoned this Marine just as his administration abandoned our folks at Benghazi.

            But he was the ONLY choice, right IABD?

            I think I'm going to puke....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:01 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            IABD: I occasionlly vote for real Republicans who are not endorsed by the NRA. Obama was
            clearly the only choice for me this election.

            HTC: So Marxist Obama was the "real Republican" who wasn't endorsed by the NRA.

            Right......

            When it comes to your political bipolar syndrome, you and Bronco could be soul mates.


             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 2:35 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            IABD - obama was the only choice???????????????? Well I guess so if you really want a communist in the white house. Now that is some really flamin' Dumb A**.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:28 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:16 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012

            HTC- " Mr. Zelman makes some excellent points; in fact, I agree with EVERY one of them."

            HighTechCowboy posted at 11:23 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HTC- " I have long had SOME of the same issues with the NRA that Mr. Zelman identified."

            IABD- Did you have waffles for brunch?

             
          • Rob123 posted at 1:27 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc&feature=youtu.be

            "Fight of the Century: Keynes vs. Hayek Round Two"

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:00 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Ted Nugent On Obama Election: 'Pimps Whores & Welfare Brats' Voted For 'Economic & Spiritual Suicide'
            The Huffington Post | By Cavan Sieczkowski
            Posted: 11/08/2012 6:03 pm EST Updated: 11/13/2012 5:29 pm EST

            Detroit rocker and right-winger Ted Nugent was not too happy when President Barack Obama was reelected, so he took to Twitter to denounce the "pimps," "whores" and "welfare brats" who voted for America's "economic [and] spiritual suicide."

            Nugent tweeted some choice words on Wednesday after Obama earned four more years in the White House in an electoral college landslide victory over GOP candidate Mitt Romney. He bid America "Goodluk" [sic] and good riddance.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:31 pm on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            In 1999 the ABC News program 20/20 did a feature on Eddie Eagle which was highly critical of the program. This feature stated that it did not work to simply "Tell [very young] kids what to do" and expect them to follow those instructions implicitly.
            The producers had a group of schoolchildren (aged 3 to 10 years old) watch the Eddie Eagle video along with a presentation by a police officer on gun safety. While the children all appeared to understand the message that guns are not toys, when the children were left alone with prop guns (and a hidden camera capturing their reactions), they all proceeded to use them as if they were toys.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Eagle#Training_program

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:56 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HTC: You hate the GOP, LOVE the socialist Democratic Party and our Marxist president but you would have me believe you're not a progressive?

            IABD- I occasionlly vote for real Republicans who are not endorsed by the NRA. Obama was
            clearly the only choice for me this election. You remarkably have a bad attitude resembling a true un-american anarchist. So sorry to be you.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:38 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 10:40 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            IABD- You may suffer from long or short-term memory loss and apparently can only rely on what Google search provides for the moment. You have repeatedly referred to me as well as others in this commentary room as progressives.

            I seem to recollect you also posting in the recent past that you are a local NRA instructor in the schools. If the school teachers are so incompetent and can't teach can we rely on you as our children's substitute teacher today?

            Class...Can we recite all of Ted Nugent's Eddie Eagle rules today?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:23 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            IABD: You must have short-term memory loss. You have repeatedly referred to me as well as others in this commentary room as progressives.

            HTC: You hate the GOP, LOVE the socialist Democratic Party and our Marxist president but you would have me believe you're not a progressive? Forget any possible issues involving my memory, for you suffer from a very serious break between your politics and your self-identity.

            IABD: I do even recall you even posting in the recent past that you were a local NRA instructor.

            HTC: I said I ONCE was. I have long had some of the same issues with the NRA that Mr. Zelman identified.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:13 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            This is what Obama and the Democrats call a "good deal" for taxpayers:

            December 19, 2012

            DETROIT (AP) -- General Motors, trying to clear the stigma of being partly owned by the U.S. government, will spend $5.5 billion to buy back 200 million shares of its stock from the treasury.

            The government, in turn, promised to sell its remaining 300 million shares on the open market starting in January, and get out of the company's business within the next 12 to 15 months.

            GM said Wednesday that it will pay $27.50 each for the 200 million shares, and it expects to close the deal by the end of the year. GM stock closed Tuesday at $25.49, and it shot up 7.1 percent in premarket trading Wednesday to $27.30.

            "This is fundamentally good for the business," GM Chief Financial Officer Dan Ammann told reporters at a hastily called news conference Wednesday morning. He added that GM has market research showing that the government ownership has held down sales of the company's cars and trucks.

            The government got its shares of the company as part of a $49.5 billion bailout of GM that began nearly four years ago, a bailout that saved GM from collapsing into financial ruin.

            The move leaves the government with 300 million shares, which it pledged to sell "in an orderly fashion" within the next 12-15 months, subject to market conditions.

            GM's purchase of the 200 million shares still leaves the government about $21 billion short of breaking even on its investment. To break even, the government would have to get nearly $70 each for its shares.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 11:05 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 10:40 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            IABD- You must have short-term memory loss. You have repeatedly referred to me as well as others in this commentary room as progressives.

            I do even recall you even posting in the recent past that you were a local NRA instructor.
            I'm wondering if you can actually remember and recite all of Ted Nugent's Eddie Eagle program rules for us dumb kids?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:40 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            IABD: You refer to me as a progressive leftist but everyone in my graduating class of 1969 at Flathead High remembers me as the conservative....

            HTC: Are you also taking "Reading without Comprehension" classes from Bronco? What I ACTUALLY did was refer generically to "fog-headed progressives" without actually calling you one. Apparently you felt the reference applied nonetheless.

            IABD: You on the otherhand stated you agreed completely with Mr.Zelman's critique of the NRA and like a bi-polar idiot such as Ted Nugent, you progressively back the liberal NRA and it's gun registration policies.

            HTC: Yes, you definitely must be taking lessons from Bronco. I merely referred to the sudden increase in NRA membership applications, WITHOUT indicating any personal support for the NRA. I did give credit to the NRA for honoring the families of the deceased by not allowing itself to be baited by the vicious rhetoric of the noncompassionate liberal media and certain Democratic politicians.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:29 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: It is absolutely appalling that you are completely incapable of understanding something that my 14-year old niece got immediately; namely, that if we keep printing money to fund these programs which we can't afford, ALL of us will be sick, poor and homeless.
            --------------------------
            Hey, cowboy, I never said I was for ALL entitlements. Like YOU, I am against some. Probably the same some. But respecting that about me doesn't fit your agenda here. I understand. If you can't crap on everyone, what's the point of dropping your pants, huh?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:26 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            mooseberryinn: Very Good! I liked that! Now there is a well written little piece of sarcasm. It's funny, yet gets the point across. Good going. Write some more like that. Honest good job.
            ---------------------------------
            Thanks, moose. My wife doesn't appreciate my sarcastic wit, though. She says I'm mean.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:37 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:16 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012

            IABD- You cease to amaze me. You refer to me as a progressive leftist but everyone in my graduating class of 1969 at Flathead High remembers me as the conservative who had a 3 hour debate against the teacher and American Government class arguing why guns would never be outlawed. The class president even asked to have me appear in the auditorium and debate everyone in the school. I got an A in the class and respectfully declined the offer.

            You on the otherhand stated you agreed completely with Mr.Zelman's critique of the NRA and like a bi-polar idiot such as Ted Nugent, you progressively back the liberal NRA and it's gun registration policies.

             
          • who new posted at 9:15 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            who new Posts: 367

            “This is why more and more Republicans are beginning to realize that just giving President Obama what he wants on rates, and then going home, could be the best possible fiscal cliff outcome.”

            Why the Republican Plan B is Obama’s worst nightmare

            Conn Carroll
            The Washington Examiner
            December 10, 2012

            Commenting on the state of the fiscal cliff negotiations, Ezra Klein writes:

            “The White House wants a deal. Administration officials want one because they think passing more stimulus and reducing the deficit is important, and they want one because they think the scheduled austerity would be devastating to the economy. They want one because a budget deal is a necessary precursor to moving on to other priorities like immigration reform, and they want one because a big budget deal is seen as a key element of the president’s legacy.”

            “The White House is firmer on its red lines in this deal than I can remember in any other negotiation. Administration officials don’t want a deal so badly that they’ll accept one that doesn’t raise tax rates, or that leaves another debt-ceiling crisis around the corner.”

            This is why more and more Republicans are beginning to realize that just giving President Obama what he wants on rates, and then going home, could be the best possible fiscal cliff outcome. Such a move would: 1) deny Obama more stimulus spending; 2) deny Obama the ability to move on to amnesty; 3) deny Obama a ‘grand bargain’ for his legacy; and 4) preserve conservative leverage over spending by not raising the debt ceiling.

            Obama spent the entire campaign saying all he wanted was for the rich to pay a little more by returning to the Clinton rates. He could never refuse to sign such a bill if House Republicans passed one. Plus, it would be a huge conservative victory of 98 percent of the Bush tax rates were made permanent. How could anything Boehner might get out of Obama be any better?

            who new: I believe the leverage by Republicans of not raising the debt ceiling is far more effective than anything they can hope to accomplish on the fiscal cliff. For Obama to veto a bill that raised taxes on millionaires would be viewed as hypocritical, since that was the primary focus of his last campaign.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 8:49 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Bronco (someone at the door) - Very Good! I liked that! Now there is a well written little piece of sarcasm. It's funny, yet gets the point across. Good going. Write some more like that. Honest good job.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:23 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Let those people now on those programs die or become sick, poor, and homeless.

            HTC: It is absolutely appalling that you are completely incapable of understanding something that my 14-year old niece got immediately; namely, that if we keep printing money to fund these programs which we can't afford, ALL of us will be sick, poor and homeless.

            So what's it like being dumber than an eighth-grader?

            Bronco: Wait. Someone's at the door. Gotta grab my .40 and see who it is. Oh boy! I hope it's a mentally handicapped person with a butter knife. Or a rock. Darn, wished I had listened to HTC earlier; this .40 with hollow points might not take him down. Shoulda bought that shotgun! I hope it's not a terrorist with an AK...

            HTC: Don't worry, Bronco. It's just a couple of very nice men with a specially-fitted white jacket, just for you. Everything's going to be OK now.....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:16 am on Thu, Dec 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            It's a beautiful day posted at 9:14 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            Mr. Zelman makes some excellent points; in fact, I agree with every one of them. His statements are clear as can be to those who still understand the founding principles of this country and the meaning of each amendment in the Bill of Rights; but, not so much to fog-headed progressives who 'think' with their gut.

            The reaction of the anti-Second Amendment crowd was swift and loud following the Sandy Hook shooting, and very disrespectful of the families' needs for some space before their children's deaths were politicized. The NRA gave them that space but the pseudo-compassionate left did not.

            The NRA now reports that the left-media's ceaseless blather and Democratic politicians' statements, such as those from Diane Feinstein, have led to a sudden influx of new membership applications at a rate of over 8,000 such applications EVERY DAY.

            Democrats know they've always paid a heavy price at the polls for targeting the Second Amendment, so I'd be surprised to see Diane's bill which she's promised to introduce in the next Congress ever make it out of committee.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:14 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Pete posted at 6:57 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            Kohana may even recommend the following link:

            http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/05/robert-farago/jews-for-the-preservation-of-firearms-ownership-slam-the-nra-again-still/

             
          • Bronco posted at 7:03 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            kohana posted at 2:37 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.
            ------------------
            Whew? Thanks, kohana. So it ISN'T true that eagles can snatch away infants. Thanks for putting that tall tale to rest. I was getting really paranoid. Preschoolers with rocks, mass murderers with butter knives...then eagles spiriting away babies. I tell you, it ain't safe anymore. We need to arm our teachers, arm our nannies, our kitchen staff. While we're at it, let's arm EVERYBODY! Then we'll have that peace only conservatives dream about. But first, let's cut back on entitlements, like disability, welfare, social security, Medicare, Medicaid, school lunches, most Veterans' Administration programs, federal employee and military retirement plans, unemployment compensation, food stamps, and agricultural price support programs. Let those people now on those programs die or become sick, poor, and homeless. As long as everybody is carrying, I don't see a problem. In fact, it's an ideal situation for culling the herd, so to speak. We can kill anyone who wants our food or possessions...with IMPUNITY! And speaking of possessions, it's OUR country, remember? We can take it back!

            I understand now! I'm headed over to Young Guns and get me another rifle or three. Had my eye on that Kel-Tec SU-16C for some time now. He//, I already am licensed, got plenty of money...Yes! I'm going for it!
            Wait. Someone's at the door. Gotta grab my .40 and see who it is. Oh boy! I hope it's a mentally handicapped person with a butter knife. Or a rock. Darn, wished I had listened to HTC earlier; this .40 with hollow points might not take him down. Shoulda bought that shotgun! I hope it's not a terrorist with an AK...

             
          • Pete posted at 6:57 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            It's a beautiful day posted at 6:07 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            Gosh, that was a very vivid and effusive illustration of the progressive mindset you provided there. Thank you very much....it is always nice when the subject cooperates. [beam] And please do continue....the audience waits with bated breath.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 6:07 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Pete posted at 4:46 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            IABD- So in other words, Hitler's plan for firearm confiscation was carried out post WWII when the US and it's allies during the occupation used Germany's gun registration list to disarm the defeated enemy. Are you now sympathetic to the Nazi's?

            FYI: The National Rifle Association through it's malignant pathological narcissistic CEO leadership over the years have sold their member manifest to any third party organization who requested it. And you and the neo-conservative far right wingnuts would rather have everyone believe it's all a liberal conspiracy to disarm America?

             
          • Pete posted at 5:05 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            When approaching this issue (2nd Amendment) it best be remembered that our rights are inherently inter-dependent.

             
          • Pete posted at 4:46 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            It's a beautiful day posted at 1:13 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            "IABD- Hitler as Germany's CEO and malignant pathological narcissist could only make executive plans which were doomed to fail."

            His "doom" was far from certain and was dearly purchased at the cost of around 50 million lives. So he didn't "only" make plans, he nearly carried them out to completion. It is this sort of arrogant ignorance that permeates the liberal mindset and keeps them from believing that such evil is possible in a "progressive" STATE; this despite mountains of historical evidence to the contrary. The road to hell is paved with good intentions AND the headstones of those who turned the administration of those intentions over to the STATE for safekeeping.

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:45 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            To HTC:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyIf2F_NPXM

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:02 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            In a grand display of just how far their heads are crammed up a dark, smelly place, the editors of Time Magazine have again selected Obama as their Person of the Year (they did so previously in 2008):

            http://poy.time.com/

            Why?

            Allow me to quote them: "We are in the midst of historic cultural and demographic changes, and Barack Obama is both the symbol and in some ways the architect of this new America. In 2012, he found and forged a new majority, turned weakness into opportunity and sought, amid great adversity, to create a more perfect union."

            So the man who ran the most divisive and crass presidential campaign to date is now somehow the new black Lincoln?

            Right....

            To any clear-thinking individual, the award should have gone to their runner up, Malala Yousafzai. That little lady has more courage and honor in her little finger than Obama has in his entire body; he//, than in his entire administration.

            But I guess it makes sense, since Obama joins a crowd of previous winners which includes Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Mikhail Gorbachev (but not Reagan), and Vladimir Putin.

            Appropriate company indeed.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:47 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            IABD: Evil continues to exist in America because more money is spent on a military budget than for a national mental health program.

            HTC: And five times as much is spent on entitlements and the welfare state. According to the CBO, by the end of this decade, entitlements will comprise more than 90% of the federal budget.

            National defense is a legitimate power and obligation of government and one we all need and depend upon.

            On the other hand, the nanny state is unconstitutional and has created a culture of dependency fraught with despair, substance abuse, a majority of children born out of wedlock and crime rates through the roof. It is also bankrupting us as a nation and has mortgaged our children's futures to the hilt.

            There is evil in what we spend but it is the spending you and your party promote and defend which is evil and on the verge of destroying us as a nation.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:41 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: If a preschooler hits another child with a rock, the solution is not for every child to have a rock.

            HTC: Good luck banning rocks, too.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:39 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Don't you just love these arguments to keep assault rifles in circulation?

            I think your argument follows along the lines that if these people were carrying, this wouldn't have happened?

            HTC: Actually, my 'argument' regarding the eagle follows along the line as yours for eliminating 'assault' rifles. Both make no sense relative to the actual problem at hand. It's just apparently easier for you to see that in the one case versus the other.

            There's only one argument that matters in the gun case: the Second Amendment. I have a right and as such, I don't have to defend or justify it to people like you who understand neither the Constitution nor the real problem at the center of the Sandy Hook incident.

            But I tire of this. You indicated only a couple of days ago that you were looking forward to a serious discussion of this matter but all of your arguments are non-serious and not supported by the facts.

            Come back when and if you're really serious and armed with some meaningful facts.

             
          • kohana posted at 2:37 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco posted at 10:18 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            Only took about 4 hours for proof you fall for this kind of garbage. Read on…

            Golden Eagle Swoops Down and Nearly Flies Away With Toddler – But Is It Real? (Update: NO!)

            http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chilling-video-golden-eagle-swoops-down-and-nearly-flies-away-with-toddler-but-is-it-real/

            The video is a fake. Part of a “Hoax the Internet” competition from Centre NAD in Montreal. The admission of “guilt” from the NAD website:

            The “Golden Eagle Snatches Kid” video, uploaded to YouTube on the evening of December 18, was made by Normand Archambault, Loïc Mireault and Félix Marquis-Poulin, students at Centre NAD, in the production simulation workshop class of the Bachelors degree in 3D Animation and Digital Design.

            The video shows a royal eagle snatching a young kid while he plays under the watch of his dad. The eagle then drops the kid a few feet away. Both the eagle and the kid were created in 3D animation and integrated in to the film afterwards.

            The video has already received more than 1,200,000 views on YouTube and has been mentioned by dozens of media in Canada and abroad.

            The production simulation workshop class, offered in fifth semester, aims to produce creative projects according to industry production and quality standards while developing team work skills. Hoaxes produced in this class have already garnered attention, amongst others a video of a penguin having escaped the Montreal Biodôme.

            If you guessed “fake” — pat yourself on the back. We cannot wait for next year’s efforts.

             
          • Pete posted at 1:14 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            It's a beautiful day posted at 12:46 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            Ah....so the STATE has the power to eradicate evil through budgetary means? Facinating.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 1:13 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Pete posted at 12:44 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            IABD- Hitler as Germany's CEO and malignant pathological narcissist could only make executive plans which were doomed to fail.

             
          • kohana posted at 1:00 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            More Evil:

            The Right Prescription

            Kathleen the Terrible

            By David Catron on 12.17.12

            Kathleen Sebelius is the most corrupt and arrogant HHS secretary in history.

            Among the gifts Nancy Pelosi brings to the House of Representatives is her ability to draw a hearty guffaw from the most jaded observer of American politics. This talent for comedy was on display last Wednesday when she told a group of toadeaters disguised as journalists that she belongs to the anti-corruption party. The Orwellian absurdity of the claim, combined with her trademark vapid expression, was enough to make a cat laugh. I do, however, wish C-SPAN would flash some sort of warning on the screen when the former Speaker is about to deliver one of these howlers. That one caught me unawares with a mouth full of coffee and I had to spend the next ten minutes cleaning off my keyboard and monitor.

            In reality, of course, Pelosi and the rest of the Democrats who infest Congress and the Obama administration constitute the most corrupt gang of grifters ever to have descended on Washington and the hapless American electorate. The only real question is: Who is the worst? Many would bestow this dubious honor on Pelosi herself. Others would favor her Senate counterpart, Harry Reid. More than a few would, of course, nominate Eric Holder. And still others would push the suit of President Obama for the “most corrupt” award. All are tough contenders, without a doubt, and each has certainly earned at least a dishonorable mention. Nonetheless, for my money, HHS secretary Kathleen Sebelius wins the prize.

            While all of the above-named candidates have demonstrated contempt for generally accepted codes of ethical conduct and the rule of law, none has done so with the former Kansas Governor’s consistency and arrogance. Before the advent of Commissar Sebelius, the typical Secretary of Health and Human Services has maintained such a low profile and remained so far from scandal that most voters would be hard put to name any of the 20 people who preceded her in that office. Sebelius has been a noisome exception. The stench of corruption has followed Sebelius from her confirmation hearings, during which she admitted that she had made “errors” on her tax returns, to her “inadvertent” violation of the Hatch Act last February.

            Nor did revelations of the latter outrage stem the steady stream of skullduggery that has flowed from her office. Even as her Hatch Act violation came to light, she launched a program that illegally postponed Obamacare’s cuts to Medicare Advantage until after the recent election. And it hardly needs to be said that her behavior since November 6 contains no hint of moderation. Since then, Sebelius has put in place a legally dubious pay-to-play program for selecting which health carriers can ply their wares in Obamacare’s insurance exchanges, and it has been discovered that a crucial contract involving the exchanges was awarded to a company that employs a former Sebelius underling who ran the very agency that awarded the contract.

            The pay-to-play scheme for the Obamacare exchanges is the result of widespread reluctance among the states to set up the insurance “marketplaces” through which the uninsured will theoretically purchase “affordable” care. The New York Times reports, “The Obama administration said Friday that more than half the states had rejected its pleas to set up their own health insurance exchanges.” The Times insinuates that this is nothing but a mean-spirited GOP refusal to “join a White House campaign to provide health insurance to all Americans.” But the real problem is that the push for states to create their own exchanges is a scam designed to trick them into enabling and enforcing the worst of Obamacare’s provisions.

            As I wrote last month, if the states refuse to set up exchanges, they cut off the subsidies and tax credits that are the lifeblood of Obamacare. Moreover, states that decline to set up these enabling bureaucracies will also be protecting their business communities from job-killing federal penalties — even if the federal government comes in and sets up its own exchanges. Why? Because the hilariously titled “Affordable Care Act” forbids the federal government from funneling premium assistance or levying employer fines through a federally-created exchange. In other words, a federally-created exchange has no legitimate funding mechanism and will therefore be unable to carry out its ostensible function.

            This is why Commissar Sebelius has decided, probably illegally, to charge insurance carriers “for the privilege of selling health insurance to millions of Americans” via federal exchanges. Will the insurance companies be willing to participate? Perhaps. “Fees charged for use of the federal exchange come on top of a separate annual fee to be imposed on health insurance companies to help offset the cost of expanding coverage under the new law.” But the upside for the insurance companies is that the new Sebelius edict allows them to pass on her new user fees to the uninsured: “The proposed fees could add 3.5 percent to premiums for private health plans.” This is what Sebelius and her boss call “affordable care.”

            If this pay-to-play scheme gives off a pungent odor, it smells like Chanel No. 5 compared to the deal HHS cut with a company called Quality Software Services, Inc. (QSSI). QSSI was hired to build a database that will be used to monitor the activity of the exchanges. The deal starts to smell upon close examination of the HHS agency that awarded the contract, the Center for Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight (CCIIO). CCIIO’s director at the time was one Steve Larsen. Larsen now works for a subsidiary of UnitedHealth Group — which owns QSSI. In other words, as Jeffrey Anderson puts it, “The person who ran the government entity that awarded that contract has since accepted a position with a different subsidiary of that same company.”

            If the name “Steve Larsen” and that of his former agency sound familiar, they should. This is the gentleman who issued the infamous Obamacare waivers to a variety of Democrat donors in 2010 and 2011. And it was it was also during Larsen’s tenure at CCIIO that it began establishing “information collection requirements” (ICRs) for a government database containing the private health care information of all Americans, including those not enrolled in any government insurance program. Now, having been instrumental in designing the Obamacare exchanges and delineating the private health data they will feed to HHS, Larsen works for one of the best funded and largest “competitors” for customers who will buy coverage through those “marketplaces.”

            How can Sebelius and her minions get away with such skullduggery? Because Obamacare grants “the Secretary” enormous “discretion” in her efforts to implement Obamacare. Sebelius has clearly interpreted this “discretion” so broadly that she doesn’t feel constrained by any code of ethical conduct or inconvenient law. So, she does whatever it takes. And if it “takes” your liberty, privacy and money, not to worry. Like Nancy Pelosi, she’s a member of the anti-corruption party.

            About the Author
            David Catron is a health care revenue cycle expert who has spent more than twenty years working for and consulting with hospitals and medical practices. He has an MBA from the University of Georgia and blogs at Health Care BS.
            http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/17/kathleen-the-terrible

             
          • kohana posted at 12:53 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco, your analogies are inane.
            If a preschooler hits another child with a rock, the solution is not for every child to have a rock.

            Preschoolers don't have guns and don't go on murder sprees. If my preschooler had thrown a rock at someone, she would have had her butt spanked. Today the same, now adult, person has certifications for numerous weapons, including assault, and keeps them in a locked gun safe. As she told me once when there were possible civic problems where we lived, she had food, guns, and gumption. I'd trust her in a heart beat before the law enforcement in our area.

             
          • Pete posted at 12:51 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco posted at 12:33 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            That a Biden quote?

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 12:46 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Evil continues to exist in America because more money is spent on a military budget than for a national mental health program.

             
          • Pete posted at 12:44 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            “This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!” - Adolph Hitler, 1935, on The Weapons Act of Nazi Germany

            “Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority. Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew’s possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation. Whoever willfully or negligently violates the provisions will be punished with imprisonment and a fine.” - Nazi Law (Regulations Against Jews’ Possession of Weapons), 1938

             
          • Pete posted at 12:41 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." Gandhi

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:33 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            If a preschooler hits another child with a rock, the solution is not for every child to have a rock.

             
          • Pete posted at 12:29 pm on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            We are going to have a "serious" conversation about weapons...and Joe Biden is going to lead it. Proof we are governed by oxymorons.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:22 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: Clearly we have to ignore the defenders of wildlife rights and ban eagles, for the sake of our children; after all, who really needs eagles anyway?
            -----------------
            I think your argument follows along the lines that if these people were carrying, this wouldn't have happened?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:45 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            None of the 5 Worst Shooting Rampages Were Carried Out By An American
            ---------------------------
            So much for American Exceptionalism. We should be proud anyway. Don't you just love these arguments to keep assault rifles in circulation? I have many guns. Designed for hunting, plinking, defense. I guess I need one for 'assault.' Just in case...

            Assault
            In law, assault is a crime that involves causing a victim to apprehend violence. The term is often confused with battery, which involves physical contact. The specific meaning of assault varies between countries, but can refer to an act that causes another to apprehend immediate and personal violence, or in the more limited sense of a threat of violence caused by an immediate show of force. Assault in some US jurisdictions is defined more broadly still as any intentional physical contact with another person without their consent; but in the majority of the United States, and in England and Wales and all other common law jurisdictions in the world, this is defined instead as battery. Some jurisdictions have incorporated the definition of civil assault into the definition of the crime making it a criminal assault to intentionally cause another person to apprehend a harmful or offensive contact.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:41 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco posted at 10:18 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            Clearly we have to ignore the defenders of wildlife rights and ban eagles, for the sake of our children; after all, who really needs eagles anyway?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:18 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            More violence involving children! (Not for younger viewers)

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9feAQtgX1fw

             
          • jennydoe posted at 10:09 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            None of the 5 Worst Shooting Rampages Were Carried Out By An American
            --------------
            Certainly wasn't for lack of trying.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:01 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=383912088366478&set=a.275284119229276.64363.241766355914386&type=1&theater

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:56 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            It's a beautiful day posted at 9:24 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            Since the choice of weapon is meaningless to the victim, once deceased, and TOTAL homicide rates are a far more useful metric by which to gauge relative "safety" within a particular country's borders, the Washington Post article is merely a useless bit of ideological spin.

            When total homicide rates are considered, the U.S. looks very good in the international picture; in fact, we're not even close to the top ten most dangerous countries:

            http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-murder-rates.html

            A large percentage of our homicides are gang-related and that seriously distorts the picture for our country overall. But at least most of us feel safe in our homes and don't fear home-invasions because our bad guys know that, at home, we're usually not defenseless like kindergarteners in school.

            But in the UK, it's quite another story where home-invasions are now the typical burglary because their bad guys know that their victims have been disarmed by well-intentioned liberal idiots. Worse yet, they often kill their victims to eliminate witnesses against them in court, should they get caught.

            And what are these bad guys armed with? Why guns AND grenades, of course! Apparently if you're going to rob and kill people, you're not terribly worried about B.S. gun control laws; in fact, you welcome having your victims disarmed by an ignorant government.

            It is all too true that, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

            But that's just too much simple fact and common sense to possibly ooze through the skull of the brain-damaged progressive.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 9:40 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            OK - the BBC stats don't agree with the UN stats. isn't that interesting? I think what we really need to do is tackle those folks who run around with guns shooting people. Then maybe the D.C Buffoons will leave us law abiding folks alone. HTC - Ya just gotta love those stats from Chicago and D.C. - really shows the value of "strict gun laws".

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:25 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            kohana posted at 7:58 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012

            Good post, kohana; of course, you'll never impress our progressive neighbors with facts that disagree with their emotion-based 'arguments.'

            The fact is that the two cities which lead the nation in homicides and by the proverbial "country mile" are Chicago and D.C. which also have the strictest gun control laws in the nation.

            While the 20 students and 6 adults killed in the tragedy in Sandy Hook is truly regrettable, no one in the Democratic Party or the MSM is talking about the 62 students killed so far this year in Chicago or the 446 kids who were shot this year in Chicago. I guess Obama doesn't want to admit that his chosen home is the ultimate proof of the folly of gun control:

            http://scottystarnes.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/446-school-age-children-shot62-killed-in-chicago-this-year-media-silent/

            To the rational person, it doesn't take much research to realize that gun control is only promoted by those who lack the intellectual capacity to actually understand the problem. As I've said before, their hearts are in the right place. It's their heads which aren't.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:24 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            The U.S. has far more gun-related killings than any other developed country
            By Max Fisher and the Washington Post Foreign Staff

            The Sandy Hook Elementary shooting that killed 27, including 20 children, is already generating the same conversation that every mass shooting in America generates: Why are there so many shootings?
            One piece of this puzzle is the national rate of firearm-related murders, which is charted above. The United States has by far the highest per capita rate of all developed countries. According to data compiled by the United Nations, the United States has four times as many gun-related homicides per capita as do Turkey and Switzerland, which are tied for third. The U.S. gun murder rate is about 20 times the average for all other countries on this chart. That means that Americans are 20 times as likely to be killed by a gun than is someone from another developed country.
            The above chart measures data for the nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which includes all Western countries plus Turkey, Israel, Chile, Japan, and South Korea. I did not include Mexico, which has about triple the U.S. rate due in large part to the ongoing drug war.
            The rate in several developing countries, particularly in Latin America, is significantly higher. Honduras, which has been called the murder capital of the world, has an average firearm murder rate that’s about 20 times America’s. But make no mistake: For a rich, developed country, the U.S. gun-related homicide rate is very, very high.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/14/chart-the-u-s-has-far-more-gun-related-killings-than-any-other-developed-country/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:05 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: Gosh, Fox and HTC seem to know! Only 48 hours ago, Fox was reporting Psychiatric Drugs as the mostly likely cause.......No mention of easy access to guns, of course. Then or now.

            HTC: Have you been taking lessons in "reading WITHOUT comprehension" from Bronco?

            Fox never said that antipsychotic medications were the most likely cause. They merely repeated what many experts have said that it COULD be involved, IF he was being treated which was unknown at the time.

            On the other hand, the MSM was all over the map for the first few days with their coverage, claiming that she worked for the school before they said she didn't which was just before they said she volunteered there. Same with their coverage of a suspected second shooter and their claim that the shooter was buzzed-in before they insisted that he wasn't.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:59 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            mooseberryinn: Thus far, the proposals for tougher laws are ludicrous in their ignorance of actual weapons capabilities. I guess for that we should be thankful.

            HTC: Every once in a while the incredible incompetence of the left works to our advantage.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:56 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: I find Upworthy things in the bowels of the Internets....

            HTC: There's only one thing to be found in the bowels of anything....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:50 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: [Quoting Randall] 1. Tell me, if good people are always good, and bad people are always bad regardless of the law, why do we bother making laws about anything?

            HTC: That's just a B.S. strawman argument based on an obviously false premise (well, at least it's obvious to those of us who still possess a full set upstairs.) Anyway, it's clear why you're friends but you might want to seek out a few clear thinkers to add to you circle; that is, if they'll have anything to do with you.

            Bronco: [Quoting Randall] 2. Why don't more criminals have grenades, land mines, plastic explosives, or other military-grade high-caliber weapons?

            HTC: Apparently grenades are becoming increasingly popular in strict, gun-controlled Britain:

            http://www.channel4.com/news/violent-crime-hand-grenades-on-britains-streets

            But most criminals, at least here, probably find a handgun to be far more useful than grenades, land mines, etc. when robbing store owners or banks or mugging people on the street. Once again, something that's obvious to the rest of us that have a full working set upstairs.


             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 8:48 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Today's on-line BBC - has some very informative info on gun/violence issues around the world. Turns out the U.
            S. is not at the top. Not even close. The truth is, the regime wants to "make use" of this horrific multiple murder of children. Notice - the regime will not mention the Fort Hood massacre. I find this behavior is totally without any honor whatsoever. Chairman Obama and the regime are not being open and honest with their crocidile tears, or their political grim faces and hysterical calls for "action". Thus far, the proposals for tougher laws are ludicrous in their ignorance of actual weapons capabilities. I guess for that we should be thankful.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:42 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: If the GOP has its way, there won't be any funding for mental health facilities. So, we'll have more assault rifles and more insane people on the streets. Seems like a pleasant formula to me!

            HTC: I'd love to see you back up that steamy pile with some facts.

            We could easily afford an adequate mental health safety net if the Democrats weren't already spending us into bankruptcy buying votes with entitlements. I'd bet that most Republicans would back a sound mental health system proposal if the Dems would give up their nanny state so that we could pay for it. To support such a move now when we're borrowing nearly half of everything we spend would simply be incredibly reckless.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 8:41 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:13 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012

            IABD- Fear of being committed may have caused HTC to be silent.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:38 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            It's a beautiful day posted at 9:12 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012

            You're definitely an idiot, but you can be an amusing idiot at times.

             
          • kohana posted at 7:58 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            None of the 5 Worst Shooting Rampages Were Carried Out By An American

            Posted By Daniel Greenfield On December 18, 2012

            These days you can’t turn on MSNBC without hearing another heavily made up talking head bloviating about America’s culture of violence. Michael Moore got famous by exploiting and lying about the Columbine Massacre.

            The talking points are already set. Americans have too many guns. And our culture of guns leading to shooting sprees. But the facts are different.

            Of the 5 worst shooting rampages, only one happened in America, and none were carried out by Americans.

            The worst shooting rampage was carried out by Anders Breivik in a country with some of the toughest gun control laws in the world.

            The second worst was carried out by a South Korean police officer who killed 57 people. A South Korean was also responsible for the Virginia Tech Massacre, the fifth worst on the list.
            The third worst university shooting in the United States was also carried out by a South Korean, One L. Goh, making South Koreans responsible for the two deadliest university shootings… in the United States. And that’s without mentioning the Su Jung Health Sauna shooting in Atlanta which killed 5 people.

            There isn’t anyone talking about a South Korean culture of violence because that would be silly. And talk of America’s culture of violence is equally silly when Americans don’t even show up on the list of the 5 deadliest shooting rampages.

            Of the 5 worst massacres, two were carried out by Asians and one by an African constable.

            Only two were carried out by white men. The next man on the list was Latino. None were carried out by Americans.

            Two of the killers, William Unek in the Belgian Congo and Woo Bum-Kon of South Korea were police officers.

            The deadliest shootings have occurred in Japan, in Colombia, in the Belgian Congo, in South Korea, Norway and in Australia, along with the United States. The only thing that all the shooters had in common was mental illness. In many cases there had been early warning signs. Martin Bryant in Australia had even told his psychiatrist that he wanted to go around shooting people. And then he did.

            Of the worst shooting massacres in the United States in the last ten years, besides conventional lunatics like James Holmes, the Batman killer, and Adam Lanza, we have Jiverly Wong, a Vietnamese Chinese immigrant who killed 10 people at an immigration center, and Nidal Hasan, an Islamic terrorist who carried out the Fort Hood Massacre, who killed 13 people.

            Of the 5 major Americans shootings in the last 5 years, only 3 were carried out by Americans and only 2 were carried out by white men. None of those white men fit the “profile” of the so-called American gun culture. Both were troubled and mentally ill loners.

            The issue has never been the traditional American gun owner. And no matter how much MSNBC rants, it still isn’t.

            Article printed from FrontPage Magazine: http://frontpagemag.com
            URL to article: http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/none-of-the-5-worst-shooting-rampages-was-carried-out-by-an-american/

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 6:33 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Gun laws - They don't work. At this time in human history, my guess would be that there are more guns on this planet than there are people. I would also think that should congress come up with more "restrictive" gun laws, on "assault" rifles, limited clip capacilites, etc. That law will be broken before the ink dries. Heard this morning that Conn. has the fifth most restrictive gun laws in the U.S. Didn't seem to make any difference did they?

             
          • bill39 posted at 4:04 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 1039

            Bronco: Why don't more criminals have grenades, land mines, plastic explosives, or other military-grade high-caliber weapons?

            To be honest with someone that cannot be honest with themselves is futile. Now go play with your friend.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:02 am on Wed, Dec 19, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:13 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.
            Posts: 6617
            Fear of being committed may have caused CT gunman to snap:

            Gosh, Fox and HTC seem to know! Only 48 hours ago, Fox was reporting Psychiatric Drugs as the mostly likely cause.......No mention of easy access to guns, of course. Then or now.
            ______________________________________________________
            HighTechCowboy posted at 8:50 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Gee boss, I'm so glad your interpretation of statistics is not in the least burdened with even a touch of subjectivity or naked self-interest. Maybe you should try to instruct the author of said article?
            Mansur Gidfar

            I find Upworthy things in the bowels of the Internets and share them with you lovely people. I also enjoy graphic design, blues guitar, and yelling at the TV. Validate my meager online existence by liking me on Facebook or following me on Twitter today!

            I'm, sure he would agree with you 100%?

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:40 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            From my friend, Randall:

            So the largest (or at least loudest) counter-argument to gun control appears to be, "Criminals don't abide by laws, so outlawing/regulating xxxx only punishes and endangers honest people." I have two questions for them.

            1. Tell me, if good people are always good, and bad people are always bad regardless of the law, why do we bother making laws about anything?
            2. Why don't more criminals have grenades, land mines, plastic explosives, or other military-grade high-caliber weapons?

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:38 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: Fear of being committed may have caused CT gunman to snap:
            -----------------------
            If the GOP has its way, there won't be any funding for mental health facilities. So, we'll have more assault rifles and more insane people on the streets. Seems like a pleasant formula to me!

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:34 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: HTC: I'm sure you're an expert on impotence.
            -----------------------
            Learned about it listening to your wife complain.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:13 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Fear of being committed may have caused CT gunman to snap:

            http://tinyurl.com/coxnlpq


             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:12 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832


            Perhaps the main reason our economy is headed over a cliff is due to a good share of Wall Street's one per-center's who are malignant narcissistic CEO's.
            Evil exists; so does good. A very good social psychologist Erich Fromm first coined the term malignant narcissism in 1964, describing it as a "severe mental sickness" representing "the quintessence of evil."
            Mr. H, a local malignant narcissistic CEO who gets drunk and steals a taxi to get home, advocates violent videos and manufactures assault rifles is obviously doomed for failure.

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericjackson/2012/01/11/why-narcissistic-ceos-kill-their-companies/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:50 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123: http://www.upworthy.com/10-terrifying-facts-about-guns-in-the-us?c=tp1

            HTC: I'm getting really tired of having to constantly dispel your pseudo-facts which you keep insisting on posting without doing any research of you own to verify your sources. Pretty sloppy on your part, but to expected from someone who obviously believes that there's no such thing as objective/absolute truth.

            Most of the pseudofacts you've posted have long ago been completely debunked or proven to be severe spin/half-truth.

            I'll only address a few of them. The rational person, after seeing the real facts behind those claims will realize that the other points are to be dismissed as lies or exaggeration as well.

            Claim #1: "31.5 people are killed by guns every day."

            FACT: This statement will lead most people to think that 31.5 people are murdered every day with a gun. That is as far from reality as it can be. Nearly 60% of these deaths are SUICIDES. 5% are accidents and 3% involve law enforcement legally killing a perp who desperately deserved it. Of the other 32%, nearly half involve a law-abiding citizen lawfully ending a threat by a perp who also desperately deserved what he/she got. This leaves only 5 people per day who were actually murdered and many of those are gang related. While more than anyone would wish to be the case, it's a far cry from the 31.5 cited.

            Claim #3: "...approximately 40% of guns are sold through private sellers who aren't required to conduct a background check."

            FACT: The BATF states from a study they did that it is 25% at most but that the vast majority are never used in crimes.

            Claim #4: "...62% of private gun sellers on the Internet agreed to sell a firearm to a buyer who said that they probably couldn't pass a background check."

            FACT: This is a claim made by the NYPD which has never been verified by any other outside studies. The NYPD and NYC have long been anti-Second Amendment organizations and have made many other false claims about guns in the past. They are also one of the most corrupt agencies in the U.S., so they hardly have much in the way of credibility.

            Claim #5: "A national survey of inmates found that nearly 80% of those who used a handgun in a crime obtained it from an unlicensed secondary-market seller."

            FACT: The DOJ has the real data on this and it shows that 40% of those handguns were obtained from criminal sources on the street and another 40% from family or friends. Most of the rest were lawfully purchased from a gun dealer or at a pawn shop. Only 1% were obtained at a flea market and less than 1% at a gun show from a private seller:

            http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

            Claim #6: "The federal penalty for trafficking in guns is the same as for trafficking in livestock."

            FACT: "Trafficking" normally involves transportation of stolen goods or their movement and sale outside of lawfully mandated channels. The penalty for trafficking in stolen livestock is 5 years. For guns it is 10 years.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:33 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Ya kinda lost me there, big hat. First, you tell me the 2nd guarantees the right to dissolve our government. I thought it was the right to keep and bear arms. We don't need a right granted to us BY the government to dissolve the government. Besides, look at our military. That would be an impressive coup!

            HTC: Do you think those illegitimately wielding power over us are just going to go away because we ask them to? Really?

            The Constitution guarantees us the right to dissolve our government if we feel it no longer serves us appropriately but the Founders realized that the act of dissolving that government would require some powerful persuasion of those who held that power to give it back to the people.

            Is that really that difficult for you to figure out?

            Bronco: Besides, look at our military. That would be an impressive coup!

            HTC: Whose side do you think most of the military would be on? The tyrant(s) who illegitimately cling to power or the patriots who sought to restore Constitutional government?

            Furthermore, Hitler's army was much bigger than Switzerland's but he never attacked them. Why? Because he knew it would be suicide given their high gun ownership rates and firearm skills because every home and business would be looking to gun his army down.

            There's tremendous advantage to far superior numbers.

            Bronco: Second, why do the same folks who believe that outlawing guns will not prevent gun violence think that outlawing abortions will prevent abortions?

            HTC: What makes you think that's what they believe? All the pro-lifers I know don't hold such naive thoughts, but most people I know don't want to ban abortion - they just want to ban public funding of it.

            Bronco: Then you go on to imply that the 2nd also gives you the right to shoot starving Americans in search of food.

            HTC: Reading with comprehension never was your strong suit, was it? Your off the wall claims as to what I supposedly said grow tiresome. My six year old granddaughter reads with better comprehension than you demonstrate. Your idiot statement which bears only the faintest resemblence to my actual remark doesn't even deserve a rebuttal.

            Bronco: . If I'm angry & hungry, I won't be within range of your shotgun; but you will be in range of my Tika 7mm sub-MOA.

            HTC: I won't bother to comment further in response to that childish remark.

            Bronco: You want everyone to keep high-capacity, automatic weapons because there is a very slim possibility that you may want to overthrow the White House 4000 miles away.

            HTC: Once again, you completely misstate what I said. I merely pointed out why the Second Amendment exists. If you don't like it, you don't get to simply ignore it.

            Bronco: Meanwhile, in real time, little kids and innocent women become victims of gun violence every day of the year. Not a good trade off.

            HTC: Obviously this is too complicated for you to handle. The weapon isn't the problem - the shooter is. There are VERY few mass murderers who didn't show signs of deep mental/behavioral problems. We need a national discussion on what we can do to ensure that we spot these people early on and get them the help they need to prevent their ultimate explosion into violence; otherwise, they'll always find ways to kill and people will continue dying because of our inadequate mental health safety net.

            But you progressives always prefer simple 'solutions' over real ones.

            Bronco: Let the stupid Feinstein bill go through. It's impotent anyway.

            HTC: I'm sure you're an expert on impotence.


             
          • Rob123 posted at 5:30 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            http://www.upworthy.com/10-terrifying-facts-about-guns-in-the-us?c=tp1

             
          • bill39 posted at 4:52 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 1039

            Pete: What's the matter? Afraid the progressive utopia might not be all it's cracked up to be once Pelosi, Reid, and Obama have their way?
            [smile]

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:48 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            mooseberryinn posted at 3:42 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Nobody is going to take your gun(s) away, moose. Try to relax. A good debate is coming, however. Long over due, and a test of the 2nd Amendment? Try not to be a bully, or be bullied.

             
          • Bronco posted at 4:01 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HighTechCowboy posted at 2:44 pm
            --------------------------
            Ya kinda lost me there, big hat. First, you tell me the 2nd guarantees the right to dissolve our government. I thought it was the right to keep and bear arms. We don't need a right granted to us BY the government to dissolve the government. Besides, look at our military. That would be an impressive coup!
            Second, why do the same folks who believe that outlawing guns will not prevent gun violence think that outlawing abortions will prevent abortions?
            Then you go on to imply that the 2nd also gives you the right to shoot starving Americans in search of food. Hmmm....44, AR-15, Benelli M4...I thought the baseball bat was the weapon of choice for murder. If I'm angry & hungry, I won't be within range of your shotgun; but you will be in range of my Tika 7mm sub-MOA.
            You want everyone to keep high-capacity, automatic weapons because there is a very slim possibility that you may want to overthrow the White House 4000 miles away. Meanwhile, in real time, little kids and innocent women become victims of gun violence every day of the year. Not a good trade off.
            Let the stupid Feinstein bill go through. It's impotent anyway. At least to real men. You know the ones; big hat but no cows.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 3:42 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            OK - Bronco - Assault rifles - I won't be effected at all. I have lever-action and clip loaded semi-auto. (the old 30 cal. WW2 replica).
            Rob123 - If 45,000 !? Americans will be murdered with whatever the weapon, You can be pretty sure I'm keeping my guns. But then - Some nutcase could attack while I'm at the movies, in the Mall, at Walmart, at work, in church, getting groceries, walking through a parking lot, driving down the highway, seems to be a good idea to carry a weapon for self-defense eh? Or is the protocol to beg for your life? if given the chance.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:19 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            HighTechCowboy posted at 2:44 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) and it's follow up, McDonald v. Chicago (2010), will most likely be revisited, since it is now all in play again, and the Politics are right for an actual debate, this time. It will be interesting, as questions at both the Constitutional and Political level are asked and answered, especially with Mental Health as a qualifier, finally gaining ground in the debate. Yet, during the next 4 years as the debate prepares to go to court, 45,000+/- Americans will be murdered with guns. Incredible.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:44 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco posted at 1:18 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012

            People who push this crap demonstrate as much profound ignorance of the Constitution as they do of firearms.

            The Second Amendment does not exist to guarantee us a right to hunt of to self defense but to guarantee our right to dissolve our government should it become oppressive and no longer serve us as directed in the Constitution. Consider the Constitution to be a contract between us and the government and the Second Amendment as contract enforcement.

            Feinstein is a complete idiot where firearms are concerned and she hasn't even sought any enlightenment on the subject in decades as a Senator. She's either stupid or devious. Take your pick.

            That idiot "point" system based on features only further demonstrates her idiocy. It's hard to respect a moron like her and most of her fellow Democrats.

            Let me ask you this: When the economic you-know-what hits the fan and a bunch of angry, hungry welfare types who can no longer feed themselves come after what you've got, which would you rather have: A .44 Magnum revolver with 6 shots or an AR-15 with multiple 20-round magazines?

            Me? I'll reach for the Benelli M4.....

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:18 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            mooseberryinn: Assault rifles. They are simply semi-automatic, clip load rifles, made to look like military weapons. Does the left-loonies not realize this?
            -----------------------
            Right. I think civilians have no use for high-capacity magazines. I do appreciate the ergonomics of the military style ARs though. This from today's CSM: (and please tell me how this would affect YOU)

            A military-style assault rifle and multiple high-capacity ammunition magazines were among the weapons Adam Lanza carried when he stormed into Sandy Hook Elementary last Friday. As a result, even some pro-gun lawmakers such as Sen. Joe Manchin (D) of West Virginia say it’s time to think about reinstituting a federal assault rifle prohibition.

            “I don’t know anyone in the sporting or hunting arena that goes out with an assault rifle. I don’t know anybody that needs 30 rounds in a clip to go hunting. I mean, these are things that need to be talked about,” said Senator Manchin on Monday.

            Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D) of California says she will introduce legislation banning assault weapons as a first order of business when the next Congress convenes. It will be based upon a similar bill that lawmakers passed in 1994, banning the rifles for 10 years.

            “It will be carefully focused on the most dangerous guns that have killed so many people over the years while protecting the rights of gun owners by exempting hundreds of weapons that fall outside the bill’s scope,” said Senator Feinstein via a press release.

            Assault rifles are high-powered small-caliber rifles styled to look as if they belong in the US Army’s arsenal. In military use they can function as fully automatic weapons, firing multiple bullets with one pull of the trigger. But US civilians have been prohibited from owning automatic machine guns since the 1930s. Assault rifles available for domestic sale are semi-automatic, meaning a pull of the trigger fires one bullet.

            Semi-automatic firearms per se won’t be banned, because that would mean ending traffic in pretty much every rifle and handgun available for sale in the US. Instead, Feinstein’s legislation names specific models of rifles it would prohibit. According to a version of the bill she introduced in 2005, these would include rifles known as AK-47s, AR-15s, and Uzis, among others.

            In addition, the Feinstein bill probably would ban the ownership, transfer, or manufacture of any rifle that is capable of accepting a detachable magazine and has two or more of these five characteristics: a folding or telescoping stock; a pistol grip; a bayonet mount; a muzzle flash suppressor or threaded barrel capable of accepting such a suppressor; or a grenade launcher.

            The legislation also would prohibit sale or ownership of any ammo-feeding device such as a magazine or belt capable of holding more than 10 rounds.

            This sounds comprehensive, but it is important to note that the legislation contains one very large loophole. As Feinstein notes in her press release, anyone who currently has a legally owned assault rifle would be able to keep it. It would be legal to continue to resell these weapons. So America’s assault rifle arsenal would not get much smaller. It would just not get any larger.

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:08 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HighTechCowboy posted at 12:33 pm
            -----------------------
            So, you've thought this out then?
            ------
            From the FBI: Considering that the average person’s torso is 9 inches thick, front to back, all the .223 rounds ranging in weight from 55 to 69 grains appear to be adequate performers on soft targets where frontal shots are involved. Although the majority of target engagements are frontal, profile shots can and do occur. A .223 round that is required to pass through an arm before entering the rib cage mat, upon striking bone, fragment, and while possibly shattering the appendage, would most likely not be successful in producing a sufficiently deep body cavity wound to be decisive. In this, as with any CQB encounter, "controlled pairs," or rapid-repeat hits may be required to ensure target neutralization.
            ------------------------
            Too bad this data doesn't fit six year olds.


             
          • Rob123 posted at 1:07 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            HTC: "It's been my experience that most lefties know diddly about guns....."

            10% of the population is left handed, you ignorant old coot. You need to get out more often.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 12:44 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            HTC Well said. I guess the whitehouse crowd is just ignorant. But then, we knew that.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:33 pm on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            mooseberryinn posted at 11:51 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            It's been my experience that most lefties know diddly about guns; however, like all other subjects including economics of which they also know next to nothing, that absence of knowledge never stops them from speaking out as though they're experts nor does it keep them from mocking those who do know the subject.

            If the shooter at Sandy Hook had known anything about firearms and really wanted to maximize the number of his victims, he might easily have chosen a semi-automatic shotgun like the Benelli M4 and added a rotating 14 round cylinder at the end of the magazine tube, giving him a total capacity of 21 3" magnum 12ga rounds versus 20 rounds for the standard AR magazine.

            Using #4 buckshot, slightly larger in caliber than a .223, each shell holds 41 pellets, for a total of 861 projectiles which could be launched in the same time it would take him to empty his 20-round AR magazine, putting only 20 projectiles into the air.

            Even without the magazine extender on the M4, it will hold 7 shells, for a total of 287 24 caliber projectiles. Or one could get a Saiga 12ga semi-auto which uses magazines which can hold up to 12 shells and carry several pre-loaded replacement magazines.

            The point is (before I start scaring people here), there is nothing particulary 'deadly' about the ARs versus other guns. A determined shooter, if 'assault' rifles did become unavailable, would eventually come up with even deadlier options, possibly even explosives for which there are numerous plans available all over the Internet.

            Rather than focusing on the weapon used, we need to focus on what produces such maniacs and why they go undetected and/or untreated until they've killed. That's how real adults approach challenges like this. We're not protecting any of our children from such things in the future by focusing on non-solutions to the wrong end of the problem.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 11:51 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Assault rifles. They are simply semi-automatic, clip load rifles, made to look like military weapons. Does the left-loonies not realize this?

             
          • Pete posted at 11:39 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:33 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012

            True.

             
          • Pete posted at 11:36 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rob123 posted at 4:16 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012

            [thumbup][thumbup]

             
          • Pete posted at 11:36 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rebel Rouser posted at 7:01 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012

            What's the matter? Afraid the progressive utopia might not be all it's cracked up to be once Pelosi, Reid, and Obama have their way?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:08 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            No Reason for the Season

            http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2008/12/no_reason_for_the_season.single.html

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:59 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:33 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012. Five thoughts for the day:
            -----------------------------
            I agree with some of these 'thoughts.'

            HOW TO DETERMINE IF YOU'RE WEALTHY

            Whatever your age, whatever your income, how much should you be worth right now? From years of surveying various high-income/high-net worth people, we have developed several multivariate-based wealth equations. A simple rule of thumb, however, is more than adequate in computing one's expected net worth.

            Multiply your age times your realized pretax annual household income from all sources except inheritances. Divide by ten. This, less any inherited wealth, is what your net worth should be.
            For example, if Mr. Anthony O. Duncan is forty-one years old, makes $143,000 a year, and has investments that return another $12,000, he would multiply $155,000 by forty-one. That equals $6,355,000. Dividing by ten, his net worth should be $635,500. If Ms. Lucy R. Frankel is sixty-one and has a total annual realized income of $235,000, her net worth should be $1,433,500.

            Given your age and income, how does your net worth match up? Where do you stand along the wealth continuum? If you are in the top quartile for wealth accumulation, you are a PAW, or prodigious accumulator of wealth. If you are in the bottom quartile, you are a UAW, or under accumulator of wealth. Are you a PAW, a UAW, or just an AAW (average accumulator of wealth)?

            We have developed another simple rule. To be well positioned in the PAW category, you should be worth twice the level of wealth expected. In other words, Mr. Duncan's net worth/wealth should be approximately twice the expected value or more for his income/age cohort, or $635,500 multiplied by two equals $1,271,000. If Mr. Duncan's net worth is approximately $1.27 million or more, he is a prodigious accumulator of wealth. Conversely, what if his level of wealth is one-half or less than expected for all those in his income/age category? Mr. Duncan would be classified as a UAW if his level of wealth were $317,750 or less (or one-half of $635,500).
            ------------------------------------------

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:48 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: I didn't see any "religious agenda" in her post and conspiracy theories are hardly limited to the right side of the political spectrum.
            ----------------------------
            Whenever someone claims they 'have a gift from gGod' beware. I hear my catholic grade school teachers saying 'Everyone was created equal in the eyes of gGod.' Yeah, I agree; everyone was born an atheist.

            Here's an article on conspiracy theories you may find interesting.

            http://cqresearcherblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/do-conspiracy-theories-appeal-more-to.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:33 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Five thoughts for the day:

            1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

            2. What one person receives without working for it, another person must work for it without receiving it.

            3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

            4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

            5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:50 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Sure enough, now that the anti-Second Amendment crowd has tried to capitalize on the Sandy Hook school shooting, gun sales have surged once again.

            These idiots on the left must really want Americans to own MORE guns because every time they open their mouths on this subject, people buy more guns.

            Some experts have suggested that there'd be only a third as many "assault rifles' in the hands of Americans if we hadn't repeatedly banned them or sharply controlled their characteristics. This is simple human psychology: People want something as soon as you threaten to make it unavailable to them.

            But progressives never learn....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:45 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123 posted at 4:16 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012

            The APA is now eliminating "Asperger Syndrome" as a distinct diagnosis and is merging it into the broader diagnosis "Autism Spectrum Disorder." Many in the profession are really angered and disturbed by this because people with Aspergers are much higher functioning than most with autism and their needs are different. Many fear this will lead to poor treatment of Aspergers sufferers and condemn more of them to limited functional outcomes with poorer social skills than necessary.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:39 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            jennydoe: I believe psychiatric drugs play a part with most these mass murders.

            HTC: A lot of mental health experts and pharmaceutical researchers would agree with you. We know that there is an increased risk of suicide with many of these drugs, as well as increased hostile behavior in other cases. Since we don't know how most of these drugs seem to work because we still understand the brain so poorly, we can only speculate as to what other areas and functions in the brain are impacted.

            Some may call it mere coincidence, but the frequency of these killings, both mass and family killings, especially by younger people, has increased just as medicating people for behavioral problems has dramatically increased.

            jennydoe: Since the consensus has been that the public schoolteachers are not competent to teach our children, do you really think it is a good idea to arm them?

            HTC: Who has suggested that our teachers are incompetent? There is certainly a soiid consensus that our public school SYSTEM is broken and failing our children miserably, but I've seen no one suggest that it's the teachers' fault.

            Many, many good teachers are some of the most vocal of the system's critics. They blame the unions, school administrators and 'professional educators' who've replaced teaching methods which worked with methods that don't and have removed discipline and personal achievement from the classroom in the name of 'equality' and 'social justice.'

            I personally know some damn good teachers who've left the profession because of what these numbnuts have done to it.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:29 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Nothing like using the murders of 20 children to promote your religious agenda, huh?
            Unless it's combined with a government conspiracy.

            HTC: I didn't see any "religious agenda" in her post and conspiracy theories are hardly limited to the right side of the political spectrum.

            On the other hand, the LIBOR scandal should be VERY interesting, IF we are ever allowed to know the truth about it.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:14 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rebel Rouser: Wow! Where can I go, what do I have to do, to acquire and develop such a strong sense of "love of country" like you do H?

            HTC: Apparently you agree that if he got what he wanted, Obama would drive this country into ruin.

            Good - you're making progress.

            This is all probably a bit too nuanced for you, so I'll explain. Because of the nanny state, we are heading for a major fiscal cliff the likes of which we've never seen before. By reelecting Obama, the electorate has ensured that there's no time left to change course, so our date with economic destiny is assured.

            The GOP can't stop it and, at best, can only hope to delay it somewhat. If they do that by blocking Obama's ruinous plans, they'll be called obstructionists by the Dems and the media and, when we do slide into the crapper, they'll blame it on the GOP because they prevented Obama from fully implementing his plan which, of course, would have magically worked and saved us from economic catastrophe.

            The only way the electorate might finally realize that 90% of our mess belongs to the Democrats and their nanny state is for that state to fail and leave them in a world of hurt. If Obama got everything he wanted, they can't blame the GOP and would have to come to grips with the reality that the Democrats know jack $hit about economics and free markets.

            "Libertarianism by bankruptcy" is what some are calling it and it will be a way back to Constitutional limited government and end the mortgaging of our children's future.

            So, it is precisely because I love our country and my children that I hope for this as too many people only seem to learn by getting stomped on by the consequences of their choices.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:16 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            jennydoe: " I believe psychiatric drugs play a part with most these mass murders."

            Although we don't know for sure, and await lab results, you are certainly 'possibly correct' in your hunch. I hate MOST of these drugs, and the way they are pushed by our 'professional' medical and pharmaceutical upper income class onto people who are then allowed to roam freely out in society. "Set and Setting" matter. I'm certainly no expert, but put an anti-depressant into the mouth of an Aspergers patient, and you have a speed freak without feelings or empathy or the ability to comprehend 'the other'.

            http://io9.com/5919434/prescription-painkillers-now-the-leading-cause-of-accidental-deaths

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

             
          • jennydoe posted at 3:40 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            Since the consensus has been that the public schoolteachers are not competent to teach our children, do you really think it is a good idea to arm them?

             
          • jennydoe posted at 3:36 am on Tue, Dec 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            kohana: You missed this article jennydoe while looking for one to support your anti gun position
            -----------------
            Wrong. I haven't an anti gun position. There are two firearms within my reach from my bed. & I didn't do any search for such an article. I came across it and found it interesting and posted it. I believe psychiatric drugs play a part with most these mass murders.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:24 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/urgent-update-on-connecticut-shooting/

            Nothing like using the murders of 20 children to promote your religious agenda, huh?
            Unless it's combined with a government conspiracy.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 7:01 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1562

            HTC: Actually, I think the GOP should step out of the way on every front and let Obama and his party have whatever they want. That'll drive us into the ground before he leaves office and there'll be no one to blame but Obama and his party.

            Wow! Where can I go, what do I have to do, to acquire and develop such a strong sense of "love of country" like you do H?

            Oh heck, I should be use to the Republican, Corporatist, ideology of flushing America down the shitter by now!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:16 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Federal Government racking up HUGE tab
            By Bret Baier
            December 17, 2012

            Presidents have been talking about the federal government’s spending appetite for decades.

            “We can’t spend ourselves rich,” Ronald Reagan once said.

            Even President Obama said that “every day, families sacrifice to live within their means – they deserve a government that does the same.”

            In the most recent talks to avoid the looming fiscal crisis, though, House Speaker John Boehner insists the president has been singing a different tune, and is “just not serious about cutting spending.”

            But how much spending are we actually talking about? It may be difficult to wrap one’s head around how much the federal government doles out every day, but here is a snapshot.

            Each day during the month of November, the government brought in a little more than $5 billion of revenue. That’s a lot of money – but the U.S. government spent in that time more than $11 billion a day. The difference is roughly $6 billion.

            Of that $11 billion, the top items were as follows: The Department of Health and Human Services, which goes through roughly $3 billion a day; Social Security, which shells out roughly $2.5 billion a day; the Department of Defense, which runs a $1.8 billion daily tab; and interest on the debt, which eats up $854 million every day.

            Economists say the latter number is the most concerning of all – since the country gets practically nothing in exchange for that. It’s just paying the bills on the debt, and the number is subject to wild fluctuation.

            “We've got a $16 trillion debt, and servicing the debt is hard now,” former Democratic Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana said. “This is with interest rates at record lows. God forbid something should happen to cause interest rates to go up even a little, back to where they ordinarily would be, the burden of this debt would become immensely greater.”

            Alice Rivlin, Bill Clinton’s budget director, attributed the bulk of the spending problem to the promises made under Medicare, Medicaid and, to a lesser extent, Social Security.

            "They'll drive federal spending up faster than our economy can grow,” she said. “And revenues won’t keep up, so we have a problem. If you don't have enough revenues to pay for the spending, you have to borrow. And on the track that we are on, if we go on doing what is in the law over the next several decades, our public debt will rise faster than our economy can grow.

            “When that happens you got a real problem, because you’ve got to pay interest on that debt, and your creditors see that your debt’s rising faster than your economy is growing, so they charge more and more and it's a very bad situation,” she said.

            Arthur Brooks, with the American Enterprise Institute, finds current debates about higher taxes misguided, with federal spending on overdrive.

            “It's as simple as a family that does that. And the problem is right now you have a situation in which the government in its overspending ways tries to rationalize it by saying that actually the problem is we're under-taxing the American public,” he said. “It's like your irresponsible brother-in-law runs up his credit cards and goes bust and says the real problem is because you've stopped sending me checks.

            “The truth of the matter is our country spends too much,” he said.

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/17/cost-spending-federal-government-racking-up-huge-tab/#ixzz2FMV2Dd9P

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:10 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            A genuine WW II war hero and honorable public servant has passed away:

            Hawaii Sen. Daniel K. Inouye dies at 88

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/17/hawaii-sen-daniel-k-inouye-dies-at-88/#ixzz2FMTOjwht

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:03 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Feds look other way as wind farms kill birds -- but haul oil and gas firms to court
            By Barnini Chakraborty
            December 17, 2012

            Washington – Lights left on during a foggy night last year at a West Virginia wind farm are thought to be behind the grizzly deaths of nearly 500 songbirds.

            It was the third time it happened -- and each time, the federal government looked the other way.

            Fast forward to last week. Following the deaths of a dozen migratory birds in Montana, Wyoming and Nebraska several years back, a Denver-based oil company was fined $22,500. The company was also ordered to make an additional $7,500 payment to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation.

            The disconnect demonstrates what critics call a blatant double standard that has to change. While the federal government aggressively pursues oil and gas companies for wildlife deaths, it often gives wind producers a pass.

            Proponents say going soft on the wind industry allows it to compete. But environmentalists say, in this instance, it’s unacceptable.

            “The playing field is not leveled,” American Bird Conservancy spokesman Bill Johns told FoxNews.com, recalling the West Virginia incident. “If there had been a serious consequence the first time, there wouldn’t have been a second time and a third time. All they do now is go, ‘Whoops, my bad’ and it’s forgiven.”

            The most recent mass bird kill in West Virginia didn’t involve collisions with wind turbines at the sprawling 61-tower complex but instead resulted from a combination of exhaustion and collisions with the substation as the Connecticut warblers, yellow-billed cuckoos and Virginia rails got trapped in the light’s glare and circled in mass confusion before dying.

            The ABC is among a growing group that believes the government is playing favorites and does not hold the wind industry to the same standards as other energy generators.

            The wind sector has had an exemption from prosecution under two of America’s oldest wildlife-protection laws: the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and the Eagle Protection Act. A violation of either law could result in a fine up to $250,000 or two years imprisonment. To date, the Obama administration -- following in the footsteps of the George W. Bush administration – has not prosecuted a single case against the wind industry. What they have done is gone after oil and natural gas providers for similar infractions.

            “How does an industry kill more than 2,000 eagles and not be fined once?” Johns said. “It’s a head scratcher.”

            A few months ago, the Justice Department brought charges against Oklahoma oil company Continental Resources as well as six others in North Dakota for causing the death of 28 migratory birds in violation of the Bird Treaty Act.

            Continental CEO Harold Hamm called the move “completely discriminatory.”

            Continental was accused of killing one bird “the size of a sparrow” in its oil pits. “It’s not even a rare bird. There’re jillions of them,” Hamm said during an interview with The Wall Street Journal.

            Yet in central California, 70 golden eagles were killed by wind turbines at Altamont Pass, without prosecution. The findings follow a 2008 study by the Fish and Wildlife Service that estimates wind farms kill nearly a half million birds per year in the United States. The department has since backed off from that number but requests for clarification by FoxNews.com were not returned.

            “They are thumbing their noses at the environmental mess they are making,” Johns said.

            A study funded by the Alameda County Community Development Agency estimated that 10,000 birds – almost all that are protected by the migratory bird act – are being killed every year at the wind farm in Altamont Pass, Calif.

            “The Altamont Pass wind farm does not face the same threat of prosecution, even though the bird kills at Altamont have been repeatedly documented by biologists since the mid-1990s,” Robert Bryce, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute’s Center for Energy Policy and the Environment, said.

            “Biologists believe Altamont, which uses older turbine technology, may be the worst example. But that said, the carnage there likely represents only a fraction of the number of birds killed by windmills,” Bryce told FoxNews.com.

            In 2009, ExxonMobil pleaded guilty in federal court to killing 85 birds that came into contact with crude oil and other pollutants in uncovered tanks and wastewater facilities on its property. The birds were protected by the federal act and the company agreed to pay $600,000 in fines. Over the past decade, federal officials have brought hundreds of similar cases against big energy companies operating across the country.

            Oregon-based electric company PacifiCorp was ordered to pay $1.4 million in fines for killing 232 eagles that were electrocuted by power lines in Wyoming.

            In March, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service released new guidelines for land-based wind developers trying to avoid or minimize impacts to birds and their habitat. But bird advocates say it’s an empty gesture because the guidelines are voluntary and wind farms are not required to follow them.

            The backlash against the wind industry is spreading to issues across other parts of the country.

            In October, 60 residents of Hermiker County in upstate New York sued the owners and developers of a 37-turbine wind farm. They claim the turbines are bigger and noisier than developers had promised and say the farm is decreasing property values in the area and causing health problems.

            Noise from the property has at times clocked in above 72 decibels, 22 decibels more than local law allows. Iberdrola Renewables owns the project and has installed some noise-reduction equipment on a handful of turbines but not on all of them.

            Complicating matters with the wind industry are the ongoing negotiations with the Obama administration and House Speaker John Boehner over spending cuts, tax increases and other ways to avert the looming fiscal crisis.

            The wind industry has benefited from a tax credit that some say rigs the energy market. Whether to continue the tax credit, which is set to expire on Dec. 31, has become a bargaining chip in D.C.

            The credit was created 20 years ago to help wind compete with other sources of electricity generation such as coal, hydropower and natural gas. The wind industry says it still needs help from the taxpayer and warns thousands of jobs could be in jeopardy if the credit is allowed to expire. Supporters bill wind generation as a clean energy that doesn’t tap into water supplies and warn that letting the credit expire would mean a death sentence for the industry.

            Critics say it’s time for the industry to stand on its own or call it quits -- having benefited not only from the production tax credit but a de facto grant of immunity from federal prosecution under some of the country’s oldest wildlife laws.

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/17/us-wind-farms-under-fire-for-bird-kills/#ixzz2FMRjnlTu

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:00 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Hawaii= 1 firearm murder in 2011
            Montana= 7 firearm murders in 2011

            HTC: The 2011 FBI UCR data confirms this; however, our overall homicide rates aren't nearly as divergent. That means that Hawaiians are more creative in how they kill. Kudos to them for their inventiveness; or, perhaps they just want their victims to suffer more.

            Bronco: While knives are far more available than guns (in fact, you’d be hard-pressed to find a single household that doesn’t possess a knife), the fact is that guns kill far more people annually than knives.

            HTC: UCR data shows that, nationally, guns are used in 66% of homicides and knives in 13%. Blunt objects, poison, strangulation and other methods account for the other 21%. The simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of homicides are personal and not mass killings like we saw in Sandy Hook; as a result, a wide variety of weapons can and are used quite successfully.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:49 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Ten country study shows no link between video games and gun murders:

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:46 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: If you remove guns from the equation, the number of knife killings would have to increase tenfold to equal the number of gun killings.

            HTC: Therein lies the rub: there's no way to remove guns from the equation as countries with strict gun control laws have proven. It is indisputable except by those who've lost touch with reality that, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.

            While a lot of the projections by organizations like the Family Violence Prevention Fund have been thoroughly debunked, they're just a distraction anyway because the simple fact is that gun control only disarms law-abiding citizens who aren't the problem in the first place.

            Furthermore, as has been proven in this country, they save more lives than they cost by orders of magnitude.

            Bronco: But it gets ridiculous when we fight over who gets to have a marriage license but don't give a ratzazz who can have an assault rifle.

            HTC: I don't know anyone who doesn't care about keeping firearms out of the hands of the mentally impaired as well as convicted felons; no one, that is, except possibly the government which hasn't adequately prosecuted our existing gun laws including adding extra jail time for using a gun to commit a crime.

            Studies have shown that we don't need more gun control laws; what we need, is vigorous enforcement of our existing laws.

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:32 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Hey, I'm no gun-control nut. I want discussion, open discussion, about this issue. I own two handguns, a half dozen rifles and a shotgun. I have over 3000 rounds of ammo too. But it gets ridiculous when we fight over who gets to have a marriage license but don't give a ratzazz who can have an assault rifle.

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:21 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, I couldn't find murder-by-firearm as a distinct statistic at UCR. But I found this from:

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state

            (Source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports)

            Hawaii= 1 firearm murder in 2011
            Montana= 7 firearm murders in 2011

            https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc? key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdGhycDRPQlN1dTBoMzJWOTk0Uk9DRVE&hl=en#gid=10

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:04 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/12/17/dispelling-the-right-wing-myth-you-can-kill-someone-as-easily-with-a-knife-as-a-gun/

            While knives are far more available than guns (in fact, you’d be hard-pressed to find a single household that doesn’t possess a knife), the fact is that guns kill far more people annually than knives. If you remove guns from the equation, the number of knife killings would have to increase tenfold to equal the number of gun killings.

            According to the “Futures Without Violence” organization (formerly the Family Violence Prevention Fund), women who suffer from domestic violence are five times more likely to be murdered if there is a gun in the home. That’s a pretty striking statistic and flies in the face of claims that those who kill with guns would find another way to kill. In fact, that statistic almost makes it seem as though it’s the gun that’s creating the killer.

            Since the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton Colorado, where 12 students and a teacher were killed, there have been an additional 25 publicized mass shootings (five or more people killed) in the United States, culminating with the most recent tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut, made perhaps most horrific by the amount of very young victims – a total of 20 between the ages of six and seven.

            Those mass shootings are as follows:

            Apr 1999 — Littleton, CO • 14 killed
            Jul 1999 – Atlanta, GA • 13 killed
            Sep 1999 – Fort Worth, TX • 7 killed
            Oct 2002 – Washington DC • 10 killed
            Aug 2003 – Chicago, IL • 6 killed
            Nov 2004 – Birchwood, WI • 6 killed
            Mar 2005 – Brookfield, WI • 7 killed
            Oct 2006 – Mines, PA • 5 killed
            Apr 2007 – Blacksburg, VA • 33 killed
            Dec 2007 – Omaha, NE • 9 killed
            Dec 2007 – Carnation, WA • 6 killed
            Feb 2008 – Chicago, IL • 5 killed
            Feb 2008 – DeKalb, IL • 5 killed
            Sep 2008 – Alger, WA • 6 killed
            Dec 2008 – Covina, CA • 9 killed
            Mar 2009 – Alabama • 10 killed
            Mar 2009 – North Carolina • 8 killed
            Mar 2009 – Santa Clara, CA • 6 killed
            Apr 2009 – Binghamton, NY • 13 killed
            Jul 2009 – TX Southern Univ. • 6 killed
            Nov 2009 – Fort Hood, TX • 13 killed
            Jan 2011 – Tuscon, AZ • 6 killed
            Jul 2012 – Aurora, CO • 12 killed
            Aug 2012 – Wisconsin • 6 killed
            Sep 2012 – Minneapolis, MN • 6 killed
            Dec 2012 – Newtown, CT • 28 killed
            In all those mass shootings, the number killed reached a high of 33 (the Virginia Tech shootings). The average amount of people killed per mass shootings was 10.

            Mass knifings (four or more people killed), on the other hand, are virtually nonexistent. There have purportedly been two in the U.S. (according to Spartan Cops). I’d hazard a guess that the amount of people killed in those mass stabbings was less than 10.

            Killing with a knife requires the perpetrator to be in close contact with the victim. It’s highly doubtful that those involved in any of these shootings would have had the stomach to do what they did if not for the relatively easy and impersonal method of killing provided by guns (which is perhaps why many of these mass gun killers wear masks – to further separate themselves from the violence they are inflicting).

            Of all the homicides in the U.S., approximately 70% are committed with firearms. From 1999-2010, the Center for Disease Control reports that 364,483 Americans were killed by guns in the U.S. — that averages out to approximately 30,000 gun fatalities per year (compared to less than 3,000 stabbing fatalities per year).

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:49 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco posted at 2:08 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012 [lol]

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:47 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000
            Montana= 14.5
            Hawaii= 2.8

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state
            Murder in United States by state (2004) per 100,000 population
            Montana= 2.31
            Hawaii= .51

            HTC: Your source shows a much higher firearms death rate than the official FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Reports) database which is regarded as the best authority on all crime rates nationallly as all major law enforcement agencies report their data to it. Your source is the very progressive Kaiser Foundation which doesn't list where it got its data and shouldn't be regarded as reliable.

            Furthermore, your data is old (2004) and homicide rates have actually gone up since then in HI and down a bit in MT.

            The UCR's 2010 data can be found here:

            http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010

             
          • Bronco posted at 2:08 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            My Holidays' card to all of you!

            https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=349819571782662&set=a.142699395828015.27550.142698712494750&type=1&theater

             
          • Bronco posted at 2:06 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: I don't know where you're getting your statistics, but according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report for 2010, MT had a state homicide rate of 2.5 per 100,000 citizens. HI's was 1.8. That's not a big difference and both are very respectable compared to the national average of 4.8 per 100,000.
            ---------------------------------
            I was speaking of homicides by firearms.

            http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000
            Montana= 14.5
            Hawaii= 2.8

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state
            Murder in United States by state (2004) per 100,000 population
            Montana= 2.31
            Hawaii= .51

             
          • Rob123 posted at 1:54 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            HTC: " History proves that a well-armed society is a VERY polite society."

            Really? Could you point these Historical places, and times, out for me?

             
          • kohana posted at 12:57 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            From an Israeli Soldier’s Mother.

            http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.com/2012/12/from-sandy-hook-to-netiv-meir-from.html

            Sunday, December 16, 2012

            From Sandy Hook to Netiv Meir; From Maalot to Newtown

            Thirty-eight years ago, Palestinian terrorists attacked a school in Ma'alot and murdered 22 Israeli school children. It was so different than the horrible massacre that just took place in the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, where 20 children and 7 adults were murdered. I have no words to ease the pain of parents who have lost children, those who have lost their beloved relatives - not then, not now, not ever. In Ma'alot, we knew the motive - it was hatred and a belief in a radical interpretation of Islam that allowed, encouraged, and blessed murdering infidels, even if they were children. Perhaps especially if they were children.

            What we understood in Ma'alot, we cannot comprehend in this tragedy. In Newtown, we are lost. Why? What makes a human being do such a thing? There was anger after Ma'alot; but here, there seems to be only tragedy. There is such sadness and pain for the families, for the community, for all of America.

            If there is any comfort to be found for those in Newtown, it is the universal mourning that takes place today throughout the world. Even from the family of the young man who did this. From the father, Peter Lanza, these words must offer comfort.

            "Our hearts go out to the families and friends who lost loved ones and to all those who were injured. Our family is grieving along with all those who have been affected by this enormous tragedy. No words can truly express how heartbroken we are. We are in a state of disbelief and trying to find whatever answers we can. We too are asking why. We have cooperated fully with law enforcement and will continue to do so. Like so many of you, we are saddened, but struggling to make sense of what has transpired."

            It's impossible for Israelis not to think of Ma'alot when we hear about Newtown; impossible not to think of children becoming victims in a place where they are supposed to be safe.

            Read the rest…:

            http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.com/2012/12/from-sandy-hook-to-netiv-meir-from.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:45 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            mooseberryinn: Given that - I'm thinking maybe I should carry a gun.

            HTC: That's always been the best solution of all. History proves that a well-armed society is a VERY polite society.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:44 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Odd how inner-city schools don't have this problem as often.

            HTC: It would be odd if it were true. Thanks to decades of "urban renewal" projects funded by Democrats robbing the suburbs to fund extra policing and new construction of condos, etc. in the inner cities, crime rate differences between the two have been narrowing; however, the suburbs still beat the inner cities on most crime statistics:

            http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2011/5/26%20metropolitan%20crime%20kneebone%20raphael/0526_metropolitan_crime_kneebone_raphael.pdf

             
          • kohana posted at 12:39 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            http://www.seraphicpress.com/israel-and-china-react-to-the-massacre-of-the-innocent-at-sandy-hook/#more-14038

            By Robert J. Avrech | December 17, 2012

            Israel and China React to the Massacre of the Innocent at Sandy Hook

            A friend of Victoria Soto posted this picture and wrote: “When the shooting started Vicki hid her kids in closets and when the gunman came into her room she said the class was in gym. She was then murdered. Not one of her students were harmed. Words can not express how heartbreaking and tragic this is. I will miss you dearly.”

            The following is the text of the letter that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sent to US President Barack Obama:

            Dear President Obama,

            I was shocked and horrified by today’s savage massacre of innocent children and adults at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut. We in Israel have experienced such cruel acts of slaughter and we know the shock and agony they bring. I want to express my profound grief, and that of all the people in Israel, to the families that lost their loved ones. May you and the American people find the strength to overcome this unspeakable tragedy.

            With my deepest condolences,

            Benjamin Netanyahu,
            Prime Minister of Israel

            And from the People’s Republic of China:

            The state news agency in China, the official voice of the government, has called for the United States to quickly adopt stricter gun controls in the aftermath of the shooting rampage in Connecticut that left 28 people dead, including 20 schoolchildren.
            “Their blood and tears demand no delay for U.S. gun control,” said the news agency, Xinhua, which listed a series of shootings this year in the United States.

            Surprise! The fascist Chinese are onboard in the ongoing attempt to disarm America.
            And of course, liberals call for the murder of NRA president and its members.

            Evil is real. Mental illness is real. A civilization that no longer assigns personal responsibility to the actions (good or evil) of the individual is a civilization in decline, for this is a sign of a cultural moral breakdown.

            Victoria Soto protected her students and sacrificed her life in the process. She is a hero because she chose to do what she did. She took personal responsibility for her students, for their lives.

            But too many refuse to assign personal responsibility to the killer.

            Seraphic Secret will not write his name. His name and memory should, like Amalek, be blotted from our memory. Instead, personal responsibility is shifted from the killer to the gun, the bullets, the clip that holds the bullets.

            This is madness, and useless, and counterproductive.

            Only a man with a gun can stop another man with a gun. It’s that simple, that complicated.

            From a poster: www.silvercirclemovie.com
            The average number of people killed when stopped by police: 18.25
            The average number of people killed when stopped by civilians: 2.2


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:38 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: But Hawaii has only 1/5th the gun deaths as Montana.

            HTC: I don't know where you're getting your statistics, but according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Report for 2010, MT had a state homicide rate of 2.5 per 100,000 citizens. HI's was 1.8. That's not a big difference and both are very respectable compared to the national average of 4.8 per 100,000.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:28 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            who new posted at 9:52 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012

            How right you are. I went through that process yesterday on a site that had a brief bio on most of the victims. I had to pause many times while reading those bio's.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:24 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            kohana: Do you think Tim Scott will be in time to prevent Perry and Hagel from being appointed to Obama's proposed assignments?

            HTC: Actually, I think the GOP should step out of the way on every front and let Obama and his party have whatever they want. That'll drive us into the ground before he leaves office and there'll be no one to blame but Obama and his party.

            Just like you can't rescue an alcoholic, you can't rescue progressives either. Both have to hit rock bottom before they're open to suggestions.

            There's not question but that our progressive neighbors are well-intentioned and have their hearts in the right place. It's their minds that aren't in the right place. By hitting 'bottom', they might finally jar their heads loose.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:19 pm on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            kohana: [Quoting Ben-Peter Terpstra] "The odd thing about gun control is that a culture of censorship often increases after anti-gun laws fail to deliver. So, it would be hard for an Australian writer to submit a piece on Switzerland’s pro-gun ownership culture and low gun crime rate because our media isn’t “ready” to accept opposing views. Only a “thought control” culture can sustain a “gun control” culture."

            HTC: No surprise that the left seeks to rein in both unpopular speech and unpopular Second Amendment rights. The self-professed advocates of individual rights have always been the ultimate enemy of the same as they seek their collective-based utopian myth.

            kohana: [Quoting Ben-Peter Terpstra] "And, we’re still too quick to report on massacres in firearm-welcoming America and too reluctant to report on bigger massacres in firearm-restricting Mexico. We’re quick to report on shootouts across the U.S. but unwilling to report on thousands of Americans who were saved by pointing their easy-to-access guns at criminals, a.k.a. would-be thieves, murderers and rapists."

            HTC: Studies of police reports across the country have found that Americans use firearms to successfully prevent crimes against them over 2 million times per year. In the overwhelming majority of cases, merely displaying the weapon was enough to prevent the crime.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 11:54 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Ya know, if schools are well guarded, maybe as they should be, what about shopping malls? Grocery stores? outdoor sporting events? political rallies? Manufacturing plants? The list is most likely just about endless. Imagine a few gruesome methods of injury and death, and it's fairly easy to see there aren't any foolproof answers. Given that - I'm thinking maybe I should carry a gun.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:02 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            kohana: Rep. Tim Scott was raised by a single mom who believed in "tough love" and her tough love was carried out with a "switch."
            Strange that, I had grandparents with the same idea about tough love.
            ----------------------
            I'm the oldest of ten. Dad hung his 'big black belt' around his neck a lot. None of us were strangers to 'tough love.' None of us were/are violent or abusive. Dad respected the line between spanking and beating. With very good results.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:58 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: Armed and trained security personnel is the only answer and it would seem that now needs to be part of the educational budgeting process.
            ----------------------
            No. That's not the only answer. But it's an ever-increasing expensive one.
            "Mommy, is that a school or a prison?"
            "Look closer, Bobby. See the swing set on the other side of the barbwire? Just below the lookout tower."
            We could educate. Children, parents, everyone. Set strict guidelines for parenting. You'd agree if this latest event happened in Columbia Falls where your grandkids go to school.
            Odd how inner-city schools don't have this problem as often. Perhaps a well-trained student force is the answer?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:47 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, Hawaii has the same population as Montana.
            We have strict gun laws here; gun control, if you will. And we have one firearm for every four citizens.
            Last year alone over 36,000 new registrations were approved.
            But Hawaii has only 1/5th the gun deaths as Montana.
            -----------------
            HTC: it's in the best interests of society/government to genetically engineer good citizens so as to eliminate violence, war, etc...
            Scary possibilities down that road..
            -----------------
            Uh...what's so scary about nonviolence and, of course, no more wars? Good people defend; what kind of people attack? We can still be prepared. And I think we shouldn't engineer good citizens; we should just cancel the bad ones. The really bad ones.

             
          • kohana posted at 10:04 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Rep. Tim Scott was raised by a single mom who believed in "tough love" and her tough love was carried out with a "switch."

            Strange that, I had grandparents with the same idea about tough love.

             
          • who new posted at 9:52 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            who new Posts: 367

            Anyone who can scroll down these pictures and not have tears come to their eyes is a stronger person than I. This is literally the epitome of innocence.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/newtown-school-shooting-victims/?hpid=z1

             
          • kohana posted at 9:47 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Those who care should read this:

            http://www.islamist-watch.org/blog/2012/12/hagel-the-horrible

            Hagel is in bed with CAIR a named terrorist group.

             
          • kohana posted at 9:41 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109


            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:28 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012

            Do you think Tim Scott will be in time to prevent Perry and Hagel from being appointed to Obama's proposed assignments?

             
          • kohana posted at 9:31 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/sandy-hook-ed-letters.htm

            Sandy Hook letters to the editors.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:28 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Looks like Gov. Haley of SC is about to appoint Rep. Tim Scott to replace DeMint in the U.S. Senate. That will make Scott the only black U.S. Senator and a Republican to boot.

            Time for the "big tent" Democrats to play catch-up.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:23 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            jennydoe posted at 8:59 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012

            It would now appear that a Bushmaster AR-15 style rifle was the primary gun used in the Sandy Hook shooting. Dr. Carver, the Chief Medical Examiner for CT, has completed 7 autopsies and has noted that all of them were shot multiple times with .223 bullets.

            While small consolation, Dr. Carver noted that those he examined likely died immediately and didn't suffer.

            This information will certainly heat the gun-control pot to a quick boil.

             
          • kohana posted at 9:22 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Here's another one you might have missed:

            Europe Has Same Rate of Multiple Victim Shootings as the United States
            Posted By Daniel Greenfield On December 16, 2012 @ 8:39 pm In The Point

            That’s according to John R. Lott, a recognized expert in the field even by gun control advocates.

            Newsmax: The media typically spins these mass shootings as an American phenomenon. They suggest we ought to be more like Europe, with strong gun control, because then we would not have these problems. Is that true?

            Dr. Lott: No. Europe has a lot of multiple victim shootings. If you look at a per capita rate, the rate of multiple-victim public shootings in Europe and the United States over the last 10 years have been fairly similar to each other. A couple of years ago you had a couple of big shootings in Finland. About two-and-a-half years ago you had a big shooting in the U.K., 12 people were killed.

            You had Norway last year [where 77 died]. Two years ago, you had the shooting in Austria at a Sikh Temple. There have been several multiple-victim public shootings in France over the last couple of years. Over the last decade, you’ve had a couple of big school shootings in Germany. Germany in terms of modern incidents has two of the four worst public-school shootings, and they have very strict gun-control laws. The one common feature of all of those shootings in Europe is that they all take place in gun-free zones, in places where guns are supposed to be banned.

            Newsmax: So can you give us a correlation between crime rates in jurisdictions that try to ban concealed guns and the crime rate in those that do not?

            If you look over past data, before everyone that was adopting [concealed carry laws], you find that for each additional state that adopted a right-to-carry law . . . you’d see about a 1.5 percent drop in murder rates, and about 2 percent drop in rape and robbery . . . Just because states are right-to-carry doesn’t mean they’ve issued the same number of fees. You have big differences in states’ training requirements.

            Newsmax: Would it be a good idea to have teachers who have concealed carry permits in the schools, to better protect kids?

            I’m all for that. I’ve been a teacher most of my life. I’ve been an academic. I have kids in college still, and kids below that. It’s not something that I take lightly. But it’s hard to see what the argument would be against it.

            People may not realize this, but we allowed permit-concealed handguns in schools prior to the ironically named Safe School Zone Act. And no one that I know has been able to point to a single bad thing that occurred, not one.

            We changed the law, and we started having these public-school shootings. So I don’t think they got the intended result that they were hoping for with that type of ban. Right now, [some jurisdictions] allow you to carry concealed-permit guns in the schools. There are not a lot of them. But there are no problems that have occurred with any of those states, either.

            Article printed from FrontPage Magazine: http://frontpagemag.com
            URL to article: http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/europe-has-same-rate-of-multiple-victim-shootings-as-the-united-states/

             
          • kohana posted at 9:18 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            You missed this article jennydoe while looking for one to support your anti gun position.

            America, don’t repeat Australia’s gun control mistake

            Posted By Ben-Peter Terpstra

            After the Port Arthur massacre in 1996, media hysteria and bipartisan political support for punishing gun owners increased. As a consequence, our gun laws were tightened.

            We could have all responded like rational human beings and grieved for the deceased (35 in all). Instead, militant anti-gun activists viewed the massacre as an opportunity, and set out to punish freedom.

            Hitler supported gun control. So did Stalin. Still, our activists were bent on portraying the gun-tolerant United States as the real menace. “Australia doesn’t want to end up like the Wild West,” went one common argument.

            Yet, in 2011, I’m compelled to ask: When will we learn from our mistakes and admit we were wrong? And I ask this question because many Australians are victims of violence. In contrast, for criminals and their enablers, “gun control” is the gift that keeps on giving.

            Take Melbourne, Australia’s second most populous city. Between January 16, 1998 and April 19, 2010, 36 criminal figures or partners were murdered during the Melbourne Gangland Killings.

            Alas, family environments, from businesses to parks, were drawn into the mess.

            The passage of gun control laws fueled our illegal arms market, and gun-hungry gangs multiplied. The significance: many gangland deaths/wars involved bullets. The tribal fights exploded after the Port Arthur massacre-inspired gun laws, against mainstream media predictions.

            To concerned Victorians, too, it felt like our criminal class was running the state. The problem though (in Australia at least) is that campaigning newspapers and television networks are never wrong — no matter how many people are killed or threatened by guns, there’s always a “complex” excuse.

            The odd thing about gun control is that a culture of censorship often increases after anti-gun laws fail to deliver. So, it would be hard for an Australian writer to submit a piece on Switzerland’s pro-gun ownership culture and low gun crime rate because our media isn’t “ready” to accept opposing views. Only a “thought control” culture can sustain a “gun control” culture.

            When one punishes law-abiding citizens for the sins of criminals, good intentions will backfire. By criminalizing productive citizens, we have made life easier for criminals, and wasted precious police resources on policing farmers.

            Moreover, Australians were wrong to exchange scare stories about the “Wild West” because few understood that the Old West was not so wild, according to modern historians. And, we’re still too quick to report on massacres in firearm-welcoming America and too reluctant to report on bigger massacres in firearm-restricting Mexico. We’re quick to report on shootouts across the U.S. but unwilling to report on thousands of Americans who were saved by pointing their easy-to-access guns at criminals, a.k.a. would-be thieves, murderers and rapists.

            Also lost in the emotion is the fact that the alleged Arizona killer, Jared Lee Loughner, adored Mein Kampf, by the National Socialist/gun control dictator Adolph Hitler (not More Guns, Less Crime, by John Lott). So, do we need to reward and/or excuse society’s killers?

            At times like these, it’s easy to fall prey to post-massacre opportunists. Still, reason and not emotion is our best guide. The facts (to quote the Sporting Shooters’ Association of Australia) are as follows:

            Between July 1 1997 and 30 June 1999 nine in ten offenders of firearm-related homicide were unlicensed firearm owners.

            Raw data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) reveals that while suicide by firearms is continuing to decrease from a high in the 1980s, suicide by hanging steadily increased throughout the 1990s and increased for three consecutive years after the 1996 buy-back.

            In the year 2002/2003, over 85% of firearms used to commit murder were unregistered. Recent legislation introduced by all states further strengthened controls on access to legitimate handguns by sporting shooters.

            The AIC’s ‘Homicide in Australia: 2006-07 National Homicide Monitoring Program annual report’ stated that 93 per cent of firearms involved in homicides had never been registered and were used by unlicensed individuals.

            Gun control is a myth, or rather a mountain of myths sustained by campaigning elites in secure buildings with armed bodyguards: the myth that if law-abiding citizens hand their guns over to the big government to burn, then we will enter a new peace; the myth that if we feel that we are gun controllers, then we are humanitarian citizens even when statistics undermine our self-praising image; and the myth that punishing thousands of farmers and sporting shooters, for the crimes of others, will bring healing. But we (meaning anti-gun Australians) were (and are) wrong.

            Ben-Peter Terpstra is a freelance writer based in regional Victoria, Australia. He has lived and worked in the Northern Territory, Melbourne, Kyoto and London (England).

            Article printed from The Daily Caller: http://dailycaller.com

            URL to article: http://dailycaller.com/2011/01/19/america-dont-repeat-australias-gun-control-mistake/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:13 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Looks like the right to carry in public is working its way to SCOTUS:

            http://tinyurl.com/bs5stge

             
          • jennydoe posted at 8:59 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            Pequot posted at 8:09 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.
            ----------
            There has always been conflicing reports on whether the rifle was shot, but according to the coroner and all the news outlets of late, it was the rifle he used. Three 30 round clips. I hope there is no deliberate spin on the story. There was also a weapon in the car that hadn't been used.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 8:30 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            Moose: "Rob - I have no argument with your post, however, in this most recent case, it would have made no difference."

            Sadly, that is probably true......I will wait before trying to decide why she had those guns in her house, with a disturbed child turned adult. She was intelligent, successful, and since 2008, divorced. The reasons are endless.
            -------------------------------------------------------------
            Pequot posted at 8:09 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.
            I just bought my grandson, age 10, for Xmas, a 223. A great target and varmet rifle. However, I did not buy him the AR-15 style, on purpose. Just a plain old Rifle with a 4 round clip and scope. He will be a little let down, I am sure, and some day instead of merely mentioning how Phony the whole Hollywood version and Game versions of Special Operations/Combat are, I will explain it in detail. Just not at age 10. And if he wants to go see the world and experience different cultures, I will point at the Peace Corp., like his Uncle did.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:23 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Pequot posted at 8:09 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012

            I agree with you - there's little chance that this was an accidental error. They're laying the groundwork for Diane Feinstein's latest 'assault' weapons ban which she plans to introduce in the next Congress.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:21 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            mooseberryinn: What if Prinicpals and teachers were armed with tazers? Just a thought.

            HTC: I think bringing a taser to a gun fight is only marginally better than bringing a knife. In any event, it wouldn't have done any good in the case of the Sandy Hook shooting since the perp was wearing a Type II vest. Even a heavy jacket is often all that's required to defeat a taser.

            Armed and trained security personnel is the only answer and it would seem that now needs to be part of the educational budgeting process.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:13 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            jennydoe posted at 3:13 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012

            Numerous studies have found the exact opposite including this one from the University of Melbourne:

            http://www.ssaa.org.au/capital-news/2008/2008-09-04_melbourne-uni-paper-Aust-gun-buyback.pdf

             
          • Pequot posted at 8:09 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Pequot Posts: 525

            The anti-gun media lies are contained in an AP news item published in today's DI. The last sentence in the article states that the people killed in Newtown, Connecticut were killed with a "high powered rifle." The rifle found in the gunman's mother's vehicle was not used. Two handguns were used in the tragedy. I doubt this is an honest error. Getting the word out on rifles will help to include hunting rifles in the wave of anti-gun legislation sure to come.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:35 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco: Please consider the vested interest in nurture as opposed to the objectivity in nature.

            HTC: There's a "vested interest" in both. On the 'objective' nature side, there's the ultimate argument that certain genetic combinations are 'superior' and that, since we're just genetics and nothing more, it's in the best interests of society/government to genetically engineer good citizens so as to eliminate violence, war, etc.

            Many neuropsychologists/genetists have already been making arguments for just such engineering.

            Scary possibilities down that road....

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:31 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            Moose: "What if Prinicpals and teachers were armed with tazers? Just a thought."

            With proper training, it surely would be worth considering. Although I am 98+% sure the first couple dozen cases will be frustrated/intimidated teachers tazing insolent little sob's of the Puberty/High School age, and the law suites will be enormous.

             
          • bill39 posted at 6:17 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 1039

            Mooseberryinn: What if Prinicpals and teachers were armed with tazers? Just a thought.

            Intriguing thought.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 5:33 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Rob - I have no argument with your post, however, in this most recent case, it would have made no difference. A gun safe with combination lock might have. Unfortunately, nutcases will find weapons. There are many scenerios where it would be possible for a person not concerned with his own life to acquire same. What if Prinicpals and teachers were armed with tazers? Just a thought.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 4:21 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            Some tightening up of Gun Laws-Control- will be coming in the next 6 months, in my opinion. The interesting part will be if the opinions of Rank and File NRA members, who support the banning of 100 round clips and such, and who support a waiting time on the purchase of guns with a valid background check, and who support 'Gun Show Regulations' that reflect the same level of scrutiny as a Retail Gun Store's, will be honored? Or if the deep pockets of Gun Manufacturers and their K Street Lobbyists will rule the day?
            And Mental Health Access just might gain favor?

             
          • jennydoe posted at 3:13 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            HTIC states,"Mexico and many other countries with strict gun control laws and much higer homicide rates prove that, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Our own states with concealed carry laws have also proven that violent crime rates go down when the general population is armed and criminals don't know who does or does not have a gun.

            I don't 'worhship' handguns - I desire peace and security and, unlike you, I'm smart enough to realize that only a well-armed population as well as well-armed nations enjoy those wonderful things."
            -----------
            Australia's example proves you wrong.::
            On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia’s history.

            Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.

            At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.

            What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.

            There have been some contrarian studies about the decrease in gun violence in Australia, including a 2006 paper that argued the decline in gun-related homicides after Port Arthur was simply a continuation of trends already under way. But that paper’s methodology has been discredited, which is not surprising when you consider that its authors were affiliated with pro-gun groups. Other reports from gun advocates have similarly cherry-picked anecdotal evidence or presented outright fabrications in attempting to make the case that Australia’s more-restrictive laws didn’t work. Those are effectively refuted by findings from peer-reviewed papers, which note that the rate of decrease in gun-related deaths more than doubled following the gun buyback, and that states with the highest buyback rates showed the steepest declines. A 2011 Harvard summary of the research concluded that, at the time the laws were passed in 1996, “it would have been difficult to imagine more compelling future evidence of a beneficial effect.”

            Whether the same policies would work as well in the United States—or whether similar legislation would have any chance of being passed here in the first place—is an open question. Howard, the conservative leader behind the Australian reforms, wrote an op-ed in an Australian paper after visiting the United States in the wake of the Aurora shootings. He came away convinced that America needed to change its gun laws, but lamented its lack of will to do so.

            'There is more to this than merely the lobbying strength of the National Rifle Association and the proximity of the November presidential election. It is hard to believe that their reaction would have been any different if the murders in Aurora had taken place immediately after the election of either Obama or Romney. So deeply embedded is the gun culture of the US, that millions of law-abiding, Americans truly believe that it is safer to own a gun, based on the chilling logic that because there are so many guns in circulation, one's own weapon is needed for self-protection. To put it another way, the situation is so far gone there can be no turning back.'

            That’s certainly how things looked after the Aurora shooting. But after Sandy Hook, with the nation shocked and groping for answers once again, I wonder if Americans are still so sure that we have nothing to learn from Australia’s example.

            http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

             
          • jennydoe posted at 2:42 am on Mon, Dec 17, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            louisa: but lots of it is the terrible Video games that have been played and are in young peoples heads. and that is so sad, I have seen some that are just plain horrible no rhyme or reason to them , just killing.

            HTIC: no link proven between 'violent' video games and aggressive behavior. Those simple links only exist in the minds of simpletons known as progressives;
            -------------------------
            not only did you use simple twice in one sentence, you just labeled louisa as the "P" word. Shame.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:35 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: These are just another facet of the nature-versus-nurture argument which will be continuing for a VERY long time.
            --------------------
            Please consider the vested interest in nurture as opposed to the objectivity in nature.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:32 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            IABD: Au contraire mon amie htc....

            HTC: Clearly you have no idea how to spot unscientific surveys from legitimate scientific research. The PCI "self survey" report doesn't prove a damn thing and isn't accepted by actual behavioral scientists as "proof" of anything.

            But since you like to fancy yourself the amateur psychologist, try diagnosing your own detachment from reality.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:29 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            http://www.thepci.com/articles/The%20Role%20of%20Media%20Violence%20in%20Violent%20Behavior.pdf

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 7:19 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Au contraire mon amie htc....

            http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201207/mass-murders-are-the-rise

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:11 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Bronco posted at 3:46 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012

            A good, even-handed article on the subject.

            fMRIs have been WAY over-hyped by many in the neurosciences, as have the simplistic notions that we're nothing more than neural wiring and that consciousness and free-agency are mere illusions.

            These are just another facet of the nature-versus-nurture argument which will be continuing for a VERY long time.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:46 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            jennydoe: But most mass murderers are WHITE!!!!!!!

            HTC: True, but only to the same degree they make up the male demographic. Geez....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:43 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            It's a beautiful day posted at 5:34 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012

            Well, at least the GOP is sticking with science on this one. There's been no link proven between 'violent' video games and aggressive behavior. Those simple links only exist in the minds of simpletons known as progressives; in fact, some studies have found that playing such games often has the opposite effect, reducing the tendency towards violence against animals or other people.

            Most things in life are simply WAY to complex for progressives to get their heads around.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 5:57 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2197

            While raising a child in a loving household with both father and mother is ideal, unfortunately it is not always the case. And it probably isn't the case with blacks as much as whites. But most mass murderers are WHITE!!!!!!! Mass public shootings account for less than one-tenth of 1% of all murders.

            oh and did you see the one about the bomb threat at the Catholic church Lanza and his mother attended. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/worshippers-flee-conn-church-over-threat-report

            Maybe he hated children because of his own childhood experiences?? just saying.

            What a horrific event.

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 5:34 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Republican controlled house of representitives still haven't passed the co-sponsored bill H.R.400 by democrat Rep Joe Baca [CA-43] (introduced 1/24/2011), which would put a warning label on violent video games.

            ‘‘WARNING: Excessive exposure to violent video games
            and other violent media has been linked to aggressive be-
            havior.’’

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:16 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HighTechCowboy posted at 4:21 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.
            -----------------
            I agree. Raising kids, especially boys, without the father (a good father) is just begging for trouble down the road. Hawaii's Family Court is maternal-oriented. It sucks to be a dad here going through divorce court. No matter how good you are, you don't stand a chance.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 4:38 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            A republican rep's comment was that he would have wished the Principal had a gun handy to stop that malicious pervert. I'd have to agree. As far as more gun laws, the horse is long gone from the barn. If some sort of nutcase wants to get weapons, it can be done. For example, the wacko in Conn. killed his own mother to get the weapons. I doubt any laws would have slowed him down a great deal. 50 years ago, such things did not happen. Now such killing sprees happen all over the world. It would seem the human race is in decay where the value of life, the morality of truth, the golden rule etc. etc. aren't worth much. I think maybe it begins with the belief that somehow people are owed a life with no trials, no tribulation, no one to tell them how to behave. It truly is a shame.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:21 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            nh0828 posted at 3:32 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012

            Good post. Our nation does need to have a conversation about parenting and mental illness. Sadly, we'd rather spend more than we can afford on entitlements and overly generous salaries, benefits and pensions for government workers, than spend that money on things we do badly need such as mental hospitals and behavioral control sciences.

            If "mental illness" explains Michael's behavior and that of mass-murderers, then why don't we see a nearly even distribution of female as well as male 'victims' of such mental illness? Why, out of 61 such attacks catalogued by Mother Jones, was only one perpetrator female? The percentage of white male perpetrators is consistent with the percentage they represent of all males. But only one female perpetrator?

            There is one common thread which repeats in almost all of these situations: The male perpetrator was raised by a single mom with no appropriate male role model and source of discipline. This is true in Liza's case as well.

            America needs to get back to valuing and promoting intact family units. 'Broken' homes are not only the source of these tragedies but are also the number one predictor of child poverty and poor educational outcomes.

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:46 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            An interesting and informative read on the existence of evil:

            The End of Evil?
            Neuroscientists suggest there is no such thing.

            http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_spectator/2011/09/does_evil_exist_neuroscientists_say_no_.html

             
          • nh0828 posted at 3:32 pm on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            nh0828 Posts: 249

            Well said, Frank.

            I'm pasting in a piece has been making the rounds on social media; I thought that it might be of interest to some here that may not have seen it yet. I'm more interested in the national conversation on family structure, role models, and especially mental health than that of guns (an argument that I generally see as a lost cause, given the stubborn passions on both sides of it). These incidents seem to be becoming more and more common, and I hope that we as a nation are able to respond to them by whatever social and legislative methods are most effective and appropriate for this day and age.

            The Newton and Portland shootings that occurred this week were perpetrated by individuals of my generation.

            Newton is about the same size as Kalispell.

            This is a conversation and honest evaluation of our society that needs to happen.


            http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

            I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother
            Liza Long

            Three days before 20-year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year-old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

            "I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

            "They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."

            "They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid *****. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"

            "You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid *****. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."

            I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
            A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7- and 9-year-old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

            That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

            We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood-altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

            At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.

            Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30 to 1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

            The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"

            "No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."

            His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."

            That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

            "Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"

            "You know where we are going," I replied.

            "No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"

            I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."

            Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.

            The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—"Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…"

            At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

            For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."

            By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.

            On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."

            And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

            I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

            According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

            When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."

            I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

            With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.

            No one wants to send a 13-year-old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."

            I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

            God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 11:00 am on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            A really nice article by Frank aptly speaking of an evil with the reality that, "... the really truly scary conclusion is that this — or something just as horrible, just as wicked — could not have been avoided."

            There is a line attributed to Socrates: I neither know nor think that I know." This has been interpreted to mean the beginning of wisdom is the realization of how little one truly knows. I would hope that those who begin their mostly amateur analysis of why it happened and how to prevent future happenings of this kind take heed of how little they truly know before they opine.

            Frank shows his wisdom in this article by his acknowledgement of that basic fact, how little we all truly know about the cause of an incident of this kind and how little we know about preventing future acts of such evil. All we know is that good does exist, and the heroism of those protecting the children gave their last in showing us just that. RLS

             
          • It's a beautiful day posted at 9:41 am on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            It's a beautiful day Posts: 1832

            Frank Miele- "As we enter the Christmas season — and celebrate the life of another man who was murdered without cause — let us try to remember that simple lesson."

            IABD- Christians differ with your inductive reasoning for Christ's death as you concluded in your commentary.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:28 am on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Time for a story with a happy ending. (WARNING: The bad guys in this story are Democrats and the good guy is a Republican woman.):

            Michigan's 'hot dog guy' getting new digs after union protesters destroyed his supplies
            By Joshua Rhett Miller
            December 16, 2012

            The “hot dog guy” is getting new digs.

            Clinton Tarver, the owner of Clint’s Hot Dog Cart and Casual Catering, saw his small business thrust into the national spotlight on Tuesday when his supplies were destroyed at a pro-union protest against right-to-work legislation in Lansing, Mich. “Violent” demonstrators tore down a tent where Tarver was serving his dogs, he said, prompting a staff member for a local lawmaker to create an online fundraiser for the 63-year-old downtown fixture. As of Friday, more than $33,000 had been donated.

            “I’m overwhelmed,” Tarver said Friday. “The public has shown such love to me. You never know your true friends until you get down and I’ve had people I thought were pretty close to me and they’ve given me one call. You learn from your endeavors.”

            Lorilea Zabadal, a staff member for Republican state Rep. Al Pscholka, established the fundraiser after learning of Tarver’s plight.

            “Everyone who has passed the hot dog cart knows what a kind and caring individual Clint is,” Zabadal wrote. “He never fails to bestow a smile or friendly greeting. In no way [did] he provoke this attack, nor any of the behavior displayed toward him. Regardless of your position on current legislation, rebuilding Clint's Hot Dogs is something we can all support. Please give what you can to get this deserving businessman back out there!”

            Tarver, who won’t be selling dogs curbside again until March, said he’ll unveil a new hot dog cart when he does thanks to his newfound fortune.

            “First of all, I’m going to get a brand new cart,” he said. “And I have sick sister, so I’m going to help her out and I’m going to help my church too.”

            Tarver said Zabadal is a Facebook friend of his wife, Linda. He’s blown away by her unexpected concern, he said.

            “Well, she’s a vegetarian and it’s really odd that she started this website for me,” he said. “So there’s going to be a Lorilea hot dog. And it’ll be vegetarian.”

            Tarver’s cart will have other new offerings come next spring, although nothing has been finalized as of yet, he said.

            “Right now, I’m just thanking everyone for the gifts and love they’ve shown me,” he said. “I’ve forgiven the people who broke all of my stuff. I’ve prayed for them and that’s where I’m at now.”

            Tarver said he has put countless hot dogs in Lansing’s hungry mouths in the 15-plus years he has operated in and around downtown Lansing. But with a fancy new cart expected by March, he thinks next year may be best season yet.

            “Sometimes God just has your back,” he said. “For this to happen to me, one of his most grateful servants, is just a blessing. He’s showing me that he’s looking out for me after this tragedy. I am excited and Lord knows I’ve wanted to get a new cart. Now I can pay cash.”

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/16/michigan-hot-dog-guy-getting-new-digs-after-protesters-destroyed-his-supplies/#ixzz2FEV70g6G

             
          • lousia posted at 8:45 am on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            lousia Posts: 196

            Thank you Frank very well written, and Rob , and Mooseberyinn Thank you..
            I Appreciate your comments, and I pray people will try and understand this horrible happening.Our society has changed so much over a few years, I think just my opinion but lots of it is the terrible Video games that have been played and are in young peoples heads. and that is so sad, I have seen some that are just plain horrible no rhyme or reason to them , just killing. Thanks

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:32 am on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9886

            Rob123 posted at 3:05 am on Sun, Dec 16, 2012

            Well said.

            Studies have repeatedly shown that most of our serial-killers and mass-murderers have been raised by their mothers without a father being present or with a largely absent father in the household. The few exceptions had horribly abusive fathers.

            Studies into juvenile delinquency have resulted in similar findings.

            A mother's love indeed is often not enough and not open to a more objective view of their children. A good father is essential, especially for boys, and regardless of what idiot feminists claim.

            Succeeding as a husband and a father is the only lasting and truly meaningful achievement in a man's life. I'm sure those fathers whose children survived the Sandy Hook attack are holding their children even closer.

            To those who lost a child, mere words can offer no comfort, but know that the rest of us grieve with you.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 7:55 am on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2667

            Well said Frank. I think nearly all of us share the grief of those families and I cannot even begin to imagine the evil of the shooter. May God have mercy and give comfort to those families, and justice for the murderer.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 3:05 am on Sun, Dec 16, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6573

            As an initial editorial after being confronted by the horror of Fridays massacre of children and adults, your editorial is a good coping mechanism. Thank you.
            As more information is learned about the shooter, he is already fitting into a psychological profile. Along with his mother. I hope people pay attention to this as it comes forth, and recognize it for what it is, and manage to learn from it and use the knowledge within their own families.
            It's way to early to draw conclusions, especially concerning some ancient metaphysical evil that exists independent of human psychology. It's already obvious that his mother pulled her High IQ son out of school, after counselors tried to talk to her about his deviant behavior and some remedies; and so she home schooled him. A mother's love is not the most objective reality.....
            Sadly, we accept expert advice and tune-ups for our vehicles way more often than our Selves or our Loved Ones.

             
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