One of the many delicious ironies of the climate-change debate is that the "settled science" crowd is playing the role of Noah while the global-warming skeptics are the "what, me worry?" crew.
And, sure enough, if the planet heats up by 5 or 10 degrees, we will have plenty to worry about. You would have to be a fool not to care about such a sea change in our climate.
So, year after year, the climate-changers work like Noah on his ark, hammering together their computer models and their "cap-and-trade" schemes in an effort to keep the planet afloat through the coming hard times that they think will be precipitated by mankind's silly little efforts to industrialize the global economy and, shudder, to "drive cars."
You have to admit, that's scary stuff. Forget waterboarding. I wake up late at night in a cold sweat thinking that someone has tied me to a board and thrown me into the back of an old Ford truck that gets only 12 miles per gallon! Talk about a bumpy ride!
But the real torture is watching the "settled science" crowd push levers and manipulate data in an effort to keep people scared with smoke and thunderous noise even after their Wizard of Oz "doom machine" has been exposed. Time and time again in the past several years, the curtain has been drawn back to reveal global-warming hysteria as nothing more than a politically motivated scheme to push social policy leftward.
So what about the science?
OK, here's what we know. The warmest year recorded by our modern-day Noahs was in 1998, just about the time the global-warming fever was starting to peak. Since then, there has never been a year with global temperatures even close to reaching that level. So in practical terms, there has been a temperature decline since 1998, not an increase. See http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/scarewatch/really_cooling.pdf for Lord Monckton's analysis of this trend. Moreover, some scientists predict that global cooling could continue for at least the next 20 years (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17742)
That's just the beginning of the cavalcade of evidence that suggests the global-warming movement is unlikely to sell their life-saving "ark" anytime soon except to the most gullible of science consumers.
For instance, Marco Tedesco and Andrew Monaghan just reported in "Geophysical Research Letters" that the ice melt during the last Antarctic summer was the lowest recorded during the past 30 years. (http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2009/10/06) In other words, despite scary stories that regularly appear in the mainstream media about big chunks of ice breaking off the Antarctic continent, there may not be anything to worry about. Tedesco and Monaghan are global-warming supporters, so they don't find the recent trend significant, but others like Greg Roberts, writing in The Australian, do: See www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25348657-401,00.html
Another significant factor to be considered by anyone who is actually interested in the science, and not just the politics, of global warming is whether the sun plays any role in heating and cooling of the planet's surface. The logical answer would seem to be yes, and it is thus interesting to note that the sun is experiencing a two-year-long solar minimum, which is a reference to very low levels of sunspots during the same time frame when many regions nationally and globally have been experiencing unusually cold temperatures. Almost makes you think there might indeed be something left to study here. (An interesting analysis of the phenomenon may be read at 'change science is based have predicted any such decline in temperatures as we have been experiencing. According to this "settled science," it really shouldn't be happening - because while temperatures have been going down, the level of man-produced carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has been rising due to the rapid industrialization of places like China and India.
If you have ever been to China, you know there is plenty of reason to want to restrict pollution there. Call it the wish to breathe fresh air. But that is a quality-of-life issue, and not a doomsday issue. If the argument were not about climate change, but about common-sense pollution control, then I and a lot of other conservatives would be much more likely to support global treaties that promote clean skies.
But don't hype the argument up with fake science, OK?
The most blatant example of this is the so-called "hockey stick" graph of 1998, which supposedly showed a huge spike in global temperatures starting with the beginning of the industrial age. Created by climatologist Michael E. Mann and some collaborators, the hockey stick provided the underpinnings for the "Chicken Little" report by the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in 2001. It also helped Al Gore to snag a Nobel Peace Prize for his movie "An Inconvenient Truth," which may someday earn an official asterisk next to the word Truth pointing people to George Orwell's "Ministry of Truth" in the novel "1984" where Truth is defined as whatever is politically expedient.
Indeed, in this brave new world that we inhabit, it appears that even science is handmaiden to politics. The "hockey stick" has been subject to revision and retrenchment several times over the years, but most recently the stick has shriveled into a truncheon, which hopefully will be used to beat the global-warming theory back into the padded cell of conspiracy science where it belongs. (Kind of reminiscent of Jason and his hockey mask in the "Friday the 13th" slasher movies, isn't it?)
Mathematician Steve McIntyre and economist Ross McKitrick have demonstrated conclusively that both the mathematics and the data behind the "hockey stick" graph are flawed, but most recently McIntyre was able to access part of the raw data which had been kept secret for many years and has shown that the "hockey stick" is really a political construct that was created by cherry-picking data, albeit possibly through negligence rather than malfeasance.
In essence, and without bogging this non-scientific column down too deep in the minutiae of science, McIntyre after many requests was finally able to view the raw tree-ring data used in the hockey-stick study from a Russian peninsula called Yamal. He has demonstrated that if complete data from the region is used, the hockey stick's spike disappears, and most reasonable fears of global warming dissipate with it. You can read one of McIntyre's key reports at http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7168
It's as if we woke up and realized the scary guy in the hockey mask wasn't chasing us after all. It was all just a bad dream.
Or as climate change skeptic Anthony Watts proclaimed, in a convenient corollary of our "Wizard of Oz" metaphor, "Ding dong the stick is dead."
• • • • • •
Coincidentally, a tea-party group called Northwest Montana Patriots is sponsoring a showing of "Not Evil, Just Wrong" at 7 p.m. today at the Outlaw Hotel in Kalispell. The movie subtitled "The True Cost of Global Warming Hysteria" promotes a skeptical view of man-caused climate change. There is a suggested $2 donation.
• Frank Miele is managing editor of the Daily Inter Lake and writes a weekly column. E-mail responses may be sent to edit@dailyinterlake.com
Pete
Jack...spot on.
Rob123
jack....I agree with you. Yet, what the Obama Staffers were doing was trying to point out the difference between News Reporting with Editorial Content here and there, and the onslought of 24hour Editorialized News masquarading as News, per se. A noble attempt, but sure to fail. And as Obama knows, and his young staffers are finding out, it's best to ignore it......Or you could end up with a Jackson and his drunken buddies and their horses in the White House.
JackPoynter
Sorry, forgot. For a complete history of the first contested election of the new Republic, which includes an in-depth study of the Federalists, the Alien and Sedition Acts, and the country's reaction to them, see America on Fire, by Bernard Weisberger. Your library should have a copy.
JackPoynter
Fixed News Network...huh. Obama is well on his way to being remembered as the person who reinstuted the Alien and Sedition Acts. John Adams and the Federalists didn't like what the newspapers of the time were saying about them, this would be 1790 something, so they introduced Bills in the brand new congress to make it a crime to criticize anyone in the government. As soon as Jefferson was elected as the next president, with a new congress, he had those acts repealed. The nation didn't see another such heinous sets of actions until Lincoln suspended habeas corpus in 1861, to silence the opposition newspapers. Many presidents have been angry at the newspapers since then, but none have been stupid enough to attack them openly. For Obama, the first thing that happened after he excluded Fox from a news conference was that all the other media in the pool said they'd boycott the conference if Fox wasn't included. The next thing that has happened is Obama is taking fire from both Democrats and Republicans over this.
this isn't like agcc, this is happening in front of you right now. And the media, left and right, has their act together on this. In no way are they going to let ANY president dictate to them who can report the news.
This whole episode has been very instructive. I would like Obama to succeed as president, because he is OUR president, all of ours, and much depends on him. If he fails, he fails. But when he attacks one of the central pillars of our democracy, the repercussions must be swift and intense. We cannot allow him to silence ANY oppostion, because therein lies the opening wedge to disintegration.
Franks, as a member of the media, I would hope you have an opinion on this also.
rtr
Rob
So much could be done to clean the air AND create jobs if we could just get the uneducated dummies to do something besides fear change and have their opinions reinforced by the 'Fixed' News Network, as moderates, independents and everyone to the Left of Attila the Hun calls Fox.
====================
The problem is not what you call the uneducated it is you socialists that want the cap and trade tax that the EDUCATED know will do nothing but fill government coffers and the likes of Al Gores pockets "Note Al Gores carbon company would be the first to benifit and that would do nothing to clean the air".
It is a total scam to say humans can chance the climate.
What you did state that is true is that the price of oil has to get high enough for it to become profitable to have other energies because they cost a lot more.
Rob123
Ashland is Very pretty. Ye old Rogue River rafting days from the 70's.....and of course Shakespeare Festival/Theater all summer long. A worthy place to visit or live. In the 50's to late 70's, Ashland had the highest number of Millionaires per Hundred population in the U.S.. As a poor college student on the G.I. Bill, looking for a place to hang out one summer (Early-70's) it became obvious it wasn't 'cheap', although lots of dollars doing yard work for older couples on small estates. Hope it hasn't changed to much?
Bronco
In Ashland visiting the two in college here. Great little rich hippie town. Had the best Indian Cuisine this side of the Pacific. Saw my grandson in Salem, a four year old athlete who rides an electric dirt bike. How times have changed. My son, his father, is an engineer for the railroad. Great to see all of them. And you're right, Rob, carbon footprint conscious all of them. Also found a $100 bill. Guess when you give from the heart, the heart of the universe gives back. Funny, when I was young I used to think that was so ReTaRded. Guess one grows when one has an open mind.
Rob123
benzed.....I watch such stuff a lot, and recently the Big Boys are throwing more money that direction as Crude Oil hits $80.00 while Supply and Demand would dictate more of a $50.00 price. If the dollar stays weak, and the economy actually picks up in 2010, crude is way back over $120.00 a bbl again......Most these technologies don't make sense until $65.00 BBL Crude Oil is 'normal', if your a finance dude playing with someone else's pension fund or 401K and are trying to make a good return on investment. The laggard concerning such technologies is the infrastructure of getting it to market in quantities worthy of mass production, and the lag time to switch fleets over to new engine types. The cut in air pollution at Long Beach Harbor by forcing all the old tractors (they used to go there to die, half worn out and not safe for over the road, but fine for tugging trailors from point a to point b) to switch over to either new engines with ULSD #1 Diesel plus new exhaust systems OR switch to LNG powered Engines, has been incredible, and it's only 1/2 done and 5 years old. So much could be done to clean the air AND create jobs if we could just get the uneducated dummies to do something besides fear change and have their opinions reinforced by the 'Fixed' News Network, as moderates, independents and everyone to the Left of Attila the Hun calls Fox.
Rob123
Bronco.....Oregon Coast, eh?......Beautiful country, with many old friends still there from my college days, and many journeys back over the years. And an enigma of sorts, as college educated move in despite it's 10%+ official unemployment, and take jobs busing tables or whatever, hoping the economy turns around. It has a culture that is different and rare, and quite accepting; with "Green" efforts very pronounced, and all forms of alternative lifestyles that are accepted. Portland is a modern day Amsterdam, sort of? Sufi Dancing at the Old Church by Portland State since the late 60's, and Health Food Grocery Stores the size of a Safeway filled with Certified Organic by State Licensed Certified Organic people, etc. All taken quite seriously. And despite the unemployment rate, people keep moving in, stressing the infrastructure. A lot easier to be unemployed and on the edge of, or in the 'homeless' realm, living in Oregon than in most other Western States. A sense of sharing with 'whomever' that is lacking or restrained to 'family' in most areas. I enjoyed my time there, but moved on. My oldest son still lives there, and is happy as he struggles to experience everything, while working on his second Masters degree. And he points out my carbon footprint.....politely, and with a lot of educated facts and scenarios. My old college roommate made a huge hunk of money in Portland, was semi-retired, and in 98 or so got into the bottom floor/ startup phase in Bend, Or. (think Whitefish X 2 with Steroids). His latest dispatch was even more sobering than the previous, as he awaits sanity in housing while sitting on more than his net worth in big houses around yet another 18 hole golf course.......Bends unemployment is officially around 20%, as it was a huge magnet for the Willamette Valley folks, while the Willamette Valley was a big magnet for the California folks, each selling their inflated houses at eye popping prices and moving and buying an even bigger house for slightly less money......Real Estate in America.....a shrinking pie, but filled with orgy thinking.
rtr
I did my part with Global warming today, I lit up a pile of leaves and braches that put a plume of smoke 50 feet in the air so the clouds would have some particulate to attach rain drops to and the CO2 that was emitted from it will help the regeneration of plant life.
rtr
http://earth2tech.com/2008/03/27/15-algae-startups-bringing-pond-scum-to-fuel-tanks/
15 Algae Startups Bringing Pond Scum to Fuel Tanks
If you want new technology that may become viable for a small part of the transportation industry when it comes to diesel fuel this is the way to go..
rtr
Benznd, It is funny how you follow Fank's columns from out of state and yet you obviously don't read the paper if you did you would know the Falthead Valley is using the Methane at the dump for power right now or very soon not sure which one.
That is very old science......
benznd
rtr, while riding on the hood or fender of your dad's car shooting gofers, did he ever try to harm you in any way? Like speed up quickly then hit the brakes hard followed by a "got ya" laugh? How old were you? And you did not do a dirt road plant, did he call ya an f'ing idiot? Just crossed my mind. And please, when you get the time, tell me about Dick Cheney and his early life. He would have been one of your heroes way back then I ah thinken anyway.
benznd
PhysOrg.com) -- Researchers at the University of Washington and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have taken an important step in converting methane gas to a liquid, potentially making it more useful as a fuel and as a source for making other chemicals.
hought you might be interested in this Rob and others who are concerned about the ramifications of rising temps.
rtr
Bronco you are way to gulable.
You wouldn't be out on the Oregon coast if your were looking for a job first off.
Second off the BUMS have been kicked out of Washington, Utah and Idaho and Oregon is an easy target for the feel sorry for me BUMS.
Bronco
Traveled down the Oregon coast today and was taken aback by men and women with signs asking for assistance. One man in his thirties at a rest station had a sign "Laid off. Six kids at home. Need money. Need a job." Said he'd been laid off since last year and the unemployment ran out. Lady said her car broke down on her way to California for her grandma's funeral. Showed me the receipt for her fuel pump. Asked for gas money so she and her daughter could get farther. Hawaii is more socialistic and help is easily available. But my island is only 40-miles long so not so far to go for help. Guess the ReTaRded economy has been going on for some time now. In Portland I saw lots of homeless, and not the ReTaRded kind either. Surprised to see so many restaurants and few grocery stores. Doesn't anyone eat at home anymore? We only eat out once a week. That ReTaRds our food expenses and keeps us healthier too.
rtr
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/10/06/speaker-pelosi-hints-at-massive-tax-hike/
“Speaker Pelosi Hints at Massive Tax Hike”
Remember what I said about Pelosi being out of touch with reality and destroying her own party from with in.
The picture is enough to make you want to puke but if you can get past that it is a must read if you want to see the Republicans best ally.
rtr
I scrolled down but I didn't see anything about Bush, The guy is a funny cartoonist so I am sure it would have been funny.
Well back to the weekend chores, Kind of like you and your leaves Rob, Mine is lawn tables, chairs, outdoor lights, insulation, you know the drill.
Rob123
rtr.....funny, and it's 100% true everytime for everybody........Did you scroll down and see the "Bush Legacy"? also funny......
rtr
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/archive/236/blog/w/lee_camp/a_detailed_analysis_of_obamas_2_7767.html
This is hilarious.
Rob123
The Frost Bite leaves are finally falling off my trees today. I have been worried these past two weeks that the Record Cold from the Global Warming two weeks ago had damaged all my leafy trees and I would never have the Joy of Raking again. A world devoid of fallen leaves would be a sad state? Like New Jersey after a soaking rain.....Ya never know what might bubble up to the surface. And it's smart to put some litmus paper on the end of a 10 foot pole and try to determine if it's ok to walk in.
rtr
http://community.marketwatch.com/groups/us-politics/topics/al-gore-being-sued-weather
This was posted a 131 days ago.
JackPoynter
In my second childhood and loving it: My brother and I - Backyard swimming pools, Georgia style, about 1947.
Plantman
rtr, you wrote: "Are you trying to be a puppy by following me, My mother by reprimanding me, or my coconscious
I'm not trying to be anything different here than anyone else who posts on this site: that is, a voice for social change. That's what you're trying to be...or at least that what I suspect you're trying to be. Here it is, an online editorial page which is politically- and/or socially-charged, whereon the general public (often also politically-/socially-charged) gets to post comments on the editorial. And they don't always stay on-subject, do they? (I skipped over most of the Native American posts, as that was off-subject for me, but I'll get back to read them later.)
As such, the social problem I see is this runaway incivility that has taken hold of trans-party discourse. You ask me if I'm trying to be your conscience: no...I'm just trying to *jog* your conscience. If you didn't consistently treat me with disrespect I wouldn't bother replying to you with these types of comments. If you started treating me with respect, likewise I wouldn't have to direct admonitory comments to you.
You also wrote: "I had finally had enough of wasting my time on you. It's my American right to ignore you."
Good for you, you're taking the advice I gave you earlier. Now, I don't for an instant think that you *will* actually ignore me. I suspect that as soon as I forward an opinion (be it social or political) you will be right there to insult me. On the other hand, maybe you will respond, but in a more moderate manner. Either you'll continue to provide evidence of my point (that incivility is rampant in public/social//political discourse), or in your changing your habits I will have achieved my goal of helping to spread civility.
But as to your comment "you have been insulting and demming to me so many times", I will repeat what I've said before (at least I think I've said it...I've certainly thought it): just because you say something like it's fact doesn't mean it is fact. I've refrained from insulting you because your insults are exactly what I've wanted to do without. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." And, though you might want other readers here to think I've insulted you, they can find out the truth by reviewing the various posts we've exchanged.
As I've done before, I'll wish you peace.
rtr
Plantman you have been insulting and demming to me so many times I had finally had enough of wasting my time on you.
It's my American right to ignore you.
Plantman
As to rtr's earlier comment: "If what I am say is not ture then point out to me why the real scientists that Al Gore was using their names are sueing him"
I've found many sites that talk about the "impending" suit, but nothing about it actually going forward. In fact I even found a "Sue Us" Petition (http://frankbi.wordpress.com/the-sue-us-petition/), which suggests that while people are talking about suing, it may be all talk.
Furthermore, still no answer to my question of whether Al Gore was misusing these scientists names, as rtr suggests.
That said, I'm not saying that Al Gore was using sound facts (tho as Jack pointed out "you don't have to posit total criminality to understand it"); I clearly questioned that 3 posts ago (the site I recommended was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI&feature=related). But, as JackPoynter put it: "If one makes a statement, one should either cite a source or be prepared to do so, or simply state that it's a personal opinion." Hope you don't mind me quoting you, Jack.
BTW, Jack, I'm glad you got a chance to view that site (yay for high-speed internet) and I hope that everyone that posts on this site will get a chance to look at it. It raises a lot of questions in a way that is more respectful and less vitriolic than most of the sites I've seen.
Speaking of "vitriolic", maybe I should even clarify a point. When you yell at someone, or use demeaning, insulting, or otherwise uncivil language, can you really expect them to listen to what you have to say? If you have a point to make, make it clearly and with support evidence. Otherwise, all you're doing is making the other person mad, which makes them want to find ways to make you mad. And then your *point*, however valid, is never made, and you're frustrated because they won't see reason (you never gave them any reason to see, or if you did, you also gave them reason not to pay attention).
THIS is the point I keep trying to make, because it's important to me that we as a nation live up to the hype of being the "greatest nation in the world." If we ARE that, then maybe we should act in ways that prove it.
rtr
Plantman, Are you trying to be a puppy by following me, My mother by reprimanding me, or my coconscious.
Now be a nice little sheep dog and go back to playing in the freeway since I have had enough fun with you.
rtr
Hey jack, That is great stuff, I am not much into books but his conferences on the youtubes are great.,,,Thanks
Plantman
rtr, you said: "you just like to reread your long posts over and over and over again.
Now go play in the Freeway and leave me alone will you."
To the first, yes, some of my posts are pretty long, but that's 'cause I want to make sure whatever statement I make is understandable and has evidence where needed.
On the flip side, many of your comments are very short, containing an insinuation or an unsupported (or even unsupportable) opinion, and then an insult. Some of your posts are longer, and have more in the way of theory and evidence; these are the ones I want to see you make more of.
As to your second "point," that's just more evidence of uncivil discourse.
Really, if you were to talk to people this way in *real life* you wouldn't get very far. Why do you think it's OK here? Just 'cause everyone else does it?
And don't take my admonitions so personally. Even tho they are directed at you (because you are the person who's directing hate at me), they are warning to everyone who reads them that there is something wrong with the type of language that people are using.
Ask yourself this...would your mother approve of this conduct? Would your grandmother? And if your kids were talking that way, would *you* approve? In fact, this goes back to your first point ("you just like to reread your long posts over and over again): personally, I'd rather make a point once and not have to make it again. But is my reposting on a subject any different than what everyone else is doing here? No it isn't.
But I understand why you posted it, since it fits the way you respond to me and many others: *you* are the one who wants to start fights. Or at least you want to discourage the person at whom you direct the posts until they stop trying to make a good point.
Sorry, is that *not* the case? Than I'm certainly willing to hear you tell why it is you feel that decency should be left out of internet discussion.
JackPoynter
Bad fingers! Bad fingers!
Plimer is an Australia agcc (anthropogenic global climate change) skeptic.
JackPoynter
Google "ian plimer". Lots of the stuff on the web referencing his book "Heaven and Earth". Plimer is an Australian acg skeptic.
rtr
Jack
But I'm still wondering, what is it in the human psyche that triggers these mass movements of the flock?
=============================
Jack, It is the I just want the feel good and someone to take care of me mentality.
Examples
1.In the Regan days “Which I could not stand” it was I will create this new American utopia.
A.Then it all comes crashing down when "Newt" fell and people started wising up.
2.Then came Al Gore, A known fraud from every angle but for some reason the drew in the young and dumb.
A.Couldn’t keep his flock in check and his the will on the people has never really worked for him but it’s the likes of the “Nobel Peace Prize” people still trying to keep him alive.
3. Now we have Obama that works on the I can make every thing ok and the government owes you and will take care of you mentality that worked for him.
A. Remember “Newt”, The same will become of Obama do to the likes of Himself, Pelosi, Reid and the rest being so out of touch with reality that will destroying their party from with in since it is obvious they could not and can not deliver what they promised.
There is a pattern here that a blind man could see but doe what ever reason you are correct it keeps on working for them no matter what party it is. “Either people really are that lazy and ignorant or they just chose to take the easy way out every time” Until they find out the next time they were just fooled once again..
You can fool some of the people all the time but you can't fool all the people all the time, and those that were fooled will not stay fooled for ever.
Rob123
Frank: "If anyone wants to purchase an electronic copy of the original stories, let me know, as I am starting to provide sales of such stuff in PDF and jpeg formats." As a businessman, I was wondering when all this ' electronic free stuff' would end. An obvious drag to the bottom line. And with the demise of the $1500.00 per car cost of advertising since 2008, it's about time the Media Moguls and their Board of Directors woke up and changed their model. No matter how outrageous reporters come across, a society without them is really, really scary. And to lose 'the 4th Estate' because of slow car sales, is absurd. P.S. Can a tight wad with tight Dutch Genes go down to the Library and Micro Fish said articles for free?
Rob123
Jack: "But I'm still wondering, what is it in the human psyche that triggers these mass movements of the flock?" A wise man, sir.....Please continue sharing your insights.
Rob123
Benznd.....I think about the young soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan a lot, read their Obits, and watch their stories on "Frontline" and other programs that try to capture what is going on in their day to day struggle without all the over riding political editing of the sponsors. It's important to remember that in WW2, American Soldiers hit Normandy in Mid June, and the war was over in April; plus 1 infantryman on the front line with 10 support troops in the rear with a rare artillary round. And the infantryman, although faced with a brutal onslought, was pulled back every 2 weeks or so for R&R, resupply, and replacement. Very different than Vietnam or Iraq & Afghanistan, with no front lines, no enemy with uniforms, most fights are when the enemy decides to start it because of a certain perceived advantage , and the gut wrenching reality of after the 5 to 10 minute 'shoot out at the ok corral', a lot of dead civilians from high powered weapons on full automatic plus maybe some enemy combatants (hard to tell if when their weapons have been picked up for future use) and probably some friends killed and wounded. A five minute episode of adrenaline and horror after a month of boring, hot, sweaty, nothing......That's War, from the inside......and with no "Front Line", it happens everywhere, at anytime, for the full 15 month 'Tour of Duty'. As a Psychologist, you know what that does to the Human Condition. Too much for some, others put it under layers of diversion, while some enjoy it. And I agree with you on Cheney and Bush and their ChickenHawk stance on War. Although I think Cheney was 4F, and Bush was the Rich Boy guided by Rich Hands. A reality in America seldom discussed. Why did Al Gore only spend 6 months, and at Bien Hoa AFB? A few 120MM rockets now and then, with all those airplanes and million gallon fuel tanks, but little damage. Probably where he came up with the word "Inconvient" in his film "Inconvient Truth". And his "Truth" is so subjective, it should be changed to "Truism". And finally, Why are we killing Taliban in Afghanistan? Wasn't our enemy al qaeda?
JackPoynter
Plantman,
I watched youtube presentation you and Pete recommended. In fact, I watched all four parts of it, good thing I finally went to DSL a while back.
What the good professor was saying coincides with what I've been thinking for a good while. Actually, I've moved past that part and am currently trying to figure out what's going on with the human herd at this point, hence my diatribe about millenial fervor when I first got here on this site.
He says in there that he thinks some fraudulent data presentation going on and maybe a scam or two, the implication is that it's all fraudulent and all a scam.
I don't think so. I think there is indeed some fraud going on, and no doubt some of it is a scam, but you don't have to posit total criminality to understand it.
Some people think being a scientist is a calling, like being a priest or a minister, or like school teaching used to be, (and still is for some.) And for some scientists it is indeed a calling, they live for understanding as much as they can about the universe and everything in it. But for many, it's just a way to make a living. And when the NSF says, with the best intentions in the world, "we're only going to fund studies in support of anthropogenic global warming / cooling / climate change, because we think the anti view is a bunch of obstructionist nonsense," then they are guaranteeing studies that support anthropogenic global whatsis. No fraud involved, these folks just pick things to study that will support that stuff. Or they think they are, anyway. And when one of them finds something in their own field which they think legitimately supports it, they push it for all they're worth. Why do I think so? I spent a couple of decades in Washington, working for people who think that way.
How about it all being a scam? Not all of it, but scam artists are attracted to this sort of thing. If the opposite was being pushed, scam artists would be pushing that side also; and, if things continue to tilt in the direction of ant-anthropogenic global climate change, you can bet your bippy that there are going to be some scams on that side also.
The professor talks about the really stupid way a lot of the temperature sensing devices were placed, on hot asphalt, on top of hot buildings, next to air conditioners exhaust vents, and so on. Well, that's going to happen. A university gets a measuring device, sends the maintenance men out to place it, and the maintenance men discover that they can't put it where it's supposed to be put, so they pick another place, and if no one checks up on them, there it sits, right next to the barbeque grill, measuring the hot coals instead of the ambient temperature.
There's more than enough laziness and stupidity going around to account for most things without assuming maliciousness.
So what's the answer? The same answer we always need in cases like this: eternal vigilance, challenge the answers, push back hard, maintain debate, and don't let the controllers have it all their own way.
The way to h*ll is paved with good intentions, the way to heaven requires a good healthy dose of skepticism.
But I'm still wondering, what is it in the human psyche that triggers these mass movements of the flock?
rtr
Yeah, Plantman, I get it now you just like to reread your long posts over and over and over again.
Now go play in the Freeway and leave me alone will you.
rtr
rtr, we had a DRAFT! Cheney dodged the draft, with intent, as he had no desire to go, maybe? Then he became a hawk after he was a wimp.
=========================
Sounds just like the coward Obama to me.
benznd
rtr, we had a DRAFT! Cheney dodged the draft, with intent, as he had no desire to go, maybe? Then he became a hawk after he was a wimp.
Plantman
rtr, you wrote: "Hey Plantman, Is all you are doing right now is trying to start a fight, Give it up moron."
No, I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm trying to get you to realize that it's better to treat people with respect than to call them names. If I've touched a nerve perhaps it's because you realize that I've got a point. Otherwise I figure you probably would have simply called me a communist or some other silly thing.
If I *was* trying to start a fight (or if anyone else was), you'd still have the option of taking the moral high road. In such a case, you could: 1) refrain from responding (if you don't hit the ball back to them, they've got nothing to play off of); 2) respond in a logical and respectful manner (showing that you're the better man). I'm sure there are other options one could choose and still take the moral high road, but you get the point.
rtr
Hey Benznd, I find you assumption that Cheney was a draft dodger quite funny.
Obama has been nothing but a ghetto organizer and never volunteered for the first Golf war either.
I suppose he was just a stand down draft dodger then that didn’t even have guts enough to join the National guard to protect his own country at home.
Now your Messiah is expanding both wars and enlarging what Bush started and you are complaining about what might I ask?
Are you related to sensible, Serious question by the way?
JackPoynter
Ben,
ref my medical conditions, actually the only comment I made was that I wasn't doing very well today. I am, alas, owner of many of the ills flesh is heir to, but it's just my age. I read somewhere that you're supposed to go completely worn out, with a blonde in one hand and a drink in the other, doing a bootlegger broadside into the grave with a scream of "My Gosh, what a party!" I've had an interesting life, and all things considered, a good time. I don't drink, and my wife has too good a right cross for me to run around on her, but I'm working on the worn out part, though I don't plan on going for many years yet.
In fact, they told me I can't take it with me, so I've decided, like Jack Benny, I'm not going.
In any case, nothing is imminent, I'm just wore out today.
rtr
Hey Plantman, Is all you are doing right now is trying to start a fight, Give it up moron.
rtr
Hey Frank, Thank You very much, I was young and sitting on the hood of my Dad's 1951 Chevy riding down the road on the hood gopher hunting, A slap on the hood to get him to stop and bang, dead gopher…”Great times”
Then I remember we came across the people by the Indian grave with the Indian bones laying on a carpet and the hole open so you could see the artifacts, Pretty cool when you were that young and I do remember they said they thought it was to tall for a local Indian.
At that age I didn’t not follow up on it and the discussion brought it to mind today.
Thanks Again, even if I was mistaken about the age of it.
Plantman
I've some of the info Pete sent me to, and done some further Googling. The most compelling info I found was a 4-part presentation by Prof. Bob Carter on YouTube. The link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI&feature=related. I think it's the most concise, approachable piece of scientific argument that I've seen so far. I urge everyone who posts on this site to watch it, Lefties and Righties. Again, Pete, thanks.
Plantman
rtr, you said: "His complement to Pete was just to belittle me is all.
Note: Pete stated he found it in 10 seconds"
Actually, it wasn't to belittle you. I was pointing out that someone who might disagree with my opinions could still treat me with respect. For that I thanked him. Yes, I mentioned your name and the fact that I hoped that *you* could have been as respectful, but if you feel belittled by that, that's probably your conscience.
As to the second, yes I noticed his "10 seconds" comment, but as barbs go, it was much more subtle than the ones I've received from you.
benznd
Jack, sorry you are not doing too well today. I do not recall your comments about your current medical issues, just for you to know that I "heard" what you said. And Rob, all the stuff (not the word I initially wanted to use) that has followed you from that brief time in Vietnam is disturbing to me. Too many people just don't understand what happens to young men and women who experience that type of trauma. Many live with it every day, all too often without understanding "why" am I feeling this way, emotionally or physically. Recently we lost 8 soldiers in one unit in Afghanistan. While working the beet field, I thought to myself. We work as a team. Each person has their role and personalities ( about 8 workers) that come through on the CB chatter. Those 8 young soldiers functioned as a team, individual personalities and responsibilities. Killed. My heart aches for their families. Will we ever get it? Cheney purposely evaded the draft. What is that all about! Bush was in the Reserves but his addictive personality, we all know about his youth. Don't know what brought that all to mind.
Editor
Hi: I was able to confirm the existence of the Bowdish skeleton in our archives. However, rtr's memory was just slightly faulty... It was actually April of 1967. Here's a paragraph from a 1971 Inter Lake about a local museum: "An attraction to many visitors is an Indian grave taken intact in 1967 from a site where it was discovered on the John Bowdish farm north of Kalispell. After checking the skeleton anthropologists determined existence of the aboriginal to be between 1750 and 1810." If anyone wants to purchase an electronic copy of the original stories, let me know, as I am starting to provide sales of such stuff in PDF and jpeg formats. You can e-mail me at edit@dailyinterlake.com
benznd
Pete, how much do we spend per day in Iraq? Also, the best higher ed instructors are not only well read but well traveled. I receive emails from MIT and notice that a significant number of these emails come from individuals with Asian names. NOT English. Then we have individuals such as yourself ensuring a mediocre college education for all. The Asian names at MIT are the canary in the mine.
rtr
Jack it didn't work for me either, Maybe "Frank" can run a quick seach for us from 1967 to 1972 just to cover all the bases using your "human skeleton" and "Bowdish"..
Just a thought, if not I will keep scratching my head.
rtr
Hey Jack, Thanks, "You did well" It does have me wondering now where the information could be found.
Unfortunately my Folk's, Aunts and Uncles have all pasted away or I could call them to find where the information might be.
I'll keep scratching head and maybe in time I can find it, It was very interesting and they knew it dated back farther than just normal Indians of the west but they had no way to tell just how far back..
JackPoynter
I'll be ripped. It did it again. the search term is "human skeleton".
JackPoynter
In the second paragraph I searched on . Don't know why the search terms disappeared.
JackPoynter
I'm not doing really well today, and I'm not guaranteeing I dotted every 'i' and crossed every 't', but this is what I did, without getting any results, on the "bowdish farm skeleton in 1969 or 1970". It might be interesting at least with respect to the search method.
I went to google news (www.google.com, then click the 'news' url on the top bar,)
and I searched on . Make sure you press 'search news' and not 'search the web'
That will return a huge amount of hits. On the left you will see a list of years, and down toward the bottom the word 'archives'. For 1969-1970 you will need to press 'archives'.
That will return all the hits in the archives, plus a graphic frequency distribution of results by year across the top. In this case, you will click on the bar for 1960-1979.
That will give you a secondary bar with a finer distribution by year for the years 1960-1979. Click on 1968-1969. That gives a monthly distribution for those two years, and you will notice there is only one bar in the spring of 1969, for April. Click on that bar, and a story on weed control pops up. So that isn't it.
At the top of the page you will see a distribution in light blue for 1860-2000, with the distribution for 1960-1979 marked off. Click on that again, and when you get the results, this time click on 1970 - 1971. There are no stories in 1971, and only a couple in jan-june 1970. None of these fit.
So, unless it wasn't in spring, or it was in some other year, there are no stories that fit in the google archives. Doesn't mean it isn't out there somewhere.
rtr
Hey Rob, If there is some way to go through the Daily Interlake archive of 1969 and 1970 "Months April to June" of each year the dig up of the Bowdish skeleton may be in there since I think it made the paper back then.
I believe it was reported as "Unknown Indian another words they really weren't sure even back then if it was an Indian or not do to it's size" that was passing through this area that had died and was found on the Bowdish farm.
I am not sure if the Interlake keeps computer searchable records that you can go through that far back or not.
Just a thought.
Rob123
""$130,000 for 16 professors to study the "truth and meaning" of life according to Aristotle"......This particular item caught my eye and I wondered if Rob and Bronco were involved in this particular study. ;-)
I suggested a study on the Complete History of whomever came up with, and managed to get through, the very first "I plead the 5th!" .
Pete
"As if the life of a college professor weren't easy enough, millions of taxpayer dollars are going to fund monthlong vacations for sightseeing scholars in Europe and South America, part of the $144 million budget provided for the National Endowment for the Humanities.
Government watchdogs say those trips are a waste of taxpayer money, and they're not alone on an eye-popping list of NEH funding for projects, including:
$400,000 for an exhibition "exploring the importance of plants as a source of inspiration for noted American poet Emily Dickinson"
$350,000 to explore the "cultural significance of the circus poster"
$725,000 to produce a two-hour documentary on the history of American whaling.
$130,000 for 16 professors to study the "truth and meaning" of life according to Aristotle
$50,000 to build a computer model of an ancient city in Pakistan complete with "animated and interactive 'inhabitants'"
"Everybody should be angry ... that federal taxpayer dollars are being used on projects at a time when we have such bigger priorities, like getting the national debt under control," said Pete Sepp of the National Taxpayers Union.
"They're being done with tax money we don't have. We are mortgaging our future with projects people may never even see." "
"$130,000 for 16 professors to study the "truth and meaning" of life according to Aristotle"......This particular item caught my eye and I wondered if Rob and Bronco were involved in this particular study. ;-)
Pete
Benznd...thanks...they're doing fine although we're all getting a touch of cabin fever....and yes I see the big r... :-)
benznd
Pete, hope the kids are doing better. There is no Rush................. (-:
Pete
"Obama Loses Bid to Control Press Treasury Department loses bid to exclude FOX News from networks' interviews of 'pay czar' Kenneth Feinberg"....Rather Nixonian don't you think?
rtr
Rob, I have checked every where I know of on the net and I can’t find the “Bowdish farm Indian” however if you were all that interested it would have been in 1969 or 19770 during the spring time when he plowed it up.
My only concern is that it may have been state leased land that he was farming therefore it my not show up as Bowdish.
It is the road to the right at the bottom of the hill before you get to the dump going towards Whitefish and about 3 miles back into what use to be farm land if you cared.
Just thought I would share it with you.
rtr
Rob, Are you aware of the skeleton that was found in the early 1970's at the Bowdish farm across the Highway from the dump going towards Whitefish.
Reason I ask is that the skeleton was 7 feet tall and at that time there was no carbon testing or anything else like today.
Indians rarely grew to be 7 feet tall and the jewelry he had berried with him was nothing like any of the Indians that lived around the Flathead Valley ever had and the arrow heads did not match any local Indians either and were unidentifiable with any tribe.
John Bowdish caught the skull on a plow shear is how he found it, It was a gopher hunting field and I seen it while they were finishing the dig up of the skeleton.
I do not know if there is any information about it on the net or not, "I haven't looked".
Rob123
Jack.....I've been following it since 96 or so (whenever it broke out into the media), with the most interesting aspect being the Euro-Asian shape of the skull. Not Native American.....puzzling......no cavities (thus not a Corn Based-Sugar diet), with lots of wear and tear from grinding.....couple broken but healed bones.......and an arrow head in his hip bone still protuding out from the bone when found, but not the apparent cause of death......If it cools down and the Ocean Levels drop thirty feet +, I think we'll find all types of interesting stuff from Asia to California to South America.......Although the 6'+ skeletons on the tip of South America at 10,000+ years are also a big "Hum?" How did they get there? And again, more Euro-Asian than Native American.
rtr
Jack
Just a quick note on protocol,
no matter how simple the lookup is, if it's that simple, furnishing the source should be no problem.
================
You under estimate his reasoning for asking for the source, Maybe you should have stated if someone gives you a source don't belittle them every time “For that source information” or they will finally just tell you to look it up for yourself which is what I did when it came to Plantman.
His complement to Pete was just to belittle me is all.
Note: Pete stated he found it in 10 seconds.
JackPoynter
Just a quick note on protocol,
If one makes a statement, one should either cite a source or be prepared to do so, or simply state that it's a personal opinion. That gives the reader some sort of confidence in what's being stated. The onus is on the one making the statement, no matter how simple the lookup is, if it's that simple, furnishing the source should be no problem.
In the spirit of what I just said, that statement is an inference from the last fifty years of my engaging in debate both in college, face-to-face, in letters, and on the web for the last ten years. It is the most efficient, most productive, least intrusive way to go about this sort of conversation. And it keeps you from making silly mistakes like my migrating Indian comment to rtr.
rtr
Rob, That is same one I posted about, It is almost funny to the point of stupidity when it comes to the groups argueing over who the bones should belong to.
Not sure if you just found it after my post or not but it has been an on going thing now for several years and the University final said to heck with you all were keeping it....
There very well could be several more since the bones were exposed do to the river washing out a muddy area that could very well contain more bones in cased with in it.
I believe there is an issue with digging in that area to find more however, Can't remember the details.
JackPoynter
Googling <"kennewick man"> gets 77,900 hits.
Luckily, I am already a little familiar with it, mostly because I try to keep an eye on archaelogy / anthropology / paleontology, those subjects have fascinated me since I was a child.
But there's been a lot of work done on it since the last time I looked. Thanks for the heads up.
Plantman
Pete....tho I would have liked rtr to have risen to your level I still appreciate the link. I'll read it now, and many thanks.
Rob123
Jack......Google Kennewick Man......a 9,500 year old Caucasoid that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals saved from reburyial. His bones and skull are at the U of Washington, still being studied. Very Interesting, and at the center of some Historical Re-Writes.....I have a feeking your familiar with it......
Pete
Plantman...took me 10 seconds...
Weather Channel Founder, 30,000 Scientists Suing Gore for Global Warming Fraud
John Coleman, founder of the Weather Channel will be joining 30,000 scientists to sue Al Gore to debunk global warming fraud. He said global warming supporters are not open to scientific, objective discussion but have been silencing their oposition to cover their faulty science. Coleman hopes that the lawsuit will bring the truth of the matter to the public eye and force media and government outlets to give a more balanced report on the claims.
rtr
faithful reader
My point was I have read some of the articles at the Beacon and the following posts which get almost as heated as they do here.
Mooseberryinn has posted under the same addy there as he /she has here.
The only benifit there is that you don't have the likes of Bronco and comapny STARTING the insults.
Note: Even the editor has stated he couldn't believe how politicaly correct this comment section has become and with intimidation and such to drive off the opposition which he was refering to had happened prior to me coming on board if you were going to go there..
rtr
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1222510/Poll-U-S-belief-global-warming-cooling-down.html
Half of Americans do not believe in global warming, new poll reveals
By David Derbyshire
Last updated at 4:31 PM on 23rd October 2009
"The drop has occurred as Congress and the Obama administration take steps to control greenhouse gases.
The number of Americans who believe in global warming has plummeted over the last few years, according to a new poll.
Just 57 per cent think world temperatures are rising - a drop of 20 points compared to three years ago - while only one in three believes humans are causing climate change."
This is fresh off the press 4 hours ago.
faithful reader
I understand it was a copy and paste, rtr. I just don't know what you mean about being slapped around. I rarely post and when I do, I find people to be civil in their replies.
Plantman
rtr: 'Gee there was no insult in your post now was there and I made a simple statement "which was true"'...
To the first part, I try to post without using insults. Again, point out where I've used insults and I'll admit to them and even apologize for them....so long as you do the same for the insults you've slung.
As to the second part, you didn't make a simple statement "which was true." You made an insinuation: that is, that since I couldn't find the information that you *claim* is true I must be less capable than a child.
When one considers the amount of raw data that a Google search brings up, it would take hours of reading and I might not even find the info I'm looking for. *You*, on the other hand, know what to look for, so the keyword *you'd* use in such a search would probably net better results; plus, *you'd* be able to scan the initial search to find the pertinent information faster.
Due to the fact that you already knowing what to look for in such a search, the two conclusions that I figure I can draw from are 1) you *could* find the info, but are more interested in making insults and insinuations than you are in making a valid point, or 2) that the answer to my question "Did Al Gore say that these various scientists supported his claims? Are they suing him?" is that "no, nobody's suing him, and no, Gore didn't use their names erroneously." You still have the chance to answer the question that your statement ("If what I am say is not ture then point out to me why the real scientists that Al Gore was using their names are sueing him") raised, and I'd love to be privy the the info that you have seen for it. C'mon, dude, don't just take the easy way out; stay in the game, play by the rules of good-sportsmanship, and treat others like you'd like to be treated.
rtr
Jack I liked your (+) of 10,000 years ago.
Here is how unreal that gets, They found the bones of someone on the Columbia River by the Tri-Cities a few years back that carbon dated back 5,000 years and the Indians that live close by claimed it.
Then the Pegans from seattle got in the middle of it and claimed it as being one of their's because they said it dated back farther than the Indians.
When it comes to that long ago NO ONE knows and it just becomes a joke.
rtr
Hey Jack,
I have to admit I had you at a slight disadvantage when it came to the Indians..I didn't mean it to sound rude.
When you grow up with three fairly large reservations surrounding you and half your friends are Indian and unlike some other states Montana made you learn Montana history “Required learning” like it was the back of your hand.
Indians, Every county and county set memorized, state hood and more things than I can even remember but when all was said and done it encompassed most of the western United States do to their ties to Montana and its development that were associated to other states and territories including the migration of Indians from the east coast area..
Also it was one of my favorite subjects..
rtr
Gee faithdul reader, Did you notice it was a cut and paste from a previous post of YOUR 'S..
You might want to look back through what you have posted and you will find it.
rtr
Plantman
======================
Gee there was no insult in your post now was there and I made a simple statement "which was true" you try to impress people here with your intellegence and then turn around and ask for information a child could google just to be insulting.
Oh well such is life for people like you.
Plantman
rtr, you wrote:
"Plantman
rtr: " If what I am say is not ture then point out to me why the real scientists that Al Gore was using their names are sueing him...?"
=====================
You claim you are so smart and yet you don;t know how to use a simple google search?"
First, you don't actually answer anything, you just insult. Second, I *did* do a Google search, and found a lot of sites, more than I'll ever get a chance to read through. I read through the ones that looked most pertinent, and will continue to read through more, as I want to be informed on this topic.
However, *your* response--that is, an insult and an implied suggestion to do the research w/o any help from you--leads me to infer, that you actually don't have any proof of what YOU are suggesting...that is, that there is legal action under, by thousands of scientists who's names were fraudulently used, way to bring a suit against Al Gore for suggesting that they believed or supported the position he was trying to make. Or are you suggesting something else?
If you are in this for the purpose of trying to educate and change peoples' minds about global warming, I would expect you to be more than happy to either quote a source, or direct a person to that source. On the other hand, if you are actually just in this to be argumentative, divisive, insulting, and the fear-monger that you have accused others of being.....well, how would you expect someone like that to react?
The question still stands. I'd love to see a response from you that was as respectful of my opinions as you'd want someone to be of yours, but I'll settle for a response that answers my question, even if it is given in a surly manner.
faithful reader
faithful reader
I find the Flathead Beacon to be a much more intelligent forum.
======================
I have read the Flathead Beacon posts but never posted there and I sure find your coment humorous seeing as how I have seen Mooseberry slap you around at the Beacon too.
There's just no home for you is there.
======================
I have no idea what you're talking about or even what a Mooseberry is.
JackPoynter
rtr said: Navaho’s built their homes in rock wall a thousand years ago above the plains floor so the Apache could not get to them which went on for over 500 years that we know of.
Wasn't that the Anasazi that did that? Are they a subtribe of the Navaho?
Well, I am sort of embarrassed about the Indian migration thing. I knew I remembered some of the defeated tribes went west, but I also knew that the rest of the Americas were pretty much populated by 10,000+ years ago. (The '+' means nobody's really sure yet.) Just the other day I was reading about a new site that had been discovered down south of Mexico which pushed back the Bering Land Bridge migration by a couple of thousand years.
We tend to develop a sort of tunnel vision when we're debating a specific event; it was late, I was in a hurry, and the dog ate my homework.
rtr
Jack
I said there were a few that came from the eat but NOT very many, Cherokee split on the east coast and some of the came as far west as the Sioux nation and for what ever reason were accepted by them, I asume because they had beautiful women.
I could go on as to why they were a fierce lot as compared to the east coast Indians also if you like which I can point out with the tamer west coast Indians and the reason why...
You do see where I am going with this I hope so.
JackPoynter
Well, I'm wrong and I'm right about the Plains Indians. The Apache seem to have emigrated from northwest Canda about 850 AD along with the Navajo (two different tribes, but same time.) The Comanche, OTOH, were eastern Woodlands until the 1700's, when they went west and displaced already existing tribes there.
See http://www.comancheindian.com/
rtr
Jack, The evidence is on my side I hate to tell you when it comes to Indians, I have never claimed or bragged about being highly book read but I do know and have learned about Indians.
Just a few examples, Which I can get the proof of if you need it.
Navaho’s built their homes in rock wall a thousand years ago above the plains floor so the Apache could not get to them which went on for over 500 years that we know of.
The Sioux and Crow were bitter enemies of 100’s of years on the plains before man ever came to the new world “Indian paintings to prove it in Billing’s Mt, North and South Dakota.
Blackfeet hated everyone and fought some of the fiercest battles but never had the man power to expand. "They existed on the plains from the time the Crow did"
I could go on for way more than we have room here and will if need be to prove my point because NO ONE is going to fool me when it comes to Indians.
Not to mention the Indian girl friends I have had, Lived with one and my best friend is an Indian too.
Sensationalizing is fine but when it is over done it takes a good story to the world of fiction.
rtr
rtr: You wrote: "I am kind of shaking my head here, Books will never change history repeating itself no matter what you might think." Egads, another future "Burn all the Books!" episode. Will we ever learn? The American anti-intellectual is alive and well? Bronco
I never once said burn the books but the way you recite them is like looking at a child that the parent used the TV as a baby sitter for and has no life experiences, It is sad.
Note how you go on the attack about John Wayne on TV and yet listen to yourself when it comes to your addiction to books, And no I didn’t get my information from TV either, You see Rob to much of anything blinds you and makes a fool of you if you try to constantly quote it..
If Jack would like me to point out more about plains Indians and the fact that they did not come from the east coast or woodlands I will be more than happy to explain that but you Rob are not worth my time when it comes to that.
Note Bronco bragging about and IQ of 142, Let see Einstein had a high IQ also and he had similar problems as Bronco, Not quite all there.
Pete
A pie in the face to all of you in memory of Soupy.
Pete
Plantman...good post and I stand corrected on the last point. I will quickly make the argument that in my mind there is a world of difference between compulsory charity at the hands of the government and private charity. Interestingly, studies show that those on the right or libertarian end of the spectrum give substantially more to charity than those on the other side of the political spectrum...and it has nothing to do with income levels...if that is going to be the next argument. Institutionalized Socialism is much more about power than charity...just as most institutions inevitably become more about protecting themselves and their power base than their original mission...see Unions, AARP, Churches, etc...and I'm sure you can think or more. The difference with private, is that we can STOP giving when we see problems developing and in doing so we can motivate change or we can by-pass institutions all together and simply give directly where we see a need. Of course even these non-governmental institutions can get around that...see Unions again, and compulsary membership...but again that is with the help of their enablers in the government. Anyhow...I have to get back to my brood. Cheers.
JackPoynter
BTW, Soupy Sales died last night at the age of 83. Another piece of my childhood has fallen out of the sleigh.
"Wait," he said, "some's at the door...."
JackPoynter
rtr: Saying that the Indian wars went on for over 100 years is not the same thing as saying one war went on for over 100 years. Regarding migration, I'll try to scare up some evidence for you.
rob: Agent orange may or may not have triggered type 2 diabetes, and pregnancy triggered my wife's diabetes, but the genetic modification to be triggered was (according to Meloam) ingrained during the younger-dryas. Potential vs actual, do you see. And yes, the younger-dryas lasted for a couple of thousand years only, but evolution can happen much more quickly than that, if the change is not too complex. Even vision seems to have evolved five separate times, see the book "In the Blink of an Eye" about the causes of the Cambrian Explosion. The authors see it taking no more that 50,000 years each time.
nature vs. nurture: Steven Pinker, my favorite author on the subject, believes we have various biological programs hardwired in our brains, ready to be used by nurture, so that we get the best of both worlds. In my own experience, children are born with a personality, each one different. How that personality is expressed is due to nurture. The ability to speak a language appears to be hardwired, but it needs to be 'loaded' by hearing language spoken, or, by seeing someone using sign language. In most people, the circuitry to learn a language appears to be resorbed by the brain in late adolescence, if the opportunity is missed, no language can be learned. In some people the circuitry appears to be not resorbed, and those are the people who continue learning languages easily all their lives. The rest of us, if we already have one language, can learn another late in life, but the process can be extremely difficult.
Pete
Benznd...taking care of sick kids right now so I don't have much time on my hands. I wrote my thoughts about the desire of the Democrat/left to blur the line between the government and their party a few weeks ago....I will refer you to that for now, although I'm not sure it survived the web site update?
Rob123
benznd.....Nurture vs. Nature......tabula rasa....ah Yes.....My own experience, validated by Locke's fine reading of 500 year old Islamic Philosophy amd it's reintroduction of Aristotle's notion of the Blank Slate influenced by (and grown with) Experience gained by the 5 senses, vs. Plato's Phaedo and Apology and the notion of Knowledge as an act of remembering that which always exists independent of our senses yet only knowable through our senses, took a confusing turn a few years ago when I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, yet no family history. And Jack, a few posts back you did a little on type 2 and the genetic link to a previous short lived (2000 yr) Cold Snap and our gene modification to survive (ye old recessive gene?).....but in my studies after diagnosis, the Environmental Triggers stood out (swimming in a sea of Dioxin off the coast of Vietnam.....and the surprising spike of type 2 diabetes in Vietnam Vets who spent time in and around bays and estuaries filled with Agent Orange run off). But further reading of studies points out a high spike in type 2, in middle age, of children whose Mothers didn't gain a typical amount of weight during their pregnacy and put the fetus through gestational 'low glucose' levels (My mother gained 60 lbs with my older sister, and had a heck of a time losing it, and didn't want to go through that again; and old pictures of my mom and sister while pregnant with me show a very slim, yet pregnant, mom).......hum?......And more recently, middle aged type 2 spikes in people who suffered from a good concussion (again, a B-40 Rocket hitting the truck in front of my Gun Truck by the Cambodian Border in early 1970, putting my head through the windshield when we slammed into the rear of the blown up truck, and putting me out briefly, and in a state of dreamy la-la land for a few hours)......such studies make the Nature vs. nurture arguement, like 'Global Warming' and so much else, gray, murkey, and worthy of more investigation. Lets all keep thinking.
Rob123
rtr: You wrote: "I am kind of shaking my head here, Books will never change history repeating itself no matter what you might think." Egads, another future "Burn all the Books!" episode. Will we ever learn? The American anti-intellectual is alive and well? Bronco...I agree with you concerning involvement of rtr, and have tried to ignore his uneducated 'cut and paste' ideological attacks on reason, yet keep getting sucked in in a vain attempt to point out a few obvious 'facts' or 'what ifs'. He is the epitome of the American raised by Wild West Hollywood movies, when it comes to Native Peoples vs. European Settlers (does he even know of the 'NorthWest' Indian Wars that took place in upper New York State, the 'Old West' for 100+ years? John Wayne didn't go there, because the scenery in Arizonia was more spectacular for Directors).....I will try to just ignore him for awhile, as I wrestle with the notion of the 'Book Burner' and how to 'enlighten' him, or at least marginalize him. He is the White Man's little "Acorn, Inc.", and worthy of investigation? Maybe we need to raise our national consciousness level so that one can't retire early unless one has a healthy hobby/ desire to be more human/etc., to occupy ones time? Please don't go away, Bronco. The void would be immense. Plus, Sarah, as you probably know, is too much for any one man, despite our egoistic illusions to the contrary.
rtr
Jack
I will say again, the plains Indians your people fought had been in prior times east coast woodland Indians, who had already been defeated once by the time your people faced them.
=====================
This is not a true statement in any way shape or form.
There were a small number of tribes that crossed the Mississippi river but the plains Indians were here as long as recorded time.
As for your assertion that you had a 100 year Indian war that is a little over the top.
What you had was several European countries vying for that land and the Indians sided with whom ever they thought they had the best chance with at the time "That does not constitute a 100 year Indian war.
As for our Indians they were indeed fighting for their own land and with out any European influence since the USA was the only one capable of taking it and didn’t have the desire to be whipped along with the Indians.
You need to do some extensive research on this if you truly are interested in Indians.
The fact that Mark Twain wrote a book does not mean it is true you know.
Just ask Rob and his liberal cronies here and he will be the first to tell you the bible is a nice book but nothing to believe it.
rtr
Bronco, The woman you refer to was only looking for hand outs from the govenment which is an insult to me in itself.
You being a socoalist you didn't want that pointed out is all.
rtr
Plantman
rtr: " If what I am say is not ture then point out to me why the real scientists that Al Gore was using their names are sueing him...?"
=====================
You claim you are so smart and yet you don;t know how to use a simple google search?
JackPoynter
Our society here in this country embodies elements of many different theories of government. That's a fact, I think.
Except for a blip in 1861, it has, pretty much, continued to roll right along in spite of ourselves.
We are a dynamic society, with (Professor Fischer would say,) four poles of thought. First one philosophy gains ascendancy, and then another, and then yet another. And yet we in the middle continue to truck right along in the balance between the extremes. The problems start when one pole gets too much of a pull; it pulls everything off balance for a while, until the problems raised by that ascendancy results in it losing a little of the pull.
Take, for instance, the Presidency of Mr. Obama. It comes at a time when the Democrats have control of both houses of Congress, and it would seem that his agenda would have no problem sailing right through, but here it is the end of October and he has accomplished very little; so little in fact, that he is drawing the fire of the bell-wethers of democracy, the comedians. Like the clowns of Old Rome, their job is to satirize the leader, to point up his errors, and to let him know that we are watching. They whisper in his ear, "Remember that thou art only human."
So why is he stuck? He is finding that the presidency of the country can not be divorced from the needs of the country, and he is now subject to the same pressures as are they all. Close Guantanamo? We would survive that, but where is he to put them? Get out of Iraq? OK, but that would leave Iraq in chaos, and all those around him are telling him so. Send more troops to Afghanistan? Part of his own party says yes, another part says no, the generals want more troops, his constituency wants peace. Solve the financial situation? He makes a move and the mob howls louder, no matter what the move is. Same with health care.
He is finding that he can't please everybody, he has to lead, and that exposes him, at last, to scrutiny of his inmost goals. Which scrutiny he does not desire, he wants to be the historical president, the answer to all dreams, which he cannot be, because all dreams are not the same. So he will make a move, in some direction, and part of his base will begin to disappear, and in order to remain effective he will move further to the center, and balance will begin to be restored.
He said hopefully.
Plantman
rtr: " If what I am say is not ture then point out to me why the real scientists that Al Gore was using their names are sueing him...?"
Did Al Gore say that these various scientists supported his claims? Are they suing him? I see the site of the petition against global warming, but I don't see any info on them filing a suit against him. It looks more like these people don't believe it's true, so they're saying so, and saying why. All very logical (I'm still reading through it) and civil (which is more than I can say for some of the interactions here). And then there are the scientists who support his claims (also which I am still reading through....an informed opinion takes a lot of work, doesn't it?).
Plantman
Pete: "Show me the masses trying to immigrate to that society."
Well, I'd love to show you one, but I don't know of one. The early Christians were that kind of society (Acts, Ch 2), but I don't know of any sizable society that practices it today.
Still, OUR society isn't a totally Capitalistic one, either. You can, of course blame this on all the various socialist-leaning types that have come to or come from this country (clear back to its beginnings). The Plymouth Colony was socialist, for a time; the Shakers are such. And what good Christian doesn't think of helping the needy at least once in a while, even if it's only to put money in the plate for OTHERS to invest in social assistance? THAT'S why I say that there's nothing wrong with communism. Not that I want this to be a communist country, just that I don't immediately demonize it, even if it hasn't worked out in the "real world."
"..and yet you expect those who disagree with you to simply ignore logic and rules of evidence...", etc.: I never said anyone should do such a thing. I think it's important that the electorate should be educated and informed, which means listening to both sides of the debate, doing the research (on both sides), and deciding for themselves. I think that anyone who lets someone else think for them deserves the chains that they get. But it's not only "the loving arms of the government" (lead by the Left or Right) that can put those chains on us if we let them. Big Business, Labor, Religion...these all have a history of trying to convince us to trust them implicitly, and we've seen what can happen when we do and then not pay attention to what they're doing.
However, I'm confused, Pete.... "Your other argument about Global Warming is equally devoid of compelling evidence": Which argument is that? The posting you commented on (to which I'm responding) was my first posting on this subject? Or did you just throw that in because you figured that I HAD put such an argument forward and therefore it MUST be "devoid of...evidence?"
All in all, just more evidence of a lack of civility in public discourse.
JackPoynter
So, Ben, you are a devotee of the tabula rasa theory of human development
Bronco
I hereby ask every decent poster here to just ignore this barbarian, nothing has been gained in our attempts at understanding each other since he first slithered into the room. I would think most of you have more self respect than to participate in any discussion with someone so inappropriate, so deluded, and so unfit for civil company. If it does continue, I will look for another room to discuss issues and concerns, and hopefully I will find the caliber of people qualified for important dialog I had thought posted here. Rob, we'll always have Sarah.
Bronco
Thank you, rtr. You nailed me. I am slightly slow but I can't compete with you; my IQ is a low 142. Disturbed? I agree, especially after reading your posts. Self-centered? Who isn't? No pride in myself? Well, I should be ashamed but I keep trying to be a :( like yourself so there is hope. A beggar? I beg to differ; does that count? Sheep-like tendencies? Baaa. A b*zo? I don't understand that word. A problem walking past fire hydrants?...??? And my wife? Well, you insulted a widow a few weeks ago only because her husband died of cancer when he was young and now you insult my wife. The woman is beyond reproach and you wouldn't even register on the human scale in her eyes. As far as my kids are concerned, I didn't ask for your opinion. Basically I just wanted the folks here to see what a low class animal you have turned out to be. I won't be reading your posts anymore; there's enough disgust in this world without adding more to it. You have tainted this room and many have left it because of you.
JackPoynter
The new avatar picture is in honor of RTR's viking ancestors. It's an illustration of same from Peter Freuchen's "Book of the Seven Seas."
Lest you think I'm making fun of you, rtr, my wife's greatly grand-father was "White" David Campbell of Tennessee (they called him that to differentiate him from his cousin "Black" David Campbell, one had blonde hair, the other black.) That line goes back to the Dukes of Argyll, who are related to the Stewart / Stuart / Steward family who were related to Billy the Conker. And his greatly grandfather was a cat named "Eystein the Noisy, Earl of the Upland." That probably actually translates as 'Roarer,' and the Eystein part means something like 'ice stone.' But I like Eystein the noisy, 'cause it certainly fit my kids. I knew the relation was true as soon as I saw the 'noisy' part.
Probably a good 30% of the American population is also descended in that line, so it's no great distinction.
As this lady genealogist member of the FFV once said to me, "Of course at this late date, probably everyone is related to everyone else."
JackPoynter
Ice fish? you can fish for ice? Who woulda thunk it.
No, I wouldn't tell anybody how to ice fish. Heck, I don't even want to THINK about it.
You guys know how to catch a polar bear?
Plantman
rtr: "after all the insults you were throughing around yourself last week"
And which insults were these? I remember using a lot of logic, outlining a lot of my opinions, and trying to get YOU to stop using insults and illogical statements, but I don't remember any insults. Maybe you could refresh my memory. But before you do that, perhaps you should re-read YOUR posts and look for the insults there, then decide whether you want to compare your number with mine.
benznd
Pete? Pete? Please tell us? rtr, buddy of mine, do not show up mit butter knife at bazooka party. You cannot match wits with these individuals. Can't be done. Just as these individuals could not talk about whatever you did for the past umteen years. We all have insight and much broader depth of understanding related to our real life experiences or areas of study. I know you want to make sure the communists do not monopolize this blog. Yet, some discussions are better left alone as they are specific to areas of interest to certain people. No put down intended. Applies to us all. Jack would not tell you how to ice fish.
benznd
Jack and Rob, stating that nurture is more critical than nature is not really accurate. The development of the fetus is CRITICAL to the final product. Nurture is critical, yes, but it is the proper method of frying the meal. Many, many children are victims of fetal malnutrition and regardless of the nurture, come into this world disadvantaged and impoverished. I know you both are aware of this. Your assumption is that the new born is well equipped and ready for the process of "living." Chicks come into this world, genetically prepared to fly, eat, reproduce, and perhaps migrate. The parents are there to orient, teach, and protect. So, just thought I would put my "2 cents" into this discussion. A man is standing beside a duck. He looks down at the duck and says, "Hablo Espanol?" ----------- "Sprechen sie Deutsch?"----------------- "Parlez vous Français?"------------------ "Speak English?"-----------------"Quack?"-- "Quack!".
Nature. (-:
JackPoynter
RTR, what you have seen in your own lifetime is totally irrelevant to what happened in prior centuries, no matter how many reservations you have visited. In the times of which I speak, east coast Indians were not tame, and the plains Indians your people fought later were there because they had already been kicked out of the east coast, when they were much stronger.
I am sure that your people had a difficult time, but they had access to technology and weapons much more advanced than that of colonial America.
I will say again, the plains Indians your people fought had been in prior times east coast woodland Indians, who had already been defeated once by the time your people faced them.
Your Indian wars lasted at most a few decades; the wars in the east lasted over a hundred years, and were aided and abetted by the French, the Spanish, and the British.
As to who had it worse, who cares? Times were tough in both places. During the first 100 years of colonization in Virginia, up to to 80% of all new colonists died each year; it was called "the seasoning." In 1700, the death rate was still at 50%. Disease played a large part, but Indian attacks played a role also. In the northeast, mortality rates were about half that of Virginia, due to a cooler climate.
As to western participation in the WBTS, of course Texas participated. As far as the rest of you goes, it wasn't your fight. Most of your families were still in Europe when the War took place, and Utah was blockaded by Federal troops due to Union fears that they would start a new country while the rest of us were settling things. Which they might have done, if things had gone a little differently, according to my understanding. Montana was still pretty empty at the time, as was Utah.
Small pox or not, the west would still have been won, maybe not as easily, but it would have happened.
rtr
Jack
RTR, most everything that has happened in the world occurred "way before my time." That's why people record history, so we don't have to keep relearning it over and over
=============================
I am kind of shaking my head here, Books will never change history repeating itself no matter what you might think.
As for the Indians, I think I am a little closer to that than you and lived it first hand with three MAJOR reservations around the Flathead Valley and I have seen East Coast Indians…. “Major difference”
The Plains Indians were fierce warriors as compared to the worst of the worst you had on the east and south east coast.
Yes you had Indians and "Some wars" "Mostly tame Indians after they seen they couldn't win" but nothing like the plains Indians.
If it wasn’t for small pox the west may not have been won. “True story”
It is not a matter of competition it is just a fact that it made people that entered this part of the country harder than the people on the east coast south of the Mason Dixon line. Freezing to death, Just plain getting lost, Starvation “Half your growing season and competition with Indians for game” you name it was a day in and day out struggle for people that lived here unlike the south..
As far as Montana, ND, SD Wyo, Utah was concerned with the civil war and you will not see much participation in the civil war. We had enough problems without that”
We were a country of our own and didn't care what you did, unfortunately that was the case with hind sight since we were way more like minded with the south than the rest of the slimy North than wanted taxation without representation and socialism just like today.
Look at little Robbies post with being a spoiled child, He in no way represents Montana or any bordering states.
JackPoynter
rtr, in no way do I want to get into a peeing contest with you about who had most battles with the Indians. btw, do you know why they were called 'Indians'? At the time Columbus discovered America and the Spanish were involved in Latin America India was called Hindustan, not India. So where do you think the name came from?
OTOH, books good, oral tradition suspect. What your granddaddy told you goes back to maybe 1880, maybe less. The east coast interaction with Indians goes back several hundred years, there were almost 180 years between the founding of Jamestown and the Declaration of Independence. Most of which is covered in high school like, "Columbus discovered America, the pilgrims came, and then we had the Revolution." The main reason being that the Puritans wrote the school books, and for the most part, all they were interested in was their history and nobody else's. The rest of us abdicated our responsibility in that regard, and now we (and you) are paying the price.
There were many Indian tribes in North America when the Europeans arrived, some of them much more sophisticated than the others, and some of them much more warlike than the others. The attitudes ranged from "what me worry" all the way to "all white men must die" to "these white guys would make good allies to help wipe out our neighbors, who are our enemies."
Some Indian tribes were indeed decimated by disease, that happens when two long separated populations come into contact, with no ill will on either part. Some were not. Some Indian tribe in the northeast contributed syphilis to our disease mix. Powhatan's tribe in Virginia was just fine disease-wise and he gave the settlers fits. The Creeks and Cherokees in Georgia were not majorly affected by disease. They immediately began to form alliances with the white folks, until they discovered that the white men wanted it all. Then their attitude became mixed, at best.
During the Revolution, that attitude was exploited by the British. The British gave the tribes to know that if the British won, they would respect the existing treaty boundaries and prevent white settlement beyond the Ocmulgee. In consequence, the Indians fought in the only way they knew how, by slaughtering and burning. This continued from 1776 to, oh, say, 1780 or so.
Unfortunately for the Indians, the British lost, and went home, leaving the Indians holding the bag. The Cherokees and Creeks looked for an honorable treaty with the whites, but they, having seen their families killed and their homes burned, and not incidentally wanting to expand beyond the Ocmulgee, were not buying it. The tribes tried to deal with the Federals, but the Federal government wasn't buying it either, they knew what had gone on. When Andy Jackson sent the Cherokee on the trail of tears, he was simply ending a very long and protracted struggle in which both sides had lost much.
RTR, most everything that has happened in the world occurred "way before my time." That's why people record history, so we don't have to keep relearning it over and over. Of course, many people write history according to their own viewpoint. That's why it's important to read many different histories, and try to figure out where the truth is. "Smallpox took them off" is a half-truth at best, more like a quarter-truth. Indians fought for what was theirs, and lost, or went west to avoid the fight, and lost anyway later. Your ancestors, the Vikings, were the invaders in the ancient world, and won in most cases. At least, the only ones we hear about were the ones who won. The people they displaced were worthy of respect also, but they lost. End of story.
rtr
Sorry Rob it did not come from the "National Review ".
I already figured out you were a spoiled child,,,That is not rocket science.
You still sound like a spoiled child with your beliefs of HATING America.
rtr
Jack, You have to realize when you speak of Indian wars that was way before your time and or any ones time other than what you read in books. “Smallpox took most of them out”.
We probably had a lot more Indian wars however than was ever fought in the south since a lot of those Indians moved west. “I could give examples but not enough room”
Lot's of Indian battle fields in Montana and surrounding states just like you have Civil war battle fields and other wars..
When it came to Montana we have always had a disproportionate amount of men drafted for WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet-Nam "Viet Nam" changed to the lottery system “Yout birthday” half way through.
The deal was the kids that draft boards thought had the least chance of success in life were drafted first or family vendettas were take out on kids with the draft boards "Hatfield’s and McCaw’s"..
Your old south is not a good comparison to what we did here in Montana and life was in itself a lot harder because of the climate.
This is in NO WAY belittling the south but we had different hurtles to get across in order to survive. “I trapped, hunted, fished, gardened and my folk’s worked just like my Grandparents and there’s and there’s before them.
rtr
Jack, You need to differentiate the Mason Dixon line to the old south as compared to the "For lack of better words" more progressive south to the west. "They are not the same".
We had lots of hippies and I knew of two large rainbow groups "Lived in teepee's" "One in the North Fork and one by Echo Lake".
Note: That was before the scumbag "Rev Jackson" took the name and claimed ownership of the rights to it.
They bothered no one and took care of their own, Unlike the liberal trash posting here that want socialism they wanted NOTHING to do with that and would have been considered very conservative as compare to these clowns.
In reality they were not much different than the Hoot's we have in eastern Montana.
Rob123
rtr: National Review might get angry at you for not using quotation marks and maybe a footnote or at least an acknowledgement. It (plagerism) is a silly, nasty little thing that usually one learns all about in Jr.High. Simple things make it obvious, like a terrible speller all of a sudden is 100% correct. Weird. Oh, and your question "Rob, Let me ask you, Are you the same now as when you were of daft age."...ah, gee, do you want to shrink me first, or Bronco? But remember, we are not Ponds. We can move 2, 3, 4 squares at a time, sometimes slide all the way accross the board. Try to grasp it, little pond. Oh, I was never really of 'Draft Age'. I was in a Private University with Sport Car and Skis and Tennis Racket and Golf Clubs and Bank Account, and at the completion of my Freshman Year I drove down and enlisted and volunteered for Vietnam inorder to see who the Heck was lieing (May, 1967). I found out, by experience. You, rtr, were sleeping in Junior High English Class around that time.
JackPoynter
Rob, I can't find what you're talking about through Google, and I'm usually pretty good at that. The information in your post should have been sufficient. Terms <"mcgill university" "adrenal gland" "autopsy studies"> gives about 30 hits but nothing exciting. Got the name of somebody who was fired?
rtr
The Enviro-wackos, Al Gore, Suzuki and especially the World Wildlife Fund who are raising hundredsof millions to "Save the Polar Bear" will never let the facts get in the way of a good con job!
Excerpt from one of about 100 sources I found debunking the GW polar bear scare:
Indeed, since the 1970s -- all while the world was "warming" - polar bear numbers increased dramatically from around 5,000 to as many as 25,000 today (higher than at anytime in the 20th century).
And historically, polar bears have thrived in temperatures even warmer than at present -- during the medieval warm period 1000 years ago and during the Holocene Climate Optimum between 5,000 and 9,000 years ago.
Polar bears have thrived during warmer climates because they are omnivores just like their cousin's the Brown and Black bears.
Though Polar Bears eat seals more than any other food source at present, research shows that they have a varied diet when other foods are available including, fish, kelp, caribou, ducks, sea birds, the occasional beluga whale and musk ox and scavenged whale and walrus carcasses.
In addition, Dr. Mitchell Taylor, a biologist with Nunavut Territorial government in Canada, pointed out in testimony to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, that modest warming may be beneficial to bears since it creates better habitat for seals and would dramatically increase blueberry production which bears gorge themselves on when available.
Alaska's polar bear population is stable, and Taylor's research shows that the Canadian polar bear population has increased 25 percent from 12,000 to 15,000 during the past decade with 11 of Canada's 13 polar bear populations stable or increasing in number.
Where polar bear weight and numbers are declining, Taylor thinks too many bears competing for food, rather than arctic warming, is the cause.
That's right, the problem confronting polar bears may be overpopulation not extinction!
JackPoynter
I have always thought that the Baby Boom caused a sort of national adolescent temper tantrum during the 1960's and 1970's, as that huge swell of people caused the population balance to shift. Now that they're aging, the country is becoming very conservative. I don't include myself as a boomer, because the official beginning is 1 Jan 1945, and I was born a few months before that, an artificial distinction if ever there was one.
But then, I wonder why that didn't happen in the South. We had a little bitty hippie colony up Trade Street from Georgia Tech in Atlanta, but they never really had an effect beyond giving folks something to gawk at.
My best guess is that it's because we are basically a very conservative (in the old sense) society. Our parents back beyond the Revolution went to war with somebody just about as soon as they could carry a weapon. Indians, Spanish in Florida, British, Yankees, we've fought 'em all. I know of several cases where kids joined up to fight as young as 12 years old, during the WBTS. Most of them were discharged during the training period, but at least one fought all through the War.
In the absence of legal age limits on owning land, marrying, or fighting, in the nineteenth century if a person looked to be capable of performing, he or she was allowed the attempt.
I don't know what the situation was in the North, somebody will have to fill me in.
rtr
.As far as you personally, I think your posts are enough evidence as to what is wrong with you, Slightly slow, Slightly disturbed, Self centered, Lazy, No pride in yourself, Sheep like tendencies, A beggar, A b*zo, A problem walking past fire hydrants.
As for your wife, She has to many patients putting up with you, Over worked do to you, Stressed out do to you, Seeing the guy next door do to you "Understandability so".
As for your kids let’s just hope they take after their mother and don’t end up with a mental invalid or worthless lazy b*m for spouses like your wife has.
Does that answer your question? If you have any more please ask.?
Bronco
Hey, rtr, I'm full blooded German. Can you tell me what's wrong with me? My wife is full on Japanese. Maybe you can tell us all how inferior we both are.
rtr
I guess the question would be.
Is it creation, Evolution or both?
JackPoynter
rob,
In the study of culture, nurture is everything. In other arenas, nature becomes much more important. No matter how egalitarian you feel, the fact is that tall African pastoral types are the ones to bet on in long-distance running. And folks with rotund body shapes and little bitty sunken eyes will always have higher survival potential in really cold areas, if you discount the ability to buy warm clothing.
In fact, Professor Sharon Meloam, in his book "Survival of the Sickest," says that inheritable diseases are expressions of their ability to confer survival advantage at some point. Some of his examples are sickle cell anemia, hemochromatosis, and type 2 diabetes. In these, nature trumps nurture big time.
We already talked about sickle cell anemia, which helps to protect against malaria.
Hemochromatosis, or the inability to get rid of iron in the blood, confers immunity to bubonic plague.
And type 2 diabetes appears to be a cold weather adaptation, ingrained in the human genome during the last glacial event, the Younger-Dryas glaciation event about 12,000 years ago. It is most prevalent in people of northern European extraction, it causes people to gain weight, it concentrates a natural anti-freeze, sugar, in the blood, which is further concentrated by the frequent urge to urinate.
Diabetes will kill you, but generally speaking not until you've had a chance to have children, which is most of what nature requires for evolution.
So, there can be no general answer to the question, "which is more important, nature or nurture?" As usual, the real answer is, "It depends."
rtr
Jack
It would be Norwegian Vikings.
Rob, Let me ask you, Are you the same now as when you were of daft age.
Some of your posts lead me to either believe you never grew up or you are very young and have not expereinced much in the way of life today.
Other times I get the feeling you are not young but that your parents just didn't teach you much respect.
I believe Frank "Editor" Once pointed out to you that being young was great because you could be liberal and free "Mostly from not experiencing life however" my addition to that.
Let see here, "When I was Young" My hair was long, I wore the uglies bell bottom pants you could imagine, I had a floppy hat with patches on it, Rode like the wind on a motor cycle, and did some things I wouldn't even admit to doing now days.
They grew up in Canada and went back to their roots when it came to their beliefs and the way they were raised.
JackPoynter
rtr, Oh now, that's really interesting. A case of encapsulated cultural transference.
Their leanings in the 1960's and 1970's were certainly liberal / progressive / anti-government. Their colony in Haight-Ashbury, which rejected all forms of then-current social norms, including bathing, was so disease ridden that doctors wrote papers on it, citing the re-appearance of some diseases that were thought to have been extinct.
How fascinating to see them all these decades later engaged in entrepeneurial capitalism.
The world is not only stranger than we know, it is stranger than we can know...
---Albert Einstein (I think.)
Rob123
"....nurture really is much more important than nature." I totally agree. However, are you familiar with the autopsy studies done at McGill Universuty in the late 50's to late 60's, at which time they were shut down with some people fired? Temporal Lobe size and Adrenal Gland size was well documented, and quite disturbing, in my world of equality. I don't want to even get into it, just curious if your familiar with it? My Uncle taught there, which is how I became aware of it. Disturbing stuff......
JackPoynter
rtr: 'Vikings' can mean a lot of things.
1. Some Vikings settled the Hebrides, and their descendants are clan Donald / McDonald / Donal / Donaill and so on.
2. Other Vikings, a tribe called the Russ, carved out an empire on the Danube, and founded Russia.
3. Some did the same in Ireland, around Dublin (Dubh - Linn, the Black Pool, which is the harbor.)
4. Others settled in Normandy, in France, from which Billy the Conker attacked Harold of England in 1066.
5. Before the Norman Invasion, Danish Vikings conquered an area of Enlgand called the Danelaw, from which they ruled England for a while.
6. Then of course there are Norwegian and Danish Viking homeland. The Swedes didn't do much Viking, they went after the Finns.
Which one of these are you? Or some other, maybe.
rtr
Jack, Just to back up what you stated it is no more prevalent that the border states between the US and Canada.
We are all pretty much the same people but they allowed socialism to invade their country do to the backing of the Queen when we were having our revolutionary war.
If you go there "French excluded" you will find a disgusting amount of European politics controlling there country and getting worse every day.
I talked to many of the local people up there this year and know some here and they hate the socialism “Health care and etc” but it is too late to do anything about it in their minds.
The other side of that coin is when you dig down deeper into the beliefs you can still see the loyalty to socialism ”It is a funny thing to experience"
As strange as it may sound are draft dodgers from the 1950’s, 1960's and 1970's have had a profound amount of influence in there country in upper Alberta, They are prosperous entrepreneurs with extremely capitalists fundamentals and most of the ones I met had aliened themselves with the Mennonites. "Stange combination".
rtr
Rob, I stand corrected then, You are not a natural born Fascist then.
Mine was from the Vikings and one Pensylvania colony "Originally German but later stated Holland Dutch".
JackPoynter
Rob said, "Does that help explain why I am who I am, and my Dutch Genes dictate cleaning the Air just like I clean my bathroom? Believe me, I am not German"
Human beings are, genetically speaking, so much like all other human beings in terms of cognitive ability that no useful difference in that regard has yet been detected, pace a study a few years ago that ranked IQ as Asians first, Europeans second, Africans third.
If you don't believe that genetics plays little role in cultural development, consider Yvonne Goolagong, an Australian Aborigine raised in the British middle class; to hear her speak, you would not know that she wasn't a descendant of Billy the Conker. In this case nurture really is much more important than nature.
Another example would be General Albert Pike, a Massachusetts Yankee who so believed in the Southern cause, that he fought for the South, although his antecedents went back to the Mayflower. In my family he is known as the man who challenged my wife's cousin John Selden Roane to a duel, and as possibly the worst lyricist in the South, who wrote the worst lyrics to Dixie in existence. But his heart was in the right place, if you happen to be a son of the South.
BTW, rob, one of the families in my home county was descended from a Dutchman named Schlappi, who emigrated to South Carolina before the Revolution. On arrival, his name quickly morphed to Slappey. His descendant Henry Slappey personally financed a WBTS military company known as "The Slappey Guards," an unfortunate name unless you happened to know its provenance. If you were from the home county, you knew; if you were not, they didn't care what you thought.
Rob123
Well, rtr, my father was very Dutch, although with his red hair, he would remark about the possibility of a Swede in the Woodpile......And at 6'6" he was too tall to join the U.S.Army Air Force, despite having a Commercial Pilots License, so he went to Canada 15 months before Pearl Harbor and was warmly accepted and rushed through Officer Training by the British who were running the Flight School outside of Calgary. Later, he met my French Canadian Mother......Does that help explain why I am who I am, and my Dutch Genes dictate cleaning the Air just like I clean my bathroom? Believe me, I am not German......although I grew up around a lot of German Lutherans.....ye old Logging Days of NW Montana, when Timber was King and Money flowed......especially Friday and Saturday nights. Great neighborhood for a Dutch Mercantilist , with a very pretty French (Canadian) Wife with Big City ways.
rtr
faithful reader
I find the Flathead Beacon to be a much more intelligent forum.
======================
I have read the Flathead Beacon posts but never posted there and I sure find your coment humorous seeing as how I have seen Mooseberry slap you around at the Beacon too.
There's just no home for you is there.
benznd
Pete, "there ya go again." Huge global generalizations about an undefined they or them. They are after you Pete. Answer the question. What is a government-left syndicate. What does it look like. You threw the term out for all of us to think about and/or assume its actual existance. Now, explain yourself partner, maybe we will all be pleased with what you have found.... think so?
JackPoynter
My goodness, I'm getting a late start here this morning..where to start, where to start....
This is my favorite from the Post, from many years ago: esplanade: To attempt an explanation while inebriated. Love those refinitions.
rtr, actually I did say both Bush and Obama let the financial sector get away with their piracy. Greed is an equal opportunity attribute.
Pete, et al, the issue I was addressing wasn't fairness, it was 'remaining on topic.' If you all don't care, I certainly don't, except sometimes the responses get a little confused as to what people are talking about.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong: My impression of this site is that most of you know each other personally, and most of the heat is you all teasing one another. I have no problem with that, certainly. It just means I need to do a certain amount of filtering when I read your posts.
Regarding the Pennsylvania Dutch: Most of them came over with the Quaker immigration I talked about earlier, the Quakers were the most inclusive of all the migrations, and they had similar aims and beliefs. Another name for them is "German Pietists", and they settled not only in Pennsylvania but in North Carolina (Bethabara, Salem, Salisbury, Concord,) and in Georgia (Ebenezer, aka the Salzburgers.) Slavery was banned in Georgia when it was first founded; the desire of the people of Georgia to have slaves was fought tooth and nail by the Salzburgers, but they did not succeed in holding back the tide.) Many of them were Moravians, from a district in German Moravia called Wachau, hence the bank Wachovia, which was founded in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, a place where I lived for a couple of decades.
Old Salem, in Winston-Salem, is a living history community in which the residents dress in period costume and re-enact old traditions and crafts on a daily basis. If you ever get down that way, try to arrive at a time when a Revolutionary War re-enactment is going on, it's a treat with so many people in costume.
While the Moravians were building Salem, they lived in a stockaded community called Bethabara, with men and women in separate dormitories. During the day, when the men worked in the fields, a bell was rung every hour to call them to a minute of reflection.
During the French and Indian Wars, Bethabara was never attacked. They attributed it to their helping anyone of any color who needed a helping hand, and no one was ever allowed to pass through Bethabara hungry.
Long after the war was over, an old Indian of the district was asked if that was not why the community was attacked. "No," he said, "every time we arrived to attack, and had arranged our forces, that d-----d alarm bell would go off and since we had lost the advantage of surprise, we would leave."
That's enough for this post.
rtr
You know little robbie I have been waiting and watching for the right time and I think it is time now.
Are you aware that most Germans here in the USA in WWI and WWII stated they were Holland Dutch because they didn't want to be implicated with the enemy
It just might be the reason you are so closely related to the brown shirts you refer to, kind of like getting back to your roots eh little robbie.
It explains a lot about why you like Socialism, Fascism but I am still confused about your love of Marxism and Communism.
Rob123
Pete: Your correct, on that one, little, point....Don't get carried away.....
Here's the Washington Post's Mensa Invitational which once again asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding, subtracting, or changing one letter, and supply a new definition.
The winners are:
1. Cashtration (n.): The act of buying a house, which renders the subject financially impotent for an indefinite period of time.
2. Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an a**hole.
3. Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with.
4. Reintarnation: Coming back to life as a hillbilly.
5. Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people which stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.
Please imagine quotation marks around all this. If possible. As you know, the Pennsylvania "Deutsch" are very, very different than the Pa. Dutch. "Achtung, Baby"!
Pete
Rob...when flattering yourself its best to remember the source.
Pete
Jack...The fairness doctrine hasn't yet been applied to this sight, but give it time. For now you can bring up any argument you like, inlcuding ones that Bronco lost.
rtr
Bronco
rtr, is this Socialism or Communism? ::: U.S. President Barack Obama is slashing the pay for top executives at such wards of the state as Citigroup Inc. and General Motors Corp. in a move that compensation experts say looks like good politics but bad business.
===============
Just like Jack pointed out it is criminal, But what he failed to point out is the criminal element here is the Kenyan not letting them fail and proping them up because they were his biggest campaign funders.
Socialism, Communism, Neither one just plain criminal and it was done by the Kenyan using our tax dollars. "I know it doesn't bother you though since it was your Kenyan "messiah" that IS doing it.
By the way, How is that political platform building going for you in this comment section there "Bucko"
Rob123
Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
Pete
Rob...country buffets...brown shirts...fat people...your doc must have just drilled baby, drilled because your arguments suddenly became toothless and unintelligible. Next time wait until the nitrous oxide wears off before posting...or maybe visit the local country buffet with a representative of the anti -defamation league and he/she could give you a couple of helpings of what a real Nazi looks like so you don't go throwing the term around so recklessly....or are you as confused about what a Nazi is as you are about what a communist is?
rtr
Hey Pete you seem to have woke up a little "ornery" this morning.
I am seeing a blatant disregard for that Mulberry bush these socialists love to dance around in order to get you to follow them like sheep.."The iS bush"
Now if you would give of your heart "I mean your wallet and mind" and bow down to the messiah and his socialist angels every morning like the rest of the liberals do you would feel much better and then they could move on to there communism agenda instead of wobbling around this socialist movement..
Pete
Amazing how libs begin to lob Clintonesque rhetorical questions when faced with facts. What is China, what is socialism, what is communism, what is stateism...it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is? That is how we end up with Global Warming being responsible for colder weather..."endangered" Polar Bears reproducing at a record pace, spending trillions to save billions, the fairness doctrine, and on and on. If you all are so confused what China is about, why don't you ask the Tiananmen square dissidents or the Dalai Lama? I bet they have a much more definite answer than..."it depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
Pete
Benznd..."thanks for the attempt to delete the least of the offenses." No matter, frankly it was more for my benefit than yours...and I think that's obvious.
Rob123
Bighorn0216,,,,Excellent!......Although I am curious.....How did you get a 'Swine Flu' vaccine? Bribe, insider trading, or Health Care Worker? (-:
Bighorn0216
There are no rules here, Jack, but let’s review before we leave. There either is or is not a pattern of climate change, which either is or is not anything to be concerned about. If concerned, we either can or cannot do anything about it. The polar ice caps either are or are not shrinking or growing. Ditto, glaciers in Glacier, and for that matter, the Snows of Kilimanjaro. Cap-and-trade either is or is not a scam. Washington D.C. and NYC and the southern half of Florida either will or will not be under water in 10, 23, or 80 years. All the science contrary to one’s thinking on these matters is wrong and the result of a combination of conspiracy and hysteria.
To verify any of these facts, sources such as Wikipedia can be consulted. Or wait for the ResidenT plagiaRist to cut-and-paste unattributed “proof” from his diary of a madman.
Meanwhile, sales of firearms and ammunition remain brisk. Let the bread shelves in one grocery store in one metro area go empty, and all he*ll may or may not break loose. I want to be rural when that happens. (Though Cormac McCarthy’s “The Road” doesn’t offer that up as a sure thing, either. Bon appetit.)
Bring on health care. I’ve just had my flu-fighting Airborne supplement (the vaccine always makes me sick for weeks, so I'm giving it a pass this round) and am ready to go out into the world, where our captains of industry are making Al Qaeda look like a bunch of sissies and pikers when it comes to bringing the country to its knees. Or not.
Rob123
correction,,,line 7 S/be......(price fixing COULD become illigal).........P.S.S. And the reason the meetings are being held behind closed doors right now is because the Principals are argueing over the ability to charge more for obese patients; in a PC world that is illigal discrimination, although Tea Partyers would probably get hit the hardest, if pictures of their events are an indication of their general health. I guess they might get a taste of their own anti-government, laissez-faire form of Capitalism? Murphys Law, rtr.....
Rob123
JackPoynter: The health Care debate went on a few weeks ago, and we all finally agreed with Bronco; however, Max Baucus decided to take what he sees as a Centrist position......(Not my Centrist position, but his own Centrist position)....1/2 the uninsured get insured, my personal rate and rtr's corporate pension rate goes up, and Max still gets to fly around in the Corporate Jets. Still some details to work out, obviously, with maybe some anti-trust regulations coming down to the Insurance Industry inorder to foster competition (prive fixing COULD become illigal) and maybe open the door to Interstate Commerce of their product; but anything that causes the Right to pay a dime more is thrown into the "Socialist" camp and they learned how to scream this summer. Messy, problamatic, and the Doctors increase their share of GDP from 16% to at least 17%, with Health Insurance Companies keeping as large a percentage share of said GDP as possible. But at least it's not Euro-Socialism, with it's 10% take of GDP, and a slightly longer life span average, according to the Actuarial Experts and their confusing Math thingy. That has been screamed out of Congress. And the regional arguement content certainly does fall into your fine Cultural History of the U.S.
JackPoynter
What are the rules? Are we supposed to wait for an editorial on health care, and then bounce off of that?
Bronco
Jack, health care has been debated already and I won. rtr, answer the question.
Woody
What "system"?
rtr
Jack
Anybody want to talk about the health care
=========
I would like to know your opinion, Mine is obvious when it comes to you deserve what you work for and I will help my neighbors but it will be my choice as to which ones and not the governments choice.
JackPoynter
Bronco, what those people in the financial industry were / are doing is criminal. Every boom / bust cycle the USA has ever had has resulted in regulatory increases. The Country gets better, the regulations fade away, until the next time.
Capitalism is a great system, except for the capitalists. the same can be said for communism and socialism.
The Romans said, "Quis Costodet Ipsos Custodes," which means, "who watches the watchers."
Obama is just taking the actions that some of the folks in those industries know they need to take, but this way they get to blame Obama.
I hold no brief for thieves, of any stripe.
What they were doing was not capitalism, it was gambling, and they got caught, and the rest of us bailed them out, and both Bush and Obama let them get away with it.
That's another one of my hot buttons. Anybody want to talk about the health care system?
Bronco
rtr, is this Socialism or Communism? ::: U.S. President Barack Obama is slashing the pay for top executives at such wards of the state as Citigroup Inc. and General Motors Corp. in a move that compensation experts say looks like good politics but bad business. The government is forcing pay cuts of up to 50 per cent for top executives at those two companies, as well as at Bank of America, American International Group, Chrysler and the two big auto finance companies that are on government life support via the contentious TARP that funnelled billions of taxpayer dollars to troubled companies. Cash salaries for the top 25 executives must be cut by 90 per cent, and total executive pay, encompassing bonuses and benefits, will fall by half. Perks of more than $25,000 in value must also be approved by the government.
JackPoynter
Rob,
One would certainly think so, redneck jokes give me a major pain in the keister, and I tend to react strongly. But my ancestral group is actually East Anglian, the same place the Mass Bay disaster originated. But my folks settled south of Norfolk, Virginia, about 1630 or so, where they gave Gov William Berkeley fits, being a bunch of dissenters. He hung some, and ran some out, and fined others, but most hung in there. My people didn't settle in Mass Bay because they were just too contrary, didn't fit in with their group of zealots, either. Along about the War of 1812, one branch slipped down into Edgecombe County, North Carolina, along with other folks from the Norfolk Area, and stayed for a generation in Tarboro, NC or thereabouts. In 1823, my gggg-grandfather died, and his son moved down to middle Georgia, and there they stuck until the present.
In general, the younger sons of the original group moved together, and over the last almost 400 years, we have become inter-related to an amazing degree. Hold the redneck jokes, I have a knife. There was no incest involved, but families can't remain in such close proximity without intermarrying to some degree.
One of my projects is to investigate the relatedness of the men in the four WBTS units from my home county, comprising over 130 men each,, and I have found that from 60% to 80% of each were brothers, brothers-in-law, cousins, uncle-nephew or father-son combinations.
Beginning with my ggg-grandfather and his four brothers-in-law, I went on to find out that I had around a dozen relations in each unit. When those men went to war, they were not only fighting for but with their families. Many Federal units went in for 90 days, and then were mustered out; Southerners enlisted in 1861 and fought until they just couldn't fight any more, most of them until 1865, a record of endurance that is simply unbelievable.
To give you an idea, my gg-grandfather fought at First Bull Run, the Seven Days, the blocking action at South Mountain (the prelude to Antietam,) the Battle of Antietam itself, where his regiment suffered 80% casualties, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville (where he helped to crush the Federal left under Stonewall,) the Battle of Olustee in Florida, and finally lost a leg at the Crater in Petersburg, and went home. He missed Gettysburg due to his unit commander irritating Stonewall at Chancellorsville, who sent them to Charleston for battery guard duty at the harbor.
For men in the Army of Northern Virginia, this was not an unusual record. The South simply did not have enough men to have the luxury of 90 day enlistments.
The War solidified the South completely, and we were already pretty solid before it. Redneck or planter, we were all poor after the War ended, and we supported each other through economic troubles that didn't begin to end for most of us until the beginning of WWII. So, don't tell me redneck jokes; I know who and what they are, and I know what they accomplished from before the Revolution to the present, and they do not deserve to be demeaned.
We are going to have to be shown that anthropogenic climate change is more than the nightmare of people who have been attempting to destroy each other with hyper-industrializtion since Jefferson's Embargo. Southern California of course is drowning in pollution; having engineered their own problems, they now wish to have the rest of us help them clean up their mess, and we're not buying it.
Well, that's one of my hot buttons. There are others, you'll know when you hit another.
rtr
Benznd
83% of individuals who come to free health clinics are employed
==========================
And there in lies the problem, They should be deporting the illegal aliens and NOT giving them free health care at my expence.
Woody
rtr I liked it better when you had that pistol pointed at yourself. It gave me hope.
===========================
I would, can, and may bring it back but it scares Benznd and the dog, "But that was cute".
benznd
83% of individuals who come to free health clinics are employed
Woody
rtr I liked it better when you had that pistol pointed at yourself. It gave me hope.
rtr
Now rob, You don’t want to go there with brown shirts remember how I pointed out that Socialism and Fascism are so closely related…..
I would really hate to waste the blog space pointing out what you already know but hate to admit to.
I will give you credit you put your thoughts together instead of quoting a book no different than people quoting a TV show.
benznd
Rob, wickeee. Drink some wickeee. Hit your thumb with a hammer. Knock your shins against a hard object. Yell at houndawg!
benznd
rtr old pall, what is a communst? What does communism look like? Are we communists? The universal "we." Tell us about China?
Rob123
rtr: Now ya got me crying....feel better? If your going to cut and paste, ya should try to get the whole thought in, otherwise you mislead people as if you think all people are (as) dumb (as you). You are the epitome of the Brown Shirts who got Hitler going, but after Hitler gained power, had the SS dispose of them. Be careful, dude. Watch your back. In the Authoritarian game of quasi rugged individualism, the High IQ stealthy dude will jump out and scream "BOO!" "Trick or Treat?".......
rtr
rob
Time for an advil, and hope the arguement/discussion rises a few notches.
=====================
What you mean is that you hope it is lowered a couple notches since you have a hard time putting your thoughts together and have to quote from books since maintaining a thought is difficult for you.
rtr
Hey Pete, I see you got both Benznd and rob after you at the same time.
It kind of reminds me of a dog fight in the sky and they swopping in.
Better watch out, They are going to educate you on China not being a Communist country and how they love and I quote “I would be a Trotskyite and put the worker ahead of Production.”
.
Rob123
JackPoynter.....Reading some of these posts, I find mySelf thinking "Aha, I bet his Ancestrial Clan lived North of Hadrians Wall"......But the N2O is worn off....Time for an advil, and hope the arguement/discussion rises a few notches. I can't wait until the Specialist drills a hole in my Jaw Bone and puts in a Roofing Screw to hang a new Tooth. (-:
Rob123
Speaking of Mice and Men and things gone awry, just because it's late in the afternoon, but too early for the 'Early Bird Special' at the Country Buffet, try to remember Pete, your not the CEO in Charge of Production anymore. Ya got to wait another 30 minutes before the door opens, no exceptions. relax, breathe, and keep moving....the anxiety attack will pass. No use thowing insults in various & generally predictable places. I had a tooth pulled this afternoon, and in my weakened condition, you'll make me cry.
benznd
Pete, thanks for the attempt to delete the least of the offenses. However, judging from the life styles of the rich and famous beet farmers, I would gladly take the compliment. Now, without name calling, let me draw attention to your latest post "The "intellectual" left made the same arguments when the Soviet Union fell..."they weren't successful because the weren't the right kind of communist". One might as well assert that the rock thrown into the air fell to ground because it wasn't the right kind of rock. Really? Or could it be that rocks don't fly? Your other argument about Global Warming is equally devoid of compelling evidence (in fact as demonstrated here, quite the contrary) and yet you expect those who disagree with you to simply ignore logic and rules of evidence and instead put their faith and trust in a government-left syndicate so that it might decide." Who IS the liberal left? Seriously Pete. The very "fact" that you can only take shots at "facts" is disturbing and is an underlying flaw in your discussion. Your thoughts reflect a level of paranoia. I do not say that as a slam, just reality as I know it anyway. If they are out to get you, then I guess those kinds of thoughts.........It just seems that when all of this science is presented that you come up with this "government-left syndicate." What is that? And what liberal leftist stated that Russia fell because they did not have the proper or right kind of communism. AND, did that individual represent me? Be careful, as what comes around also tends to go around. Meaning, me thinks you generalize a bit too much. A government-left syndicate, hummm. A government-left syndicate. And just when did this happen Pete? What does a government-left syndicate look like to you or what should we look out for, because if it is evil, I want nothing to do with it. Last thought, do you believe any of the information that has been presented that supports the connection between use of fossil fuel and our rather quickly changing environment?
rtr
Hey Woody, You ever hear of a honey bucket "I'm not talking about the out portable houses you see around the construction sites.
In Korea they do it in a bucket and then put it on their gardens."The term honey bucket".
Therefore it could be concidered they are not sqatting where they eat but rather eating what they squat after the plant eats it.
Are you related to sensible by any chance?
rtr
Aristotle on What is Wrong with Socialism
Posted by HUNTER BAKER
on MONDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 2009
In response to the question, “What is wrong with socialism?”
“What is common to the greatest number gets the least amount of care. People pay most attention to what is their own: they care less for what is common; or, at any rate, they care for it only to the extent to which each is individually concerned. Even when there is no other cause for inattention, people are more prone to neglect their duty when they think that another attending to it.”
You know Benznd, There may be hope for you yet.
Editor
On the wisdom of pigs, let it be know that such is not always shared by humans... I believe that no less a worthy than Henry David Thoreau made the mistake of building his outhouse at Walden Pond on the up slope from his formerly potable water supply. The best laid plans o' pigs and men "gang aft agley."
benznd
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle
Thought that as long as I was quoting Aristotle, I may as well post more of his wisdom. I think this may be obvious to some of us to whom this is applies. Just something to think about, for us all.
rtr
Hey Woody, Last time I heard your city water treatment plant had that human waste all figured out, They run it through a blender put it in a jug let the sediment settle to the bottom then they pour it in a glass and hand it to you and it is just as clear and tasty as a mountain stream.
Sure glad I have well water and you socialists are not taking care of me.
rtr
Jack, That was a much better and objective analogy than Plantmans with his socialist twist.
The question is what will the straw be that breaks the camels back?
There is no militia this time around “As compared to the Clinton days” and yet the people are way more united this time and getting really sick and tied of paying for these hand out begging socialist bums that want to tax us with their out right deceit. “Obama has no militia to use the race card on or conspiracy theories this time like Clinton did” With out these socialists having a way to put a finger on any thing “North, South Militia, you name it makes it difficult for them” Their only thing is the tea baggers and that isn’t working out so well for them since all races and religions are joining them and their own blue dog constituents are deserting them.
Pelosi, Boxer, Reid, Bacus and Obama in reality are the best allies that the conservatives have on their side. That may sound strange but the best thing you can have in any political opposition camp are those elements that are so far out of touch with reality that they destroy their own party from with in. “Political change is like climate change it takes time but it will happen”.
Pete
Plantman....(not that there's anything wrong with non-Stallinist/-Maoist communism)...and what benign kind would that be? Show me the masses trying to immigrate to that society. This kind of moral equivalency argument is a favorite of the left and is bound to be applauded by the likes of Rob. The "intellectual" left made the same arguments when the Soviet Union fell..."they weren't successful because the weren't the right kind of communist". One might as well assert that the rock thrown into the air fell to ground because it wasn't the right kind of rock. Really? Or could it be that rocks don't fly? Your other argument about Global Warming is equally devoid of compelling evidence (in fact as demonstrated here, quite the contrary) and yet you expect those who disagree with you to simply ignore logic and rules of evidence and instead put their faith and trust in a government-left syndicate so that it might decide their fate for them. Granted you'll find a certain element here that will be more than happy to hold hands with you and jump blindly into the loving arms of the government, but it won't be this cat, and if that makes me ornery I will wear the label proudly.
Woody
I am totally amazed. Sane people can disagree about whatever is or is not happening to the climate, but to argue about squatting where you eat (polluting the atmosphere) is beyond reason. When the pollutants going into the air is measured in millions of tons something needs to be done. Even pigs know enough to go as far away from their food as possible.
JackPoynter
Plantman,
Good post. Wish such things were easily done. History says that precipitating factors leading to open conflict are seldom reversed, at least partly because no one thinks violence is really possible. As far as the level of rhetoric goes, we are at about the 1840 level of intensity now. Voices of reason can still be heard, but anger and frustration are building.
The controversy between liberalism and conservatism is rapidly taking on a moral dimension, both sides think they are right, paranoia and theories of conspiracy are visible on both sides, and global climate change is only one component of the struggle, though currently the most obvious.
The English-speaking world fought all-out ideological wars in 1629, 1776, and 1861. We're due, as the sports folks say. What is saving us now is the fact that we are not geographically divided as well as ideologically divided.
Think it can't happen now? Look at the electoral map of the last election. It almost exactly mirrors the electoral map in Lincoln's election, with the exception of California and the far west, which didn't participate in Lincoln's election. The division is the liberal, industrial North and California in opposition to the conservative, more rural, rest of the country.
Think we're smarter now? I don't think so, I think emotion has much more to do with it than logic.
Think a revolt isn't possible because of overwhelming force? Think again, the South knew what it was getting into in 1861, and it didn't slow things down a bit. When anger comes in the front door, logic goes out the back.
North against South? No, I don't think so. More like rural conservatives against city liberalism.
All this would be funny, if it wasn't so downright serious. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm right.
Rob123
"There has never been a time when man was so powerful he could change the climate"...... don't over state your conviction. Science could bite you on the rear-end, even if it's only 1/2 to 1 1/2degree C. Pretty darn possible us bipods aren't totally benign creatures......especially at 85M barrells of oil consumed per day. Nothing to sneeze at. But certainly something to think about, since 300M of us Americans (out of a total of 6Billion) consume 25% of the total. If nothing else, may we agree the Balance of Payments for this fossil fuel is absurd? Alternative Energy could become a Republican Banking Bonanza? Take a deep breath and think about it.
rtr
Rob, I read what he said this time and last week also...
I never once said there wasn't any climate change, There always has been climate change.
There has never been a time when man was so powerful he could change the climate however, Those who do think they can have read way to many Cartoon Magazines "Your not super man" hate to inform you.
rtr
http://www.videosift.com/video/Weather-Channel-30000-scientists-sue-Al-Gore-for-fraud
KUSI-TV Weatherman leads 30,000 Scientists in lawsuit charging Al Gore with fraud in Global Warming Scam. Also supporting the Scientists are 9000 PHD researchers.
Not looking so good for the fraudulant nobel prize winner Al Gore.
Kind of makes you wonder if it was one of Gore's stouges that tried to hold the fraudulent press conference for the Chamber of Commerce.
JackPoynter
Rob, the issue isn't whether their influence was good or bad, the issue is the difference in culture. What the Dutch did was to influence the incipient merchant class of east anglia to follow mercantile principles instead of the already existing caste-oriented feudal strictures. It led to egalitarian leanings, which most would say nowadays is a good thing, but that, combined with Calvinistic Nomianism, set them apart from the rest of England, and eventually gave rise to the Puritan sect.
It was this tendency to reject the authority of the established church and crown that eventually put them at odds with Charles I, and Bishop Laud. The Free Thinkers, as you call them, did indeed migrate to Amsterdam, where they were further steeped in Continental Reformism, which further widened the divide.
Eventually (1642) matters came to a head, and Parliament and the Crown broke, and the English Civil War resulted. When the Royalists were finally defeated, Charles was beheaded (murdered, in the Royalist view,) and Bisop Laud was hung.
Gov William Berkeley invited the younger sons of the Royalist faction to Virginia, where they formed the Berkeley Hundred, later known as the FFV, or First Families of Virginia. The aristocratic-caste world view was inherited by the Virginia Tidewater, and passed in turn to North Carolina and Georgia, and eventually to Alabama and Mississippi and Louisiana. South Carolina was founded as a provisioning station for English sugar plantations in Barbadoes, and thus had a built-in aristocracy separate from the rest of the South. Thus was the split between North and South deepened, geo-political considerations after the Louisiana Purchase widened the split, and the elimination of slavery in the Caribbean in 1833 caused the plantation owners of Barbados to move lock stock and barrel to South Carolina. Before 1830, there were more anti-slavery societies in the South than in the North. After 1830, the fulminations of William Lloyd Garrison and others began driving the wedges even deeper between North and South, as Southern Fire-eaters began to respond in kind.
Kind of like what's happened on this forum, if you wish to take Bronco's latest post to FaithfulReader at face value.
The split between the Northern and Southern Baptists developed at this point, you can say it's a symptom or a cause as you see fit; the point is that after the co-religionists quit talking to each other, the game was just about over. By 1850, it was culturally impossible to be anti-slavery in the Southern coastal regions as slavery became _the_ cultural aversion symbol defining the difference betwen North and South.
The Scots-Irish in the BackCountry were, as usual, basically more concerned with their own clan feuds than the larger political concerns of North America. Some of them fought for the South, some for the North, ostensibly, but mostly they fought each other. Remember that word 'mostly', nothing to do with human beings is ever 100% one way or another.
OK, I'm sitting here summarizing the paper, I get carried away. Enough.
Rob123
rtr: "Rob,
"The thing you touched on with global warming is that you don't know if it’s for real and neither does Al Gore or Obama,...." Don't forget to include yourSelf. And read Plantmans' dispatch.
Rob123
Plantman.....Bravo.....Well said.
rtr
Plantman, That was quite the speech after all the insults you were throughing around yourself last week when it came to Franks column then.
Bronco has had plenty of oppertunities to knock off his garbage and chooses not to so I see nothing you can do there.
As for the climate change it is deffinately real since we have had many ice ages and global warming to melt the ice.
Where the problem comes in is with the lies that humans can change something as massive as the climate and is ONLY being used by the socialists in power today to tax the middle and lower class and it is not for our benifit.
Note: If what I am say is not ture then point out to me why the real scientists that Al Gore was using their names are sueing him since they do not and did not ever believe climate change possibly could be caused by man. "30,000 have signed the petition against him"
These people in power are not trying to make things better, They are tax and steal theives using deciet only.
Plantman
“For what is the use of a house, If you haven’t got a tolerable planet to put it on?”
Henry David Thoreau
There are many who do no agree that Global Warming (or more properly, Climate Change) is real and that human activity is adding to it. These people, as this post clearly illustrates, tend to be just as zealous in their language as those who believe that it is happening and that humans are influencing it.
Unfortunately (and this occurs on both sides) these people want so much to discredit their "opponents" that they tend to use language that demonizes. They insist that those who want to make changes to limit our negative influence on the environment hate business, are communists, aren't "real" Americans or even "patriots" (a word which has become VERY charged of late), and are somehow working to destroy this country.
Well, what if these environmentally-minded people WERE'NT actually evil, didn't actually hate this country, and were actually trying to improve the the way the country worked? What if these people WEREN'T actually trying to take away the rights of others, but were instead trying to stand up for THEIR rights to a livable world.
And what if those who were trying to disprove global warming were actually trying to do just as much good as the people they opposed? What if they weren't pro-pollution, or anti-environment?
The fact is, this is a very emotionally charged issue, and it doesn't help when people start throwing around unfounded claims, insults, and inflammatory words. If more people would stop just arguing and actually communicate, if we could stop seeing people as opponents and see them instead as neighbors, if we would dare to imagine that we could all have our needs met, instead of having to grab what we could before someone else could get it, then we'd be living in a much better world.
A little utopian? Maybe, but then all closely held beliefs are at least a little bit so. I'm sure someone will jump right out and call me a communist, but that doesn't matter to me, 'cause I know it's not true (not that there's anything wrong with non-Stallinist/-Maoist communism). I just keep hoping that what I say will filter through the hate of those who would insult me so that they might some day understand what I AM trying to do: and that is to make the world a better place.
Rob123
JackPoynter......"Dutch influence on East Anglia....." As you can tell by my last name on my e-mail, Dutch influence was/is GOOD! (-: If my History is correct, the Dutch merely showed the various tribal Brits how to set up a banking system, hoping they would knock off the raiding of merchant ships for immediate gain and start trading on their own for long term commerce......but I could be biased? However, Free Thinkers at this time tended to escape with their Head still attached by moving to Amsterdam, where all those Dutch Engineers would build them their own bully pulpit, and sound proof it for aesthetic purposes.
rtr
To Jack,
I know what you mean, I watched my folk's like that after they retired and I promiced myself I would retire early enough to enjoy life before those so called "Golden Years" set in.
I have to say there was a little luck and some right decisions to but I made it, and still have time to kick the dog to if you know what I mean..
rtr
To Bronco
You have tried to use intimidation, bullying, ganging up on and coercing to drive me away ever since I first got here and YOU were the one that started it just because I wouldn’t follow your sheep like mentality, your wish to be taxed more, your amazing ability to try and force socialism didn’t work and really made you mad at me.
I think it is time for you to go back to chasing your tail again or at the very least go lay down in your corner like a good little puppy..
JackPoynter
rtr, I am somewhat hampered at the present time by physical problems and economic barriers. Believe me, what you describe sounds wonderful. Nowadays I struggle out into the backyard and watch the woodpeckers flit, that's about as far as it goes.
As far as drinking goes, I avoided that, mostly, because I always felt that it got in the way doing what I wanted to do. Now I'm retired, and could drink, but the doctors won't let me.
Don't it just seem like it's always something...
Bronco
Faithfulreader, the site experienced the tipping point of nearly total contamination when a person of questionable rationale entered under the guise of a certain rls (Rush Limbaugh's Son). The vitriol, the name-calling, the sustained animosity towards anyone with a different point of view, all of these antics combined with his evident low-level education was just too much for many in this room to absorb. Adjustments were made in our replies to these ignorant, low class attacks and most of us morphed into fight-fire-with-fire personas. In hindsight, it was a feeble attempt to regain the dignity we had struggled so hard to maintain in our discussions. Yes, before JrRush crawled out of the primordial slime we did get into spats but still remained on civilized terms with each other. So, sir, we are as much to blame as Flame Boy. Even the unflappable Rob entered the fray with fists posed. There is only so much personal insult one must endure before one's defensive instincts emerge. It is quite telling about those who hold his views that they have never called into question his disgusting and insulting way of self expression. Some would have their views imposed on others no matter the cost of civility and dignity. To have one so barbaric represent my own opinions in such a base manner would seem counter to the underlying philosophy I hold dear. So what's up with those who allow such an agent his free reign.
rtr
Jack
The Caribbean is a dream for me. In the weary depths of winter, I look at pictures and sigh, a hostage to love...
=================
There in lies the difference, I'd rather fire up my 4X4 pickup and drive out on the ice and then rip a big ol hole in the ice with a chain saw right next to my window and drop a line.
Listen to some good redneck tunes, drink some beer, get out and start a fire on the ice and drink some more beer.
OH yeah that is why I live here, I can do that every winter now.
ATVing and boating all summer long.
You really should get out and live those dreams you are talking about and not live through some one elses experience in a book.
rtr
Rob, rtr: "I know 12/21/12 Is when the Aztec calendar stops...." Actually, the Mayan Calendar.
===========
I stand corrected but I am looking very forward to that day "Just to see if anything does happen" since they did seem to have quite the culture.
Life is all about the adventure.
rtr
Rob,
The thing you touched on with global warming is that you don't know if it’s for real and neither does Al Gore or Obama,
What we do know is that Cap and Trade is a scam to increase taxes and make the rich just that much richer and that is where I have the problem. “As much as you dislike corporations making exorbitant amounts of money I would think you would be on the right instead of the left side”
There is nothing you could do to stop what you described with weather or gravatational forces so I believe we humans could spend our time doing something a lot more productive than trying to fear monger people with something you can’t control anyway.
To be honest with you I just look at what to pointed out as an adventure, “Global cooling, warming, gravitational forces” “Would people die” yes but such is life and it would sure take care of that human affect on the climate… The best part is Bronco stated we should be prepared, I am prepared and I wonder if he even knows what the word means “It appears to him it means tax me more”.
As for the glaciers in Canada “Jasper Park” they have them marked from the early 1800's and they were shrinking back then and I have to admit that ignorance from people stating the glaciers in the northern hemisphere is man made shows just out right stupidity and the fact that they don’t get out to see the reality of what they are repeating from the empty heads in Washington D.C..
Those glaciers are a lot bigger than the ones in Glacier Park, you should see them if you get a chance before they are gone and or the fact that is cooling now you way want to wait until they grow back. “Oh you won’t be here sorry I couldn’t help that” “They take buses out on them”
I have followed this global warming fraud since the beginning and it hasn't been until the last few years that real scientists got mad and started posting the truth because Gore was using many of their names to back up what he was telling everyone and they didn't back it at all "Hence the law suit against him" "Another one of your Nobel Prize winners"
The bottom line is there is nothing we can do about climate change but we can fight against lies created to increase taxes.
You see Rob I have never claimed to be college educated and don’t really like to read books so yes you can walk circles around me with that but I can walk circles around the average person when it comes to nature and the forces with in it.
I do not mean this bad at all but the way I look at it is book reading is for your enjoyment but the reality of it is you are only living someone else’s life no different than TV which does not relate to personal experience and your version of what you read you may find out is totally different than what you truly experienced yourself if you went out and seen some of these places “You stated you did with Glacier Park my concern there is how the h*ll did you come away with the Glaciers melting being caused by man” since they have been melting for over a century.
faithful reader
Yes, Rob. Too much fog!
JackPoynter
Rob, thank you. It has begun escaping its bonds lately, but its main reason for existing, as I said earlier, was to straighten out some of my own thinking.
As far as it being a 'cultural' history, of course it is. And its underpinnings are in Doctor Fischer's book, "Albion's Seed", and so it's not 'my' cultural history. But I will admit stirring in some other ideas, principally but not totally from Kevin Phillips "The Cousins' Wars."
I need to rework some of it. The really interesting part to me is why and how the schism in English society developed; and the origins to that go back to 1548 and Henry VIII's desire to be an autocratic monarch on the continental plan, and Dutch influence on East Anglia and the rise of the mercantile English aristocracy in opposition to the already existing feudal magnates.
Which reminds me of something a kid said back in the 1970's at a career day, after a person came by and spoke on the brand new profession of data processing: "All this is very interesting, if you're interested in this sort of thing."
Which most people aren't, so I'll work on it in private. Now that you have my email address, write me your thoughts. If I use them in the paper, I'll give you credit; that and about $20.00 will probably get you a nice cup of coffee at Starbucks.
Rob123
rtr: "I know 12/21/12 Is when the Aztec calendar stops...." Actually, the Mayan Calendar. But good to see your interest in anthropolgy. There version of reality is interesting, however, their Math was impeccable. My concern is the effects of gravity on our Plate Tectonics. I would hate to see Siberia rip in half, AGAIN, and erupt lava for hundreds of years, AGAIN. Or the Rift Valley pull apart SOME MORE. Or the Hawaiian Islands collapse into the Sea causing 1000 foot high Tsunamies. Or Yellowstone blowing and covering Nebraska in 100 feet of dust. Pure speculation of the 'what if' nature. But don't worry, your in control..............
Rob123
JackPoynter.....After a quick read, you really should have this paper on a Web Site. Very interesting Cultural History......Just a thought. Will 'study" it as time permits. In many ways, Political Science puts me into the realm of an amateur Historian with opinionated takes on the obvious. Your Cultural Approach is fascinating.
Rob123
rtr/Pete.....I remember going up to the Columbia Ice Fields/Glacier on a family trip in the late 50's and riding around on the Glaciers in their huge snowmobiles. In the late 90's I took my family up there to do the same, and WOW!, they had really retreated.....Miles. It wasn't as much fun, therefore it wasn't good. Of course, I was older, wiser, and footing the bill. My kids had a heck of a good time. As a child, it was an out of the way place, and quite rugged. As an adult, it was quite commercial and had been tamed. And unless something changes, my grandkids are going to have to hike a good 10 miles over the debris field to even get to the glacier. Of course, they will experience it as "normal", and anything I say will be "Oh-Grandpa". He*ls Bells, might as well clean up our act.
Rob123
faithful reader....Any criticism concerning the weather?
Rob123
rtr: they have a Weather Futures Trade on the Chicago Merc.....Maybe you should spend some time and money there, instead of picking blips off the internet for whatever suits your frame of mind, and throwing it out to us skeptics as gospel truth. Heck, I enjoy betting against folks who are all wrapped up in emotion. And they have both regional type weather patterns to bet on, with that nasty Jet Stream and it's (so far) fickle nature, along with 'going long' (as in REAL long), concerning the future of the world's weather. You'd enjoy it, and possibly help finance your early retirement. Just watch the commissions they charge.....oops, never mind, that would be like a "CEO Pay Regulation" and to the Left of your Ghensis Khan/ Attilla the Hun thinking.
faithful reader
Also, I meant to say that I read much more than I post. I like to see viewpoints that are new to me if they are thoughtful or substantiated. Some readers really do keep their comments on point, such as Jack Poynter, who seems to be new here, and the reader named tox. I'm not saying I agree with their viewpoints, but I do follow the links and discussion if they are intelligent. As I said earlier in this thread, I'm far from qualified from having an educated opinion on this subject, so I like to read what is out there. I disregard the shrill posts and personal attacks.
There. Now I've said more than I have in several months :)
faithful reader
I'll post this here because the site doesn't have a general or feedback forum. If it gets yanked, I understand. Although, looking at the personal barbs and nonsense that mark last week's column on the family court ruling, apparently nothing is off-topic and nothing is moderated here, as it is on other newspaper sites.
That kind of leads to my point. I think the Daily Inter Lake's web site has degenerated terribly recently. One has to scroll past the ads, a cavalcade of fluff photos and sports to get to the news stories. These appear to be the most bland offerings in the paper (oh my goodness, the superintendent won an award!). The mock-up of the paper's front page shows some interesting stories. But the on-line version generates zero comments lately. Zzzz.
Meanwhile, Frank's columns seem to provoke the only discussion going on this website and he (INDEED!) posts some provocative topics. Unfortunately, it quickly turns into a place for readers to call one another names, question their sexuality, or portray some internet tough-guy posturing that has nothing to do with the subject. Lately, I find the Flathead Beacon to be a much more intelligent forum.
I really am a faithful reader and have frequently lauded the news staff for their fine work. I'm sorry to see the quality of the web site reduced to this. Oh, yes, and I just won't sleep right until the community tab can correctly spell "nuptials" on the weddings and engagements link!
JackPoynter
Pete, I use it for a desktop picture.
One of the problems I had with the anti-global warming folks (now they don't know what's going on, so they just flail around, one day cooling, one day warming,) was that they were all worked up about the place getting a little warmer. In the first place, in the Miocene when our hairy ancestors were evolving, temps were a _lot_warmer than they are now, and we were born during that era. In the second place, warmer temps are a lot better for you than cooler temps (I remember one article bemoaning the fact that with global warming folks were going to live longer, and so social security would be impacted...,) and in the third place -
I grew up in Georgia. In a 32 foot aluminum trailer. In the middle of an open field. With no air conditioning. And my folks and I survived just fine.
I have always felt that any place where it was cold enough to walk on the water was sacriligeous. The only reason I am as far north as I am now is because I married a girl from Kansas City, and she wanted to go home after 35 years of marriage, before all her remaining relatives passed away.
The Caribbean is a dream for me. In the weary depths of winter, I look at pictures and sigh, a hostage to love...
Pete
Jack...wife and I are headed to Turks Caicos in Jan...good time to get away from the snow and light deprevation. That really is a terrific pic...would make a great screen saver.
Bronco
rtr, your ways are strange to us. The planet you come from, is there a gaseous form of testosterone in the atmosphere? Are all of you angry, hate-filled name-callers? Do you beat your chests too? We used to. A cast-back from our pre-evolved days. Some still do here but they don't do well in civilized company.
Pete
This sight sure does the funky chicken sometimes.....
Pete
Benznd...by the way, I apologize for the beet farm comment, you didn't deserve that one...I hit Post when I should have hit delete.
Pete
Benznd...by the way, I apologize for the beet farm comment, you didn't deserve that one...I hit Post when I should have hit delete.
JackPoynter
Fifteen's about what I get too, although there are some indications in the water in front that I can't figure out whether they're more dolphins or reflections. That picture is from the Antiqua StormCarib correspondent...I wanna go, but will have to put it off for a while. Hope not too long.
Pete
Benznd...huh oh Sensible is going to be all over you about "wetting" in your own back yard. I can see the capital letters flying already. About the cold...I would tell you to put another log on the fire, but all you have is fence posts and you know what Frost said about that. Besides I'm sure you aren't going expand your carbon footprint just to avoid a little pneumonia...take one for the planet.
Pete
Jack...re your photo...conservative 15, liberal 35, CBO 15-35...great pic though.
rtr
Bronco
A bit of advice, if you don't mind; try toning down the hatred a bit with everyone who disagrees with you. We tend not to be too single-minded as a whole. So, Nanu, nanu. Live long and prosper. And may the force be with you.
===============
REALLY, I never felt the arrows you shoot at me when I first came into these comment sections at all.
Guess you just didn't realize you were shooting arrows at someone that had been in battle with the likes of a puny little pup like you before.
How's that political Platform building going for you BUCKO.
rtr
Hey, Banznd sorry I left you out in my last post about the socialist political platform, You can feel acknowledged now and carry on with you pot growing operation.
Possibly you could do us all a favor and smoke a little less before posting next time however, Your ramblings are a bit hard to follow when you do that. "Just a thought"
JackPoynter
In honor of Bronco's houndawg, I changed my avatar picture to one of my favorites from Antigua. Click on it to enlarge it, and see if you count the number of dolphins in the wave front.
benznd
Dear Pete....... WHAT? The beet season is just about done! Rain has hindered the progress. But, rest assured Pete, your Snicker will still be loaded with beet sugar. Best hope that it is not the sugar beet I wet on last night. (-: Humm, I wonder what will come my way next. Let's see, since bowing out of psychology a few years ago, I have driven cars for a rent-a-car business, repaired wheel chairs and kept the sidewalks clear of snow and the summer lawn green and purdy ifor the elders in a nursing home. Now I have participated in a beet harvest. I think I may now sit back and experience perhaps the coldest winter of my life, which includes 3 years in Alaska, 4 in South Dakota and 58 in Montucky. It was always Montana till I moved to the Flathead. Presently company excluded of course.
rtr
Pete, That is too funny, I brought it up yesterday how the fraud of the chamber of Commerce tried to pull off a press conference and got caught.
I am telling you this fraudulent government is falling apart so fast it is unreal.
It's almost falling apart as fast as rob, Bronco, Bighorn, sensible and the rest of them thought they were going to turn this comment section into a socialist political platform just like I have seen on so many other News Paper sites. :Mostly failed but they tried" “How’s that working out for boys and girls”.
Bronco
Thank you,rtr, for investigating the dozen or so sites that I visited to gather information on global warming. How you decided which sites I looked at I can only guess must be a talent only those from your universe possess. I can only infer from little evidence that beings from there are endowed with several thumbs on each hand, which would explain the inadvertent pushing of the caps lock key while typing and your less than accurate spelling. I had a difficult time learning Spanish and cannot imagine how hard it must be trying to learn a language from a different universe. Best of luck getting along with my fellows, by the way. A bit of advice, if you don't mind; try toning down the hatred a bit with everyone who disagrees with you. We tend not to be too single-minded as a whole. So, Nanu, nanu. Live long and prosper. And may the force be with you.
JackPoynter
If you want the straight skinny on the Caribbean hurricane season, may I recommend the Caribbean hurricane monitoring site WWW.StormCarib.com. It is an alliance of weather watchers on the different islands, and helps to coordinate pleas for help, and daily reports of conditions. When nothing is happening, it also serves as a venue for information on various island activities and as a sort of minor social site. These people are SERIOUS tropical storm watchers; even a tropical depression can cause major rainfalls and much loss of life. They knew all about Saharan dust suppressing tropical storms, long, long ago. They call it their "protective red dust," which gets all over everything, but means they can go out to sea without fear. And they knew about warm SST's bringing the big storms, when the water reaches blood temperature, they are very watchful.
They have a little traditional rhyme, which is by no means great art, but which serves to capsulize the hurricane system:
June, too soon.
July, stand by.
August, come they must,
September, we'll remember...
What they're remembering is the big storms of September, the worst month of the year for them, in general.
This year...here's the Tropical Weather Summary from the NOAA page
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2009/tws/MIATWSAT_sep.shtml?
SEPTEMBER WAS A RATHER QUIET MONTH WITH ONLY TWO NAMED STORMS...ONE OF WHICH REACHED MAJOR HURRICANE INTENSITY. THE LONG-TERM AVERAGE FOR SEPTEMBER IS FOUR NAMED STORMS...TWO HURRICANES...AND ONE MAJOR HURRICANE. IN TERMS OF ACCUMULATED CYCLONE ENERGY..ACE...WHICH MEASURES THE COMBINED STRENGTH AND DURATION OF TROPICAL STORMS AND HURRICANES...SEPTEMBER ACE WAS ONLY 22 PERCENT OF THE LONG-TERM MEAN...THE LOWEST VALUE SINCE 1994...AND THE SIXTH LOWEST SINCE 1944.
October will be summarized after the month ends, they don't do partials.
The other months are much like that, except Hurricane Bill raised the ACE to 30% over the mean for August.
You can pretty much depend on the day-to-day detail and summaries, and the monthly summaries. Yearly predictions not so much, but they do their best, I believe, This year, when they did their August re-assessment, they cut everything in half. Their skills and data effect millions of people, sometimes in the very short term. They avoid political announcements, although I did notice that the cast of characters changed somewhat following 2005, when some of their announcements of impending storms sounded a little dramatic, not that they didn't have reason to be.
The point of this post is to show you a little bit of what is available on the NOAA website, www.nhc.noaa.gov. Straight information on what is happening on the oceans is available there, without being filtered through the usual media sources.
Pete
Bronco...Mega Disasters on the History Channel doesn't count. All the what-if stuff might be good for your novels...but if you keep projecting this junk into reality you're going to end up in ND on a beet farm too.
Pete
Headline..."White House Targets Chamber of Commerce Over Opposition to Reform Plans" So now the Chambers Membership is exploding....LOL....Rob, if you have a membership I hope you haven't renewed...it wouldn't be very loyal of you and the local DNC party boss might pay you a visit in the dark of night. You're already vulnerable to demonization being a fossil fuel merchant and all...best stay on the Party's good side. Maybe Kennedy will funnel some cheap Citgo gas your way in return for your devotion to the cause?
rtr
Bronco,,,Yeah I have notice the information you have that is an OUT RIGHT lie but nothing with FACTS or supported by any one reputable.
You remind me of a dog that just can't resist chasing his own tail.
Bronco
rtr, please reveal the coordinates for your parallel universe to us. Here in this one I find all sorts of supporting evidence from reliable sources for melting polar ice caps and receding glaciers.
rtr
Sorry about that last factual post Pete but every where I look there is just over whelming evidence that this global warming is a hoax and just a conspiracy in order to tax and steal from the working class.
I just don't think the media is portraying my Savior Obama in the proper light with all the HATERED I see towards him from the entire GLOBAL world wide internet pointing out these terrible facts about him having his Socialist angels next to him.
My Saviors Socialist angels were suppose to be a secret you know and now the cat is out of the bag, ACORN is falling apart,Will there be no end to it,,,My whole world is crumbling right before my eyes....
rtr
Obama climate czar has socialist ties
By Stephen Dinan
Until last week, Carol M. Browner, President-elect Barack Obama's pick as global warming czar, was listed as one of 14 leaders of a socialist group's Commission for a Sustainable World Society, which calls for "global governance" and says rich countries must shrink their economies to address climate change.
By Thursday, Mrs. Browner's name and biography had been removed from Socialist International's Web page, though a photo of her speaking June 30 to the group's congress in Greece was still available.
rtr
You got that right.
rtr
You got that right.
Pete
rtr...Quit citing facts, you're clogging up the blog. :-) instead, save the horny Polar Bears by filling up at Citgo, its the best gas a revolution can buy.
rtr
http://www.energy.probeinternational.org/ice-the-arctic-the-rise
14 May 2009
According to scientists at the IARC-JAXA International Arctic Research Center in cooperation with the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (IARC-JAXA) the arctic sea ice extent for May 1st is at its highest level in more than six years.
For those readers who don’t know what the arctic sea ice extent is (and really, who would), it’s the area of sea ice covering the ocean where sea-ice concentration (SIC) exceeds 15%. More simply, sea ice extent is frozen ocean water.
We’ve made a chart analyzing the number of square kilometers of sea ice extent on May 1st going back to 2003
Please go to this URL complete with charts to get the real facts about Artic ice increasing and NOT decreasing.
Pete
Benznd says, "One sighting or instance of an event does not necessarily indicate a trend." My point exactly. Now apply that to your sweeping dismissal of the tea party folks, sun spots and your job as a beet farmer and you'll wake up a little happier in the morning.
rtr
http://townhall.com/columnists/TomDeWeese/2009/03/11/the_world_wildlife_funds_polar_bear_lies
Polar Bears, holding on for dear life to bits of ice, their artic habitat destroyed by Global Warming. And the narration tells you of the tragic fate of the bears, all because of man and his selfish destruction of the earth. Of course, the ad ends with a plea for funds to help the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) protect the bears and stop Global Warming. Cute, fuzzy animals always do the trick.
Trouble is, it’s all a lie. Not one word of the ad is true. Polar Bears are not endangered. There is no indication of any reduction of their populations. In fact, they are actually being hunted by locals who have to live with them in an effort to keep their populations down. Of 13 Polar Bear populations, 11 are thriving and growing.
The real agenda behind WWF’s Polar Bear campaign is to stop drilling of American oil and to shackle the United States with the UN’s Kyoto Climate Change Treaty.
rtr
For most of the last 3 million years, the Earth endured ice ages, with brief interglacial periods of 5000 years occurring roughly every 125,000 years. Naturally, therefore, Washington and much of the contiguous US was under miles of ice most of the time. We are in an unusually-prolonged interglacial period at present – 11,000 years. For most of that period – and notably during the Minoan, Roman, and medieval warm periods – it was warmer than today in the Arctic and worldwide. Indeed, in the 1930s and early 1940s it was up to 4 Fahrenheit degrees warmer than today in the Arctic.
It is not true that “almost half” of the Arctic sea ice has melted – its winter extent has barely declined at all, though there has been some decline in summer, particularly in 2007, for largely natural reasons (we know the reason cannot have been “global warming”, because the planet had been cooling for six years at the time – a cooling that has continued and is now seven and a half years long).
At present, both Arctic and Antarctic sea-ice extents are at or near record high levels for the time of year – the Arctic has set a nine-year record according to IARC/JAXA, and the Antarctic is approaching the record-high sea-ice extent set in late 2007, according to the University of Illinois. There is no likelihood of a total disappearance of Arctic sea ice any time soon
benznd
Pete, "One swallow does not a summer make, nor one fine day; similarly one day or brief time of happiness does not make a person entirely happy." Aristotle
Translation: One sighting or instance of an event does not necessarily indicate a trend.
rtr, shrinkage? Shrinkage? Seinfeld?
benznd
Rob, I read the thread you posted. It was humorous and reasonable, to say the least. I have quoted a couple of the blogs from that British article. Perhaps if we remove the red dots or the burn from the seat belt, we can talk intelligently about this issue. "Since high school science in the '70's, I have understood the following. CO2 in the atmosphere does exactly the same job as does a blanket on a cold night. Effectively, it holds the heat in. CO2 does not absorb the short wave radiation we get from the sun (sunlight). CO2 does absorb long wave radiation that the earth emits. Recall that the earth must emit the same total amount of energy as it receives, otherwise it accumulates energy and gets hotter. When that CO2 re-emits the energy it absorbed, half of it goes on out to space, and half of it comes back to earth, keeping it warmer. Humans have altered atmospheric CO2 content by fossil fuel combustion. That is, humans have thickened the blanket around the earth, helping it stay warmer. In other words, the principles of heat transfer that are the driving mechanism of the climate change that we are now seeing are simple, well-known and irrefutable. The response of the complex, interacting planet (for which we must accept that we have stewardship) to this simple mechanism may be varied and non-linear, with lag times and delayed effects, but it does respond to the detriment of all its inhabitants and their children." King O'Mally, Castle Cove, England
"Last week somebody energetically denied that Arctic Ice is receding and declared the trend had reversed, all based on flimsy hearsay and 'facts' that have long been proven incorrect by science. This week we learn that a properly conducted study clearly shows that the Arctic Ice will be gone altogether through the summer months in only a few decades. I think it is worth to memorise the names of all the enthusiastic 'sceptics' and get back to them in a couple of decades (or their kids, as it is them who will suffer the consequences of inaction). All complex science aside, how can anybody in their right mind think that if we burn an amount of half the fossil fuels that have accumulated over millions of years in just 150 years can be without consequence? And why is it a bad idea to limit pollution, whichever form it takes? These are the simple questions." Brenda Loots, Sydney, Australia
rtr
Now Pete you should know that anyone that opposes Obama or Socialism is a raving lunatic, racist, stupid, tea bagging, redneck, loser by now.
I know after being insulted enough times on this site "I finally seen the light" and that I needed to change my ways and now every morning when I get up I bow down to MY brand new and Enlarged picture of Obama with his Socialists angels and I give thanks to him for eveything he ALOWS me to have.
Pete
I was interested to see the front page article on producer Jerry Molen. I was confused though by his participation in the tea party movement....I was led to believe by comments on this sight that the tea party folks were all raving lunatic, racist, stupid, tea bagging, redneck, losers. MMMMMM....makes you think somebody didn't kow what they were talking about.
rtr
SHRINKAGE OF PARK GLACIERS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Prior to the beginning of the present century all glaciers in the park, and practically all others throughout the Temperate Zone of the Earth, began to shrink in response to a slight change in climate, probably involving both a temperature rise and a decrease in annual snowfall. From about 1900 until 1945 shrinkage of park glaciers was very rapid. In other words these glaciers were not in equilibrium with the climate, for less ice was added to them each winter than disappeared by melting and evaporation during the remainder of the year".
Note the dates, Not exactly the industrial revolution with man made pollution even though the glaciers were still receding just like the Canadian glaciers in Jasper Park..
I did goof on one thing and that is that this last year was Not the latest opening but did have huge amounts of snowfall with class 5 snow slides do to heavy snowfalls which relates to a build up in Glaciers no matter how small it may have been Glaciers normally take hundreds of years make much in the way of distinctive changes.
Just keeping my information accurate….
Pete
Rob...I remember we jumped into that faith debate with fervor a while back and I think I understand your position and you mine. Although I do tend to agree with Bronco, albiet from a different perspective (surprise, surprise) that religion has and does by its nature "color every aspect of our lives" to some extent or another. Then we get into a discussion about the definition of religion and things get real interesting. Global warming seems so pedestrian in comparison, but today pedestrian is good.
rtr
Bronco, The difference is that Jack has not attacked anyone unlike YOU NOT living here and going out of your way to attack anyone that opposes YOUR views at the drop of a hat even though you would be with a very small minority of people that live here.
Also you very seldom add anything to the topic and usually when you do it comes from some whacked out liberal source and is useless information anyway.
Remember Glacier Park, I couldn't leave that one along it was to funny.
And just for your information on Glacier Park the Glaciers have grown for the past two years and have been the latest opening for the going to the Sun Road since it first opened do to the snowfall and cold tempretures. "You Fool".
You are on the same level as sensible twisting your OWN points of view until they become so ridicules that it becomes clear to me that I could freeze ice in the oven.
If you want to be treated like you belong here then act like a human and not like your dog with bad habits.
You do make for a nice court jester some times though and are an easy target to make fun of so for that reason I do enjoy you being here Bronco. "Just so I can amuse my evil side"
JackPoynter
Bronco, that is a beautiful dog. We had one like him, his name was the Mighty Samson, and his preferred method of operation was eating, sleeping, passing gas, and looking for Delilah. When it snowed in North Carolina where we lived at the time, I'd snap on his leash, put on my combat boots, and go skating behind him; he had no trouble at all pulling me, and at the time my weight was considerable.
He went to his reward many years ago, I've never owned a dog since. We simply have never lived in a place where I could let one run free, and I would not wish that sort of thing on a being I loved.
JackPoynter
Short version:
Religion - I ain't getting into it. In the first semester of 1963 I shared a room with a Baptist preacher's son, and neither one of us got any sleep. Since then, I have shared work experiences with people all over the religious map, including both those with no religion and some Indian Pantheistic types when I was onsite project manager with the workforce in Hyderabad. In aggregate, they had a holiday for every single day of the year, and they all worshipped different gods. Try developing a work schedule around that, why don't you. "Where is Prasad?", I messaged. "He is at home with his family, today is the feast day of Ganesh," they said. "Fine," I messaged back, "I'll be in the restroom committing honorable seppuku..."
Kipling said, "There are nine-and-sixty ways /of constructing tribal lays, /and every single one of them is right."
That's my current attitude, after all these years.
Religion - I ain't getting into it.
Bronco
Again rtr, it is not about who is right or wrong or who is to blame. It is about preparedness and any possible prevention or stalling of, as far as humans are concerned, global climate change. Why is everything such a pis$ing match to you?
Bronco
rtr, thanks for not letting us down; we are most unsettled when our expectations are unmet. May I remind you that Jack is a fellow non-local like myself? Will the stereotyping continue or will there be an exception since he shares disagreement on an issue with those whom you oppose? Jack, 'attacking' a viewpoint may need some explanation. At what point does opposition or disagreement become attack? I sense a worthy adversary in you on some issues which we will most certainly address. Religion colors every aspect of our lives unless one gains a perspective of right and wrong without the assistance of dogma. It can't help but rear its hydra head in this forum since there are more churches than saloons in the Flathead and folks tend to defend their beliefs even at the cost of reason. Rob, Bronco presents quite fearsome with his deep voice and missing right foreleg. Around me he's somewhat protective but I would never advise even raising your voice around my wife or you may be sporting a Malinois bracelet. Her nephew got a tad confrontational with her and received a nip in the but-tock for his trouble. He's picked up some bad habits from our Jack Russell though and at times shares a taffy-pull with a cat with the old terrier.
rtr
It seems there is just no answer to this issue. "Note the dates"
“Most geologists think the world is growing warmer, and that it will continue to get warmer.” L.A. Times 1929
April 28, 1975 Newsweek printed an article about scientists predicting doom and gloom because of Global Cooling.
rtr
Bronco
Then regards your turning on its head my comment to rtr;
=============
I must have missed this, But it appears you are feeling left out especialy since it looks like Rob is abandoning you too.
I am thinking you should put some sun glasses on that dog he looks confused "Master like pet".
Rob123
Bronco....Your Belgium Shepard....beautiful.....How does he react to strangers? If an old friend, who he doesn't know, rushes up and gives you a big hug, will he take the 'intruder' down? There instinct is about the opposite of my English Setters.....although they are Field Setters, and outside they are in their own world, on the Big hunt. But they always know where I am. Inside, they are very laid back and mellow.
JackPoynter
Debating personal religious views should, I think, be left to the forums dedicated to that purpose.
Debating religion's effect on history is reasonable.
I will say, Bronco, that my views are not the same as yours. But I would never attack your, or anyone else's for that matter, viewpoint.
Making it through the night is too fragile a thing for most people.
Bronco
Jack, I did catch the "founded" clue but failed to connect it reasonably as to why and how preferred theocracy evolved into present-day liberalism. I think 'evolve' is the operative word here, following nature's 'tendency towards complexity.' Then regards your turning on its head my comment to rtr; should it be rewritten to include both sides its appropriate application would be evident. These huge avatars are creepy, especially Frank's at double that size.
Bronco
I'm afraid to submit anything right now. There's a flamer-red '57 Chevy convertible posing as my avatar. Jack, I did catch the "founded" clue but failed to connect it reasonably as to why and how preferred theocracy evolved into present-day liberalism. I think 'evolve' is the operative word here, following nature's 'tendency towards complexity.' Then regards your turning on its head my comment to rtr; should it be rewritten to include both sides its appropriate application would be evident.
rtr
I kind of like this new format, I chnged my Avatar to my back yard just for the occasion.
Rob123
Pete....concerning the judeo-christian mindset of our country, past and present. I recognize it, I have it, but it's not "Holy". It's just Cultural. As for mySelf, upon my return from Vietnam, I went back to college with the good Fathers of the Holy Cross and seriously studied and questioned these fine minds, and by the time I graduated and up to the present, I have no belief or Faith in the Resurrection. Sorry, but I don't. The Old Testament and New and the koran are antiquated systems of Artistic History with some relevant Moral points and some archaic staus qup thinking for the Ruling Elites gratification. But, it MUST be studied. Who we were flavors who we will be. Our present 'dumbing down' scares me.
JackPoynter
It's happening to me too, so not something you did. I'll send you the paper as soon as I hear from Frank.
Rob123
These pictures sure did get bigger? Hopefully, I didn't do something on my computer I wasn't supposed to? (-:
Rob123
JackPoynter.....Frank has my email, phone # etc., and certainly can give it to YOU. And I really appreciated your "(I don't know that I agree with all of it, it was an attempt to straighten out my own thought processes on the subject.)" I hear that.....Some of my old college papers and past posts cause me to stop and wonder...(-:
rtr
This is a MUST watch URL, It shows how history is repeating itself from 1948.
That would be Obama and the Democrats selling “ISM”.
http://nationaljuggernaut.blogspot.com/2009/09/this-cartoon-seemed-far-fetched-in-1948.html
JackPoynter
Rob, this venue is inappropriate and much too constrained for a discussion of the causes of the American Civil War. I do, however, have a paper I wrote about ten years ago on the Cultural and Philosophical Bases of the War. It strikes me that it might broaden your horizons a little bit, even if you don't agree with all of it. (I don't know that I agree with all of it, it was an attempt to straighten out my own thought processes on the subject.)
If you will ask Frank to send me your email address, I'll send you a copy.
Rob123
jackPoynter.....Thank You. It has been awhile since I've had some good American History laid out in front of me (1/4 century of Retail, family, and college bills). Your refresher course is much appreciated. Kind of an aside and 'what if'......If the Irish Catholics had settled south of the mason dixon line, and the Irish Protestants north of the line, any differences in our culture you would like to speculate about? Irish Catholics did represent a large number of Union troops when they joined up in New York (during the Draft Riots) inorder to try to become accepted Americans......Just a thought.
rtr
JackPoynter, Great stuff there, I could spend a month in that area easy checking out the history. "I been to most of the battle fields and the Smithsonian but it takes time to take it all in".
Did you notice as soon as the liberals seen you might be sticking around pointing out common sense the attacks were immediately thrown at you.
Welcome aboard.
JackPoynter
Rob123,
It is what it is. I'm an old man and I can't transcribe Doctor Hackett's book for you, you'll just have to read it for yourself someday.
Basically, the argument goes like this: Four British cultures formed the founding basis for our country. There were other groups, but none of them were large enough or influential enough to have much of an effect out of their colonization areas. Each came from different generations, and from different parts of Britain, and when they got to North America the vast distances between each allowed them to evolve in isolation, as opposed to the British homeland in which they had to put up with each other and accomodate.
The four were:
1. Puritans to Mass Bay, 1629 - 1492. New England calls this "the long migration", it was motivated by their (rather ineffective) persecution by Bishop Laud and Charles I. Their culture is a self-consciously theocratic, closed-gate type of community, in which a letter from a Puritan minister is required for settlement; enemies of the state are banished, hung, or pressed to death with rocks. Their view of governance is rights given in relief of prior restraint - which means, no one has rights unless they are granted by the state. Their view of freedom is the right to associate; they like rules, they just want them to be their rules.
---
1642-1649 - The English Civil War, in which many New Englanders returned to England to fight on the side of Parliament. Laud is hung and Charles is beheaded, Cromwell puts England under a military dictatorship, which ends soon after Cromwell dies; England celebrates the end of Cromwell's reign, not its beginning.
...
2. Royalists to Virginia - 1642-1675 - When victorious Puritans begin to pesecute the defeated Royalists, Gov William Berkeley of Virginia invites British Aristocracy to Virginia, to "form a properly aristocratic government." Though never many in number, they form the rulling class of Virginia up to the Revolution, and some members are still in politics there. Their view of governance is caste-heirarchic: a place for everyone and everyone in their place. Responsibilities run down as well as up the chain; it is a simple continuance of British law in a new land. Their view of liberty is law-based; a man's home is his castle typifies them. Their view of administration is court based rather than person based; trials instead of judge directed rulings.
3. Quakers from the north midlands to Pennsylvania and the Delaware Valley - 1675-1725 - They were a radical sect in England, based on the usual Nomianism - they thought they owed allegiance only to God, and so refused to obey laws and pay taxes. They were centrist-theocratic, like the Puritans, but their ruling philosophy was the Golden Rule: whatever rights anybody had, everybody should have. In consequence, both prior colonizing cultures hated them as well as each other, shooting wars over boundaries erupted several times. They were ruled by a yearly council. During the Revolution, they declared themselves neutral, and as a consequence, were run out of the South after the Patriots won, and moved to the Northwest Territory mostly. The remnants in the South converted to be Baptists; this last is due to Phillips, "The Cousins' Wars."
4. Scots-Irish to the Backlands - 1717-1775 - When the border between England and Scotland was closed after the act of Union, the northern British-lowland Scots were no longer needed as a buffer area. They were variously bought out, taxed out, starved out, or burned out. An attempt to settle them in northern Ireland was made, where they formed the basis of the Ulster Irish population, the protestants whose descendants still from time to time war with the British and the southern Irish. After a generation or soi of being jerked around by the British, they began to form a stream migration to America. At around 250,000, they were by far the largest migration. Encouraged to move along by the previous colonists, they settled up and down the Appalachians from New Hampshire to Georgia. Having been a warrior culture for a thousand years minimum, they simply tossed out the Indians whereever they met them and settled in. Their view of governance was "lex talionis"; the power to keep was the power to hold; their view of liberty was natural - a man had all rights except those specifically excluded by a stronger power. Naturally all the older colonists despised them, as they had in Britain, as uncouth barbarians. That attitude persists to this day; they were the rednecks, so called because they wore red bandannas as a mark of Presbyterianism. For their full story, read "Born Fighting," by Senator James Webb of Virginia.
There's lots more to the book than the little bit I've posted, it's over a thousand pages of encyclopedic detail and analysis.
The point of this is that most of us simply don't read history; we have no idea of where we come from or why, or what our beginnings really mean to our present. The echoes from those beginnings still resonate, and form the four poles of our dynamic, multivariant society; the trouble starts when any one of those poles begin to dominate, as the heirs of puritans and quakers are, presently.
rtr
You know with robbie and Bronco working together this sure is fun.
Little robbie pointing out that it doesn't snow at minus 35 degrees and Bronco pointing out the glaciers in Glacier Park are receding "therefore we now know it is global cooling" that is the problem. "I sure would hate to be duck hunting with the two of you since you keep taking shots at one another" You both remind me of Cheney.
rtr
Broncortr, when you regard no authority as unimpeachable, when you accept no fact as such, when anything you prefer not to believe is automatically dismissed as a product of "bias," you impoverish intellect and render informed debate impossible. Leave us.
==================================
You really shouldn't be talking about your little buddy robbie like that since it was he that did NOT accept the Wikipedia ONLY when it was convienent for him.
You telling me to leave is like saying I must be doing my job well here.
rtr
Little robbie
for gGod's sake, try to get it correct once in a while. I pointed out how Wikipedia is people (any and all) defining a subject, instead of "expert"
========================
Same way you put it to trash my post was my point, Guess you don't like your errors of judgement pointed out, You liberals are kind of one way folks.
Your way or like Bronco stated "leave".
Pete
Rob...If I replaced Republic with government, would that have made a difference...although I think you know what I meant?
Pete
Rob...tried the archives but it looks like the transfer to the new web page wiped most comments. Not sure which editorial it would have been under either since subjects develop on here as we go.
Pete
Rob...Did I mistakening placed you with others on this...I remember a few months ago a debate on this question, and I'll have to go back into the archives and see who I was talking to. I apologize if I wrongly "lumped" you. Shouldn't be the Caffeine after two cups of Java?
Rob123
Oh, Pete: "...line of reasoning Rob, Bronco, et al would have to admit a judeo-christian influence in the basic principles of our Republic "....I see it all over the place. Some of it good, some of it not so good. What's your point? Caffiene headache?
Pete
Bronco the Quaker....has a nice ring to it. "when you regard no authority as unimpeachable, when you accept no fact as such, when anything you prefer not to believe is automatically dismissed as a product of "bias," you impoverish intellect and render informed debate impossible." I honestly couldn't think of a better application of this than your rigorous adherance to the cult of Obama and his leftist dogma...but nobody can claim you aren't loyal, right? ;-)
Pete
JackPoynter...Excellent point and the responses only strengthen your case. Of course you must understand that to accept your line of reasoning Rob, Bronco, et al would have to admit a judeo-christian influence in the basic principles of our Republic (for good, ill or both) and they have fought that fact tooth and nail in the past. I must add my kudos to Franks and welcome your contribution to the sight.
Rob123
** What happened to global warming? **
BBC climate correspondent Paul Hudson asks what on Earth happened to rising global temperatures.
< http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/8299079.stm >
Rob123
rtr: "You know what rob said a couple columns ago that Frank had was that Wikipedia articles was written by common people and the information contained in it was not to be trusted "....for gGod's sake, try to get it correct once in a while. I pointed out how Wikipedia is people (any and all) defining a subject, instead of "expert" opinions/definitions. One must keep that in mind when using it. That is what I said. I tire of quotes from Wikipedia from people who think they are quoting from Webster. It's different. And should be used with Eyes Wide Open. Try to get up to speed, bozo flame thrower.
Rob123
"Jack Poynter posts: "The northeastern culture was founded on a basis of theocratic government and strict central control...It is no accident that the heart of liberalism and progressivism is in the northeast" " Like Bronco, I too have a problem with that statement. Different Protestant Sects tended to colonize different areas, with varying degrees of both enlightenment and old world respect for authority (depending on if they left the old world for Political/Religious reasons or pure economics; plus the Culture of their homeland). The schism in the U.S. was over the 10th amendment and the Moral Right/Wrong concerning, primarily, Slavery (ie..slavery was absolutely the Heart of Southern Economics, and it's loss was a crushing financial blow). And this schism tested the strength of the 10th Amendment when confronted with Evil (one human owning another), and the ability of the Union of States (Feds) to survive. The South still holds the Tenth Amendment up to heighths that are poo-poo'd in the NorthEast, while the West has historically embraced Individual Rights even over the State (Population density is rapidly changing that notion out West, along with the devastating notion that Corporations are Individuals). Anyway, the implied theocracy of the average citizen existing under the Law of the Constitution is alive and well in some areas more than others, today. The South still reacts to home grown State Laws that the local Pastor likes, better than Federal Laws that may be identical, but didn't come from the local 'horses mouth'. Yet, I must add that after Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, whole Union Divisions put down their Rifles and walked home, not willing to fight and die for an idea so "silly" as Black and White equality. It's still a struggle, and messy. And with the rise of the internet, the power of the Media (ye old 4th Estate) is being challenged in new ways, as we all become little Editors-in-Chief. History will tell us if this "Information Bonanza" is good or bad or merely a Rise in Democracy/Disintigration of the Majority (51%) power of the 2 party system. Reality has become very grey. Of course, I am ready for at least a 6 party system with a maximum 2 month Pre-Election scramble. This winner take all two party system is creating way too many distortions in the economy for the sake of re-election instead of thoughtful debate over what's good for the country.
JackPoynter
Bronco, I didn't say that the northeast supports a theocratic form of government, I said it was founded on that basis. The theocratic component was lost long ago in a tide of human secularism; what remains today in their cultural descendants is a reflexive preference in favor of strong central government.
That particular strain in the American symphony runs deep, from 1620-something in the Mass Bay Colony, through the Revolution and the Constitutional Convention and its compromises accomodating the different cultures that settled our country, on through the death of Federalism following the war of 1812, and in the formation of the Republican party to push the progressive agenda through the American Civil War and Reconstruction, to Nixon's abandonment of progressivism in the Southern strategy, which gave free rein to the progressives in the Democratic Party coopting the Northern liberals left behind by the Republicans, which places us in our current situation.
That may look complicated, but it's not. If you can get hold of a copy of David Hackett Fischer's "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America," it's in there, and you'll get the detail behind the very abbreviated synopsis I gave in the last paragraph.
What does this have to with Anthropogenic Global Climate Change? It shows the cultural underpinning for the desire to "herd" and "follow" which gives the cohesion necessary for the blind stampede we're watching.
To turn your last post to rtr on its head, "when you regard the authorities I like as impeachable, when you will not accept blindly the facts I like, when anything you prefer not to believe flies in the face of my belief and bias, you form opinions which are anathema to my pre-conceived notions and you refuse to fall in line. Therefore, I will shun you, because you are not part of my group."
That statement makes about as much sense as yours to him.
But the really telling part is when you invoke the method of "hating out", or shunning, which is a feature of the heirs of the Quaker culture, along with the blind, unthinking, adherence to centralist dogma which caused them to lay down their arms in the middle of the French and Indian War, when they became "peaceful at any price, you being the one to pay the price."
Leave us, indeed.
Bronco
rtr, when you regard no authority as unimpeachable, when you accept no fact as such, when anything you prefer not to believe is automatically dismissed as a product of "bias," you impoverish intellect and render informed debate impossible. Leave us.
Bronco
Jack Poynter posts: "The northeastern culture was founded on a basis of theocratic government and strict central control...It is no accident that the heart of liberalism and progressivism is in the northeast" How can you say liberalism and progressivism support a theocratic form of government? Now, the conservatives would get behind a government ran by the church if it was their church, but liberals? Where could you have gotten such a silly idea? And Flame Boy, enough with the p3nis extensions for your avatar.
rtr
Hey Bronco and Banznd, How do you like my new Avatar since you hated my pistol so much?
Don't get to existed though because I am looking for a junkyard dog ripping the legs off a pot smoker for my next weeks Avatar.
JackPoynter
Well, I believe I will, hang around that is. I enjoy places where we can talk and have a difference of opinion without yelling and screaming.
I currently live in Kansas City, having been inserted here due to having spent 35 years of my forty year marriage on the east coast, various places, and my wife wanting to come home, it being her turn, you might say. She certainly did, say, that is.
I've never been to Montana, but I did remember why I typed Wyoming instead of Montana a few posts back: I have an old friend who lives near Yellowstone National; he wrote me a few years ago, and said, "Here it is 23 degrees below zero, there's 24 inches of snow on the ground, and the wind is blowing 25 miles an hour. Al Gore has promised me global warming, and I want my share now!"
RTR, I'm sorry whoever put that DDT down messed up, but that was an error from which the land will recover, sooner or later. But malaria has been estimated to have killed around half of the people who have ever lived on this planet, and up until around 50 years ago, that was about the average in Georgia. Malaria has put so much pressure on the human species that we have literally evolved to meet the challenge; sickle cell anemia in Africa, which confers immunity as long as only one parent has the gene, is an example.
rtr
To ousel1, You know what rob said a couple columns ago that Frank had was that Wikipedia articles was written by common people and the information contained in it was not to be trusted so I am surprised that an intellectual like your self would use such untrustworthy information.
rtr
So long as you young college kids get the main point of what I stated and don't think Al Gore or the Kenyan shoved a magnet in the ground at the north pole next to Santa's house you will do fine.
ousel1
rtr:
"First off Magnetic fields at he the north and south pole are caused by the earth rotation which in turn does create gravity in order to "KEEP YOU GROUNDED" ."
ahem, you might want to take a look at the Wikipedia articles on 'centrifigul force" and "dynamo theory". Thanks for a good laugh though.
rtr
Hey JackPoynter, I would like to second what Frank said, You have had some great information which I book marked the nhc.noaa.gov
I still have a difference of opinion on the DDT do to the food chain thing and my experience with seeing what damage it caused all the way through the food.
I spent quite a bit of time in Dallas TX and Clearwater FL and always enjoyed the culture there down there.
Hope ya stick around for a few more of Franks columns and I am sure you could add a lot.
Trust me the liberal left minority in NO WAY represents the culture of the Flathead Valley no matter how much they want everyone to believe they do and you would be welcome here any time. "It is just like everywhere else liberal left policy is to make as much noise as possible and everyone will be forced to listen to you" or they think that anyway.
Bighorn0216
Thanks for the reply, Frank, and I did appreciate the many links you posted. I'm very hungry for information, and I'm not particularly choosy in the first instance -- I know I can do my own filtering, but I never dismiss any source merely because of its political, economical or social philosophy. A nephew recently posted (elsewhere), "How can someone make up his mind if there's nothing in it?" So I try to make sure I've listened to every reasonable perspective.
There are contributors here who are telling us how things have been for the past millennia, but I myself wasn't around then and don't have access to those records. I had thought a couple of years ago to start making plans to see the snows of Kilimanjaro, but realized that before I could put it together--you need to save up a LOT of vacation days--the snows would be gone. And my knees and coronary plumbing aren't up to it, anyway.
At the same time, I'm not seeing coastal cities inundated, as predicted. Yes, they keep moving the lighthouses back from the shore on Cape Cod--and Cape Cod will, we're told, be gone in 300 years--but that's just ocean currents and erosion. It's a powerful force. All the money in Boston can't stop it.
Isn't it a loser, anyway? Does anyone think China and India--industrial potentials far greater than anything the U.S. has ever conceived--will ever say, whoa, we need to keep this clean for future generations, so let's slow the growth of our country's economy? Not going to happen. What good is 10% global participation in cap-and-trade, as good as an idea as it is?
It's rough, that we don't know who to trust, but it's fantastic that all available knowledge is accessible to those who will seek it out (and sift it from the chaff.) Still, the best and the brightest interpret the data differently.
It will be too bad for all of us if scientific models are shaped and stifled by mere politics. I'm ready to accept proof, whatever it proves. I'm losing all patience with scientific "opinion," based on which party is in power.
JackPoynter
Thank you, Frank. I've done a lot of technical writing, lucidity is a must in that arena. As far as thoughtful goes, well, others judge me on that.
On the lady's desire to leave the media out of the loop, she is, of course, wanting to control the discussion. Pelosi said a while back, "The time for discussion is over." I'm sure she wishes it was, at any rate.
We're not big on being controlled in the south, and there are sound and identifiable reasons for that. The northeastern culture was founded on a basis of theocratic government and strict central control, and there are sound and identifiable reasons for that also.
It is no accident that the heart of liberalism and progressivism is in the northeast; and it is also no accident that the heart of (old style) conservatism is in the south.
You all out here in the big sky country have the room for independence of culture and spirit; some of you appear to be using it.
I appreciate the discussion.
rtr
Hans12
rtr:".....It think it is called an addmision of fraud...." Your so gulliable.
===============
I don't know what else you would call it when it is a liberal loon from some "Whacked out Global Warming" organization that he would not admit to belonging to and had called for a press conference fraudulently saying he represented the Chamber of Commerce and then gets caught at it..
Possibly you can put a better description on it for me..?
Editor
Hi Jack: First of all, welcome to the discussion. I appreciate your very lucid argumentation and thoughtful discourse.
As for the lady's thought that the media is not qualified to report on global warming, wec an add that to the list of things the media is not qualified to report on, starting with balloon boys and working our way down the list to include government, health care, etc.
The problem, as Churchill said about democracy, is that the media reporting on these matters is better than the alternative. Can you imagine if Al Gore got to run his own media empire on top of his money empire? No doubt he would have a Pulitzer to add to his list of prizes.
Hans12
rtr:".....It think it is called an addmision of fraud...." Your so gulliable.
JackPoynter
In that little piece I wrote on hurricanes, the right url for the NOAA website is www.nhc.noaa.gov. On the satellite page, which is clickable from the site given, there is a graphic chart which gives sea surface temperatures daily. Also from that page is a link to a SST page, which gives daily charts, a weekly average, and an SST anomaly chart which gives differences relative to a long-term average.
This year, temps around the world have been higher than average, and at times lower than average, as one might expect. The farther north one goes, the greater the anomalies become.
If you're the kind of person who enjoys watching train wrecks, you can also watch the big storms world wide, with no more than a half-hour delay, from the satellite page.
And on the main page are forecasts of path and intensity for any active storm, and an overview of the Atlantic and the Pacific, updated at (I think) 4 hour intervals. Maybe 6 hour intervals.
rtr
Sam Stein
stein@huffingtonpost.com | HuffPost Reporting
Become a Fan Get Email Alerts from this Reporter
Yes Men Pull Off Chamber Of Commerce Hoax On Climate Change
Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/19/chamber-of-commerce-hoax_n_326069.html
Fresh off the press:
It doesn’t get any better than this, When it comes from your very own Huffington News. It think it is called an addmision of fraud....
JackPoynter
OK, this is interesting. Frank, as a member of the media, how do you feel about this piece?
http://www.editorsweblog.org/newsrooms_and_journalism/2009/03/reporting_on_climate_change_should_not_b.php
This lady thinks global climate change reporting is too important to be left to the media.
rtr
The New Zealand Climate Science Coalition:
2008's 10 FAILED WARMING PREDICTIONS
Posted 22 December 2008
"Global warming preachers have had a shocking 2008. So many of their predictions this year went splat. Here’s their problem: they’ve been scaring us for so long that it’s now possible to check if things are turning out as hot as they warned. And good news! I bring you Christmas cheer - the top 10 warming predictions to hit the wall this year. Read, so you can end 2008 with optimism, knowing this Christmas won’t be the last for you, the planet or even the polar bears." - Andrew Bolt, Herald-Sun, Melbourne.
http://nzclimatescience.net/index.php
The only thing I see here that is "Global" is the consensus that Al Gore, Obama and their Ilk are considered a Fraud and Hoax worldwide.
rtr
sensible, I must have missed that too.
Was it the Obama Cap and Trade Tax you were talking about " failings of your ideology " with Obama trying to use that in order to TAX the middle class and lower class in a decietful way using the Global Warming Hoax in order to get his TAX and STEAL programs implemented. "just a question"?
sensible
Pete: the only times you don't have fingers in your ears is when you're talking. hence, i cupped my hands and slowly reminded you of the failings of your ideology and its costs to america..............next time i'll space it out so you get it. S O Y O U G E T I T ....
rtr
Latest Science Debunks Global Warming Hysteria
by Patrick J. Michaels
Patrick J. Michaels, a professor of environmental science at the University of Virginia, is a senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute.
Carbon dioxide is increasing in the atmosphere at a rate below that of most climate-change scenarios because it is being increasingly captured by growing vegetation. The second most important human greenhouse enhancer -- methane -- is not likely to increase appreciably in the next 100 years. And perhaps most important, the direct warming effect of carbon dioxide was overestimated. Even global warming alarmists in the scientific establishment now say that the Kyoto Protocol will have no discernible impact on global climate.
rtr
Hans12, I do want to apoligize to you since you are by far my Supirior,, Myself I always found there was something new to learn in every thing I did.
You on the other hand have reached the top and know it all. "I bow to you".
rtr
I guess "Remember you are posting to a blog and have figured out how to insult people" means ?
Rob123
Thanks, Hans.....I thought I was going to have to start with the turning over of the money changers tables on the steps of the temple, which led to the destruction of the temple with the simultaneous rise of the coliseum in rome.....a simple case of M2 not supporting the bond market so sports teams had to wage war and pillage. It so much different now. And warmer too!
rtr
Pete
Ski season must be close...another Hans sighting.
==============
I'm sure Gretel is not far behind.
Hans12
I guess "Rememeber I'm a Wall Street capitalist and I watch and listen to the stock channels" means ?
rtr
Hans12, I just looked it up and the acronym M2 would have come from an economics class, I would like to know how many college educated economics students are making money today..."Get my drift smart guy"
You know I could put out a ton of data networking acronyms but the fact that you would only understand half of them wouldn’t mean you didn’t know how to use the internet or your PC, Or would it.?
rtr
Hans12, ." Retired Stock Broker, eh?
==============
I never said I was a retired stock broker but thanks for the information and I will look into it.
Pete
Ski season must be close...another Hans sighting.
Hans12
"M2: Equals M1 + savings deposits, time deposits less than $100,000 and money market deposit accounts for individuals. M2 represents money and "close substitutes" for money.[13] M2 is a broader classification of money than M1. Economists use M2 when looking to quantify the amount of money in circulation and trying to explain different economic monetary conditions. M2 is a key economic indicator used to forecast inflation." Retired Stock Broker, eh?
rtr
rob 12/21/12 & M2.
I know 12/21/12 Is when the Aztec calendar stops and will be the election of a new and improved president but I don't know what M2 is, Please enlighten me?
JackPoynter
Nobody knows what gravity is, we just know that it exists and how to measure it. The same is true for many other concepts.
Scientists are very, very, good at explaining after the fact; they are, in general, very, very bad at predictions in other than very simple systems, because most events are contingent on other events.
Take hurricanes, for instance: back when folks were talking about global warming producing more hurricanes, and more intense hurricanes. But even when the sea surface temperatures were higher, say, for instance in 2005, every tropical wave off the Cape Verde islands didn't produce so much as a tropical depression, much less a hurricane.
It happens during those years around 2005 I was writing a (I think today we'd call it a blog) for a history site to which I belonged; and the subject was hurricanes, because hurricanes produce history, big time. At the same time I was trying to educate myself as to what goes on in them and what causes them. So every day, I'd review the NOAA website (www.nhc.noaa.com) which monitors hurricanes, and post whatever information was appropriate on the history site.
Boy, did I pick the right time to do that. At times there were three or four or five hurricanes lined up in the hurricane conveyor belt from Cape Verde, Africa to the Caribbean. There were several instances of hurricanes following so closely on another's heels that the first destroyed the second, by using up the heat content of the water across which the second had to pass.
So, to make a long story at least a little shorter, here's what it takes to form a tropical storm:
1. Sea surface temperatures above 27 degrees are absolutely required. That supplies the energy for the for the whirling motion of the storm.
2. There has to be sufficient moisture in the air. This can be suppressed by Saharan dust, produced by winds in the Saharan desert.
3. Steady state air motion is required. Some storms form in the great cauldron of the Gulf of Mexico, when wind conditions are low. The big ones form from the great storms exiting Africa at Cape Verde in the Inter-Tropic Convergence Zone, where northern hemisphere weather meets southern hemisphere weather. In the region of the ITCZ, the rotation of the Earth produces coriolis forces, which move east to west, generally at, say, 8-15 knots. Because the air flow is generally in the same direction, tropical storms can form in it, and travel to the Caribbean in those winds.
If sea surface temps are below 27 degrees centigrade, storms cannot form. If opposing winds (known as wind shear) blow them apart, they either cannot form or will stay small. If the atmosphere is too dry in their vicinity, they will not form or will stay small.
So, tropical storm formation (hurricanes are big ones) is contingent on sea surface temps AND on steady state meteoroligical conditions, AND on air moisture.
This year, sea suface temps in the hurricane conveyor belt are down. AND meteorological conditions are such in the ITCZ are such that cross winds blow incipient storms apart, for the most part. AND Saharan dust is prevalent.
As a consequence, the folks at NOAA had to downgrade their prediction for the year by about half, in the Atlantic Basin.
It is worth noting, though, that the Pacific, which operates on a different temperature cycle than the Atlantic, has been producing typhoon after typhoon.
So, what do we learn from all this? We really can't predict weather conditions, even on a hemispheric scale, even six months into the future. The hotter it gets, the more chaotic will be meteorolgical conditions, which will tend to suppress big storms. And talking about global averages is a loser; weather is more localized than that. But on the other hand, as temperatures become cooler, tropical storms definitely will not be forming.
If it gets that cool that far south, which I really can't see happening. It never has, before, by all the evidence.
rtr
Here is the deal, I have it all figured out.
They find fossils of ocean plants and animals over the entire surface of the planet. "We all agree on that right" Even you would have to agree to that right sensible "WE".
Once upon a time a long time ago there were stone age people “Fred Flintstone, his wife and kids and Barney his family and the Wall Street tycoon boss”
We had the rock quarry tycoon that was a capitalist on wall street and
between the dust from the rock quarry and the peddle cars the earth went into total darkness do to global warming and flipped over "From lack of gravity" and humans disappeared.
Then the Jetsons came flying in from another planet to take over the earth since it had become so beautiful after the humans had destroyed themselves centuries prior to that.
But again the Big bosses building wall street in the sky and the Jetsons flying around the earth caused it to warm up and go into a state of global warming and once again it flipped over "From lack or gravity" and the human race was wiped out.
Now “WE” have rtr, Pete, JackPoynter, Editor, steve1953, Frank Lansner, Xcalifornian, and mooseberryinn scr*wing up the planet again BUT this time around we have Bronco, rob, sensible Bighorn flatheadres and benznd that are going to save us from are selves. "I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER NOW".
Rob123
I didn't say anything about temperature, just like you didn't say what gravity is. I'm sure more people will talk about it's 'pull' after 12/21/12. Until then, dream on and watch out for M2. Way to big.
Pete
I must say that when I read Rob and Bronco's apocalyptic prognostications of doom Frank's Noah analogy seems spot on along with JackPoynters religious/emotional assertion. This eco-theology has been well documented, but now we get a front seat at a prophecy and divination meeting, where God of Global Warming is nature, the earth is heaven, and the devil is mankind.
rtr
If it flys away, our orbit turns into a tumble......Not Good.....And please explain to me the difference between gravity and magnetic fields?
========
I will respond just to humor you, First off Magnetic fields at he the north and south pole are caused by the earth rotation which in turn does create gravity in order to "KEEP YOU GROUNDED" .
The gravitational pull from the moon is what causes the oceans to have currents and tides and the tempature of the earth has nothing to do with that, The tempature may change the tempature with in those currents so I can vacation and catch Bonita, Yellow tail and the Bluefin tuna closer in to shore but that is the extent of it..
You would have to talk to my wife about Fox, Rush and Beck since i never listen to them or watch them.
Rememeber I'm a Wall Street capitalist and I watch and listen to the stock channels and even listen to your RICH socialist leaders to see which way they may be manipulating the stock direction to go next since they are in power right now and trying to make money as fast as they can off the global warming hoax.
Rob123
rtr: off topic, but....".....magnetic fields have to do with gravity and the pull of the moon." The Moon is slowly slipping from our gravitational pull. It is only 1/2 as large when viewed today vs. 1 billion years ago. If it flys away, our orbit turns into a tumble......Not Good.....And please explain to me the difference between gravity and magnetic fields? I have a hard time grasping what gravity actually is. However, I do know how to measure it. And in a weakened state, when all those Northern Lights start dancing around your feet, you might want to live inside a Lead House. And your T.V. would lose all ability to receive signals from the Right spectrum (Fox, Rush, Beck) and the Left spectrum (various naked channels). It would be rough, with your early retirement and all, finding something to do all day.
rtr
Bronco, There is only a half truth in what you posted about Glacier Park.
The Glaciers have grown and shrunk many times over the centuries.
Let me point to what "rob" stated which is true, It does not snow at -35 degrees therefore it could be concluded that the Glaciers in the park are receding do to global cooling and not global warming.
Unlike -35 degrees does freeze ice and is why the Antarctic ice is expanding even though sensible thinks ice freezes in the oven I can tell you for sure it doesn’t.
Pete
Bronco...looks like history ain't the only thing repeating itself... :-) Don't you just love the delay on here that tricks you into thinking your latest opus has flow away to the ether...and just when you think all is lost...up it pops...all fifty copies. I had a printer like that once...killed a forest before I finally killed it.
Pete
Sensible...I see it didn't take long for you to bust out into all capital letters. We get that you're passionate about your positions and that's okay...but your lyrics sure get lost when your amp starts to distort. Take a hint from your compadre Rob, I might only agree with him a small percentage of the time, but he can play a mean acoustic and when he does plug in you know its genuine and usually appropriate to the moment. If that's not possible, then at least try building up to the crescendo, its more believable and gives us time to put our fingers in our ears.
Bronco
I found a can of delusion this morning. I pulled back the lid and there was Glacier National Park but there were only two small glaciers left. Some guy was there pointing a chrome-barreled pistol at me telling me to shut the lid or all the heat would get out and people would make money. I looked farther and saw the ice caps had melted quite a bit. I saw that the sea level was raised by 2.9 feet, beaches were gone, billions of people displaced, the waters of the northern Pacific too warm to sustain but 10% of its former production. With no seafood to feed the billions, people turned to growing more vegetables in the H2O rich environment. Hundred-year storms occur every four years now, major hurricanes occur nearly every two months. Coastal cities have abandoned their transportation systems due to flooding. Cattle and pig production rises as do their contributing pollutants. Nitrates contaminate ground water, spontaneous abortions triple and 'blue baby syndrome' kills a third of infants. Animal waste causes algae to die and many species of edible fish become extinct. It's too much; I shut the lid to the sound of someone shouting "LIBERAL LOON!" So I sit back this morning and take a look at all the noise here in this post. While Rome burned Nero fiddled: history does repeat itself. We can spend our energy pointing fingers at who is to blame, humans or nature, but that won't accomplish anything. Or we can adapt, evolve, and hopefully some of us are still around in a couple of hundred years.
Bronco
I found a can of delusion this morning. I pulled back the lid and there was Glacier National Park but there were only two small glaciers left. Some guy was there pointing a chrome-barreled pistol at me telling me to shut the lid or all the heat would get out and people would make money. I looked farther and saw the ice caps had melted quite a bit. I saw that the sea level was raised by 2.9 feet, beaches were gone, billions of people displaced, the waters of the northern Pacific too warm to sustain but 10% of its former production. With no seafood to feed the billions, people turned to growing more vegetables in the H2O rich environment. Hundred-year storms occur every four years now, major hurricanes occur nearly every two months. Coastal cities have abandoned their transportation systems due to flooding. Cattle and pig production rises as do their contributing pollutants. Nitrates contaminate ground water, spontaneous abortions triple and 'blue baby syndrome' kills a third of infants. Animal waste causes algae to die and many species of edible fish become extinct. It's too much; I shut the lid to the sound of someone shouting "LIBERAL LOON!" So I sit back this morning and take a look at all the noise here in this post. While Rome burned Nero fiddled: history does repeat itself. We can spend our energy pointing fingers at who is to blame, humans or nature, but that won't accomplish anything. Or we can adapt, evolve, and hopefully some of us are still around in a couple of hundred years.
Bronco
I found a can of delusion this morning. I pulled back the lid and there was Glacier National Park but there were only two small glaciers left. Some guy was there pointing a chrome-barreled pistol at me telling me to shut the lid or all the heat would get out and people would make money. I looked farther and saw the ice caps had melted quite a bit. I saw that the sea level was raised by 2.9 feet, beaches were gone, billions of people displaced, the waters of the northern Pacific too warm to sustain but 10% of its former production. With no seafood to feed the billions, people turned to growing more vegetables in the H2O rich environment. Hundred-year storms occur every four years now, major hurricanes occur nearly every two months. Coastal cities have abandoned their transportation systems due to flooding. Cattle and pig production rises as do their contributing pollutants. Nitrates contaminate ground water, spontaneous abortions triple and 'blue baby syndrome' kills a third of infants. Animal waste causes algae to die and many species of edible fish become extinct. It's too much; I shut the lid to the sound of someone shouting "LIBERAL LOON!" So I sit back this morning and take a look at all the noise here in this post. While Rome burned Nero fiddled: history does repeat itself. We can spend our energy pointing fingers at who is to blame, humans or nature, but that won't accomplish anything. Or we can adapt, evolve, and hopefully some of us are still around in a couple of hundred years.
Bronco
I found a can of delusion this morning. I pulled back the lid and there was Glacier National Park but there were only two small glaciers left. Some guy was there pointing a chrome-barreled pistol at me telling me to shut the lid or all the heat would get out and people would make money. I looked farther and saw the ice caps had melted quite a bit. I saw that the sea level was raised by 2.9 feet, beaches were gone, billions of people displaced, the waters of the northern Pacific too warm to sustain but 10% of its former production. With no seafood to feed the billions, people turned to growing more vegetables in the H2O rich environment. Hundred-year storms occur every four years now, major hurricanes occur nearly every two months. Coastal cities have abandoned their transportation systems due to flooding. Cattle and pig production rises as do their contributing pollutants. Nitrates contaminate ground water, spontaneous abortions triple and 'blue baby syndrome' kills a third of infants. Animal waste causes algae to die and many species of edible fish become extinct. It's too much; I shut the lid to the sound of someone shouting "LIBERAL LOON!" So I sit back this morning and take a look at all the noise here in this post. While Rome burned Nero fiddled: history does repeat itself. We can spend our energy pointing fingers at who is to blame, humans or nature, but that won't accomplish anything. Or we can adapt, evolve, and hopefully some of us are still around in a couple of hundred years.
rtr
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2007/09/05/antarctica-warming-cooling-or-both/
Incredibly, if you are interested in Antarctica temperature trends from the present back to 1982, the region has cooled. If you go from present back to 1966, the region has cooled. Like it or not, over the past four decades, and during the time of the greatest build-up of greenhouse gases, Antarctica has been cooling!
Reference:
Chapman, W.L. and J.E. Walsh. 2007. A Synthesis of Antarctic Temperatures. Journal of Climate, 20, 4096-4117.
JackPoynter
Bless your heart, sensible, it ain't what you say, it's the way how you say it that marks your position as spiritual / emotional.
You have the choice to think rationally and respond rationally without all the heat.
I promise you, more people will pay attention to what you say.
rtr
Rob, I had already posted the answer to that question which pointed out that sensible was just blowing smoke but here it is again for your viewing pleasure.
It should be noted that the Antarctic is presently cooling (and has been for several years) and sea ice extent is expanding.
Rob123
rtr: "I am going to use one of your suggestions though and turn my oven into an ice maker now that you have educated me and told me heat creates ice." What place on Earth is drier than the Sahara Desert? When is the last time you were in a snow storm at -35F? The wind may blow some by, but it ain't snowing, per se. So what would be your logical answer?
rtr
sensib;e, If I might be so bold as to ask since you are into the human waste thing, Where do you take a cr*p at and where does it end up.
rtr
You know I am not a bible thumper but one thing it does state that is so very true is that everyone needs something to believe in, The rich left just like the communists have "Capitalized on it" and done everything they can to do away with any religious enviroment knowing full well that is how they could replace the thought of there being a god and higher power with their own political religion with their own mis-information and the sheep would follow blindly.
sensible
Jack Poynter: what do you call polluting? i remember "dead lakes", "flaming rivers," and acid rain. to me, that's pis$ing in your pool..................call it what you want. it's disgusting that people defend this, ideologically blinded to the point that they defend polluting.............that is a tiny little box.
rtr
You know what the funnest part of all these global warmers is that it is the very same people they complain about Wall Street and capitalism that are using global warming to make a fortune on Wall Street that they say they hate so much.
I have to give the RICH leadership of the left credit for being able to blind their own sheep in such a manner.
Rob123
JackPoynter: "I started off my first post here talking about millenial fervor and its relation to the anthropogenic ......" I know what you mean.....In graduate school I went to a Greatfull Dead concert with normal waking consciousness inorder to fill my research paper with some statistics and observations, and was overcome with how out of tune they were. After writing down my observations, I joined in and soon was dancing with the crowd. Amazing how subjective the world is?
rtr
Rob, I think it should be pointed out that half of what you posted has nothing to do with global warming or cooling. Ocean currents and magnetic fields have to do with gravity and the pull of the moon.
As for 1 to 1 ½ degree increase you make it sound like we would be living in h*ll on earth which is far from the truth.
Growing seasons would be longer, “less famine”, High Co2 levels, “Better plant growth less famine” there would be NO deserts created, Ocean swallowing up or any other such scary thing You or the likes of the Nobel prize winners have proposed..
Sensible states no ideas, no solutions, no responsibility for anything.
You mean no ideas to problems the left has created in YOUR mind but do not really exist in the real world…….?
I am going to use one of your suggestions though and turn my oven into an ice maker now that you have educated me and told me heat creates ice.
Rob123
Frank: "You are right, Rob."..... "This is one more nail in the coffin of global warming." Don't get too complacent, I'm not through with you yet! (-: Inorder to lower the core temperature of Urban locales as a means of acknowledging exCal's "Balance of Payments" deficit and use less energy to cool the sweaty Urban masses, would a tax credit be permissable for business and home owners to fix their roofs and reflect the Sun back and/or capture the excess CO2? Or should the Urban Masses just hitch hike over to Pete's house and go swimming in Flathead Lake and eat out of his garden?
JackPoynter
I started off my first post here talking about millenial fervor and its relation to the anthropogenic global warming movement. I got us off on DDT because it illustrated the unreasonable emphasis on the protection of nature as opposed to the protection of human beings.
One of the hallmarks of a spiritual movement is the fervor of its adherents. "Hearken unto me, O Israel," they say, "thou livest in a den of iniquity, and surely the Lord shall smight thee."
Personal attacks using peforative terms define a spiritual movement. Certainly frustration is mounting on both sides in the anthropogenic climate change debate, and statements like "If you'll only shut up for a minute, I'll show you where you're wrong!" abound from both sides. But unreasonable emotion, it seems to me, is much more prevalent from the pro-ACG people than the anti-ACG-people.
In the posts in this thread, the pro-ACG posters use terms like deniers, "pissing in your own pool," accusations of not knowing what an agenda is, "tiny little ignorant right-wing box..." My intention is not to beat anyone up, but to give an idea of the different emotional levels from each side, In cases of millenial fervor, the followers of the great ideal are always emotional, that's why it's called 'fervor.'
Why is this important? It gives observors a gauge of the direction from which the several debators come with their comments. A reasoned approach, in a level-headed debate, simply does not require that sort of shrillness.
In every debate to which I have listened, the audience (I'm thinking particularly of one that NPR staged) begins pro-AGW by a large margin, then listens to the debate. Typical pro-AGW debater says, "No one will listen to us because industry hates us," typical anti-AGW debater says, "Here are some facts," pro-AGW responds, "you all hate us." At the end of the debate, the audience has switched to anti-AGW, or "contrarian", as someone says on this blog.
To a historian, the similarity of all these events is striking: The Millerite crisis of the 1840's (in which the coming of Christ was foretold,) the Y2K meltdown (which never was going to happen, I was there,) the dot.com investment bubble, the Comet Kahoutek hysteria (small, but nevertheless interesting,) the Jim Jones massacre in Africa (again small, but those people believed strongly,) various religious medieval movements (one made famous by Umberto Eco in "The Name of the Rose,") the hippy movement of the 1960's and 1970's, and most recently, Anthropocentric Climate Change.
To an uncommitted lay observer, the difference in fervor of each side is striking. That, more than anything else, will end this debate, for good or ill.
Editor
You are right, Rob. There is a reason why it is hotter in cities today than suburbs. It is the same reason why it is hotter today in those cities than it was 100 years ago. The increased asphalt and concrete as a result of urbanization results in a differential in heat retention and reflection that can easily account for the 4 or 5 degree increase you reference.
This same effect also accounts for the increase in temperatures over the past 100 years, as many of the heat readings that prove "global" warming have been shown to be located in those urban environments.
Thus global warming could really be an artifact caused by the urban-centric nature of mankind's population. Naturally most weather sensors are placed in populated areas. This is one more nail in the coffin of global warming.
sensible
it's called managing change, deniers. managing change. if ocean levels rise, it affects billions, not millions. if ocean currents cool or warm, it affects vast cropland use. if snow patterns change in the mountains, downstream water (crops and drinking water)is affected..............the list goes on. and this is whether climate change is man-made or not!! do these potential outcomes require action, or should we we just wait and see? pete? you seem to know all? wait and see, pete? no "pre-emptive war" on climate change?
sensible
i repeat to the contrarians:
just keep pis$ing in your own pool.....................
and when the particulant laden air you breath and excremant laden water you drink reaches a tipping point, will you then have "tea parties" and blame the environmentalists?
sensible
Pete: "Benznd, Bronco, Rob, Sensible, FutureResident, are the perfect "canaries in the mine" when it comes to the lefts agenda..........."
i'm surprised you know what an agenda is. did fox news tell you what it is? you're inability to look outside your tiny little ignorant right wing box of no ideas is the real problem. contrarianism is pete's cry....................no ideas, no solutions, no responsibility for anything. typical ideologically constipated right winger filled with vitriolic hatred. we tried your agenda, pete. IT FAILED. BORROWED TAX CUTS FAILED TO CREATE JOBS. THE WAS NO WMD. LESS GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT ALLOWED WALL STREET TO STEAL US BLIND. YOUR AGENDA FAILED. PETE. IT FAILED MISERABLY.................so let's do it all over again. get real.
Rob123
"... leaky rowboat of man-made Global Warming...." Now Pete, where did I say anything about Man Made "global" warming? However, take a small city like Spokane or a big City like New York, and if you go a little ways outside the City Limits on a hot day, the temperature drops 4 or 5 or more degrees. There are reasons for that, beyond simple elevation.
Rob123
And no one has mentioned the weakening of the Earth's Magnetic Field as of late. Certainly not the first time, according to geologists. However, with 12/21/12 fast approaching, and the alienment of the Sun and Planets of our Solar System as we pass through the Center of our little Galaxy, one wonders what this will do to our Plate Tectonics and the possible reversal of our Magnetic Field (again, certainly not the first time). Hopefully nothing much. But we will see, huh. Having friends in Nebraska, I worry about Yellowstone; and my friends in Oregon, I worry about their off-shore Cascadia plate movement. And California's movement toward Vancouver Island could cause all types of repercussions. Global Warming could become a ho-hum issue.
Pete
Of course, there will be those that won't abandon the leaky rowboat of man-made Global Warming even when they find themselves waist-deep in evidence...sail on Captain Rob.
Rob123
rtr: "Even if temps did go up 1 to 1 1/2 degree is would be a good thing and not a bad thing." I don't want to worry you, but at what temperature does the Gulf Stream change it's direction and what does this mean for the NE American and Northern European Continental Climate debate? Something to think about, just in case. And another thing to worry about: If Ocean Temperatures warm up a few degrees, large amounts of Methane trapped on the Ocean Floor by the Pressure of the Ocean at Current Temperatures will begin to pop to the surface.....oh, and algae blooms that just grow and grow, fed by rising temperatures and phosphates from our sparkiling clean undies and socks. The mere act of turning all our Black Asphalt into a Reflective White would help. Along with either White Roofs or Green CO2 absorbing plants on our roofs. Simple fixes that are insanely political for some numbskull reason.
Pete
Alleged man-made Global warming has been the lefts most effective tool in promoting its social agenda and as such it will be protected vociferously even in the face of contradictory evidence. Thus you get cooling and more ice being blamed on global warming and Gore's nonsensical reply to the Polar Bear population question posed by Phelim McAleen that I referenced earlier. I also warned that the left will undoubtedly change flagships to another made-made disaster when the global warming theory finally becomes ridiculously untenable and I wasn't disappointed when I saw Benznd's endeavor to somehow link global warming to the pro-life movement. I believe you will soon see the left attempt to resurrect the old over-population boogeyman and use it as their newest Millerite weapon of mass coercion. Benznd, Bronco, Rob, Sensible, FutureResident, are the perfect "canaries in the mine" when it comes to the lefts agenda, so pay attention... the cause celeb may shift but the underlying ideology remains the same...more and more power to the government.
steve1953
THIS IS THE SUN NOW
http://umbra.nascom.nasa.gov/images/latest_eit_304.gif
THIS IS THE SUN IN 1997
http://umbra.nascom.nasa.gov/eit/images/eit_19971207_0700_ratio.gif
Any questions why it was so hot in 1998?
steve1953
THIS IS THE SUN NOW
http://umbra.nascom.nasa.gov/images/latest_eit_304.gif
THIS IS THE SUN IN 1997
http://umbra.nascom.nasa.gov/eit/images/eit_19971207_0700_ratio.gif
Any questions why it was so hot in 1998?
Frank Lansner
@FutureResident
" studies the Arctic and has published papers on the accelerated melting in Greenland " Checkout official temperature graphs for greenland. Fact is that the warm period in the 1925-45 was at least as warm as now and lasted much longer than we have seen so far today. The warmth is not more harmfull now than it was before explosion in CO2 outlet after 1950.
"his cherry picked and short term analysis is bunk." No, check out www.co2.science and you will see that based on over 200 peer reviewed studies, only a tiny minority of studies supports the IPCC idea of a cold MWP for example. If you want a cold MWP, THEN you have to cherry pick big time as IPCC does.
" They want to latch on to the 5% dissenter viewpoint as Frank has " Checkout Rasmussen Reports, you will find that for over a year, the belief that Humans are causing the global warming is a minority in the US, not vice versa.
So far, ALL the scientists I have talked to that are pro-IPCC cannot defend their belief other that "IPCC ssays". And thats just not good enough. If IPCC has some goos arguments, its about time they puplish them "Consensus" as an argument counts zero.
FutureResident
Bimmer - my physical oceanographer brother has plenty to say, but the deny-ers don't care to hear it. They want to latch on to the 5% dissenter viewpoint as Frank has. Without going in to great length rebutting Frank's sources, I'll just say some quick things. Lord Monckton is a journalist, not a scientist, and his cherry picked and short term analysis is bunk. Marco Tedesco and Andrew Monaghan did not deny global warming at all. Marco, in fact, also studies the Arctic and has published papers on the accelerated melting in Greenland. The point of Antarctica ice mass growing in 2008 is not a rallying point if you understand the bigger picture, its an anomaly based on seriously complex science, that has nothing to do with the general warming trend. If it makes you feel better, Frank, to latch on to false premises or the 5% dissenters, so be it. But, it not comparing apples with apples. I'm sure there were at least 5% of the scientific community that doubted the splitting of atoms could create an unfathomable nuclear explosion, but we all know how that turned out. Consensus of this magnitude is nearly unprecedented in the scientific community as they are skeptics by nature. My brother is one of the most ethical people I know. He has devoted his life to science and cares nothing for material things. He has met most of the major players discussed in these matters (Lindtzen, Hanson et al). In his mind as with the majority (to put it lightly) of the scientific community, the question is not whether we are contributing to climate change, its a debate over the final outcome. In other words, our world will go through some massive changes and changes of that magnitude become difficult to model. For the record, I don't agree with the cap and trade approach, but I agree with reducing pollution with aggressive policy for our health if nothing else. The Clean Water / Clean Air acts, weaknesses aside, were a good thing for our country. Banning CFCs was also. Just ask New Zealanders about the ozone hole and how they have to be extra cautious about the sun.
Editor
Flathead Frank: I know you don't like me, but I would encourage you to reread the column. I did not say ALL science that points to global warming is fake. What I said is that global-warming proponents should not "hype the argument up with fake science." I then provided a blatant example of this. This "country editor" doesn't make stuff up, and I just expect the same from our Nobel-Prize winning scientists.
rtr
Global Warming Fraud
The question was raised as to how Cap and Trade tax works so here are the facts.
1.The government taxes the energy companies for using fossil fuel…MAJOR TAX.
A. This will be passed on to the consumer “You and Me”
2.The government then dictates the companies have to get rid of Co2 gas which is extremely expensive.
A.This will be passed on to the consumer “You and Me”
3.There will have to be new companies created and done by the same companies “Energy companies” to store the Co2.
A.This Co2 will be put into the ground and the energy companies that pasted the Cap and Trade tax and the cost of removal of the Co2 off to You and Me will then be making money storing the Co2 that our plants need in order to make clean air for us to breath.
Please read this and give it some serious thought and if you think for one second I am wrong do the research for yourself…”It is nothing but a fraud that will make the government and large corporations money and they will be getting it from You and Me”…..PLEASE
rtr
sensible
rtr: the basic problem is that we are fouling our own nest............
================
I have no problem with that statement and I agree with you that "WE" all need to do are part for clean water and air.
What I have a problem with is the likes of Al Gore using global warming to make a fortune and the Kenyan using it for decietful tactics to add more taxes that only end up being paid for by the middle class and lower class that will do nothing to clean the aur or make sure our water stays clean. "Cap and Tax is a fraud" plain and simple.
It is the lies and deciet that is the problem...!!!!!!!!
sensible
rtr: the basic problem is that we are fouling our own nest............and WE don't like that. WE should be more responsible and WE should leave this place (earth) as good or better than WE found it................
rtr
The Truth About Arctic and Greenland Ice
Leonard Weinstein, ScD
May 21, 2009
There is an interesting story going around that Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) is resulting in unusual melting of the polar and near polar ice caps, especially the Arctic sea ice and Greenland ice cap, and this is going to contribute to the Earth’s problems in a big way (flooding, feedback temperature increase, etc.). In order to understand the issue, a few simple facts and recent observations need to be shown. The following discussion is restricted to the Arctic and Greenland, since these are the main regions of contention. It should be noted that the Antarctic is presently cooling (and has been for several years) and sea ice extent is expanding.
rtr
To MrMark, The last paragraph was mine and I wasn't taking credit for the rest, purjured is not a word that aplies in this case?
sensible, do you realize just how dumb it makes you look to post from your liberal loon sites.
Think about this, It is getting warmer so the ICE is growing do to global warming, With that logic I should be able to freeze ice in the oven.....LOL
sensible
rtr:
The longest ice core record comes from East Antarctica, where ice has been sampled to an age of 800 kyr BP (Before Present).[11] During this time, the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration has varied by volume between 180 – 210 ppm during ice ages, increasing to 280 – 300 ppm during warmer interglacials.
During the 100,000 year ice age cycle, CO2 varies between a low of approximately 200 ppm during cold periods and a high of 280 ppm during interglacials. Recent human influences have increased this to above 380 ppm. There is a large natural flux of CO2 into and out of the biosphere and oceans. In the pre-industrial era these fluxes were largely in balance. Currently about 57% of human-emitted CO2 is removed by the biosphere and oceans; without this effect CO2 levels would be even higher
sensible
rtr:
NASA climate scientist James Hansen..... kindly put the Antarctic trends in some context:
"All of the models, and the observations, have the central parts of Greenland and Antarctica growing faster because of global warming. This is a consequence of warmer air holding more moisture, thus increasing snowfall. But the net effect of warming on both continental ice sheets is mass loss, the increased melting being a larger effect than the increased snowfall."
And according to Hansen, not all of Antarctica's sea ice is increasing:
He also said "The fact that West Antarctica is shedding mass at a substantial rate, even though there is only small warming of surrounding sea surface temperatures, is a telling fact in my opinion, and a likely consequence of the warming ocean at depth, which affects the ice shelves that buttress West Antarctica, as discussed in our paper 'Dangerous human-made interference with climate: a GISS modelE study.'"
MrMark
Flathead Frank-hmmm..where are you getting your figures, Al Gore? Human contribution to greenhouse gasses is less than 1/2 of 1%! Water vapor contributes over 99%. Methane, co2 and nitrous oxide make up the difference. So if by contributing you mean an infinitesimal amount, then I'd have to agree with you. It's hard to belive when you look at the earth, we little people, all 6+ billion of us, can't even be seen a couple hundred feet above ground! When you think about just how big the earth is and the weather that surrounds it and the relationship with the key factor of life, the sun, how could humans have anything to do with changing the climate, outside of a nuclear holocaust? And even then, mama earth would probably still survive! rtr, you need to use quotes around your statements or give credit to where you purjured your material from. It's pretty easy to tell when YOU are "speaking" and when you have copied from a googled page. At least put it in your own words.
rtr
The Little Ice Age was a period from about 1550 to 1850 when the world experienced relatively cooler temperatures compared to the present. Subsequently, until about 1940, glaciers around the world retreated as the climate warmed substantially. Glacial retreat slowed and even reversed temporarily, in many cases, between 1950 and 1980 as a slight global cooling occurred.
Today the glaciers are again growing at the fastest rate ever recorder in history in the Antarctica religion which could point to the possibility of another Little Ice Age do to a lack of solar sun flares.
I have to assume it was those darn horses, cows and pigs that were f*rting that was the cause of the glaciers melting back in the early 1900’s.
If only some phony politician like Al Gore back them could have thought of global warming they could have made a fortune.
rtr
sensible: rtr: we...........you keep saying we..............it's those voices again.
isn't it.
===================================
I used the term "WE" in the context of "WE" do not want CO2 levels getting any lower or "WE" as humans will have food shortages do to plants not producing and without the plants that create oxygen our air quality will deteriorate.
Now if you want to go hungry and gasp for air in order to stay alive then I should not have used "WE" in the context of my post and I apologize to you for that.
benznd
Call it what you want. A warming cycle, global warming, nonsense, truth. IT DOES NOT MATTER. We are playing Russian roulette with our future generations. Your children, etc. So, we can take shots at any and all who suggest a relationship between us and the future. What is the average age of this blog site? Do we have an adequate representation of our youth. For a brief moment ,this is their country and their world. Why would we even "GO THERE." We are NOT in a position to pass judgment on such a topic. Do not call it Global Warming. That is the brown board with red dots folks. Look at the baby gulls, pecking those dots and getting nothing to sustain life. Is this a religious issue? Would be interesting to assess the link between pro life and global warming folks. Future Res, your MIT PhD brother has a take on all this, doesn't he? Anyway, no shots taken at anyone, although I did not read rtr. Sorry partner, but when I see the gun, I just move on. When I was young, we had a couple of ideals, aside from" tune in, turn on and drop out. It was: If it's yellow let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down. The other, Conspicuous Consumption. We have lost those socially responsible ideals.
JackPoynter
RTR, I blush to admit my mistake. Montana is what I meant, Wyoming is what I typed. Some kind of disconnect between brain and fingers, maybe.
The little bit I turned up mentioned spraying for the spruce budworm.
Using DDT as bait for vermin at the bottom of the food chain was not smart, certainly.
rtr
Bighorn0216
The filter on this new site is embarrassing. I had to split faithful*readers's screen name in order to pass
====================
Bighorn0216
The filter on this new site is embarrassing. I had to split faithful*readers's screen name in order to pass
====================
I do not say this to be mean Bighorn but you seem to be the only one having that problem. "I rarely have an issue with it" You might want to check your own filters internet, Just a thought .
As for your comment about ice fields shrinking, If you go to Jasper Park in Canada they have is posted from 1938 as to where the ice fields have shrunk and were doing so way before that which has NOTHING to do with your new global warming theory.
Also you fail you acknowledge that Antarctica had indeed grown it's glaciers more in the last several years than has ever been recorded by man.
If you need the references and can not find them I will be more than glad to post them for you.
Flathead Frank
Just as evolution is a fact, it's a fact borne from science that the earth's global surface temperature has risen 1.8 degrees since 1850. It's also a fact that man-made emissions contributes to this warming. And finally, it's a fact that this warming has consequences. Therefore, the issue really is pollution control. Just as we understood dumping raw sewage into lakes and rivers was not good, leading to the Clean Water Act, and just as we understood that pumping out smokestack pollutants was not good, leading to the Clean Air Act, we now understand as a scientific fact that continued emissions at the current level is not good. Disappointed to see our Country Editor call all of this "fake science." Reminds me of the Scopes Trail.
Editor
BigHorn: Sorry for the confusion. It is a big topic and I have a limited amount of space for the column each week.
My personal feeling is that the climate could be getting warmer, but if it is, then it is likely part of a natural cyclical process, and that mankind will not be able to reverse the trend through programs like cap and trade.
I included links to several of my earlier columns on this topic, where I brought up various other aspects of the evidence. You can peruse those if you want to see more of my take on global warming. But of course I am not a scientist either, just a citizen trying to analyze the evidence put in front of me by those who DO want to shift social policy using "science" as the justification.
rtr
JackPoynter, I never said anything about Wyoming at all, “Not sure where you got that” It was a Montana campaign “State funded” to eradicate gophers and prairie dogs state wide for the farmers and ranchers knowing full well DDT was soon to be outlawed.
As for my knowledge of it being DDT, Yes I seen it first hand knowledge, What they did was mix the DDT with rolled oats and put it around the gopher holes, About a handful in each one. "THAT I PERSONALY SEEN"
As you can imagine the gophers, Marmots, Badgers and other rodents ate it and then the Hawks, Owls, Eagles, Coyotes and I suppose bears ate the above. “The end result was it inialated Pleasant Valley and that was NOT an isolated incident” there were other places in the Valley also and ALL across the state of Montana.
To this day prairie dogs have never recovered in the state of Montana other than a few isolated areas.
I am not one of those enviromental coocs at all, I was merely pointing out what I had first hand knowledge of and it brought this state of Montana to it's knees for several years when it came to all of the above animals they destroyed and if you notice they have put some of the prairie dogs on the endangered list that NEVER recovered.
Eagles, Hawks, Coyotes and Badgers have come back no problem, The rest have NOT. "My childhood was great shooting Gophers, Marmonts, Coyotes and Badgers but our kids today will never experience what I was able to do to DDT".
This has nothing to do with global warming or the topic so I apoligize to everyone for that.
sensible
rtr: FROM NASA:
Global Temperature Trends: 2008 Annual Summation
Originally posted Dec. 16, 2008, with meteorological year data. Updated Jan. 13, 2009, with calendar year data.
Calendar year 2008 was the coolest year since 2000, according to the Goddard Institute for Space Studies analysis [see ref. 1] of surface air temperature measurements. In our analysis, 2008 is the ninth warmest year in the period of instrumental measurements, which extends back to 1880 (left panel of Fig. 1). The ten warmest years all occur within the 12-year period 1997-2008. The two-standard-deviation (95% confidence) uncertainty in comparing recent years is estimated as 0.05°C [ref. 2], so we can only conclude with confidence that 2008 was somewhere within the range from 7th to 10th warmest year in the record.
Bighorn0216
The filter on this new site is embarrassing. I had to split faithful*readers's screen name in order to pass. Instead of typing "brook trout," I said "br*ookies," and that was challenged. Since when has "br*ookies" been objectionable content? (Astericks added here to permit posting.)
For goodness sake, administrators, get real with this.
Bighorn0216
I'm in absolute accord with faithful*reader's admission, that I study all the evidence and the reports and I have a modicum of ability to understand science, but I don't know what's going on with the climate change. I don't know anymore who to believe or trust.
Frank, I notice that most forums' posts are at cross-purposes, because there is confusion as to whether the position is that 1) it isn't happening, or that 2) it is, but it isn't man-made. I've read and re-read your column, and I'm not sure which--if either-- camp you're in.
Surely things are happening. The ice cap is shrinking. Greenland is shrinking. I don't know that this keeps me awake at night. I mean...i*c*e turns into water; is that a problem? But just as surely, we industrial nations po*op in our own nests.
I've spent quite a bit of time in Chinese venues, with a filter mask clamped onto my face just so I could breathe without coughing, and I know that environmental concerns are not chief amongst their political interests. Neither were they ours, prior to our enrichment through capitalizing on the processes, before people started coughing up blood in the coal mines, and contracting mesothelioma because they lived in Libby, Montana. I worked with Vermiculite a long time when I was yet a kid, and I have little doubt that Montana will eventually be part of what kills me. And THAT kills me.
I frankly don't know where the arrow hits. 30-below wasn't at all unusual on our farm in the West Valley when I was a kid, but I've rarely, if ever, seen it since. Several marshy areas around where I live now are high and dry, all the ducks, frogs, geese, herons and other wetland critters gone. When I visited my West Valley home a few years ago, the creek across our place was dry, something never imagined in my upbringing, when we could get a dinner's worth of brook trout any time we wanted to. Now when I return it is again full. Why? I have no idea.
I live in an area where toxic underground chemical plumes have affected or destroyed the well water of folks who had clear, clean sources for a hundred years. In some cases, the polluter has paid for filtering the water. In other cases, developers have gone bankrupt, and homebuyers have done likewise, because we've po*oped in our own nest.
If the call out against that is all that the global warming campaign does, it will be worth it to our kids and grandkids.
Something is going on. I don't know what it is. I'm not going to blame it on the sun. We have our own lives to take responsibility for.
rtr
Rob123
We're just a blip on the evolutionary tale.
========================
That was my point and man is not near as powerful as some would think themselves to be.
Even if temps did go up 1 to 1 1/2 degree is would be a good thing and not a bad thing.
The deal is however that temps have been declining globaly "Per NASA" since 2003 which the likes of Al Gore will not address since it is about a way to get money fraudulently only.
The DDT issue is seperate issue from the global warming hoax however.
I don't know if you ever seen pleasent Valley prior to the DDT days or not but it was an amazing place. "Almost Mystical" and you know that is a strech for me.
sensible
rtr: we...........you keep saying we..............it's those voices again.
isn't it.
Rob123
rtr....I liked your post concerning DDT in Montana in the 70's.....OVER USE......however, your next comment : "The point of that is the Co2 levels we have today are a good thing and we do NOT want them any lower." A little problematic if you look at our recent Sun Spot activity, Solar Flare activity, and the present distance of the Earth from the Sun as we do our Egg like orbit. ......And I am sure Human Activity has (and will) increase the Earth's Temp between 1/2 and 1 1/2 degree C, over and above the normal cycle of our present interglacial period. One big volcano on top of what we presently are emitting, and this old Earth could cloud up and stay clouded up for centuries until the Ice Sheets cool everything down and the clouds go away anf then a few thousand years of melting and we are back here again. It's going to do it with or without us. We're just a blip on the evolutionary tale.
rtr
http://volubrjotr.com/2009/07/10/gore-is-a-liar-no-global-warming-nasa-planet-cooling-since-2003/
30,000 Scientist Sue Al Gore For Global Fraud: No Global Warming – NASA: Planet Cooling Since 2003
I believe this speaks volumes.
JackPoynter
RTR posted on devastation in the Flathead River Valley following DDT usage by the state of Wyoming.
Well, you know what you saw, I wasn't there. I'd like to know why the state of Wyoming treated the Flathead Valley, and whether the lack of animal life you saw there was really due to DDT use.
The reason I ask is, the Ocmulgee River wetlands were treated with DDT, but it doesn't seem to have affected much other than the malarial mosquitoes. I can tell you the last time I was there, I was about eaten alive by mosquitoes, but they weren't the malaria carriers.
rtr
FutureResident posted:
5% of the publishing climate researchers are skeptical about climate change. Not much considering 6% of the population believe the moon landings were a hoax.
=======================
Then please explain the Class action law suit signed by 30,000 scientists do to Al Gore faultly using their names in order to promote the HOAX when it comes to global Warming?
FutureResident
5% of the publishing climate researchers are skeptical about climate change. Not much considering 6% of the population believe the moon landings were a hoax.
rtr
sensible posted:
my point is that antarctic ice core samples show a direct correlation between co2 levels and temp.................. is this a legitimate concern as a leading indicator about temps, especially as it pertains to our grain belts and agri-systems?
===============================
Indeed it dropped to dangerously low levels during recent ice ages.
The point of that is the Co2 levels we have today are a good thing and we do NOT want them any lower.
sensible
Rob said: sensible:"......the affects of CO2 levels must be considered....." What are the current PPM of CO2; and at what PPM number do larger mammals start a) becoming lethargic b) dropping like flys?
As of November 2007, the CO2 concentration in Earth's atmosphere was about 0.0384% by volume, or 384 parts per million by volume (ppmv). This is 100 ppmv (35%) above the 1832 ice core levels of 284 ppmv.
my point is that antarctic ice core samples show a direct correlation between co2 levels and temp.................. is this a legitimate concern as a leading indicator about temps, especially as it pertains to our grain belts and agri-systems?
rtr
JackPoynter
The improper interference with DDT use in Africa, which was documented in a National Geographic article http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/07/malaria/finkel-text is the most egregious example of deleterious actions by the environmentalism movement,
=================
I read the article and it was very good...Thanks
At a local level just before DDT was outlawed the State of Montana made a point of using it a much and as hard as they could all across the state just prior to it being outlawed.
It absolutely devastated parts of the Flathead Valley that have never recovered to this day..
Example: You could go to pleasant Valley "Up until 1973 or 1974" with CARTON of 22 shell "Not just a box of them" and you could shot the entire Carton in one day easy at gophers and the skies were full of Hawks, Eagles you name it, Coyotes, Marmonts and Badgers all over the place, It was absolutely amazing and after the DDT there was NOTHING left for animals on the ground or birds in the sky..
rtr
Carbon dioxide is not the dreaded greenhouse gas that the global warmers crack it up to be. It is in fact the most important airborne fertiliser in the world and without it there would be no green plants at all. In fact, a doubling of the levels of this gas in the atmosphere would bring about a marked rise in plant production — good news for everyone, especially those malnourished millions who can’t afford chemical fertilisers. Perhaps the time is ripe to really start worrying (again) about the fact that for the last 200 million years the concentration of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere has been falling. Indeed it dropped to dangerously low levels during recent ice ages. The Plant Kingdom responded to this potentially catastrophic (no carbon no food) situation by producing the so-called C4 plants that can survive low CO2 by using sunlight more efficiently.
faithful reader
Interesting post, JackPoynter.
I admit, the whole global-warming issue confuses me. I have no science expertise. I read a lot, but the two sides of this issue are so polarized and both have facts and data that lay people really can't sort through or judge. I honestly can't form an opinion on this.
rtr
Rob123
Or would that fall into rtr's version of Socialism, making me a commie pinko since I don't like my ground water screwed with?
======================
Are you still mad from yesterday, Get over it.
As for the CO2 issue MrMark is correct and what is even more important to note when it comes to CO2 is that it is an element that you have to have in order to sustain life it self.
MrMark
sensible, you're right to be concerned about the environment. I am too. But this cap and trade thing is not the right way of trying to get a better handle on it. CO2 is not the enemy here. It can't possibly trap enough of the so called greenhouse gasses to warm the earth! Please, do some research. Don't listen to the hysteria. Read both sides of the story instead of just the side that you want to believe. Thanks Frank. Great column this week.
Rob123
JackPoynter....That was a fair answer. Thank You.
JackPoynter
Robt123:
For those of us who have neither access to raw data nor the tools to process it, the whole dialog must be based on the credibility of the source and common sense. We have no other choice. Having been involved in information systems for the last forty years, I think I have had some experience in judging factors involved in the interrelatedness and complexity of the factors involved in both producing and solving systems failures.
Based on the past, I trust National Geographic's analysis of a situation. Based on the past, I trust Bill Gates' intentions with regard to Africa, AND his ability to analyze a situation. And I trust my own ability to recognize a complex situation, in which many factors are contributing.
In the case of Africa, both Bill Gates and the National Geographic have warned against environmentalist interference there. And I have seen with my own eyes the situation in Georgia before and after the use of DDT and the draining of malarial wetlands. So, I am immovable on that subject.
With regard to the use of pesticides by people who don't truly know how: go read that link I posted, then come back and tell me if a little sloppiness is not justified.
Thank you for your service. I was in the Corps from 1966 to 1969 myself. Your exposure to Agent Orange, however disastrous, must not be allowed to justify your opinion on the use of DDT to destroy malarial mosquitoes. The consequences are too large.
Controlling the inappropriate use of biological modifiers is a good thing, but as many have said with regard to other movements, "Environmentalism is such a good thing that it must not be left to the environmentalists." Environmental leadership has proven itself to be untrustworthy in real world situations. We need new leaders.
Rob123
JackPoynter: "Of course all pesticides should be used responsibly, not just DDT." Good. Since we don't know each other, I've got to ask: If an illiterate farmer walks in to the local Feed and Fuel and orders up a couple hundred gallons of pesticide, should there be regulations and regulators in place to make sure he doesn't poison the whole darn neighborhood? Or would that fall into rtr's version of Socialism, making me a commie pinko since I don't like my ground water screwed with? And my liver is already damaged from swimming in the South China Sea after the Rain washed all the Agent Orange into the sea from the mountains of Vietnam. Luckily, we had lots of airplanes and millions and millions of gallons for Operation Ranch Hand......Just no adult supervision.
Xcalifornian
2 things must happen if we are to fully recover from this recession: 1)China must float the Renminbi which is currently pegged at 1/2 to 1/3 its true value. Without this there is no way manufacturing in the US or Europe can fully recover and 2)the US must bring up its own ample oil reserves and stop shipping its wealth to the middle east. The global warming sillyness is one of the arguments being used to prevent us from doing this and to a large extent represents the real criminality of the global warming hoax.
mooseberryinn
Frank - What you say is true, but you're still wrong according to his Holiness Obama. As the saying goes - if the facts do not conform to the theory, they must be disposed of. The only "theory" for this mad lemming like rush to cripple the U.S. economy that comes to mind is money. Lots of money for those who already have lots of money, but they're just so warped by greed, they'll sacrifice the average folks just to get more money. look at who is "advising" obama about cap and tax for example. Saw a great bumper sticker - OBAMA - One Bad Axx Mistake America. Sorry and so true.
Rob123
Pete: "All you have to do to get a glimpse of the future is to read some posts on this site about "over-population". " So Pete, you moved from Pa., which has mountains and Lakes, to Flathead Lake because? Less populated, meaning good prices on land (prior to 2002)? As a montana resident the past 60 years, I think it has become quite crowded.......World Population: 1700=600million.....1800=900million.....1900=1.6billion......2000=6billion. Can you see a trend here? Should we be thinking about it? Some thinking that goes beyond "More Customers"?
Rob123
sensible:"......the affects of CO2 levels must be considered....." What are the current PPM of CO2; and at what PPM number do larger mammals start a) becoming lethargic b) dropping like flys?
Pete
Just as Irish filmmaker Phelim McAleen demonstrated, Global warming has been the left's "ace-in-the-hole" for pushing their social agenda no matter the obvious facts, but be warned...as this theory is debunked they will be far ahead of the curve in conjuring another man-made calamity to take its place. They have been too successful and have made too much money off the Global Warming hysteria to just give up on the basic strategy. All you have to do to get a glimpse of the future is to read some posts on this site about "over-population". By their own admission and sight sourcing, these posts are written by folks who consume copious amounts of leftist propaganda and as such they reveal the pulse of the left and where they would like to see the debate moved in order to keep cashing in, while implementing their social agenda. A few weeks ago I commented tongue-in-cheek about Gore re-tooling his green car factory in order to meet the demand for condoms as this new hysteria escalates and the Global Warming debate cools, but if he was really smart he would produce Polar Bear prophylactics instead...the market outlook is bright, as they seem to be proliferating at an alarming rate. Who knew it would be Apocalypse by Ursus Maritimus. Sounds scary huh?
JackPoynter
rtr:
The improper interference with DDT use in Africa, which was documented in a National Geographic article http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/07/malaria/finkel-text is the most egregious example of deleterious actions by the environmentalism movement, which is also the motive force behind the anthropogenic climate change movement.
The article posits the death of 23,000,000 (twenty-three MILLION) children. Don't take my word for it; go look at the article and argue with the National Geographic if you feel you should.
In their naturistic world view, some nebulous concept of "nature" is more important than the lives of human beings. In my world view, that makes them anathema.
Rob123:
Of course all pesticides should be used responsibly, not just DDT.
rtr
Cap and Trade tax, A tax designed to raise taxes from the middle class in a decietful way.
Tax the energy companies which will in turn raise the cost of the energy on the middle and lower class, Electricity, gasoline first off and then concider everything made from patrolem prodects "kids toys, you name it".
rtr
Katorce14 posted:
I wonder if you could tell me the stance you took during the Bush "Surge". Unless I miss my guess you favoured it.
==========================
My take on it was we needed to do it originaly and we should have bombed them back into the stone age which Bush did not do.
Skin color is obviously your problem because I could careless, Oh thats right it's your tiny little race card you are playing again.
Bottom line is your post has NOTHING to do with the topic so maybe you should go fly a kite in a global warming lighting storm so you can feel some of Al Gores power.
As for information, The easiest is to "google global warming loons".
katorce14
RTR - I wonder if you could tell me the stance you took during the Bush "Surge". Unless I miss my guess you favoured it. So now you oppose an escalation of troops (I'll call it what it is) Because it is a different President, one who's skin color bothers you? Or perhaps you had a change of heart and suddenly feel killing brown people on there own soil is wrong?
For the record I opposed the troop build up then and I oppose it now.
katorce14
I have an idea. Let's just let big polluters go right on polluting our water and our air.
Does anyone really know what cap and trade is? No, I don't mean the industry definition. I find it interesting that out of one side of the mouth a person will chastise politicians for listening to lobbyists and out of the other they will quote lobbyist nonsense.
RTR - perhaps you could point the uneducated among us toward these resources about scientists abandoning Al Gore. Unless of course these numbers are as you say "unreal" (made up)
lousia
Thanks Frank a great topic;
Papa Ray
Yes, this topic is very important and it is getting wide spread attention. Except that the attention it is getting is fueled by those that think the world is in danger from mankind's evil interference with nature. Which as anyone with half a brain knows is not true.
That it is not true- will not stop politicians and the UN (really, really evil politicians) world wide from hitching to the gravy train of Climate Change (which should be renamed, yet again, to "your money belong to us".
No matter how many real scientists come out and call this all a farce and untrue the politicians are going to pass laws, regulations and penalties world wide. Of course, this is going to be the biggest socialist money grab since....well, forever, and guess what?...there is not a dang thing anybody can do about it!!
These next few years are going to be a time of personal decision time. Each person is going to have to make a decision about what they think, what they are willing to do to stop this madness (and all the other socialist, communist assaults) before there will be no way to stop it all short of many revolutions worldwide.
Don't look to elections for much help. With the worldwide election fraud (including the United States) there will not be much change for the better.
Now is the time to make up your mind and make a personal commitment. Anybody trying to just sit on the fence and stay out of it will will be swept aside.
Papa Ray
Central Texas
The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed - where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.
2009 Judge Alex Kozinski
sensible
frank......there are many more arguments and much more science than your little columns can contain. the affects of CO2 levels must be considered, whether you believe it or not. the climate's cyclic nature due to earth's "wobbling" and revolution pattern changes all contribute to the climate.......and these suggest a changing climate also. will it happen at noon next friday? no. but it will. just as yellowstone will erupt.
after all the oil companies have done to undermine national security, one should question their credibility on this topic..............anytime they commision and fund their own studies, i laugh. these are the same people who supported the wmd theory and "resource wars" in iraq and afghanistan (and are pushing for the same in iran).
trust the oil companies......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah. never. never.
sensible
just keep pis$ing in your own pool.....................
and when the particulant laden air you breath and excremant laden water you drink reaches a tipping point, will you then have "tea parties" and blame the environmentalists?
rtr
What does DDT have to do with global warming or the topic at hand?
Rob123
JackPoynter: Do you differentiate between the proper application of DDT (which I consider 'good') and the poor, uninformed farmer dumping it around with little knowledge and reckless abandon, creating food chain collapses? Africa has and is suffering from OUR stupid pseudo-science concerning the ban on DDT and the persistent outbreaks of Malaria. No doubt about it. Why isn't it fixed?
JackPoynter
Anthropogenic climate change is an example of millenial fervor, based on the fallacy of central position, the desire to be a hero, the desire to 'be like others', fear of the unknown, the desire to garner income, and the desire to create a market. These are powerful forces that operate in fad situations, to a greater or lesser extent. When they resonate with each other, they create situations like the Millerite phenomena of the 1840's and the Y2K silliness. In retrospect we can see the error; when one is bound up in one of these, seeing clearly becomes difficult.
The environmental movement has much to answer for. What good it has done has been overshadowed by their interference with the use of DDT in Africa, and now, according to Bill Gates, their interference with using genetically engineered crops in Africa.
I am glad every day that environmentalism didn't get control in this country until after DDT eliminated the malarial mosquito in Georgia, my home. As an historian and genealogist, I can see the effect of disease on the south from before the Revolution forward; the parallels with Africa are obvious and apalling.
And I am glad every day that a courageous and skeptical populace has stood up to these people, and can only hope for their speedy departure from American and global life.
rtr
Seeing as how some people hate the wars we are in that are being escalated by the Kenyan all off a sudden think we should police the world when it comes to "China and India" and the pollutants they put out seems a bit hypocritical to me.
But then again I use logic when it comes to my thinking instead of sheep like emotions that have no factual basis at all.
rtr
Frank, You picked one of my favorite topics this week...Great Job.
There are so many scientists deserting Al Gore and his lies about global warming it is unreal and heavily documented and easily accessible on the internet.
Cap and Trade, Better known as Tax and Steal from the working class is all it is.
Tax the electric companies, oil companies and etc for using fossil and you don't think those taxes will be handed down to the users of that energy...........Just how stupid does Al Gore and this Kenyan really think we all are here in the USA is the real question and / or what can they get away with when it comes to the deciet is a better question.
Rob123
I agree with your thinking on this "Global Warming" subject. However, adding in Asthma and Lung Cancer spikes to your model would be VERY interesting. Especially some statistical models now that cigarette smoking is way down, but not lung problems (Time will certainly tell, but do we have 3 decades when the tons of new pollutants from China and India are factored in to our own stream?). We need to seperate the genetic causes from the environmental triggers/causes. We are still pumping out a lot of carcinogens world wide. And particulates small enough to invade the pleural sac of the lungs. But good editorial.....however, we are not out of the woods yet, ALL things considered.