Michael Crichton must be rolling over in his grave, but the good news is it’s because he’s having a good laugh.
Crichton, who died last year, was the best-selling author of numerous science-based novels including “State of Fear,” which told of a global conspiracy by “climate-change” proponents to manipulate scientific data for the purpose of scaring the world into doing “the right thing.”
Now, of course, thanks to an anonymous hacker, hundreds of suspicious e-mails and documents from global-warming scientists have been released to the public suggesting that (surprise!) “climate-change” proponents have been manipulating scientific data for the purpose of scaring the world into doing “the right thing.”
Talk about life imitating art! It has all the drama of a well-told novel, which of course is why Crichton comes to mind.
The most damning evidence of manipulation of data seems to be in the e-mails, which were purloined from computers at the University of East Anglia’s Climate Research Unit in Britain (also known as Hadley Centre CRU) after repeated attempts to secure the documents legally through Freedom of Information requests were spurned.
The reason why lots of people don’t trust global warming scientists is that it is a science based on statistics and computer modeling. Mark Twain summed up statistics in his famous quote (which he attributed to Benjamin Disraeli): “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” As for computer modeling, it is to statistics what CGI is to cave painting. And as with computer-generated animation, any darn thing goes in computer modeling. In fact, that’s one of the constant themes in the leaked e-mails.
“I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline,” said Dr. Phil Jones, the director of the Climate Research Unit, in one of them.
Tricks and deception? From scientists? No way!
Well, yes, it turns out that was pretty standard, along with sloppy research:
“OH F--- THIS. It’s Sunday evening, I’ve worked all weekend, and just when I thought it was done I’m hitting yet another problem that’s based on the hopeless state of our databases. There is no uniform data integrity, it’s just a catalogue of issues that continues to grow as they’re found.”
That rant comes from the HARRY_READ_ME file, which so far as I can tell was written by a poor bloke named Harry who obviously wanted to make the numbers in the database mean something when just as obviously they were totally bolloxed. It’s no wonder that eventually some of these scientists decided to play fast and loose with the facts.
Of course, tricks and deception aren’t always needed if you can just control the information being published. That too has been revealed to be part of the “scientific method” employed by global-warming proponents to skew the evidence in favor of their theories. Indeed, the term “peer-reviewed” from now on shall be synonymous with “stuff that agrees with us.”
Michael Mann, one of the most infamous global-warming scientists, expressed his concern to Jones and other scientists when he found out that that the journal “Climate Research” had an editor who would not toe the line on climate-change orthodoxy:
“This was the danger of always criticising the skeptics for not publishing in the ‘peer-reviewed literature,’” he warned. “Obviously, they found a solution to that — take over a journal! So what do we do about this? I think we have to stop considering “Climate Research” as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal.”
Jones added his own flourish when he wrote to Mann on a related topic in an e-mail titled “Highly Confidential”:
“I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow — even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !”
Well, yes, that would work. Indeed, manipulating what is “peer-reviewed” is just as effective as manipulating raw data, since the mainstream media thinks peer-reviewed is the gold standard of science. The IPCC, by the way, is the Intergovernment Panel on Climate Change, the U.N. body that converts “raw science” into “raw power” as it takes questionable computer models and uses them to try to engineer massive trillion-dollar changes in social policy by flummoxing gullible politicians. All part of the “pure and applied” science of progressive globalism.
Jones also wrote to Mann on a related topic — how to minimize the problems created by sloppy science done by members of their team of IPCC (and thus Nobel Prize-winning scientists):
“For your interest, there is an ECMWF ERA-40 Report coming out soon, which shows that [climate-change researchers] [Eugenia] Kalnay and [Ming] Cai are wrong. It isn’t that strongly worded as the first author is a personal friend of Eugenia. The result is rather hidden in the middle of the report. It isn’t peer review, but a slimmed down version will go to a journal.”
OK, so that is a bit dense for most of us lay people, but ERA stands for ECMRWF Re-Analysis, and ECMRWF stands for European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts, a climate think-tank based in Reading, England. As for the ERA-40, it was a re-analysis of global atmospheric and surface conditions from 1957 through 2002 that was run through a computer model at a 40km resolution (whatever that means).
The important thing is that Dr. Jones knew about an effort to soft-pedal scientific errors and went along with it out of personal loyalty. In what appears to be a followup e-mail, Jones explains the situation to Mann.
“As I said it is worded carefully due to Adrian [apparently Adrian Simmons] knowing Eugenia for years. He knows they’re wrong, but he succumbed to her almost pleading with him to tone it down as it might affect her proposals in the future! I didn’t say any of this, so be careful how you use it — if at all. Keep quiet also that you have the pdf.”
Of course, that secretive tone is not exactly what you would expect from the free exchange of ideas that is supposed to be at the heart of the scientific process, but when you are letting policy dictate your science, it apparently is standard operating procedure.
Jones again wrote to Mann (those two!), “Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment — minor family crisis. Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address. We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.”
AR4 refers to the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and there have been charges that it skewed the science intentionally by excluding opposing viewpoints from the report for political purposes. (Imagine that!)
So what we seem to have is distortion of data, suppression of evidence, manipulation of the media, and in general a smoking gun the size of that new nuclear reactor in Iran. It’s almost as though we don’t know what is truth and what is fiction anymore when it comes to global warming science.
Of course, Michael Crichton already knew that. And since he was a lover of science “fiction,” apparently he gets the last laugh.
n Frank Miele is managing editor of the Daily Inter Lake and writes a weekly column. E-mail responses may be sent to edit@dailyinterlake.com
More Coverage
- Pulling back the curtain on global warming
- Patriotic Gore and other global warming mongering
- Hot tempers and global warming
- Hey Newsweek: Why not just call us heretics?
SorrySOB
Doing a search as Rob suggested to find more details has once again raised my suspicions of what Fox/Frank's motives in writing this article really is. Does he sincerely care about the Seals, or is he using this situation to simply further undermine the current administration? Do some searching (further than Fox links) instead of taking Frank's word for it and you be the judge. If it is as I suspect, then it is shameful rather than bold and patriotic.
Rob123
Jack.....Thank you for the post on the slow loading......I thought it was my computer, and ran my Anti-spyware cleaner 3 times over the course of Saturday.
Also, thank you for
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok.html
a wealth of information and I have a couple hours of reading 'stuff' in there. I hope other people concerned with the science of Climate Change take some time to look.
And Dr. Benznd! Are you up on the whole "Sybil" psychology that Bronco has either introduced or is trying to introduce? Hope so. I'm more confused than "curious", and not nearly as cute.
rtr
SorrySOB
Don't worry. I'm sure we will all be glad to give Frank's column tomorrow all of the respect we feel it deserves.
======================
I am sure us residence of the Flathead Valley will give you out of state socialist platform builders all the respect you deserve also...!
SorrySOB
Don't worry. I'm sure we will all be glad to give Frank's column tomorrow all of the respect we feel it deserves.
rtr
By the way Bronco how is that post card thing and your flight to Denmark going.........Are you taking your wife with you?
Bronco
My creation threatens to take over by minimizing my efforts at contributing. The 'cut and paste' style can only be used by one of us so I guess that's why 'he' believes his 'contributions' are so important.
I have gone this far so I will not compromise the new character. Instead I will 'allow' him to finish out the day without Bronco. But Bronco may show up later, depending on how things develop.
All yours Ronald...
curious
Jack the sad part about the story in the link is the continued development in areas that are already below sea level, and the insistence that we build in places that will be retaken by nature. Look at Louisiana, and Orange County California. In Huntington Beach and Newport Beach California, they brought dirt into the marshlands and built houses on it. If history repeats itself, Marsh's will return to what they were, and we saw with Katrina what happens when you build a city at a level below sea level. But these areas that they discussed are looking for global assistance when they made bad decisions.
Bendnz, in rambling, I was referring to the Cocaine and Downs syndrome babies, popped out of nowhere, not in line with the story, not even the divergence to the religious side story. Maybe you can tell me how they linked. Share.
rtr
Bronco
If you're confused I'll refer you to rtr since he likes you better than he does me.
================
How can this be since you said you were me, You are right about one thing though I do not like you very much...
Your humor is poor, Your addition to the weeks worth of information whether it be for your liberal side and or just good information is NON-existent....You know the deal.
What say tomorrow you participate like an adult at least for a day or two with Frank’s new column......”I really don’t think that would be asking to much”…
Bronco
But if you have a Jaffa WWW server for DOS and run the test on a 80286 you may find some parity especially if it supports CGI-BIN utilities externals. All complete 32-bit C/C++ development system for 386 (and higher) PCs running DOS should open the GUI v5. 5.14 multi-platform and you can make some distinctions there before you test.
If you're confused I'll refer you to rtr since he likes you better than he does me.
rtr
Jack I think I have it figured out, I believe it is an ASCII batch file running on the 286 server using a DOS platform that is having the problem.....{-:
benznd
OK, I now went back and read all your posts. I ask that perhaps tomorrow or next week when the topic has been hashed to death, that you tell me what anti-social ramblings I engage in. EVERYTHING I POST HAS RELEVENCE. I may appear to ramble, but it is purposeful. I feel that my "apparent" ramblings may just fall on deaf ears. I do not know. Let me know at some time so I can think about it, as you could be right. I follow Bronco all the time. (-:
Bronco
My dark side speaks again. Can all of you follow 'his' syntax? It is most challenging for me to dumb down repeatedly and consistently. I had some glitches in the beginning and some of you pointed out the inconsistencies. I think I have all of the bugs worked out though.
This new character, rtr, or Ronald Travis Reynolds, is a personality I developed for a new book I am writing. The working title is "No Shame, I'm Lame, Who's to Blame?" How am I doing so far? Believable or not?
rtr
Jack
On a lighter note, the mayor of Copenhagen wrote around 160 hotels in the city, asking them to discourage prostitution (which is legal in Denmark,) during the convention, sending along postcards with the warning printed on them. The prostitutes have announced free sex for anyone who has one of the postcards. You can google that one pretty easily I think, so I won't put in a link for it.
==========================
I went about it a different direction with the GOOGLE, I just googled Bronco and it came up with a flight number headed for Denmark right after you posted that......{-:
JackPoynter
Before I forget it, a quick technical note. Service on this website, it seems to me, deteriorates as the week goes along. Today, (Saturday,) it takes several minutes for the site to establish itself, and several minutes to go from point to point in it, and several minutes to make a post, and several minutes to just refresh.
There is one of two things wrong, I think:
1. A piece of advertising is severely whizzo-sprung, and needs to be corrected, or
2. Reloading the comments into memory is performed at every refresh.
I incline to the comment reload as the correct issue, because I've seen this before. Exponentially increasing response times occur when a linearly loaded data set grows without bound; in order to add something to it, or to prepare to add something to it, the whole data set is read, then the new piece is added, and then the next time the original data set has to be reloaded, plus the piece added last time.
In the C language, and its descendants C++, and Java, to do a memory allocation (such as to reserve a piece of memory to store a comment), requires the memory manager to walk the length of the allocated storage queue to find its end. So when a comment is added, in the current state of the comment queue, which is 496 as I look at it right now, the program memory manager will have to perform 496 iterations of checking for the end of the queue, then add the new comment. The next comment added will perform 497 iterations, and so on.
This has happened to me several times. The most embarrassing was when I built a GIS display for Fort Hood, Texas, as part of a demonstration of a particular system my company was selling. The program started out throwing vectors on the screen at an amazing (for the time) rate, then began to slow, until after a few minutes each vector began to take seconds, then minutes to appear on the screen.
My embarassment was increased because it built the stupid display upside down and backwards, but that just took a second to fix, in the translation from real-world to screen coordinates.
The time-to-run problem took a different approach to vector storage allocation; I had to essentially bypass the algorithm C used, and write a new, more efficient version.
Anyway, forget war stories, Frank, please talk to the folks who handle this comment stuff to see if that might be the problem.
JP
rtr
You just wish you could be Me Bronco, You would have to get an understanding of freedom instead of giving your mind and soul to the slavery of government."You live for handouts and will never change" "You would have to have been born with the sheep like mentality to act the way you do and that you couldn't change enough to be me"
I have to say though you did make me chucle and allmost brought your sense of humor to that of Rob's level with eating the canary for lunch.......{-:
JackPoynter
Very slow newsday for climate information. Mostly the furor has susbsided because:
1. Copenhagen is dead, as far as a treaty is concerned,
2. Investigations are in place,
3. Data is being released.
On a lighter note, the mayor of Copenhagen wrote around 160 hotels in the city, asking them to discourage prostitution (which is legal in Denmark,) during the convention, sending along postcards with the warning printed on them. The prostitutes have announced free sex for anyone who has one of the postcards. You can google that one pretty easily I think, so I won't put in a link for it.
Also, the Dutch have begun adapting to future deteriorating climates.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/05/AR2009120502186.html
AGW folks are upset because they think the Dutch should be spending the money on prevention, not adaptation. It's in the link. But the Dutch have not survived for centuries in their position by being starry-eyed. They believe hope for the best, prepare for the worst. AGW folks think they're being selfish.
Bronco
Folks, I have a confession to make. I AM RTR. I bought a new laptop this summer and have been using both; one I call Antagonist, the other Protagonist. Things got carried away but it has been fun...so much fun that I am going to continue being BOTH!
I got the idea when I thought some people needed their awareness level raised just an inch or so about what they were actually supporting. So I invented a maniacal conservative who doesn't even know he's one.
No applause, please. And no apologies. rtr does not believe in them...or much of anything past his birdhouse mailbox. My therapist said I am making big strides and to keep up the charade.
Thanks to all of you I am healing.
Well, back to work. rtr is a huge task.
BadRockBilly
Bendnz; George Ruggles is in my family tree. Born in Sudbury, Suffolk, England 1611 Died in Boston Suffolk MA. 18-Jan-1668 or 1669
benznd
Curious, thank you also. That reading from the IL Historical Society was very interesting. I also did not know about all the family members who were also Senators from other States. I knew of his particular family, as it follows through my grandmother to my family. Thanks so much. I take back all the NASTY things I may have said to you. ALthough I did say you were cute, so push old Bronco out of your mind. He's married and lives far far away...............................
Rob123
Benznd....Interesting family tree......Did your family sell the Ranch to Peter Fonda or Ted Turner? In or Near Paradise Valley? Didn't they use to have signs down there that said "The Irish Pray on their Knees....The Scots Prey on their neighbors" and then everyone would go to town and have fun? Good old days.....do ya kind of want them baaaaaaaack? (-:
curious
Benznd, here are more links to what looks like your greatgrandfather
James Monroe Ruggles
http://www.ancientfaces.com/research/photo/363776
http://books.google.com/books?id=DZcUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=James+Monroe+Ruggles&source=bl&ots=2GUcrzRrPR&sig=5AaooGif_gi6kSYlFs4Cnh_YhQM&hl=en&ei=e80aS5fzJMz5nAf3pbXfAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCIQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=James%20Monroe%20Ruggles&f=false
benznd
Jack, thanks for the info. I had never researched my great Grandfather other than the information provided by his granddaughter. His name was James Monroe Ruggles. The Ruggles family migrated west from Mass. Thankfully, the Ruggles side of my family kept "everything" and since I was the only one to show any interest in the history of our family, I was given all of the information. I am the Montana Ruggles descendant with all the trunks of "stuff." My kids and grand-kids receive those heirlooms for their birthdays and Christmas.
I will copy the research you have done and pass it on. My oldest son has an interest and will probably carry on the interest in family. My paternal great grandparents came to MT in the early 1880's and ran a head of 25,000 sheep in central Montana. They had a wonderful, I remember it as a child, Willowcreek Ranch at the foot of the Snowies just a bit east and south of Lewistown. I have many of the Ranch items as well. My great grandparents were Scottish. My great grandmother was a poet as well as artist. A family cemetery exists near Minerva Creek about a mile to the west of the old Ranch. My great grandparents as well as aunts and uncles are all buried there. My mother is there as well. And you can take it to the bank that I will be with my family also.
So, thanks for your interest. Brought back some pleasant memories.
rtr
Bronco says my first post this week had nothing to do with this column, Bronco maybe you shouldn't think people are quite as nieve as you would like them to be since anyone can read my first post but just so you have it I will repost it for your eyes.
==
I can't wait to see Obama's new tactic when it comes to the sale of his Cap and Trade seeing as how Global Warming whooy was the brain child for it..Or Was that Al Gore.
I bet the Chinese will sure be happy to find out that Global Warming isn't for real...{-:
It looks like them darn Polar bears are going to be ok after all.
rtr
BadRockBilly
Curious; When Obama shows up in Copenhagen on the 18th, at the final moment, will he be viewed as the savior of the world?
=================
Pete declared he was human a few weeks ago to everyones dismay......Please don't keep rubbing our noses in it....We lost our Messiah and now all the little ACORN angels have lost their way.
SorrySOB
Don't you worry there Donno, I have plenty left. Besides, did Frank go and change the rules again and say that the only posts that can be made have to be "intelligent" and, if so, by who's standards? I must have missed it. Anyway, here I go, so get ready. E=MC squared means that the glaciers are melting at 4.23 times the duration of the solar flare right after the equinox. Dang, hope my email don't get hacked and have that important information be shared with the world. Al is really going to be mad.
rtr
Rob
Why rtr, for an old Hard Rock Miner who ate his dead canary for lunch and went back to work, your concern over sorrysob's head is refreshing. Keep up the good, ah, work
===================================
Well Thank You Rob your appreciation of my concern for SorrySOB has been noted.
With the way he posts I’m just afraid he will end up bursting a blood vessel and end up like one of those people with Turret Syndrome, You know the kind twitching and jerking and spewing stuff uncontrollably.
Come to think of it that just might explain a few things about his posts already.
curious
Rob, I guess I don't understand what you don't understand, So going first to respond to what you don't understand, would be short of a miracle. I have a difficult time staring at goats.
Rob123
Curious? " Rob, what don't you understand? "
Hey, I think I said it to you first? Therefore, you answer first? Those are the rules, ya know. (-:
Rob123
Why rtr, for an old Hard Rock Miner who ate his dead canary for lunch and went back to work, your concern over sorrysob's head is refreshing. Keep up the good, ah, work.
curious
BadRock, when he shows up on the 18th, I guess it depends on what he brings to the table. This conference appears to be more of a congregation passing the bucket, And I think that Obama will miss the feel good part of the conference.
So he either already feels good, or he will be a disappointment to the other countries. It might be perceived as a snub, and he feels he is better than the rest for not sharing all of the festivities. I guess if we could see into the future with clarity, there would be no debate on Global warming, cooling or status quo.
rtr
SorrySOB
then more insults and then more of his own platform building. All of which seems to be perfectly ok in his mind.
===============
The insults all started with you liberals like always this week, Quite humorous do to your PATHETIC INABLIBLY TO SHOW ANY INTELLEGENCE however I might add.
Not once have I condoned anything any president has done including Roosevelt up to and including the loser we have in office today.
As for me building ANY kind of political platform please give us all some references to that will you please.
Are you running out of insults and or any other material there SorrySOB seeing as how you have had NOTHING at all to add to this column that was on topic even so much as one time.
Depending on what Franks column is Sunday maybe you could put just a little effort into acting like you have some intelligence and try adding to the subject at hand instead of only posting to insult the DIL and the majority of residence that live in the Flathead Valley.
I realize it would be a stretch for you but just try it once, Do take small steps with using your brain though because I reaalize it has been a long time and I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...
curious
Bronco, defending/ignoring, You all are capable, In fact, more than capable of defending yourselves;
"Wilson, just ignore it. Like a herpes sore, it just keeps coming back to aggravate you and makes you stop having sex"
"rtr is getting mean again. The only thing constant about the guy is his utter and incurable stupidity. "
And what would I do if I was Mom, providing you only used the English language, I would allow you to debate it. I have five brothers, so growing up there was a lot of the debate. Which included many of the words that all "ALL" of you use. There are no defenseless persons out there that I can see. And there are none out there without guilt.
It certainly looks like all of your Mothers, let you work it out as well growing up.
BadRockBilly
Excuse me Rob123 I cot you mixed up with Bronco. Strange how bronco gets his funny bone tickled when mastrubation and ejaculation is the subject.
fun gal
rtr sure is notorious around here. I wonder why that is??
BadRockBilly
It used to be important for the government to follow the Constitution, but you are right Bronco it doesn't make much difference now who is in the Presidents chair.
Curious; When Obama shows up in Copenhagen on the 18th, at the final moment, will he be viewed as the savior of the world?
Bronco
Yeah, Rob, Nair is better than blindness. Pascal represents rtr's Fourth Maxim: "Nothing is so conformable to reason as to disavow reason."
Or Confucius: "Man who go to bed with hard problem, wake up with solution in hand."
Wilson, WAKE UP! We need your 'box of raisins.'
fungal, I agree. This is more fun than debating bloggers' emails about skewed findings and falsified reports.
SorrySOB, you are anything but. Thanks for watching my back.
rtr, time to re-bandage the knuckles. Try some Nair.
Bronco
Go on, curious, "we" are listening. Your omission of defending/ignoring rtr is well documented.
rtr is first to dedicate his first comment this week which had nothing on-topic at all about it (he gets a pass).
curious
Rob, what don't you understand?
curious
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/05/AR2009120501280_4.html
Climate drama climax looks elusive in Copenhagen
Obama will now show up on the last day of the conference the 18th, instead of the 7th for the conference. Does this mean he doesn't think it is as important as previously thought? Or is he ready to commit billions a year, and only needs to show up to sign the deal?
Rob123
Curious....I don't understand.
Bronco....I did pick up on the Wilson statement:
But then, I also carry Nair with me, and wash my hands a lot. go figure? The last, residual affects of Pascals' Wager?
BadRockBilly.....President Obama's Birth Place......At this stage of the game, does it even matter? I personally think everything is fine with his birth. In fact, I'm glad he was born.
fun gal
ROFLMAO.......This is hilarious.....better than Saturday morning cartoons!!!
curious
SorrySOB, let me rephrase, change WE to maybe someone.
curious
Bronco, you took my post pretty defensively, I did not suggest you leave, I only said we could get you a room for your wierd, dialogs that have every appearance of personal between you, as they had nothing to do with the column, previous posts. Just some rambling to fill the page? I don't know. I didn't say YOU were non social, just some of the posts.
BadRockBilly
Global warming could be True or False at this moment. Like Wilson says, there are cycles and I do not know. I do believe climate change change is sure.
Bronco; Santa Claus died, He has been replaced but his powers are exaggerated.
Bill Ayers has strong political beliefs and could be involved in Chicago with Barack Obama aka Barry Soweto. Bill Ayers was dedicated to change in the USA.
The Protocols of the Zionist Elders; Plenty of room to believe the protocols could be used as guide to getting ahead.
Do you believe it is impossible for Barack Obama to have been born outside the USA?
SorrySOB
I wonder if rtr is the only one who cannot see that he is just full of double standards when it comes to free speech. If anyone says anything about his posts, he cries foul and he and Frank start parading around the Constitiution and free speech. However, anytime anyone says anything that isn't part of his agenda, it is always the same old thing. He gets upset and comes back with statements about platform building, Marxists, Socialists, athiests, "this forum rejected you" or "that forum kicked you out", Old Bull, knuckle dragging, etc. etc., and then more insults and then more of his own platform building. All of which seems to be perfectly ok in his mind.
And curious, again with the "we" as in "we can get you a private room." Like I asked before, who exactly is we? If you don't work for the DIL or are married to Frank, then you must have something in your pocket that we probably don't want to know about. Interesting how individuals come on a forum and decide that they have more influence or authority than others and start speaking for an imaginary group that will "control" the rest. The bottom line is that we are all individuals behind a keyboard with all the same rights. Although many of us have differences of opinions, this isn't the story of the Lord of the Flies, and no one is going to get pushed off of a cliff or get his glasses stolen anytime soon.
Bronco
Wilson
"Become an Onanist, for god's sake. Take some tissues along."
That was the funniest post I have ever read here! Bet rtr is scrambling for the online dictionary.
Thank you! Made my day...Tomorrow, Toys for Tots ride! A micro Strugis.
Bronco
curious, it just seems hypocritical for you to quote Voltaire and Williams on tolerance and empathy then admonish Ben and me, yet not a word to rtr. Maybe you just tolerate people who share your opinions.
Bronco
curious, in response to rtr's personally insulting people, name calling, taunting, and uncivil behavior, all of which are against the regulations of the site...you deem it fit to placate.
But to Benznd and myself you suggest that we are non-social, that we discourage comment and do not invite posters, and, once again, you suggest we leave.
I don't get it. Pretend we, rtr, Bronco, and Benznd are your children. How would you attend our behaviors?
"Mom, if rtr gets to be him, why can't me and Ben be us?"
curious
rtr, I have a nice evening with my husband, come back and find that you had some problems with off topic. I started the dialog with Wilson about religion, I was seeking a little understanding of this person. You may not agree, but I really wanted to know where he was coming from. I also learned as well a little more about the group that posts here.
"Voltaire:
What is tolerance? -- it is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly -- that is the first law of nature."
"Fritz Williams:
Suffering and joy teach us, if we allow them, how to make the leap of empathy, which transports us into the soul and heart of another person. ln those transparent moments we know other people's joys and sorrows, and we care about their concerns as if they were our own."
Wilson, Thank you still for your candor.
Bendznd and Bronco, you do have a tendency to go off into a private non social world, publically, that discourages comment and does not invite posters. I don't know if it is intentional, but it still tends to shut off posting. We could get you a private room.
Bronco
Just read an Ellen Goodman column this morning and I thought it lends some weight to my last post and lends an overall perspective to several columns and comments here these past few weeks. I'll shorten it a bit.
"Let it not be said that right-wing bloggers are encumbered by a sense of humor. Or a fact-checker. Bill Ayers' authorship (Right-wingers claims he was the real author of Obama's "Dreams of my Father") was about as true as the drive-a-stake-in-that-rumor that Obama had been born in Kenya. That fantasy was ranked in The New Yorker magazine as somewhere between "a belief in Santa Claus and 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.' "
The birth myth was, in turn, matched by Glenn Beck's assertion that under Obamacare you could either buy coverage or go to jail. And neck and neck with the fanciful claim by Sarah Palin that health care reform would mean "death panels" for the elderly.
I'm struck by how much hard facts have softened in this time, how much less they seem to matter.
"Truthiness" has exploded alongside a new media that is decidedly not mainstream, that flows into as many rivulets as there are cable channels, points on the radio dial, and unvetted bloggers.
It's now possible to find a group somewhere in Googleland that will agree with anything. Any outlier can find a tribe and a "fact" — Global warming is a hoax! Evolution is a fraud! — that reinforces his own belief.
There is a sense that we don't need science or editing or fact-checking as long as we have crowd-sourcing. We don't have to build opinions on facts; we can build facts on opinions.
I'm not suggesting that newspapers — once defined as the first rough draft of history — are without errors. But there are prices to pay and corrections to be made and standards to be met. When was the last time an Internet birther ran a correction or lost his job?
Those of us who have spent our lives in journalism wake up to daily reports of troubles: newsrooms cut, papers bankrupt.
Hardest of all is to witness the evaporation of a profession that's been the vetting agent for the "reality-based community." A craft that has struggled to be right as often and rigorously as possible.
In a 60 Minutes/Vanity Fair poll last month, readers were asked what professions are likely to disappear. Of the likely candidates, 28 percent chose tobacco farmers, but 26 percent picked newspaper reporters. Only 3 percent thought fact-checkers would become extinct.
Well, I have "news" for you. When the reporters go, so do the facts. And their checkers."
I think the lost pointed sentences here are : There is a sense that we don't need science or editing or fact-checking as long as we have crowd-sourcing. We don't have to build opinions on facts; we can build facts on opinions.
Bronco
Frank's Thursday column "Why don't they just call us heretics?" is pretty good. I'm starting to wonder about agenda-driven "facts" and the why's and wherefores?
If the globe is really warming, why would "they" want us to think it is not?
If the globe is not warming, why would "they" want us to think it is?
I don't trust either side now.
Wilson
Thank you for proving me correct, rtr. Now I'm going to bed. I have read my quota of stupidity for the week and I have to work tomorrow. Gotta print up a batch of marxist/atheist/socialist/communist/fascist/anti-religious/anti-God/anti-American lies for ACORN so Obama can TAX AND STEAL your welfare, er, retirement.
Here's a thought: cloning is the sincerest form of flattery.
JackPoynter
Ben,
Is this him? The piece is considerably longer that the little piece I've transcribed below. You can view the whole thing at the Google Books URL given. Page 75 has a picture of the old boy.
Several books have mention of him; as a major he commanded the third battalion of the Third Cavalry, with General Sigel in Missouri. 11 Feb 1862 his unit won an engagement with Price near Springfield. Lots of other stuff, you can go to Google Books and do a search on "Gen. James Ruggles" to find him. Since he fought in Mo, my gg-grandfather, a private in the 6th Georgia, Co I, would not have encountered him, as he was in Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.
A few paragraphs from "Transactions of the McLean County Historical Society, Volume 3", McLean County Historical Society, 1900, p 74
Google Books
http://books.google.com/books?output=html&id=5-JYAAAAMAAJ&jtp=74
A Few Words for the Bloommgton Commemoration Meeting,
By Gen. James M. Ruggles.
It matters little that forty-four years ago, previous to the time of the Bloomington convention, my name was the only one prominent as the running mate of Governor Bissell for lieutenant governor, that I was one of the vice-presidents of that convention—or that in February previously at a meeting at the capital of Whigs and Free Soil Democrats who were ready for the organization of a party more fully representing the tide of advanced political principles, I was one of the committee associated with Abraham Lincoln and Ebenezer Peck, and prepared the resolutions adopted at the meeting which led to the convention held on the 29th of May, 1856.
It matters much, however, that the convention was held and that a portion of the leading men of both parties came together and took their places beside Abraham Lincoln on a platform of expansion of free territory, enlarged human rights and human liberty, and expanded patriotism, on which basis every man nominated was elected and placed in office.
The time was auspicious. We were then under the last of the old time Democratic governors in Illinois who had apr propriated to his own use about a quarter of a million dollars in state bonds and left the state a ruined man and a political party badly smirched. Since then we have had but one Democratic governor and he has made all other governors quite respectable—comparatively!
Bronco
Wilson, just ignore it. Like a herpes sore, it just keeps coming back to aggravate you and makes you stop having sex. Nice riposte about knuckle-dragging republicans. Let's mark this down: rtr crudely insults Wilson, Wilson parries with wit, rtr screams he's been insulted and goes off on Wilson. You had him pegged last week, Wilson. And the week before. And you are right, don't count on anybody but the self-respecting left to say anything about it. The conserves call it whining...but rtr is just "being himself."
Your thoughts on the Oxygen levels are documented from arctic ice samples though. Something like 12% more oxygen in the air some time before the last Ice Age. Love that Nat-Geo channel.
Rob, thanks for the map! It was spot on since Sarah is in China and Japan bad mouthing the President of the United States for $170,000 a speech. Found her in the Gobi Desert dismissing global warming as a democrat hoax. Easy to spot, she had SPF 100 sunblock on her nose and carrying an umbrella, excuse me, parasol. She remembers you! "...that feller that kept watchin' us when I was book learnin'. Wut ever happened to him?"
"He's in Montana teaching poodles how to hunt wolves," I said.
"Why cain't he jess shoot 'em from airplanes like we do?"
"Isn't that illegal?" I asked.
"Not wolves, silly. Poodles."
We had kyi stew that night. Who knew Lhasa Apso tasted so good?
rtr
Word correction
====Wilson
rtr is getting mean again. The only thing constant about the guy is his utter and incurable stupidity.
====================
Seeing as how you are supposedly new here you are a liar and a clone just like OLD BULL the same old atheist pronouncing your socialist / marxist beliefs so what is your point.
Mean you say, I say you have failed misserablely this week with you ANTI-RELIGIOS and ANTI-AMERICAM beliefs
rtr
Wilson
rtr is getting mean again. The only thing constant about the guy is his utter and incurable stupidity.
====================
Seeing as how you are supposedly new here you are a liar and a clone just like OLD BULL the same old atheist pronouncing your socialist / marxist beliefs so what is your point.
Mean you say, I say you ahve failed misserablely this week with you ANTI-RELIGIOS and ANTI-AMERICAM beliefs.
Wilson
rtr is getting mean again. The only thing constant about the guy is his utter and incurable stupidity.
rtr, curious (one of yours) asked me for my opinion, wanting to know where I stand, why I think the way I do, what my thoughts were about religion. I simply answered her.
You are taunting good and respectable people, my new friends. You insult anyone who has a different view of the world than you (which isn't difficult since yours is the narrowest I have ever witnessed in a person).
I don't know who Old Bull is or even why Bronco would need a clone. He seems quite capable of expressing himself as Bronco.
Go throw your tantrums someplace else. Now that you are back, the free exchange of ideas has come to a stop.
Oh, did I insult you by calling you stupid? Well, that would mean there are no stupid people in the entire world then since you are the most qualified. Become an Onanist, for god's sake. Take some tissues along.
rtr
You know it has been a pretty good week with staying on topic and some VERY good information and truely educational unlike what it has been with the SOCIALISTS running the comment section for months now.
.
We do have to commend Jack, curious, Rob, BadRockBilly, Natres and a few others for that but with an honest look at it Bighorn, Bronco and Benznd and there ilk as usual have added nothing and then came in Wilson like our Old Bull that was Bronco's clone which added zero and his input was only a hatred of chistianity and then has concluded with a political platform building.
Sure will be interesting to see next Sunday's column and where these socialists go with there love of Marxism / Socialism / Communism and Hatred of Christianity instead of adding anything to the education or enlightenment of anyone or the column itself.?
rtr
Hey Benznd, What ever happened to your offer of leaving the comment section that you invited all your liberal friends to go to another comment section somewhere else.
Nobody else want to put up with the likes of you and your kind just like Woody and the Beacon that reject him every time he opens his mouth over there.
rtr
Wilson
Rob, the oxygen level used to be higher back when our ancestors were dragging their knuckles.
We have introduced some CO2 since 1850 but one good volcano and a huge forest fire pukes up as much in a year as our contributions in the last 150 years.
rtr, I'm referring to the 1920's when Rob's and my grandfathers were Republicans.
===============
Are you mathematically and mentally challenged or does 1850 and knuckle draggers like you account for the same thing.
I knew it wouldn’t take to long before you got back to your political platform building.
JUST FOR ONCE, take responsibly for your party and the disaster it is causing will you, NO jobs, Slavery to the government with socialism, More crashing of economy due to Obamas campain pay backs, You name the criminal element and your socialist democrats are involved with it.…!!
You and your God hating ACORN criminal bunch are out dated and you haven’t even been in charge for a year yet.
benznd
When asked to inhibit their response to a "cocaine-cues" video, active cocaine abusers were, on average, able to suppress activity in brain regions linked to drug craving, according to a new study at the U.S. Department of Energy's Brookhaven National Laboratory. The results, to be published in an upcoming issue of NeuroImage, suggest that clinical interventions designed to strengthen these inhibitory responses could help cocaine abusers stop using drugs and avoid relapse.
Kind of interesting when thinking of health care costs for drug rehab and relapse
benznd
Jack, I went to the fitness center and walked 40 minutes at 3.5 mph then did leg presses, etc. I also cleaned the equipment since it belongs to my daughter and son-in-law. I get free access so I try to get there two or three times per week. I am coming close to hulkishness. (-: I be back!
Ay WILSON!!!!, what did ya do, ha, take some oxygen readings when we was knuckledraggers? Huh? Tell us? Can you believe this guy Wilson, claims to know things!! YAH RIGHT!
OK now, this is a documented truth and comes from the DAR enrollment of my great aunt. My great, great grandfather, Gen. James Ruggles served in the IL house with his good friend Abe Lincoln. They were appointed members of the first Republican platform committee in IL.
BadRockBilly
My grandparents were Democrats. Wilson. What is amazing to me is the extreme conditions where life can exist. From the snows on Everest to the bottom of the Oceans, they find evidence of life. From times gone by they find fossils with hard and soft bodies in shale. They say Mars rocks show signs of life. Life is persistant and fills every environment. Life regulates and balances itself and recreates itself. That is some kind of wonderful.
JackPoynter
Now there's an interesting comment...
Wilson, my grandparents were Democrats, along with most people in the South.
What happened was, Nixon's Southern Strategy, which was to welcome the people in the South who felt abandoned by the Democrats, into the Republican party.
Whereupon the liberal Republicans of the North (who were upset and confused by that,) migrated on over to the Democratic party, which accelerated the exodus of Southern Democrats to the Republicans, which accelerated the exodus of the liberal Republicans to the Democrats, which ...
As a result, the two parties, Democrats and Republicans, did a ponderous pirouette arond the center, and each wound up where the other had been.
Politics is enough to make a cat laugh, sometimes...
The lesson to be learned from this, is that the divide in the country is not between Democrats and Republicans, it's between small-c conservatives and little-l liberals, as opposed to the capital-letter extremist wings of the current parties.
And since the actual human content of conservatives and liberals really doesn't change much, we are actually defining two separate cultures, each with its own credo and aversion symbols.
Which means...a number of interesting things, but this post is long enough already.
Wilson
rtr, I'm referring to the 1920's when Rob's and my grandfathers were Republicans.
JackPoynter
The following is ref
http://serc.carleton.edu/usingdata/datasheets/Vostok_IceCore.html
Title of site: Exploring Paleo Climatology in the Classroom using Vostok Ice Core Data.
Collection Methods
Ice core samples are obtained by drilling a long cylinder of ice (approximately 5 inches in diameter). The core is separated into 5 meter long segments and stored for further analyses. Electrical measurements are performed and stratigraphy is analyzed. Ice from the core is melted to measure the percentage of CO2 and various chemical techniques such as mass spectrometry and gas chromatography are used to analyze isotopic composition.
Limitations and Sources of Error
Sources of error in reconstructing climate history using ice core data include determining age of the ice and correcting for gas exchange in snow prior to trapping of gas within bubbles enclosed in the compressed ice. Given the current understanding of glacial cycles, dating determined by techniques such as flow and compression modelling or using deuterium as a proxy for age yield robust measurements.
====================================
In the above paragraph, the key phrase is "Given the current understanding of glacial cycles, dating determined by techniques such as flow and compression modelling or using deuterium as a proxy for age..."
What that means is, the "raw data" that you can download has already been massaged to create a "proxy for age." And the ice core was melted and sampled according to some process which assigned values for CO2 and other gases.
The discovery of what these processes and algorithms are, is what the fuss is all about. I know what you want to do is go to their data, where they "measured the CO2 in a bubble," but that isn't how it works.
My problem, which is the same problem a lot of other people have, is "how did they determine the CO2 levels," and "how did they then further massage the data with other processes" to produce the entries in their graphs.
The algorithms that these folks produced involved a _lot_ of work, and a lot of scientific prestige is bound up their results; that's why they don't want to give their hard work away. But, and this is a huge but, we, the taxpayer, paid them to do that work, and the Freedom of Information Acts in both Britain and the USA guarantee our right to look at the detail. And that didn't happen when requested, thus the FOIA criminal investigation in Britain, and the congressional investigation of Professor Michael Mann.
Literally trillions of dollars in funding for global climate change is involved in this, and whether or not that process gets funded, is another component. That's what happened in Australia, the voters looked at what was going on, and replaced the leader of the Liberal Party (doesn't mean what you think it means,) with a skeptic.
The parties in Australia and Britain are called "liberal" and "labour". We have no equivalent to the labour party in this country; the "liberal" party in this country would be divided into Republican and Democrat.
Further, aside from funding of scientific projects, there is an immense amount of money being invested in cap-and-trade (USA) and emissions-trading (Britain and the Commonwealth, and Europe.) All of these investments will go down the tube if some version of cap-and-trade and emissions-trading is not passed. You may say, "I can't believe people would lie about something as important at global climate change." I hope you're not that naive. Remember that I posted recently about the former manager of NASA's GISS being convicted of steering no-bid contracts to his wife's company, and that's small potatoes indeed to the money available in AGW. NASA's Goddard Space Sciences Institute is the owner and distributor of NASA's climatic research data.
Enough already. Good luck with the data.
rtr
Wilson
Rob, the oxygen level used to be higher back when our ancestors were dragging their knuckles.
=================
Speaking of knuckle draggers what did you do, Take an oxygen level reading a million years ago?
JackPoynter
NBC had a report on the evening news tonight, for the first time that I'm aware of. They gave the company line, but it's a crack in the stonewall.
JackPoynter
That's a question you should maybe ask at ClimateAudit.com, Rob, or RealClimate.com, or both. The first is skeptic, the second is AGW. You can go to the following url for the NOAA gate for the raw data:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok.html
If you want to do your own search on Google, the term is "Vostok Ice Core Data"
Wilson
DNight, try looking up the word 'abuse' in any dictionary would be my advice. It has nothing at all to do with a different opinion or seeking eternal life. But thanks for the chuckle. Here's a question for you, is it possible the universe always existed?
Rob, the oxygen level used to be higher back when our ancestors were dragging their knuckles. We have introduced some CO2 since 1850 but one good volcano and a huge forest fire pukes up as much in a year as our contributions in the last 150 years. (Indirect quote from Bryson's A Short History of Nearly Everything.)
Rob123
Can anyone steer me towards a nice, TRUST WORTHY graph showing the CO2 levels of the earth over the last 350 to 500 thousand years? Preferably from Ice Core samples. Right now, we are at approx 380PPM of CO2. Up 100PPM over the past 200+ years. The Earth has seen higher readings, right? I have an intelligent person, who I respect (thus don't really want to jump in his face without data to support my opinion) telling me that the Earth has rarely, if ever, been above 350PPM of CO2?
rtr
This is kind of a cool subject, I was in Silver Valley Idaho when Mt. St Helens went off approximately 300 miles away as the crow flies and it dropped any where from 2 ½ to 4 inches of ash on us depending on where you were kind of like when it snows, A little higher elevation and you got more ash.
I woke up to go to work at Bunker Hill on swing shift and when I went outside it was like the end of the world with warm ash falling on you and or the mines had blown up I didn’t know which one but it was awsome. “Kind of scary”
The thing to note is Portland didn’t get hardly any ash even though it was only about 50 miles from Mt St Helens.
My point is Jack would probably get more ash in Kansas than Kalispell due to prevailing winds if Yellow Stone did blew.
I was in Yellow Stone about five years ago and they are actually closing some of the pull off places do to hot water coming up out of the ground and flooding some of them restrooms and parking lots that were high and dry years ago.
The last eruption at Yellow Stone was approximately 645,000 years ago.
http://www.earthmountainview.com/yellowstone/yellowstone.htm
Follow this to a live Yellow Stone web cam
http://www.nps.gov/yell/photosmultimedia/yellowstonelive.htm
curious
http://www.eia.doe.gov/
An interesting site if data and information is really wanted. The Energy Conferences are also available, if you wanted to listen the discussions relative to carbon tax, cap and trade, business development for energy sector.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/conference/2009/session10.html, is the direct link for the 2009 energy conference held in April.
DNight
Wow, this is my first time getting in on one of these types of political discussions. These are great arguments!
Wilson I tried to help you out with the "Report Abuse" button...I kept hitting it on all of your posts but you woudln't go away? What could I do next?
JackPoynter
Ben, I would do some of those one-armed liftups, myself, but the doctors won't let me. I suspect this is actually a quality of life issue, but since I want to have a little life to have some quality in, I'd better not.
JackPoynter
That's true, the odds are with us (BTW, that's 932+ Kilometers. 932+ miles would be about 10/6 as much.)
OTOH, I keep remembering the old guy who lived on the slopes of Mt St Helens, in an old cabin. When they interviewed him, after his having been told to evacuate and wouldn't, he said something like, "This volcano has done this before, and nothing much has happened. I'm not going anywhere." And those of old enough to remember know that within a few days, he, his cabin, the mountain, and all the life in the valley was no more. The valley re-greened, but he isn't coming back.
Bronco, what you're doing is invoking Bayesian logic, which is based on the idea that the more things remain the same, the more likely they are to remain the same.
Those of us who pay attention, know that all things come to an end, all things change eventually, and it might be a good idea to pay attention to the seismic tremor rate and caldera inflation, as well as mean time between eruptions.
Yellowstone seems to be a little cooler than they thought, according to an article I read this morning while looking for information on Mauna Loa. But vigilance is always appropriate.
JackPoynter
Bless his heart, Bronco can probably supply his own wind.
Which reminds me: sometime I need to let you all know what various Southernisms mean, like "Bless your heart," and calling someone "sugar."
Or maybe I won't, that might be contra-indicated.
Bronco
Thanks, Jack. I will rest well tonight know there's a volcanic plume 932 miles deep just 200 miles away. Thanks, buddy.
Kinda like being within 1000 miles of Yellowstone's 45-mile wide caldera that erupts on average every 60,000 years. Note: last eruption, 70,000 yrs ago. Sleep well, Kalispell.
benznd
We, I am headed to the fitness center, local pub, to get in shape. Like Bronco, I guess I just try to add a little humor. But unike Bronco, who can speaks Latin, I get bashed. OK, my point has been, and I am sure that I don't even need to go there, my point is to make it clear to the right, that I understand what they are saying. Don't agree, just understand intelectually. And offer a solution to what is identified as the problem. And how's that worken for ya? It ain't worken! I think I am too transparent. Transparent: dad on east coast and mom on west coast. Sometimes I just kinda crack mysef up, perhaps that one was a bit korny.
Rob, Guiness Book stuff. Yet, what I read from you is much the same as evolution or natura selection. Adapt or die. The transformation of the human species was a question of gaining the upper hand on the competition. Follow the brain development. Very component, every transaction so to speak, was a necessity. One transaction forced the development of yet another.
I read a recent study relative to MRSA. It seems the cells are so adaptive and based upon self preservation and reproduction, will do whatever is necessary to enhance themselves. Manipuation of the cells is not simply based upon scientific intervention, it is based upon the cell's need to live and thrive. Perhaps we all knew that, but in reality I don't think we connect this to our "world." Every act, every war, every discovery, every culture developed from it's own distinctive need to exist which was based upon simple needs. Organisms that live and breathe, so-to-speak. They are all connected. Cause and effect, cause and effect, if-then.
I think after I get mysef into SHAPE, I shall walk to the corn field nearby, and sing of much simplier times. Ba Ba Back Sheep would do it.
Now I am not going back to reread to correct errors as my SUV is running, so take it as it is. Thank you, thank you very much.
Rob123
Jack.....Bronco is already on a small boat rowing North of the Islands looking for a good Trade Wind to Alaska. He has one of Wilson's copies of "The Song of Sarah" from the Old Testament, and is hoping to find the Real Sarah. I hope he makes it, kind of. However, the Map I gave him only has Latitude and the watch I gave him had old batteries. But Sarah and I are waiting for him, patiently. A couple false alarms already. Usually pretty good wind this time of year. I'm sure if he keeps his chin up he'll be just fine.
JackPoynter
Trying to keep the topic freshened up for you, Bronco.
The IPCC has reversed itself and now wants an investigation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8394483.stm
Report of John Holdren and the Obama Administration's take on leaked Climate emails.
Based on one of Holdren's comments, Mann and Jones may be going under the bus.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/12/white-house-pushes-back-on-climate-change-email-controversy.html
From Science Daily News, an article on the big volcanic plume under the main Hawaiian island, where one of the NOAA observatories for collecting CO2 resides:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091203141905.htm
That last article says the magma plume goes down farther than 932 km, and is as wide as the main island itself, and has been continuously emitting greenhouse gasses for a very long time indeed. Those of us old enough to remember the Mt St. Helens eruption will recognize that it might be a good time to pack up the ol' catamaran and start paddling.
Rob123
"Benznd, you make a horrible conservative." Well put, Bronco! (-: I just didn't have the strength of Will to break the news. Believe me buddy, your IQ is High, and your politics are Liberal. If your having a transference problem, I'm only $145.00 an hour, and I accept Medicaid, Medicare, or Payment in Kind.
And Bronco, think how easy it would have been to be an Alter Boy and not have to memorize 'Confiteor deo omnipotenti.....' All we had to do was stand up to the priest and argue the Nicene Council......ya baby......(-:
curious
Bronco, "The Nicean Council, 325 AD, granted souls to women (before that they had none)"
then I am now lucky, Of course that assumes souls have a sex orientation, Back then the value of women, same as in some countries now, was low on the totem pole. Of course they always had the sheep and camels. We could have eliminated the problem of excess population and global warming. Unless through evolution, the perpetuation of the species through sheep were to happen. Would that be so baaaad for you all? They don't smell as good either.
Bronco
Well put, Rob. The Purification process (you're alluding to the Buddha-ing of the world, I assume) hopefully is Karmic in nature like golf is to me. Terror cannot be justified in any circumstance unless Karma herself deems it fitting and proper. Let me add I give holy things to my dogs. They are particularly fond of Sausage Crucifixes.
Bighorn, refuge to you is home to me. Endless and useless debate over the same issues week after week finds me flailing at my centeredness. We usually bring up all the points by Monday night, go off topic for a few days, cut and paste, post lengthy comments out of desperation or ennui, then squabble over who has the most good sense until it heats up again Saturday night when rtr throws the last punches below the belt. I put in my two cents early, usually the same pennies I offered last time the subject came up, then dance around the edge of the fire taunting and trying to get a laugh in an enlightening sort of way. But some of us learn and some won't. Recognizing Fear and Blame helps but it's a good game all in all.
Wilson and curious, a side note about Christianity: The Nicean Council, 325 AD, granted souls to women (before that they had none) and chose the four gospels out of about a hundred choices. Then set about destroying the others to eradicate "heresy." They also decided that Jesus was the actual Son of God and not a figurative one. Imagine that: for 300 years women had no souls and Jesus was not the son of God. Those poor lost souls (all male), not believing John 3:16.
Benznd, you make a horrible conservative.
curious
"The United States can demonstrate cooperation with developing nations in the following ways:
Funding tropical forest protection in developing countries, which will help reduce global heat-trapping emissions as well as promote sustainable development. Tropical deforestation has been estimated to account for up to 15 percent of the world’s global warming pollution, and the world cannot fully address global warming without addressing this source.
Funding international adaptation to help the world’s most vulnerable peoples adjust to the effects of global warming from which they are already suffering. Adaptation actions will reduce or avoid tensions around such issues as water sources and food shortages, thus alleviating global security problems.
Funding the sharing and transfer of clean technology to developing countries will help these nations to lower their global warming pollution. U.S. businesses and green workers could benefit from the exports of clean technology"
source; http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/forest_solutions/international-climate-and-US.html
Also note the organization that puts this out is also not a friend of the United States, http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6631
Bottom line, they want our commitment in the form of money, you would think it would be a shared global responsibility with other countries in the pot as well. But I don't see the agencies seeking put "your money where your mouth is" philosopy to other countries. I don't see it as our baby sitting role to save every small country out there. Maybe I didn't read it correctly, but everywhere I look, there is some assumption that the US is the Mommy state to the world.
curious
I figured it out, largest based on total emissions, so based on total emissions, in order for top 10
China, United States, Russia, India, Japan, Germany, Canada, United Kingdom. South Korea, Iran
But if based per capita;
China, Russia, Canada, United States, Brazil, Australia, India, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Iran
per sq mile
China, Australia, United States, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Russia, South Korea, Germany, South Africa, Japan
I would think that the number should be based to some level on population and area, The US is still bad, but other countries come up the rank when density is factored. The real bad part is China is number one no matter how you slice it.
rtr
Just for GJ British Petrolem has a very small part of it's company that makes and sells solar panels is the reason for the sunflower and the green along with the fact that it would stand to gain huge from a Cap and Trade tax.
curious
So does anybody know, since China and the US is classed as like the 2nd largest CO2 contributor in the world, is it per capita, or square mile of land?
Rob123
soooo, ne forte conculcent eas pedibus suis is actually a warning to the Robespierre's of the World to watch out as the Purification process comes back and bites one's own @ss?
Bighorn0216
One more splash of tequila before I plunge into my nefarious work.
From this morning's reading, compliments Pema Chodron:
"6.99
Those who stay close by me, then,
To ruin my good name and cut me down to size
Are surely there protecting me
From falling into ruin in the realms of sorrow.
"With verse 99, Shantideva starts a section on the value of troublemakers. Considering that he lived in a monastery where he was widely disrespected, this may have been one of his principal practices. He probably had ample opportunity to apply the advice he gives here.
"Those who give us a hard time, who are difficult to be around or who constantly blow our cover, are the very ones who show us where we're stuck. The great meditation master Atisha always traveled with his belligerent Bengali tea-boy because it kept him honest. Without his ill-tempered servant to test him, he might have been able to deceive himself about his degree of equanimity. Troublemakers up the ante: if we can practice patience with them, we can practice it with anyone."
Bighorn0216
Bronco:
Bighorn, ut humiliter opinor, you and Wilson are casting margaritas ante porcos.
______________________________
Agreed--and a margarita is a terrible thing to waste. Just taking some refuge outside the ring between bouts. "All work and no play...," and so on.
Rob123
Hum?....Long read, but interesting. It seems that Republican Bankers can also smell $money?......
"Carbon Capitalists Warming to Climate Market Using Derivatives Share Business"
By Lisa Kassenaar
"Dec. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Across Uganda, thousands of women warm supper over new, $8 orange-painted stoves. The clay-and- metal pots burn about two-thirds the charcoal of the open-fire cooking typical of East Africa, where forests are being chopped down in the struggle to feed the region’s 125 million people.
Four thousand miles away, at the Charles Hurst Land Rover dealership in southwest London, a Range Rover Vogue sells for 90,000 pounds ($151,000). A blue windshield sticker proclaims that the gasoline-powered truck’s first 45,000 miles (72,421 kilometers) will be carbon neutral.
That’s because Land Rover, official purveyor of 4x4s to Queen Elizabeth II, is helping Ugandans cut their greenhouse gas emissions with those new stoves.
These two worlds came together in the offices of Blythe Masters at JPMorgan Chase & Co. Masters, 40, oversees the New York bank’s environmental businesses as the firm’s global head of commodities. JPMorgan brokered a deal in 2007 for Land Rover to buy carbon credits from ClimateCare, an Oxford, England-based group that develops energy-efficiency projects around the world. Land Rover, now owned by Mumbai-based Tata Motors Ltd., is using the credits to offset some of the CO2 emissions produced by its vehicles.
For Wall Street, these kinds of voluntary carbon deals are just a dress rehearsal for the day when the U.S. develops a mandatory trading program for greenhouse gas emissions. JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Morgan Stanley will be watching closely as 192 nations gather in Copenhagen next week to try to forge a new climate-change treaty that would, for the first time, include the U.S. and China.
U.S. Cap and Trade
Those two economies are the biggest emitters of CO2, the most ubiquitous of the gases found to cause global warming. The Kyoto Protocol, whose emissions targets will expire in 2012, spawned a carbon-trading system in Europe that the banks hope will be replicated in the U.S.
The U.S. Senate is debating a clean-energy bill that would introduce cap and trade for U.S. emissions. A similar bill passed the House of Representatives in June. The plan would transform U.S. industry by forcing the biggest companies -- such as utilities, oil and gas drillers and cement makers -- to calculate the amounts of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases they emit and then pay for them.
Estimates of the potential size of the U.S. cap-and-trade market range from $300 billion to $2 trillion.
Banks Moving In
Banks intend to become the intermediaries in this fledgling market. Although U.S. carbon legislation may not pass for a year or more, Wall Street has already spent hundreds of millions of dollars hiring lobbyists and making deals with companies that can supply them with “carbon offsets” to sell to clients.
JPMorgan, for instance, purchased ClimateCare in early 2008 for an undisclosed sum. This month, it paid $210 million for Eco-Securities Group Plc, the biggest developer of projects used to generate credits offsetting government-regulated carbon emissions. Financial institutions have also been investing in alternative energy, such as wind and solar power, and lending to clean-technology entrepreneurs.
The banks are preparing to do with carbon what they’ve done before: design and market derivatives contracts that will help client companies hedge their price risk over the long term. They’re also ready to sell carbon-related financial products to outside investors.
Masters says banks must be allowed to lead the way if a mandatory carbon-trading system is going to help save the planet at the lowest possible cost. And derivatives related to carbon must be part of the mix, she says. Derivatives are securities whose value is derived from the value of an underlying commodity -- in this case, CO2 and other greenhouse gases.
‘Heavy Involvement’
“This requires a massive redirection of capital,” Masters says. “You can’t have a successful climate policy without the heavy, heavy involvement of financial institutions.”
As a young London banker in the early 1990s, Masters was part of JPMorgan’s team developing ideas for transferring risk to third parties. She went on to manage credit risk for JPMorgan’s investment bank.
Among the credit derivatives that grew from the bank’s early efforts was the credit-default swap. A CDS is a contract that functions like insurance by protecting debt holders against default. In 2008, after U.S. home prices plunged, the cost of protection against subprime-mortgage bond defaults jumped. Insurer American International Group Inc., which had sold billions in CDSs, was forced into government ownership, roiling markets and helping trigger the worst global recession since the 1930s.
Lawmakers Leery
Now, that story -- and the entire role the banks played in the credit crisis -- has become central to the U.S. carbon debate. Washington lawmakers are leery of handing Wall Street anything new to trade because the bitter taste of the credit debacle lingers. And their focus is on derivatives. Along with CDSs, the most-notorious derivatives are the collateralized-debt obligations they often insured. CDOs are bundles of subprime mortgages and other debt that were sliced into tranches and sold to investors.
“People are going to be cutting up carbon futures, and we’ll be in trouble,” says Maria Cantwell, a Democratic senator from Washington state. “You can’t stay ahead of the next tool they’re going to create.”
Cantwell, 51, proposed in November that U.S. state governments be given the right to ban unregulated financial products. “The derivatives market has done so much damage to our economy and is nothing more than a very-high-stakes casino -- except that casinos have to abide by regulations,” she wrote in a press release.
Jet Fuel, Wheat
In carbon markets, many of the derivatives would be futures, options and swaps that would allow a company to lock in a price for carbon like it would for any other commodity related to its business, Masters says. Such derivatives are negotiated every day by airlines trying to guarantee future prices for jet fuel and farmers setting a future price for their wheat crop. A large, liquid market in carbon credits would serve to keep their price low, JPMorgan says.
“The reason why this is important is not because it’s going to create a new forum for us to buy and sell; it’s because the scale of what’s being contemplated here is absolutely enormous,” Masters says. “It’s going to affect your kids and my kids. The worst thing would be to introduce legislation that doesn’t achieve the environmental goal; that would be a crime of epic proportions.”
Not Convinced
Michelle Chan, a senior policy analyst in San Francisco for Friends of the Earth, isn’t convinced.
“Should we really create a new $2 trillion market when we haven’t yet finished the job of revamping and testing new financial regulation?” she asks. Chan says that, given their recent history, the banks’ ability to turn climate change into a new commodities market should be curbed.
“What we have just been woken up to in the credit crisis -- to a jarring and shocking degree -- is what happens in the real world,” she says.
Even George Soros, the billionaire hedge fund operator, says money managers would find ways to manipulate cap-and-trade markets. “The system can be gamed,” Soros, 79, remarked at a London School of Economics seminar in July. “That’s why financial types like me like it -- because there are financial opportunities.”
Masters says U.S. carbon markets should be transparent and regulated by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. Standardized derivatives contracts -- securities that can be bought and sold by anyone -- should be traded on exchanges or centrally cleared, she says. The British-born Masters, who has an economics degree from Cambridge University, took over JPMorgan’s commodities business in 2007.
Allowances, Offsets
In a U.S. cap-and-trade market, the government would allot tradable pollution permits, called allowances, to emitters of CO2 and other greenhouse gases. The market would also likely include offsets -- credits generated by companies such as Eco-Securities that would have to demonstrate to U.S. agencies running the program that the offsets mitigate carbon pollution.
Point Carbon, an Oslo-based firm that analyzes environmental markets, estimates that by 2020 the U.S. carbon market could surge to more than $300 billion. That’s based on an assumption that the allowances, each representing a ton of carbon dioxide taken out of the atmosphere, would trade for $15. Bart Chilton, a commissioner of the CFTC, which would likely be one of the regulators of the carbon market, says it could grow as large as $2 trillion.
Goldman Building
As they wait for a U.S. cap-and-trade system to be introduced, the big banks are busy building, not trading. Goldman Sachs, for example, has fewer than 10 traders dedicated to carbon around the world.
“Carbon right now is not about sitting in front of a screen and clicking,” says Gerrit Nicholas, Goldman’s head of North American environmental commodities. “It’s all about running around talking to clients about what they can expect, how big it can be and what their risk is.”
Abyd Karmali, who heads global carbon emissions at Bank of America Merrill Lynch in London, says companies, banks and investors are all watching Congress.
“A lot of people are focused on Copenhagen, but what happens in Washington on federal cap and trade is, arguably, more important,” says Karmali, who’s president of the Carbon Markets and Investors Association, an international trade group. “This market is still in its very early stages. U.S. cap and trade would make an order of magnitude of difference.”
‘Ruinous Course’
Although U.S. President Barack Obama and his economic team support cap and trade, Washington politics could defeat it. The House bill passed in June by just seven votes, and senators on both sides of the aisle worry that imposing pollution caps on industry will result in higher energy bills for consumers at a time when U.S. unemployment tops 10 percent. Karl Rove, former president George W. Bush’s deputy chief of staff, wrote in Newsweek magazine in November that cap and trade “would put America on a ruinous course.”
Republican Senator James Inhofe of Oklahoma, who in 2006 called Nobel Prize winner and former Vice President Al Gore “full of cr@p” on global warming, boycotted committee meetings on the Senate bill in November.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on Nov. 18 that climate-change legislation may not be discussed until the spring, prompting speculation among others in the Senate that the bill won’t be passed before Congressional elections in 2010. The Obama administration is also driving to overhaul U.S. health care and develop proposals to push down unemployment.
House, Senate Bills
U.S. cap and trade, as currently configured in both the House and Senate bills, would mean the government sets an upper limit on emissions of seven greenhouse gases, including CO2, methane and nitrous oxide, for thousands of power plants, refineries and factories. Over time, the caps would fall, pushing emitters to adopt clean-air technology.
The government would give some pollution allowances to companies free to help them meet their caps during the first years of the program. Emitters who invest in cutting their pollution would have allowances to sell; those that don’t would have to buy.
The allowances -- similar to those that sold in Europe in mid-November for 13.5 euros ($20) -- would be tradable on an exchange or, if Congress allows it, between parties in an over- the-counter market. The credits garnered through offset projects such as the stoves in Uganda are distinct from allowances in that they may be generated on the other side of the world.
Accounting for Carbon
U.S. companies would account for carbon in long-term strategic plans, bankers say. For instance, utilities such as American Electric Power Co., which produces power from coal, would hedge the price of carbon over periods as long as a decade or more. Columbus, Ohio-based AEP is the biggest U.S. greenhouse gas emitter in the Standard & Poor’s 500, according to the London-based Carbon Disclosure Project, which collects such data. Companies like AEP would retain financial institutions to come up with customized derivatives contracts to help them manage their risk.
Derivatives contracts designed for a particular company or transaction, known as over-the-counter derivatives, are a hot- button issue in the larger debate over how the U.S. banking system should be regulated. Most CDSs and CDOs are OTC derivatives. They are created and traded privately -- not on any exchange -- and can be illiquid and opaque, says Andy Stevenson, a financial analyst for the Natural Resources Defense Council, an environmental group that supports the Senate legislation. The House cap-and-trade bill bans OTC derivatives, requiring that all carbon trading be done on exchanges.
OTC Derivatives
The bankers say such a ban would be a mistake. OTC derivatives are a $600 trillion market, much of which consists of interest-rate swaps designed to hedge risks for individual companies. “It’s a concern of ours if they limit the market,” says Pat Hemlepp, a spokesman for AEP. “It reduces the options when it comes to cap and trade, and we have told people that on the Hill. We do feel it’s best to have banks and other parties able to participate.”
The banks and companies may get their way on carbon derivatives in separate legislation now being worked out in Congress. In October, the House Financial Services Committee, headed by Representative Barney Frank, a Democrat from Massachusetts, approved a bill that would require collateral for all derivatives trading between financial institutions. And broker-dealers such as JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs would be forced to clear most derivatives contracts on regulated exchanges or through so-called swap-execution facilities. However, the new rules would not apply to end-users -- companies such as AEP that use derivatives to hedge operational risks.
Price Collar
The Senate environment bill, dubbed Kerry-Boxer for Senators John Kerry of Massachusetts and Barbara Boxer of California, the two Democrats who introduced it, contains little detail on how the cap-and-trade market would work. It sets a price floor of $11 per ton on carbon. The bill also creates a strategic reserve of allowances that the government could use to flood the market if the price of carbon shoots up.
“It will be the best-regulated market in the country,” Stevenson says. “The effort is to make all of the trading known to the regulator. That wasn’t the case in the mortgage market.”
Wall Street sees profits at every stage of the carbon- trading process. Banks would make money by helping clients manage their carbon risk, by trading carbon for their own accounts and by making loans to companies that invest to cut greenhouse gas emissions.
Chicago Climate Exchange
A clear U.S. price on carbon, determined in a large market, would help drive billions of dollars into investments to clean the air, says Richard Sandor, founder and chairman of the Chicago Climate Exchange and the Chicago Climate Futures Exchange. He is also the principal architect of the interest- rate futures market.
“What’s important is the price signal,” Sandor says. “It will stimulate inventive activity and cause behavior to change.” The Chicago Climate Exchange, the biggest U.S. voluntary greenhouse-gas-emissions trading system, trades 180,000 tons of carbon a day, up from 40,000 tons in 2006.
Over time, carbon, like other commodities, needs markets linked around the world, Goldman’s Nicholas says.
“If you believe the science and that something needs to be done about this, the market probably needs to be big,” he says. “Carbon could become an important commodity. I’m not saying it will be bigger than others, but it will be another important business for us.”
Polluters Only
Critics, including Senator Cantwell, espouse a smaller, less complex market in which pollution permits would be publicly exchanged only among fossil-fuel producers. Such a system may block progress on the environmental goals, says JPMorgan’s Masters.
“We say, ‘Let’s incentivize people to have the lowest-cost opportunities to avoid carbon emissions,’” she says.
Masters has been dealing with complex securities since she did a summer internship on JPMorgan’s London derivatives desk while she was at Cambridge. She joined the desk full time soon after graduating in 1991. The derivatives group’s task was to find ways to spread the risk of JPMorgan’s loans, partly to reduce the amount of capital it was required to hold in reserve against them.
Offloading Risk
In 1994, Exxon Corp. needed a credit line after it was threatened with a $5 billion fine for spilling 10.8 million gallons (40.9 million liters) of oil into the ocean off Alaska in 1989. Masters asked the London-based European Bank for Reconstruction and Development to take on the Exxon risk in exchange for an annual fee paid by JPMorgan, according to “Fool’s Gold,” a book by Gillian Tett (Free Press, 2009) that chronicles the history of credit derivatives at JPMorgan. The loan would remain on JPMorgan’s books and be insured by the EBRD, an international bank owned by 61 countries that supports development projects in Central Europe.
The bankers called the contract a credit-default swap.
Masters left the credit derivatives unit in 2001 to do other jobs at the bank. From 2004 to 2007, she served as chief financial officer of the investment bank. Since she took over the commodities division in 2007, its staff has almost doubled to 400 employees. The firm added Bear Energy to the division when it acquired Bear Stearns Cos. in the March 2008 heat of the credit crisis.
In December 2008, Masters led the purchase of UBS AG’s agriculture business and Canadian commodities operations. She now sits in a corner office in Bear’s former Madison Avenue tower. Outside her glass door are rows of traders making markets in metals and oil futures.
Subprime Carbon
Friends of the Earth’s Chan is working hard to prevent the banks from adding carbon to their repertoire. She titled a March FOE report “Subprime Carbon?” In testimony on Capitol Hill, she warned, “Wall Street won’t just be brokering in plain carbon derivatives -- they’ll get creative.”
Sitting in Cafe Madeleine, a small sandwich shop on a hilly stretch of California Street in San Francisco, Chan, 37, talks over coffee about her campaign. She’s brought her own ceramic mug from her crammed office across the street.
Chan started at FOE -- the biggest network of environmental groups in the world, with offices in 77 countries -- on a six- month fellowship after she graduated from the University of California, Los Angeles in 1994. Her first job was to pin responsibility for what FOE regarded as environmentally damaging projects on the banks that loaned the enterprises money.
Three Gorges Dam
In 1997, Chan uncovered and helped publicize loans to China’s Three Gorges Dam by banks including Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch. Since then, Wall Street banks have sought Friends of the Earth’s help in burnishing their environmental image.
In 2005, Chan worked with Goldman Sachs to write an environmental policy statement for the firm, she says.
Carbon isn’t like other commodities, Chan says. The government’s goal to reduce pollution means it will gradually diminish the number of allowances it issues, and that will be a powerful incentive for speculators to try to corner the market and drive up the price, she says.
While banks say they’re a long way from packaging securities from environmental credits now, Chan points to two deals that Zurich-based Credit Suisse Group AG completed in 2007 and 2008 that each combined more than 20 different offset projects, then sliced them into tranches and sold them to investors. The securities were the equivalent of carbon CDOs, Chan says.
Boom and Bust
Chan has an ally in hedge fund manager Michael Masters, founder of Masters Capital Management LLC, based in St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands. He says speculators will end up controlling U.S. carbon prices, and their participation could trigger the same type of boom-and-bust cycles that have buffeted other commodities.
In February 2009 House testimony, Masters -- who is no relation to Blythe Masters -- estimated that the early 2008 price bubbles in crude oil, corn and other commodities cost U.S. consumers more than $110 billion.
The hedge fund manager says that banks will attempt to inflate the carbon market by recruiting investors from hedge funds and pension funds.
“Wall Street is going to sell it as an investment product to people that have nothing to do with carbon,” he says. “Then suddenly investment managers are dominating the asset class, and nothing is related to actual supply and demand. We have seen this movie before.”
Companies Need Banks
Still, companies need the financial markets to help them drive down their greenhouse gas emissions at a reasonable price, says the NRDC’s Stevenson. “There are trillions of dollars needed to make this transition, and companies need the banks,” says Stevenson, a former trader for London-based hedge fund firm Brevan Howard Asset Management LLP.
Stevenson dismisses as overblown the concern that banks will soon be packaging greenhouse gas allowances into securities that look like CDOs. The banks stand to make more money, he says, as lenders to companies that need to invest in new power plants and factories to reduce their emissions. “I would argue that this is only a bonanza for the banks in that they get to go back to their day jobs -- which is lending money,” Stevenson says. “I’m suspect of them generating a lot from carbon trading itself in the early years.”
Northeast Test Case
A relatively small-scale cap-and-trade effort called the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative tells a cautionary tale. RGGI is a CO2 reduction program established by a group of northeastern and mid-Atlantic states in 2003 with a goal of cutting CO2 emissions from power plants in the region 10 percent by 2018. Ten states are now members. Trading in the companies’ pollution permits began in September 2008 -- in the middle of the financial crisis. As of mid-November 2009, prices of the pollution permits were down 50 percent, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
Meanwhile, the 10 best-performing investment funds with climate change or clean energy as a central goal all plunged 40 percent or more in 2008, according to data compiled by London- based New Energy Finance. The shrinking global economy sapped momentum for developing new environmental projects.
“To mobilize capital now and begin a transformation to new energy technologies is a very risky business,” says Ken Newcombe, founder of C-Quest Capital, a Washington-based carbon finance business that invests in offsets. “Returns have to be reasonable to take on those risks.”
Risk Capital Vital
Newcombe is the former head of Goldman’s U.S. carbon market origination and sales department and one of the world’s first carbon traders. He holds a Ph.D. in energy and natural resource development from the Australian National University. Private money, including capital from banks, hedge funds and other investors, must keep flowing into the system to realize global environmental goals that the Copenhagen meetings will try to hash out, he says.
“The ultimate objective is economic efficiency,” Newcombe says. “How can we reduce the cost of implementing important public policy? Having a pool of risk capital is absolutely vital to the smooth introduction of a cap-and-trade regime in the U.S.”
As Washington debates climate policy in the shadow of the recent financial meltdown, lawmakers have a right to be wary, Newcombe says.
“There’s legitimate concern that there may be unseemly profits or untenable risks,” he says. “But a problem now is that the critical objective of stabilizing the financial system could lead to an overregulation of the carbon market.”
‘Such a Fog’
Meanwhile, the industrial firms that would be affected by cap and trade are eager for the game to begin, says Lew Nash, a Morgan Stanley executive director and the firm’s U.S. point person on the carbon markets.
“There is such a fog right now in terms of how the legislation is going to work,” Nash says. “There is a real economic desire here for price signals that will permit the market to properly price carbon. Our customers have little choice but to participate in this evolving market.”
Nash says his clients aren’t just looking for help figuring out how to use carbon trading to manage their emissions caps. Pricing carbon will also set the tone for strategic investments. If a company wants to build a new factory, for instance, it’s going to need to factor prospective carbon emissions into its construction and operational plans, Nash says.
Supporters of cap and trade see, over many years, a remaking of the U.S. industrial landscape and a sharp reduction in the gases that cause global warming. Little will happen, though, until the debate is resolved between the bankers who want more liquidity."
Rob123
Fun gal.....BP bought the retail and refining arms of Amoco in 1998, while Chevron (another of the 7 Sisters) bought the Lubricating Oils division of Amoco (yet another of the 7 Sisters) . The 90's was a real family reunion in the oil Patch.
Rob123
Fun gal.....BP bought the retail and refining arms of Amoco in 1998, while Chevron (another of the 7 Sisters) bought the Lubricating Oils division of Amoco (yet another of the 7 Sisters) . The 90's was a real family reunion in the oil Patch.
Rob123
rtr: "For the Record:
"•In 2000, British Petroleum......." That's really a light weight, self serving analysis of a corporation that was part of the British Government until Thatcher pried it loose and sold it to the Private Sector (actually, some old money sitting in the House of Lords, and if you look at their board of directors a lot of 'Sirs" and their CEO always is Sir). One of BP's biggest partners since the end of WW1, was Saudi Arabia. In the 60's/70's, with the great awakening in the Middle East, instead of bribing certain Sheiks, business ventures were formed, one of them being between BP and Saudi Aramco. In the late 70's and early 80's, a little company called Standard of Ohio, a left over little sister (out of 7) from the breakup of Rockefeller, had a very risky investment in an obscure oil field known as the North Slope that started paying out. Soon sleepy little Standard of Ohio bought BP, which is how BP got into the United States. Due to capital needs, and Brand recognition world wide, Standard of Ohio morphed into and then was eaten by the House of Lords dudes running BP. In 2000, BP bought their biggest competitor in the North Slope, called ARCO, as BP wanted a presence on the West Coast inorder to fulfill their National image but ARCO, an East Coast Oil Co, had morphed into this small West Coast, down and dirty player with cheap crude and kept the margins on the West Coast in the sewer unless one owned a lot of cheap Alaskan Crude and was totally integrated from downstream to upstream. So BP just bought the sob's, and West Coast retail prices have been HIGH ever since (AM/PM stations ARE BP). The Beyond Petroleum marketing came about around 2000, because it's slick, and BP was trying to intice Soccer Moms, and trying to deflect the bad press after killing 18 workers when it tried to restart it's HUGE Texas refinery after a Turn Around and really screwed up (starting the beasts up is VERY dangerous.....a little pocket of gas someplace it shouldn't be, a BOOM! It's just a big old Pressure Cooker.) Anyway, stop with YOUR Platform Building, get off your high horse, and discuss instead of throwing out cr@p. Your Sense of Importance and lack of Shame makes me want to hire bighorn and sue you for something.
BadRockBilly
Curious; What's getting taken out?
I think there is something in the water. It is taking them all out. A sad day.
JackPoynter
Sorry, I dozed off.
In Latin times, York was Eburacum, pronounced E-byur'-a-co. Over the centuries, due to lazy mouth and slurring and 'familiar-place-name' slurring, the 'Eb-' dropped off the front, the '-co' turned into '-k', and the middle '-a-' went into the phoneme bucket also, which left 'York'.
So New York City would have been "Urbes Eburacum Novum" if the Romans hadn't left England.
There are lots of European, Middle European, and Middle Eastern names that have Latin roots, since the Romans were in charge there for millennia.
For another example that's not too commonly known, 'Wales' is Latin for 'Stranger,' it's what the Romans called the Romanized Britons, and, since Wales was home to the only Romanized Britons left after the Anglo-Saxon invasion, they kept that name.
The word appears in several places in Europe and middle Europe, as; Walloons (Belgium), Welsch (Italian Tyrol), Vlachs (Romania).
The web will tell you that Wallisch is a Germanic word also meaning 'stranger', John Davies, the author of "A History of Wales," prefers the Roman version.
The Welsh language has several borrowed Roman words:
Welsh-Latin-English;
pysg-pisces-fish;
braich-brach-arm;
caer-castra-fort, cf. Caernarfon, Roman Segontium;
ffos-fossa-ditch;
llyfr-liber-book;
ffenestr-fenestra-window;
The Welsh are rather important in North American history, though you won't find them listed as such in history books. Names of Welsh origin, just to name a few, are David, Davies, Davis, Davidson, Will, Willis, Williams, Williamson, Maddox, and (ahem) Poynter / Pointer.
Which explains why I've been reading Davies' book.
curious
I think there is something in the water. It is taking them all out. A sad day.
benznd
Personally, I like my stuff better than his!
benznd
Wow, I could not figure out what I said that was profane or objectionable. So I had to post one paragraph at a time. Come to find out that I can't call the Goremonger a je*rk! So, I am goen for the Guiness Book on the posten scale. I think I am tied with someone.
benznd
We have a SCIENCE CZAR now? Geez Lousie, and Frank, I sure liked your 2cents this week. Really brought those ants out of the ant hill. Liberal little legged backward thingees. SCIENCE CZAR ah? Where do I find information on this water walken je*rk. Keep us posted rtr, I like yur stuff. You da mannnn!
benznd
Gore is just a big joke here. He has all those stocks and partnerships with all those oil and gas companies as well as his green companies. Whoa, he needs to be taken out of comish! Maybe if I contact my Senator the government could do something about his hipocracy. Is that how you spell hipocracy? Oh, skrrew it. Surely the free market will do some adjusting and make him accountable? I'm not going to buy his book and I will certainly call my friends to tell them not to buy it either. And, since I am a good right winger, I don't like him and will call him a Gore monger.
benznd
PELOSI? Don't even bring her up rtr! Who does she think she is, first female Speaker of the House or something? I don't like women in those positions, no sir, don't like it at all. If God had intended for women to hold those positions, he would have, ah, ah, help me out here.
rtr
Well Bighorn do you have any idea how much respect I had for you before you proclaimed you were a Lawyer, "NONE" Cut that by half after I found that out and you are at the bottom of the cat CR*P box now....
Just to clairify that Bighorn it is my respect for you that is at the bottom of the cat CR*P box after all the insults you have given me.
fun gal
British Petroleum merged with Amoco (formerly Standard Oil of Indiana) in December 1998, becoming BPAmoco until 2000 when it was renamed BP and adopted the TAGLINE "Beyond Petroleum," which remains in use today.
It states that BP was NEVER meant to be an abbreviation of its TAGLINE.(Beyond Petroleum)
So they changed their name from "British Petroleum" to simply BP.
Didn't "Kentucky Fried Chicken" change it's name to simply KFC?
rtr
Maybe we should change the subject to lawyer jokes.
Or do you think just maybe it should get back on topic Mr Bighorn since you were complaining about the subject being off topic all the time due to Frank and Myself which does not appear to be the problem now does it..
Question Mr Bighorn can you tell us where the money trail is when it comes to Globalony?
rtr
Well Bighorn do you have any idea how much respect I had for you before you proclaimed you were a Lawyer, "NONE" Cut that by half after I found that out and you are at the bottom of the cat CR*P box now....
rtr
Rockefeller Refers to Obama’s Science Czar as ‘Walking on Water’
Wednesday, August 19, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief
(CNSNews.com) - In a recent congressional hearing, Senate Commerce Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV (D.-W.V.) told John P. Holdren, President Barack Obama’s science czar, that he sometimes refers to Holdren as “walking on water.”
Holdren is director the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy and a top adviser to the president on climate-change policy.
In writings published in past years, Holdren has advocated “de-development” of the United States and redistribution of wealth both within and between nations
Gee the most and worst hated "supposedly" by these liberals here turns out to be their most criminal and loved elimantes of Socialism / Marxism / Communism and the rape of the working class.
Hypocrites, each and everyone of them.
rtr
For the Record:
"•In 2000, British Petroleum re-branded and re-named itself Beyond Petroleum. The logo became a green and yellow sunflower.
•The company was the first to acknowledge the potential link between carbon emission and global warming"
====
First question, How is it all of a sudden an oil company can turn green.
Second question, What's the motive behind admitting "the potential link between carbon emission and global warming" It's the money trail folk's plain and simple.
Note you have NEVER seen the tabaco companies admit that smoking causes cancer, NO money for them if they admit to it. "Food for thought"
rtr
If you are talking about Global Warming Al Gore has an investment company in England that is highly invested in the companies that will get the taxes from a cap and trade tax and it is already being bought into by gambling speculators.
Those companies would be the ones you seem to hate the most "The energy companies themselves, Nat gas, oil, coal which will be responsible for burying the CO2 gas and they are prepared to move forward if they get a chance".
Not only would you be paying more to cover the taxes but at the same time those companies will be getting and using the same tax dollars they get money from you to faultily raise the price of the product that you have to buy.
Like Jack said however the Cap and Trade tax doesn’t have a chance in the Senate but Obama is doing everything he can to get it passed and if the Copenhagen thing goes through and get passed then it will come out of your tax dollars for the third world countries even if Obama doesn’t get a Cap and Trade tax passed here which is to be 10 billion dollars. “Another words 10 billion dollars to prop up their economies is all and has nothing to do with cleaning up the air not to mention it will be coming back to Al Gores investment company”
“Madoff ring a bell”?
http://www.generationim.com/
We Need Sustainable Capitalism
Nature does not do bailouts.
5 November, 2008
By Al Gore and David Blood
rtr
Are Pelosi’s “Green Investments” A Conflict Of Interest?
“House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says she is on a mission to save the planet. She has consistently refused to allow a vote on drilling for oil because she says she believes it is all a hoax. But maybe Speaker Pelosi has other reasons.
The http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Editorial_Pelosi_and_Pickens_investment_partners.html has recently revealed what that motive might be. The good Speaker owns stock in Clean Energy Fuels Corporation (CEFC). Have you ever heard of T. Boone Pickens? Yes, I’m referring to the Texas oil billionaire who is now promoting his new wind-power business on television. CEFC is T. Boone’s baby. This project will depend on federal subsidies and, don’t forget, high oil prices along with continued government restrictions on drilling for oil in the US”.
The list is endless when it comes to these liberal crooks that are in government that stand there and lie right to our faces on TV.
Bighorn0216
Actually, rtr, I'm not "INTO" law. I've been a licensed attorney for 28 years. It isn't as fascinating as you might think, but it's paid some bills.
My days begin at about 4 a.m. So, again, I bid you peace and a good night.
Bighorn0216
Sorry for the reps. The site slipped into a tesseract on me.
Bronco
Maybe if we just ignore the environment it'll go away.
Bighorn, ut humiliter opinor, you and Wilson are casting margaritas ante porcos.
Jack, how about "place of the yew trees?"
Bighorn0216
Not "Yorkik" -- "Yorvik"
As I said, it's late.
Bighorn0216
Not "Yorkik" -- "Yorvik"
As I said, it's late.
Bighorn0216
Didn't post first time, trying again . . .
No sinister Latinate about it. It was Jorvik ("Yorkik") when the Vikings were in charge. Good climb up into Yorkminster. Funny gargoyles. Great descent below, where the Roman drainage system is still in place, and still functions fine. The walls around York are a bit of a worry, now, though. Not well maintained.
Great railroad museum in York, too. Worth the trip.
Can't explain New York. I have a 3-day limit on Manhattan, after which I leave screaming.
Bighorn0216
No sinister Latinate there. It was Jorvik, when the Vikings were there. Now it's York, and the walls are in crumbles. Yorkminster's a great climb, both to the top, and down below, where the Roman drainage system is still in place and still works fine.
I can't explain New York. I have a three-day limit in Manhattan, and I go out screaming.
rtr
Jack if you notice what you stated about the liberal sheep changing the subject, insulting, belittling and etc is starting to show up here right now.
Notice Mr Willson with constant religion, Mr Bighorn with I'm into LAW and then goes off topic.
Bottom line is it is a diversion of the topic at hand so people can not see the truth about Globalony.
JackPoynter
Ok, you all, you like Latin. What's the derivation of the name 'New York'? Just referring it back to the English name York will not be deemed sufficient.
But I digress. What the hey, it's a slow news night.
Bighorn0216
Thanks, rtr.
It's late. Sleep well.
rtr
Leave it to Bighorn to take it off topic with religion and then complain about it being off topic in earlier posts and then rip other people apart for NO reason when it comes to your behaviour............HUMM
Question, Do you have something to add about the money trail when it comes to Globalony?
Bighorn0216
I should share the joke, sorry. "Ubi ignis est?"
"Where's the fire?"
Bighorn0216
Mr. Wilson:
The mass in Latin: What a metaphor! We learned the words and how to say them but had no idea of their meaning.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I have no recollection myself of understanding my responses in Latin. I did mean to add--and this is why I said it helped me greatly in other languages--that it did so fascinate me that long afterward I studied Latin for two years at--can you believe this--Flathead High School. I've lost track of the number of unknown English, Spanish or French words that I've worked out because I sorted out the Latin root. And all those wonderful and still familiar endings for the nominative, the genitive, the ablative, in masculine, feminine, and neuter. Even Latin cartoons, such as the Centurion starting to writing up the speeding ticket for the charioteer, while asking "Ubi ignis est?" And wouldn't you know, I finally wound up in law, where we get to encounter much res judicata and habeas corpus.
Comes in handy if you're a crossword addict, as well.
Rob123
"Things worked pretty well for us for awhile. DNA kept us in the hunt. "
then it happened! cogito!
" ..... let's all get together and just not believe him or others who think they know anything about sea levels and icebergs. I say, scr*ew em."
ah benznd, ya turned into that which you were not. Now the oceans will rise, like it or not, while Wilson elucidates the Nature of Time and you play the bongo drums. I knew, in the end, everything would turn out ok.
Rob123
"Things worked pretty well for us for awhile. DNA kept us in the hunt. "
then it happened! cogito!
" ..... let's all get together and just not believe him or others who think they know anything about sea levels and icebergs. I say, scr*ew em."
ah benznd, ya turned into that which you were not. Now the oceans will rise, like it or not, while Wilson elucidates the Nature of Time and you play the bongo drums. I knew, in the end, everything would turn out ok.
benznd
Down syndrome is a condition in which the person has an extra chromosome 21, and is often associated with mental retardation and other problems such as heart abnormalities.
The data were also analyzed for the prevalence of Down Syndrome in specific age groups, for each gender, for different ethnic and racial groups, and for association with heart defects.
The prevalence of Down Syndrome babies increased significantly with the age of the mother, with 7.8 per 10,000 born to mothers under 35, and 38.6 per 10,000 for mothers 35 or older. Maternal age has long been known to be a risk factor for Down Syndrome, and many researchers are trying to find out the specific reason for this.
Overall, the study found the prevalence of Down Syndrome at birth is increasing, and so are survival rates. In 1983 the median age at death was 25, while in 1997 it had climbed to 49.
The findings of the study may have implications for the allocation of resources for Down Syndrome patients in the future because sufferers often have associated conditions such as vision problems and congenital heart defects, which means they can require a high degree of care.
The findings in the U.S. are not reflected in the U.K., where a recent study found the prevalence remains steady. This was attributed to terminations of pregnancies after screening and diagnosis. Without the terminations, the prevalence would also have increased in the U.K., since after a positive diagnosis around 92 percent of the pregnancies were terminated. Data available for California suggests the equivalent figurer there is 60 percent.
The U.S. paper was published online in the Pediatrics journal on November 30, and will appear in the December issue of the print edition.
benznd
Now that I am on the Right, I think we should just be aware that Al Gore is a crook. He is signing books and making money based upon a hoax. I guess I will just not buy his book. And that group, whomever they are, can just follow him around and yell or whatever it is they do. Prove him wrong? I doubt that can happen, as we just do not know too much about anything. But, don't buy his book, buy Palin's book instead. She is so right on with everything and she is so accurate and represents my views. Oh, the money that John Booner spent on the links should not be targeted by the libs as he has a heavy schedule and that money is ours. And, I know I am getting off target here, but since I am on a role, I think we should just go into Afghanistan and stay as long as is needed to kill whomever we need to kill. And as for the money, Mitch McConnell said we should use the stimulus money since it had failed anyway. He is our guy and knows his stuff. I think Oral Hatch form Utah backed him up.
So, BadRockBilly, you and I are on the same page. I know you are much more open to issues than some of the others, but just wanted you to know "I got yur back!"
Let's not buy his book, OK? And let's all get together and just not believe him or others who think they know anything about sea levels and icebergs. I say, scr*ew em.
JackPoynter
Thank you, Curious. My wife would say, "Shoot. Now you've gone and encouraged him."
JackPoynter
The Wall Street Journal is saying that Hansen came out against Cap-And-Trade because it was going to fail anyway. I'm not going to post the url, it's all just opinion.
That sort of comment involves mind-reading, which I gave up believing in 15 minutes after I hit puberty, the first time I tried to read a girl's mind.
I listen to what people say, I watch what they do. What they do is most important. That's why the leaked emails are so important; they give us a window into their minds.
curious
Jack, I really appreciate the information you bring.
curious
Bendznd, I don't necessarily think this is right or left. I do have a problem when someone like Pelosi partners with T bones and the potential profit to be gained could direct votes for the wrong reasons. Or someone like Gore with his connections, same thing wrong reasons. (I realize they are both left side politics, but easy pickings on the internet). I couldn't find anything on Boxer, so there may be some politicians out there that just truly believe they are doing it for the right reasons.
I don't agree with BIG Government, and it is getting more difficult to differentiate where BIG Corporate and Government entities are any different. Truth in broadcasting, in reality should be truth in advertising. When I saw some of the advertising ploys used with Fenton Corporation I was amazed. We all are being duped. All they have to do is find our emotional buttons, and we take it line and sinker. So when the information like Climategate is leaked, it is important because it exposes some of the games.
I agree that Cap and Trade is very similar to paying for your sins. We need to do things to deal with pollution of our resources. Can't live without air or water. But the tradeoffs being made in Government aren't for our benefit.
BadRockBilly
We Are Change confronts Al Gore at book signing, asked about Climategate
FTO (blog) - Dec 1, 2009
Last week Al Gore attended a book signing event but this time We are change was there again to confront Al Gore and his body guards. ...
_______________________________
There are some people on the street. http://www.wearechangechicago.com/
JackPoynter
Yes, Rob, he's against Cap and Trade because it's a compromise. He doesn't think you can reduce carbon emissions that way. He's probably right about that. He is for a direct fossil fuel tax because that will reduce emissions much more directly.
About the rest of what he believes, I believe that he believes what he's saying. I don't think he's right; or if he is, that it has anything to do with human generated carbon emissions. You get to make your own mind up about that.
The point of posting that url is that he is a VERY big noise in the AGW crowd. And if he is against Cap and Trade, the governments around the world are going to be placed in a tenuous position, politically. He's that important to those folks.
OTOH, he's already been caught twice making mistakes in published data from NASA's Goddard Institute for Spaces Sciences, once in 2007 and once in 2008. Both times were simple errors in calculating global average temperatures, but NASA is not supposed to make that sort of error; and since he is the manager of the GISS, the onus falls directly on him.
The error in 2007 was a Y2K error, they had a century assignation problem, and added some data from the 21st century into the 20th century. The error was caught by Climate Audit, an independent NASA watchdog, by a guy named McIntyre. If you'll remember, for a while they were calling 1998 the warmest year on record, but when the model was corrected it turned out to be 1934 that was the warmest year on record. NASA (Hansen) issued the correction but never issued a statement giving McIntyre credit for finding it that I'm aware of.
See http://www.dailytech.com/Blogger+Finds+Y2K+Bug+in+NASA+Climate+Data/article8383.htm
In 2008, NASA had the same sort of problem. This time, they just double posted one month's worth of data, which increased the yearly warming stats. Again Climate Audit caught the mistake, and NASA (Hansen) corrected without comment.
See http://www.dailytech.com/Deja+Vu+All+Over+Again+Blogger+Again+Finds+Error+in+NASA+Climate+Data/article13410.htm
You'll see Climate Audit and McIntyre mentioned repeatedly in the hacked emails, not favorably, and that's why: Climate Audit put egg all over the face of their favored son, James Hansen.
From a programmer's point of view, antagonistic system quality control is the way to ensure good, clean data and systems. It's the way reputable companies conduct their business, because managers can't afford to put the people they work for in a bad light, in addition to simple technical issues of getting the job done right.
Scientific programming seems to not quite work that way, at least not at the CRU. Their issues are political, in order to ensure further funding. Robust peer review solves the problem, when it is allowed to happen.
Rob123
Jack: reading your post "http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/article59281.ece" I noticed that James Hansen is against Cap and Trade but FOR a direct fossil fuel tax.....? Did I read that correctly? And he is saying we already have a 1 metre rise in sea level coming, but it's not to late to stop the next 2 metres?
benznd
Our former,former VP has stock in green technologies? Our former VP has stock in Halliburton? My father-in-law had stock in Exxon and worked in that industry . If the Vatican traded on the public market or however that is stated, I would think most Catholics would own stock.
However, since I am now on the RIGHT, what should we do with that guy? He has somehow convinced many people in many countries of this hoax to make money. Whatever we can do I am BOARD! Don't purchase ANY stock in those industries. Ah, boycott somebody or something? Join together on sites such as this to make sure everyone knows of this hoax? Tell me what to do, please. Don't need no stinken socialists. So LEFTIES, defend this HOAX!
benznd
I am impressed! What I have just read from WIlson and Bighorn is pure human evolution in written format. The ability to take a very intellectual, philosphical concept and break it down into crucial parts, then take those crucial parts and reconstruct the concept. The brain processing that goes into that type of construct is so tightly interwoven into our present "psyche." A psyche that constantly evolves when nourished.
Ant colonies are, in so many ways, the essence of existence. The vast majority are there to ensure survival of the species. Not much thought, just genetic
programming. The Queen is the means to an end. Genetics determines who, what, and where. The anthesis of existentialism. Destiny exists within ant colonies. How's that worken for ya Queenie? Pretty, pretty, pretty good!
Things worked pretty well for us for awhile. DNA kept us in the hunt. Not long enough. Competition and pecking order? Adapt or cease to exist. There is a mechanical explanation that makes evolutionary sense. The medulla is surrounded by the cisterna magna, which is a sack of blood and supporting tissue, that would cushion the medulla against shock if the brain bounces around a bit. The brain does do that when one runs or jumps. The cushioning would be important protection for the medulla from such shocks, because all sorts of vital functions depend on the medulla working properly when impulses are transmitted through it between brain and body. Natural selection would have favored individuals with better cushioning of the medulla, that is, with larger cisterns. OK, just an example of what evolution/adaptiion seems to be about.
Ah, consequences to mechanism. The proverbial "if-then" reality of life. Can we say Existentialstic adaption? First we exist then we become? If life is mechanical, and DNA the queen or means to an end, please explain Wilson and Bighorn.
JackPoynter
Probably the most import thing that happened yesterday in the AGW world is that James Hansen, the "grandfather of climate change" and manager of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Sciences, has said that Copenhagen must fail, because carbon emissions trading is a path to disaster:
http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/article59281.ece
That url is the first place I saw it last night, but it has since migrated to about 150 different websites since then.
Hansen is to AGW as Garrison was to abolitionism: He is a true believer, and brooks no compromise.
In other news, the British have instantiated their review process:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8393449.stm
That url contains the objectives of the review. It's been a long time coming.
Rob123
Mr Wilson......your suggestion of "are still growing" , which I am sure is a reference to Heraclitus and his fine analysis that Being IS becoming, is ok for someone like you to use as your ability to explain is well documented. I, however, being more of a laconic sort, end up with dangling participles and soon everyone is checking their waist line and not feeling good about it. (-:
curious
Tillie, I expect we will continue to see some effort to downplay the effects of this manipulation of data, as there have been billions of dollars thrown at this. Obama is still planning to go to Copenhagen, and throw billions of dollars of commitments, that we will be paying for. I am not saying green is bad, no I think that we should be making efforts to reduce our environmental footprint. I am saying people like Al Gore, who left office with 2 million, is working his way to billionaire, on the deceit driven from this agenda of fear, and we will all die.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FX-JhDJR44&feature=player_embedded
Wilson
Bighorn, Dominus vobiscum and a great post. Rob, et cum spirittu tuo and we didn't just grow up, we grew and are still growing.
The mass in Latin: What a metaphor! We learned the words and how to say them but had no idea of their meaning. Like today's Christianity; they know the responses but usually won't take the time to investigate what their beliefs really are. One cannot come close to a whole understanding by just studying their religion either. Learning about other religions, history, and science rounds out a wider world view.
To dismiss facts or refuse to learn them about any subject then profess to "know" about the subject or to boast of a "leap of faith" is a rejection of that God-given facility, the Mind.
Which brings us to Delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.
Enough for today. Shrugging on my coat and out the door.
curious
I have to admit I have enjoyed learning more about the workings of the persons on the other side of the screen. Even though we don't agree about everything, it helps me understand where you might be coming from in perspective, and help me in coming to a conclusion about your meaning when you post.
Rob123
Bighorn0216.....(-: Very nice. Thank You....It's amazing how many ex-alter boys of the Pre-Vatican 2 days post here......a magical time of security (outside of nuclear bomb rehearsals) and High Opera sung in Latin. But then we grew up......
Bighorn0216
Final word in the last post should have been "religion."
Bighorn0216
Mr. Wilson, you are obviously well-schooled and well-spoken in the theistic arts. Our paths were similar in a few ways. I was what is now called an altar server so long ago that all my parts were in Latin. (For that language aspect, if for nothing else, I’m grateful; it not only enhanced my appreciation for the English language, but Spanish and French as well. However, it helped not a whit in picking up an expat’s supply of Mandarin.)
My interest continued through degrees in Philosophy and Religious Studies, after a heart defect spoiled my career-pilot plans, but before the cloisters of seminary could seal me off from the temptations of the world, I discovered women and wine, and for a young man apparently weak in both flesh and spirit, there was no contest. (Even as a much older man, father, and soon-to-be grandfather, I confess to still being too attached to the carnal pleasures. I’m just having a harder time remembering what they are.)
Just as well. For even by then I had become dissatisfied with much received doctrine. The catechism told me what to believe, but didn’t answer my “why?” questions. And in the intervening decades, I’ve looked high and I’ve looked very—very—low and I’ve studied old tradition and new age, I’ve read of heroes and saints and secular saints. I’ve been a somewhat envious spectator in dozens of Buddhist temples in Asia and I’ve been interested in objectively witnessing southern Baptist tent revival meetings.
Yet I was lazy and passed on to my kids the received doctrine I’d been given at their age. I feel somewhat guilty about that, now, that I didn’t instead pass on to them, earlier, a greater facility for critical thinking. Fortunately, they have come into it of their own accord. Whatever it is that they have come to believe, I have observed that they each live a life with greater equanimity than is usually present in mine. Time for the parent to learn from the child.
The complex clockworks of the universe may prove to one person the existence of a Watchmaker. Another may be an unconvinced by the logical disconnect. Proofs of Prime Movers and First Causes are unsatisfying both intellectually and spiritually. While there are posited scenarios that are much more appealing to me—the continuity of consciousness, say, or the meaningless of our concept of time—I can’t prove those things, either.
What I can do is ask myself, if something like that were true, how would it affect the way I conduct my day-to-day life? Would it make me want to hear the sound of my feet hitting the floor in the morning, or want to remain in dread’s soggy bed all day?
I can approach political and scientific questions the same way. Is affordable, available health care a good thing, or an evil? Is the earth warming up, are the ice caps melting, and, if so, is it caused or exacerbated by man? And if it is, should I do anything about it in my day-to-day life? In either case, what evidence has been adduced for and against? What is its weight?
A few years ago, my life tipped and my supply of naivete and ingenuousness spilled out. In most respects, that was a good thing (though I won’t say it didn’t hurt). Some thought that acceptance of new doctrine was the way out for me. I considered it objectively, at length, and rejected it. I’ve been down that road. I have no faith in any “isms” or “anitys” anymore, but I am finding practices that give meaning to my daily life, even though I am sometimes truant from the lessons.
Whether time and space are merely a construct of our unmatured minds, whether my ancestors are but wisps of imagination or hallucination, whether the consciousness I sense will survive my physical death—I don’t know. But I can act “as if,” and observe the consequences, without buying into doctrine.
What if X were true? How would that affect the way I live my life today? That’s my philosophy, my politics, and my philosophy.
Rob123
benznd..."Ah little Robbie? What ya thinken? " Not much, actually. I had a good experience yesterday that lasted the whole afternoon and allowed me to experience everything from Fear to Awe and ended with a big, old (-: plastered on my face without a lot behind it. To make a long story short (excuse me, Mr. Wilson!) it had to do with some property I have out in the boonies, my little 65lb Poodle, and a pack(?) (at least 4) of Wolves. I was impressed with my Poodles IQ, although I did have my 45 out as we walked back to my Jeep (No Alpha Male Wolf? They don't tolerate strange intruders.). There is something about being in the woods wiith a predator sniffing around who 'can be' a little higher up the food chain if one isn't careful. All in all, an excellent day, except for the Hunters who camped on my property and didn't have the upbringing to pack out their own garbage (which could have drawn the wolves in? They usually den about 15 miles away); which was my original intent for going up there to check things out. All in all, an excellent day. And yes, Mr Wilson, Time is a concept. One shoudn't worship it. Just because we have a beginning and end, so what? But keep looking, ya never know what ya might come up with......it's always good feedstock for the literary mill. (-:
BadRockBilly
Excuse me Wilson I thought you were off and I accidently bumped behind you.
Remarkable
BadRockBilly
Rob 123; I think Mr. Wilson got a little pooped out responding to too many questions. He has a great insight but wants to parry every foolish word .
His points are well taken . "So what is the difference or what is the similarity between 'Soul' and 'Psyche'? Are they interchangeable words? Are Psychologists and Preachers talking about the same thing, just using different words?
Gensis
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
_____________________________________________
Websters
psyche; a. SOUL SELF b, MIND
Wilson
Bronco, it's cold on my bones and you sit in Hawaii wanting to know if the universe created itself. Rob seems to want to know too but I think he's privy to the theories already. And curious, I will try to answer your other concerns here too. It will be lengthy but I think you all have inquiring minds, that thirst for knowledge that propels our human race forward; you won’t mind.
The feeling that “something must have started it all” is deeply ingrained in Western culture. And there is a widespread assumption that this “something” cannot lie within the scope of scientific inquiry; it must in some sense be supernatural. Let me say that down through history, anything that could not be rationally explained has been used as evidence for the existence of God. Science, the study of the universe, is slowly whittling away at that evidence. BUT, that particular moment, the beginning of the universe, so far, is elusive.
All debate presupposes that the universe HAD an origin, a beginning. What if it always was? Ancient cultures mostly held that it had no beginning, that nature was cyclic, there were gods in control of it that had to be appeased by offerings. To the Chinese it was Yin and Yang, success was alternate to failure, as was progress with decay. Hindus had cycles within cycles, 8 billion years is a day in Brahma’s life whose life will last 311 trillion years.
Greek philosophy was steeped in the concept of cycles too. The cyclic nature of time in the Greek system was inherited by the Arabs, who remained custodians of the Greek culture until it was transmitted to Christendom in medieval times. Much of the present world-view of European cultures can be traced to the clash between Greek philosophy and Judeo-Christian tradition. Judeo-Christian teaching holds that God created the universe at some specific moment in the past.
Debate continued until the thirteenth century, when the works of Aristotle became available in translation to the new universities of Europe. A young friar in Paris, Thomas Aquinas, set out to combine Christian religion with Greek methods of rational philosophy. He conceived a transcendent God, inhabiting a realm beyond space and time. He then attributed a set of well-defined qualities to God: perfection, simplicity, timelessness, omnipotence, and omniscience..and he attempted to argue for their necessity and consistency after the fashion of geometrical theorems (Euclid). At first he was condemned by the Bishop of Paris but later became a saint.
So many questions come up here. The biblical description of Genesis draws heavily on earlier creation myths from the Middle East. It’s long on poetry but short on factual details. What was God doing before he created the universe? Why did he create it at that moment in time rather than some other? If he had been content to endure eternity without a universe, what caused him to make up his mind and create this one?
I can’t answer your question, Bronco. So far the universe appears rational, but what is the origin of that rationality? It cannot arise solely in our minds, because our minds merely reflect what is already there. Should we seek explanations in a rational Designer? Or can rationality “create itself” by the sheer force of its own “reasonableness?”
Curious, you questioned Catholicism in the face of 30,000 other Christian sects. Catholicism was the FIRST Christian sect. All others broke away from it. Does that help? Does the fact that Christian doctrine today was mostly formed long after Genesis was written down; that it has been influenced by Greek thought more than any other, including Judaism, change your feelings about it being the Word of God, set down in a book nearly 2000 years ago? There are more of Paul’s ideas in it than Jesus’. Aquinas contributed more that the gospels to interpretation and he not until the 1200’s.
All religions come from other religions. Why bother? Create your own relationship with God, your own idea of God. He won’t mind as long as you don’t harm anyone.
BadRockBilly
I've heard about hard times and I thought I should learn how to survive if hard times were to come again. I do not think we've hit hard times yet . I remember the inside cover of the Whole Earth Catalog Epilog. It was a picture of a roadside ditch full of weeds. The caption said "stay hungry stay foolish". If we can make it till spring, I'll cook some stinging nettles.
Tillie
from Slate magazine: The focus of the e-mail hacking incident commonly known as "climategate" has shifted to whether scientists at East Anglia's Climate Research Unit threw away raw temperature data. A Sunday Times piece on the alleged information-dumping notes that CRU is "the world's leading centre for reconstructing past climate" and that the material in question "was used to build the databases … showing how the world has warmed by 0.8C over the past 157 years." How vital to climate change hypotheses is the CRU data set?
It's important, but hardly a sine qua non. Three organizations assemble global temperature data sets, which researchers then use to identify long-term trends: CRU, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. (The Japan Meteorological Agency also conducts similar work.) There are subtle differences among the sets, but they all point to the same general conclusion—that the earth has warmed by about 1.6 degrees Fahrenheit over the past century and a half.
The question of whether CRU dumped "raw" data is a little deceptive, because CRU, NASA, and NOAA don't put together first-order temperature measurements—that's up to various national meteorological services, which rely on satellites as well as thermometer readings on land and at sea. The National Weather Service in the United States, and equivalent organizations abroad, then sort through the numbers and clean them up. This cleanup operation is, in part, a form of proofreading, like if station agents in Siberia report a temperature of 102, they probably meant 10.2. It's also a "homogenizing" process that tries to account for the many variables that affect temperature over time—like when a population boom in a formerly rural area leads to an "urban heat island." A national weather service might adjust the data so that urbanization isn't mistaken for an increase in global temperatures. Much of these data are then stored at the Global Historical Climatology Network's database.
East Anglia's research unit uses a subset of this very large pool of information, while NASA and NOAA take slightly different pieces of it. NASA, for example, relies on data that are in the public domain. CRU takes the public numbers but also integrates more fine-grained data, which are sometimes governed by nondisclosure agreements. Each group then uses its chosen subset to create estimates of how global temperatures have changed over time and how they may change in the future.
The three groups account for data limitations in different ways. For example, each must deal with the fact that there are no permanent weather stations in the Arctic Ocean—making it difficult to get accurate readings. NASA's approach is to extrapolate temperatures from the nearest land-based stations, like those in Greenland. The much-maligned CRU doesn't "fill in" the Arctic Ocean in this way, which makes it seem as though the Arctic is warming at the same rate as the global mean. As a result, the CRU approach suggests there's been less warming over the last 10 years than does NASA's—something climate skeptics rallied around before they decided the set was tainted.
JackPoynter
No, rtr, I'm 64, my wife is 62. I retired early because socsec was considerably more than I was making at the big box. Luckily I made enough money for enough years that socsec, even with early retirement, will sustain us.
curious
Bronco and Bendznd, Your all are sweet, but I don't want to be just a pretty face.
curious
Gore's money making another view.
http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/22207436/gore-s-cash-cow.htm#q=gore
sorrySOB, look even the news acknowledge that network news still not covering it.
"12 Days of ClimateGate and Network News Programs Are Still Ignoring the Scandal"
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/julia-seymour/2009/12/02/12-days-climategate-network-news-programs-are-still-ignoring-scandal
rtr
Jack you say you are at least 65 right, Then you also have Medicare until Obama takes that away from you that you have paid into all your life and then you will be reduced to the Obama Death Care plan if he gets his way.
JackPoynter
Insurance...I had that my whole professional life until I was laid off in 2003, and went to work for the proverbial big box. Then it was a choice between buying their insurance for my wife and myself, and eating and sleeping indoors. We chose survival. In the long run, of course, that won't work. I'm covered by the VA, but Christie is totally exposed, and at the mercy of the hospitals and free clinics.
However, now that we're retired and on the much-despised social security, we may be able to do something about that.
JackPoynter
Rick,
I was only following orders. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Thanks for the link. I'd give you ours, but it died when MSN Communities died, then our webmaster passed on.
Reminds me I need to go do something about that...
JP
rtr
Are Pelosi’s “Green Investments” A Conflict Of Interest?
“House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says she is on a mission to save the planet. She has consistently refused to allow a vote on drilling for oil because she says she believes it is all a hoax. But maybe Speaker Pelosi has other reasons.
The http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Editorial_Pelosi_and_Pickens_investment_partners.html has recently revealed what that motive might be. The good Speaker owns stock in Clean Energy Fuels Corporation (CEFC). Have you ever heard of T. Boone Pickens? Yes, I’m referring to the Texas oil billionaire who is now promoting his new wind-power business on television. CEFC is T. Boone’s baby. This project will depend on federal subsidies and, don’t forget, high oil prices along with continued government restrictions on drilling for oil in the US”.
The list is endless when it comes to these liberal crooks that are in government that stand there and lie right to our faces on TV.
fun gal
British Petroleum merged with Amoco (formerly Standard Oil of Indiana) in December 1998, becoming BPAmoco until 2000 when it was renamed BP and adopted the TAGLINE "Beyond Petroleum," which remains in use today. It states that BP was never meant to be an abbreviation of its tagline.
So they changed their name from "British Petroleum" to simply BP.
Didn't "Kentucky Fried Chicken" change it's name to simply KFC?
rtr
Any time anyone offers you a good deal you need to take a good hard look at why they are giving you such a good deal.
Our Government
Social Insecurity, If I could have keep that money and invested it then I would have three times that amount of money to retire on. “The government has used it to fight every war since its inception” “The New Deal by Roosevelt” I call it the government scr*w you American worker deal myself”.
Medicare, I had insurance all my life while I was working and most people do and if we could have invested that money we would NOT only have three times the money needed for a life times worth of insurance after retirement but there would have been plenty left over for the higher cost of health care for MORE R&D for BETTER health care.
Medicad, What a joke and there is nothing else anyone can say about that.
Obama’s Death Care will not only lower the standard of ALL our health care but it will reduce the money needed for R&D of new medical developments BUT you can rest assured the government will find a use for the excess money and or STEAL from the Death Care fund just like they have from every other governmental “We will save you plan that has ever existed before”
rtr
Gore Invests In Carbon Credit Company, Will Media Care?
By Noel Sheppard (Bio | Archive)
June 4, 2008 - 09:34 ET
"For years, NewsBusters has contended that Nobel Laureate Al Gore is spreading global warming hysteria to benefit his own wallet.
On Wednesday, despite claims by one of Gore's representatives two months ago, it was revealed that his Generation Investment Management private equity fund has taken a 9.5 percent stake in a company that has one of the largest carbon credit portfolios in the world".
Realize that buying a carbon credit does NOT do anything to clean up the air or cool the enviroment.
Rick Spencer
Jack, so you are the culprit that had our ID's changed to our SS number. One of the big shocks to all of us was that the original issue of SS cards, I still have mine from about 1950, stated clearly that the card and number were not to be used for identification purposes. It seemed as if we were now without privacy and exposed to the world. I spent 28 years overall in the Guard, Reserves, and active, exiting in 1988, but did not know that they have changed back. Here is our squadron web site where you will find some pictures from your era that you might enjoy. Just scroll down past the reunion planning items. Have a good time.
http://cargomasterraster.blogspot.com/
rtr
For the Record:
"•In 2000, British Petroleum re-branded and re-named itself Beyond Petroleum. The logo became a green and yellow sunflower.
•The company was the first to acknowledge the potential link between carbon emission and global warming"
====
First question, How is it all of a sudden an oil company can turn green.
Second question, What's the motive behind admitting "the potential link between carbon emission and global warming" It's the money trail folk's plain and simple.
Note you have NEVER seen the tabaco companies admit that smoking causes cancer, NO money for them if they admit to it. "Food for thought"
rtr
Hey Jack I actually watched a program on TV "I don't even remember the network" but it showed how the energy companies were getting ready to do the drilling and creating under ground caverns to deposit the CO2 gas in as well as under ground coal mines that are owned by the big energy companies to store the CO2 also..
Another words they pay the taxes which they say they have to raise the price of the product when in reality they end up getting all that tax money back plus the cost they scamed us by saying they had to raise the price of the product in the first place.
rtr
Bronco
My question is what are THEY going to do with ALL the money once they get it from all of us? rtr? Chime in please.
=============================
If you are talking about Global Warming Al Gore has an investment company in England that is highly invested in the companies that will get the taxes from a cap and trade tax and it is already being bought into by gambling speculators.
Those companies would be the ones you seem to hate the most "The energy companies themselves, Nat gas, oil, coal which will be responsible for burying the CO2 gas and they are prepared to move forward if they get a chance".
Not only would you be paying more to cover the taxes but at the same time those companies will be getting and using the same tax dollars they get money from you to faultily raise the price of the product that you have to buy.
Like Jack said however the Cap and Trade tax doesn’t have a chance in the Senate but Obama is doing everything he can to get it passed and if the Copenhagen thing goes through and get passed then it will come out of your tax dollars for the third world countries even if Obama doesn’t get a Cap and Trade tax passed here which is to be 10 billion dollars. “Another words 10 billion dollars to prop up their economies is all and has nothing to do with cleaning up the air not to mention it will be coming back to Al Gores investment company”
The worst part Bronco this Globalony is an economy killer and job killer here in the USA and like Jack pointed out it is next to criminal. “Madoff ring a bell”?
http://www.generationim.com/
We Need Sustainable Capitalism
Nature does not do bailouts.
5 November, 2008
By Al Gore and David Blood
fun gal
Point taken. BTW, I have excellent insurance.
JackPoynter
Where does the money go...there's a decent question. I have no answer.
I'd like to know, though. I think it's as important in the climate debate as it is in any other.
Anybody got any ideas?
Boxer says she's going to go along with Inhofe on the email investigation, BUT she says she wants a criminal investigation of the hacking itself. Fine with me. Let the chips fall where they may. Maybe we'll find out it's a leak instead of a hack. Maybe we'll find out it's carelessness on the part of the CRU, all of that has been posited.
Just as long as we get some clarity on the AGW science, that's what I'm looking for.
benznd
Fun gal, quite yur whinen! GO GET A better JOB sister. You know, it is people like you who just take up oxygen, ah rtr? Don't come back to this Valley for vacation, cause ya just make things turn gloomy. But, on the bright side, those banks have the right to keep their money and pay their numerous VP's and P's. They have NO obligation to make anything fair. If ya want fair, I'll give ya a running start. I am taking up the flag for the right. They need me I can tell. So Sundown, you bettter take care, if we find you been sneeken round our back stairs. Sometimes I think its a shame when I get feelen better when I'm feelen no pain. (-:
benznd
That Wilson is WAY out of my league. And I think curious is hanging with em at times, yet is also way over her head at times. Wilson has some kind of intellect. There are many who have "some kind of intellect." I mean that sincerely. You my friend are one, although Bronco, you must stop alienating the females. Curious may be flattered, but wants to be included in this blog based upon intellect not cuteness? I know the port from which you embark. I kinda like her too. (-: Ah little Robbie? What ya thinken?
benznd
Bronco, you are once again in danger of censure!
Bronco
Benznd, you must be having a beeyotch of a day, Doc. Take in some Wilson and mellow out.
My question is what are THEY going to do with ALL the money once they get it from all of us? rtr? Chime in please. Where does this money go? Seems to be a missing piece of the puzzle. If money is the why for it all.
curious, you're kinda cute.
fun gal
I hear what you're saying Benznd. But what about the people who do work hard 40 hrs a week and their employer doesn't offer insurance. Jobs aren't easy to find nowadays for people who have been layed off. Some big companies, like Glacier Bank like to hire part-time people because they don't offer benefits to part-timers. Most business' that offers health insurance are trying to hire many part-timers to avoid spending money on benefits. That's not fair.
benznd
I am kinda like sorrySOB on this global warming issue. There is not much I can do to change anything. I leave a rather small carbon print. What I would like to know is: what am I to do differently if I completely go along with the BS theory. There is no global warming, it is all a hoax, and we should just ignore it and live our lives. OK, now I said that, please tell me what more there is to say about this. I am on-board ladies and gents. Climate change is a scam. Now what is next? Ah wait a minute. If we all agree that THEY are out to get us again, and it is true, THEY ARE out to get us, what should I do differently? Please tell me what to do next, besides shut the bleep up and get the bleep off this site...............
I am a God Fearing Christian. Tell me what I should do next. Do I pick up the tea bags after the sacrifice? I just need to know what you want me to do? And if THEY are out to take your Christian RIghts away, and THEY ARE, and I don't like it one bit, tell me what to do? Do you have a "I love Jesus" sign for me to carry near Depot Park? I would go to any length to support you. Just tell me what I can do as a good Christian, besides stuff it.
I believe that Health Insurance for all is unAmerican. I believe that we should all get a job and get our own insurance. There is nothing in the Constitution that talks about health insurance for everyone. We cannot afford to pay for THOSE who will not work for a living, or have some other darn skin color (maybe) and come from some darn climate closer to the equator. I am on board here. THEY are out to break this country and impose THEIR socialist agendas on us, and no sir, I don't like it one bit. What should I do? How can I help to ensure that some go uninsured.
Let's see. Chemtrails are my favorite item. I think I talked about them recently. But I think there is a conspiracy to mind numb all of us. I do not know who is doing it, but I don't like it one bit. Look at what it has done to some of us already. So, Frank please tell me what to do? Do I need to buy some kind of protective head gear, a scarf or something? I am on board with this chemtrail thingee, just tell me what I should do about THEM. Scares the cr*ap out of me. And I won't go away if that is what you are thinking as I am a right wing conservative patriotic God fearing kinda guy. Loving my new image. Do you guys and gals mind if I join ya? I will work with ya to just "quit maken stuff up." Let's ride posse, head up the Whoop Up Trail............
Did I miss anything? I am opposed to what rtr, Natres, Pere, Frank, Moosebreath, and all the other conspiracy folk are opposed to. Count me in fellas and unfellas (ladies). Count me in. I am a good Christian American who has devoted his life to the persuit of money and worship. I can do no more. I lost the money and now all I have is the worship. I just need to know which of the 30,000 Christian beliefs you all are associated with.
JackPoynter
Good catch, Curious @ 12:34,
I think I'm beginning to experience information overload on this. I actually post on a very small number of all the stuff out there, but there's still too much for me to keep straight easily.
The two adverising agencies are Futerra in England and Fenton in the USA. It turns out that when the AGW folks attack personalities instread of addressing data, they are following the instructions in the advertising playbooks. If they can't answer a question, they shift the subject, again according to the advertising playbooks. They appeal to emotion instead of reason, that being an easier sale. They denigrate the opposition, instead of honestly confronting them, they seek to block publication of the opponent's information, and seek to eliminate their opponents means of publising their viewpoint.
None of that has anything to do with science, but everything to do with marketing. Marketing invoves position, and to be effective, marketing invoves a pre-determined position. This is unacceptable in science. When this much money is on the line, it approaches the criminal. And thus the congressional investigation, and the parliamentary investigation.
rtr
Here is a pretty cool web site with downloadable models to do your own calculations.
We can all become scientists now……{-:
http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/BestEffortGlobalWarmingTrajectories/
Home page with tons of other stuff.
http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/
JackPoynter
Rick, Thanks for the link. It turns out I've already been there, it was in my MSN IE history list. I may even have a comment in the remarks, but that is the most horrible website to deal with, what with all the avertising. It took me half an hour to page through the most recent comments (first page), and there were four more following, so I had to quit, I don't think I'd live long enough to get through them all. If I did leave a comment, it was probably along the lines of a need for antagonistic quality control in their work. Which Peer Review would fill nicely, if all comers were allowed access to their work.
In 1966 I was part of a little group of sacrificial enlisted men called "the dirty thirty" who were used to convert the Corps from second to third generation computers (1401 to 360) as part of JUMPS/MMS/ IIS. In other words, I'm one of the guys you can blame for enabling the shift from the old-style serial numbers to SSN's. The military has repented of that in recent years, and has shifted back to serial numbers, a consummation devoutly to be desired.
Of more relevance, I worked for a contractor to the DOD in the early nineties, based in Tyson's Corners, (our letterhead said MacLean, naturall,) involved in map translation from distribution type to distribution type, along with other map related projects for many civilian organizations as well. Our contact with Greenbelt was in getting map detail taken from aerial photographs and massaging it into vector-based topological distribution sets and databases. None of this was classified, by the way.
So my major interest in that area was in map display support. Our maps were used by many different agencies for digital resource storage and retrieval, weather was part of it, but only for pretty pictures, not modelling.
I was involved with the IBM Mainframes from 1966 until 1990, then a mix of PC and Mainframes thereafter, until about 2003. During those years I was intimately involved either as line personnel or management in the quality control of systems and data, probably Y2K was our finest hour as we buzz-sawed through mountains of programs and data to correct the foolishness of 2-digit year data storage (I remember distinctly one manager saying, "Go ahead and use two digits, by the time it's a problem I'll be retired.) The proof of our work was that when Y2K actually rolled around nothing happened to speak of. But that's the function of support, to be invisible but to make things work seamlessly. There were only two problems that I remember, the state of Maine (or New Hampshire, or Massachusetts, one of those northeastern states) sent out antique automobile registrations to everyone, and Brindisi, Italy, didn't meet its deadline, and simply declared that in Brindisi, 1999 would continue for an additional year. Only in the birthplace of Fellini could that have happened.
With regard to retiring to Florida or Hawaii, that's one of the proofs of Elaine Morgan's Aquatic Ape Thesis: nobody retires to the midwest.
JP
curious
Rick, we identified that link the other day, and it lead us to several others that identified two advertising agencies, one Fenton and the other Fentura, which opens wide the eye to how well some people must have benefited from this scam, as well as others. This was not a casual mistake. You may also find as interest
http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/30/climategate-%E2%80%93-by-andrew-walden/
The ploys used in marketing and the fundamental list of rules these agencies use enlightening and infuriating.
Rick Spencer
Jack, I began withh
computers at the U of Md in 1966 as a graduate assistant after leaving four years of active duty with the USAF. While in the USAF I was a combat qualified Navigator and flew the world. Weather was a primary concern as most flying in those days was around 12000 ft and that was dangerous. Weather is a killer and present day passengers never get the thrill of icing, lighting strikes, buffeting, hours with out knowing where you are, or trying to penetrate multiple fronts over the North Atlantic.
Oddly, the U of Md Computer Science Center was associated with Goddard in Greeenbelt , Md and I had daily contact with the scientists there and those that visited. There was major modeling of wx, moon terrain, etc., by scientists from all over the U.S. The main reason for the association was the two groups together could afford one of the world's largest computers at the time that was an IBM 7094. Only DoD had others like this and possibly some larger. When the IBM 360 came along people from various institutions came to use it. Sounds funny now, doesn't it?
My other association with NASA was that I was normally on the USAF team that was tasked with rescuing the space shots if they came down in unfriendly territory. Fortunately, that never happened. So, all in all, I have maintained an interest in weather and computer modeling for almost 50 years. However, my main interest now is to escape it by spending winters in a warm climate, namely, either Fla or HI.
Here is a very good recent article about the scam that might interest you.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703939404574566124250205490.html
Woody
Jack Thank you for putting this in perspective. I had never heard of this school from anyone on either side of this debate.
JackPoynter
Cash seems to have been banned from my house long time. Comes in, looks around in fright, and runs away to the grocery store, or for rent, or for doctor bills. Oh well, it is what it is. Or was.
From the article (paraphrased)
The NK state is revaluing their currency, while that is in process, all cash transactions have been banned; an absolute cap on cash in banks has been decreed of (I think) around a thousand dollars. Anything over that is lost.
But there is no dissent; no one dares. How sad.
I have often thought that people get the government they deserve. If they won't stand up and fight, nobody dies, but they all lose.
That's why having a republic is so important. We get to use ballots, not bullets, and there's always another election.
curious
Rob, Do I have to start checking your spelling as well as your math. You were probably just being conservative in case the numbers were riddled with errors.
Rob123
"Wilson, loved your perspective. Just one question though. Did the universe cause itself into existence?" oh boy....very timely.....but I look "forward" to it.
rtr
Rob I am also concerned about your spelling and I want you to stop playing with rtr; the multiple back-to-back posts, and he's a bad influence on your english. He's a good kid though, dealing with an inordinate amount of issues and is given to moods.
=============================
You know Bronco if you keep making statements like that I won’t know whether to bushwhack you next time or reach out and give you a hug.
curious
Jack, I absolutely agree, through this transparency, now that the argument has been exposed, may give real numbers. When we were looking the other day at the advertising methods for Fentura and Fenton, and view the monies that may have been made off the global warming agenda it is eye opening. Unfortunately, even when we know the real numbers, I doubt we will ever have a list delineated to show what the real benefit would have been, and has been, for the global warming pushers. Having the correct data, may not still be the real truth.
curious
"North Koreans in shock as cash is 'banned'" The perfect socialistic state, has balanced the value of its people. Could this happen here if we do not get our deficit under control????
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6940482.ece
What is even odder, the only news I can find in US deals with their nuclear and threats to US. So is this real because it is not in the US news?
JackPoynter
Curious, tearing down each other's data is what peer review is all about. A vigorous and sustained debate on this subject will eventually cause a good result. That's what's been missing all along.
You know, I can certainly be convinced on either side with the right information and arguments. It's the lack of debate that I deplore; that and a lack of common sense.
One of the best things to happen is the dichotomy between "hole-in-the-ozone-is-good" and "hole-in-the-ozone-is-bad," which surfaced last night, see my last post. No amount of spin is going to obviate a real decision on what to do about that, and that causes debate within the AGW crowd.
More entertainment from the human zoo.
curious
The other day Jack informed us of "The Global Warming Polilcy Foundation (GWPF) was launched by Lord Lawson, the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, last week to "help restore balance and trust" in the climate change debate. "
Now it looks like nobodies graphs are right. Each side will take turns tearing down the data of the other. Either a ploy to discredit counter opposition by advertising companies, or is it so that no one knows what the heck they are doing. It also appears that spell check is not used at the Telegraph as they can't spell policy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/6703841/Climate-sceptics-get-it-wrong.html
Bronco
Rob, I caught your math error but I was taught never correct your elders so I did not say anything. I am also concerned about your spelling and I want you to stop playing with rtr; the multiple back-to-back posts, and he's a bad influence on your english. He's a good kid though, dealing with an inordinate amount of issues and is given to moods. But he does submit to societal pressures as we have witnessed lately.
On topic: Ayrton Kerrer published his Climatology/Scatology Report today, revealing trends of dismissal and denial beside acceptance and hope concerning the Global Warming issue. Arcane sources were cited from both opponents and supporters. Kerrer did some real digging to uncover even the most removed-from-reality sources in all of reporting history. He located two people on a deserted island and assisted them in removing theirs heads from their arses in order for him to interview them. After several minutes of spitting, blinking, and ear cleaning, one source said, "Whoa, it's warm." and the other said, "No, dude, it's like cold." It appears the jury is still out.
Wilson, loved your perspective. Just one question though. Did the universe cause itself into existence?
JackPoynter
A few things that happened last night:
1. It seems that the hole in the ozone layer that we were all so worried about a while back (no spray cans, remember?) is healing itself, nothing to worry about, except the hole in ozone layer was what was keeping Antarctica cold, except it isn't now, and the ice is melting in part of it, except the ice is increasing in another part of it.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/janetdaley/100018432/newsflash-hole-in-ozone-layer-a-good-thing/
2. This is actually from Nov 28, but people are still careening down that same road:
These people say the hole size is bigger than ever.
I guess we're going to be ok after all.
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=32931
3. And yet, in another case related to the ozone layer, and AGW, the former head of the Goddard Space Flight Center's Earth Sciences Division and the head of the Aura Project, a NASA mission to study the Earth's ozone layer, air quality and climate, has been convicted of fraud for steering no-bid contracts to his wife's business from that agency. Why is this significant? Because his group was also involved in supplying AGW evidence.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Former-NASA-climate-scientist-pleads-guilty-to-contract-fraud-8613137-78268862.html
JackPoynter
Good morning, northern people!
1. Rick Spenser, I started in 1966 on computers also, in the USMC at the MCASC in KCMO. Where were you?
2. The Climatic Research Unit of the University of East Anglia supplied the data for and wrote the guts of the AR3 for IPCC, and controls the largest and most complete climatic research data base; and are in constant contact with the NASA Goddard Space Center which also communicates with and supplies information for the worldwide research on climate issues. That's why this climate email stuff is such a big deal; if they were podunk university that just wrote a paper every once in a while, no one would much care whether they were cooking the books, because normal peer review would have caught it. But the CRU crowd may have been controlling peer reviewers world-wide, by attempting to make sure that only folks sympathetic to their view got to do peer review; and they may have been attempting to make sure that scientific magazines that publish peer-reviewed material would only publish papers sympathetic to their own view. That's why there is a congressional investigation in this country, and a parliamentary investigation in England, and the head of the CRU has stepped down during the parliamentary investigation. And also why the prime minister of Australia has just been replaced by a person less sympathetic to AGW; the climategate furor has been all over the Australian news,
not to mention worldwide.
BTW, SorrySOB, I used to man the help desk for Vectrix corporation in the 1980's; we engineered high res (for the time) graphic display units. When I got a call from a university professor who said our system didn't work, and it couldn't be his BASIC programming because he taught BASIC, I knew right away that the problem was in his BASIC program, because he wasn't looking there. You have to look in the unlikely places as well as the likely places. Tell me what you're trying to do, and how you're doing it, and I'll see if I can give you a hand. The information is there, I look at it every day.
curious
Wilson, Thank you for your candor. This does help me understand better this person on the other side of the computer. Understanding does foster tolerance and acceptance.
So that gets us to the last section. "Hypocrisy is saying you are a Christian then consciously acting outside of the accepted parameters of behavior of a Christian. " If your learning was from the sect of Christianity called Catholic, then this forms a very narrow band of acceptable behavior . There are over 30,000 types of Christianity. And seldom do any of these agree on what the behavior should be. Look at the wars in Europe that existed between the Protestants and the Catholics. I really didn't understand it until I was in Amsterdam, and walked through the churches. I was raised Catholic. I did not agree with their ritualistic teachings. I have tried many denominations. Even in the New Testament, part of the discovery was the visit to the different churches. And they were each judged for their merits. I have a difficult time believing in churches. And I struggle regularly with the concept of God's will. In your discussion, you called it " twist some sort of interpretation out of them you can live comfortably with." The bible is a series of stories that have moralistic values and consequences. I believe God knows the heart. He should be the one that passes judgment on acceptable behavior, not the world.
I agree, when you say " He could appear to everyone at once, do something incredible, leaving no doubt...no chance at all that he doesn’t exist. But he doesn’t. It’s not that he doesn’t care, it’s just that THAT is not God." But I feel he leaves his signature daily in the dew on the leaves, the crystals in the morning frost or just the rustle of the leaves. There are reminders daily that we are all part of something bigger and greater than ourselves. Not everyone agrees with this, but I only have impact to myself. I can't even say control, as no one has any real control.
SorrySOB
Ok Frank. I give. You are the editor of a “mainstream” newspaper after all, which I'm sure gives you the credentials to judge my Internet searching capabilities. Like curious might say, I must have slept through that class while getting my Master degree in Computer Science. Anyway, as I pointed out to others on this forum, which you obviously don't bother to read very well, I am not saying that the exposed emails did not generate news. However, you would like to have everyone think that "everyone" is up in arms about the whole affair and I’m calling you on it. You really really want them to be beating down someone’s door, but they are not. If it was news of the magnitude that you imply it would be on TV, real newspapers, and mainstream news websites. Oh, and please don’t come back with that tired old "liberal media" argument.
Woody
The point , Frank, is that the lie(s) told by this man have no more significance than his place in the debate before his lies were exposed. If this university was a major player then the lie is very significant. If, however, he and the university were nobodies before the lies were exposed then they remain nobodies today. All that has changed is that they (he) are lying nobodies. It is ridiculous to elevate someone's status in the debate because they have been found to be dishonest.
Editor
Woody wrote: "I searched this newspapers website and found that the first and only entry for the University of Easy Anglia. That entry is from last Sunday and is in this column. If the university was not a significant player in the debate before the lies, how can they be one now."
Woody: That is truly funny. Thanks for the laugh. But how did my column,let alone the Inter Lake web site, become the keeper of the records of the science of global warming? If you want to read about the University opf East Anglia, please read the British press... This is the Kalispell Daily Inter Lake, not the London Times. In any case, what you should search for is Hadley Centre Climate Research Unit or CRU since that is what most reporting on the global warming scientists would refer to.
Rick Spencer
I began computer modeling in 1966 on one of the world's largest computers so it was fairly easy for me to ascertain that the "science' gleaned from the Climategate cabal was a lie then, a lie now, and a lie in the future. With these kinds of pseudo-scientists one needs only to follow the money to find their reasoning, funding for fraudulent projects that benefit them and only them.
Reading Frank is reading the truth and I look forward to his weekly musings. Common sense thoughts from a common sense writer. Very refreshing and very unusual. Keep up the good work!
Woody
I searched this newspapers website and found that the first and only entry for the University of Easy Anglia. That entry is from last Sunday and is in this column. If the university was not a significant player in the debate before the lies, how can they be one now. Without Google, I doubt that, as of last Saturday, there is anyone here who could point to within 50 miles of where this school is on a map of the world.
Rob123
"Australia's Parliament defeats global warming bill " Asia News Corp.
Rob123
I'm a little sad that no one noticed the Math on my dispatch yesterday afternoon....." "Repubs who believed in Global Warming had dropped from 74% to 56%...........Dems who believe in Global Warming had dropped from 86% to 72%. They both had 12 point drops." A little fuzzy experiment.....hum.....
Rob123
"Hi Mr. Wilson! can I play in your garden again?"
"What now, Dennis?"
" One of the precepts of both buddhism and science (be it Social or Hard Science) is the correct use of words, right Mr. Wilson?"
"Yes Dennis."
"So what is the difference or what is the similarity between 'Soul' and 'Psyche'? Are they interchangeable words? Are Psychologists and Preachers talking about the same thing, just using different words? Is the Holy Trinity of the Christian Bible actually just Freuds Ego, Super Ego, and Id? Or is it vice-versa? And how come if one runs an electrical current through a corpse you can make the cadaver sit up and move? A big attraction in up scale parlors of Europe 150 years ago?"
"Move along, little Dennis, move along."
Rob123
BadRockBilly: "Do pigeons see the magnetic field of the earth?" I have a neighbor who lives about 1/2 mile away, retired, with about 15 Homing/Racing Pigeons, which he takes out into the woods far, far away and releases. They tend to scream over my property at ground level plus 4 to 8' or so, at the speed of a Falcon, bouncing up over the fence then down until they reach the tree line, then bounce up over the trees at the last second, all without slowing down a bit and all with their 'home/roost' in a straight line. Amazing navigation skills. However, ALL pigeons are not created equal. Most just hang out, eat and p@@p. I have been at war with a bunch of them at one of my warehouses for decades, constantly cleaning up after them, finding their newest entry point and pluging it, A few years ago I pointed them out to some teenagers with good Pellet Rifles who then got in trouble by a passing motorist and I had to step up and admit to the Officer I was the instigator and after the outraged 'citizen' left the Officer smiled a little, gave us all a good chewing out with a touch of 'be stealthy over such sensitive things' and the kids went home. But, your original question, concerning the Magnetic Field, probably. They sure do have something! With our big evolutionary intellects, we lose certain abilities to experience the Earth/Universe in the Now. Like argueing for the reality/position of man made Global Warming and getting frost bite at the same time. Or argueing against Global Warming and breaking through the ice and nearly drowning. Pay attention and deal with what is going on.
Wilson
curious, I’ll start with rtr because I suspect short attention spans lend frustration.
rtr, atheism is not a religion because religions have god(s). See Buddhism. Read my comment and you will see that I do believe in God. I just don’t believe in yours because he really isn’t godlike; your god is more human. I have shelves of books on religion, spirituality, and philosophy; I didn’t just shut off my mind when I thought I had found The Truth. I was an altar boy then began indoctrination into the priesthood. I met a wonderful woman and fell in love with her and she with me. She’s in the other room right now cooking the books, surrounded by photos of our children and theirs and theirs. As far as you becoming a Muslim you don’t even have the strength to become a Christian unless the rules have been relaxed yet again. Like being a man, calling yourself one doesn’t make you one.
Curious, your Question #1, So the question is maybe (you have a soul), except you are not sure because it might be your ego constructing this thought to protect you from Mortality?
Good thinking. Through the discipline of meditation one can discover hidden aspects to being that the conscious mind is unaware of. Like I said, I AM a soul; I don’t possess one. By your thinking, the soul goes on to an eternity, does it take YOU with it as a reward for your good behavior, or in the case of your evil behavior, to hades?
Your Question #2, So eternity exists, but you are not really sure based on the answer to this question that you will evolve to be a presence in it?
Let me repeat: Eternity is a constant NOW, beyond the constricts of time. I don’t know if souls evolve. I will say this; energy can be altered but it cannot snap out of existence. We are energy beings (souls).
Your #3, So you then stated in simple words, that persons start off with inherently different destinies?
Destinies? I am not a fatalist. People start off or develop differently. Maybe a variety of souls and that lends to considering evolution of souls too. Why not? Eternal stasis would lead to boredom.
Your #4, I understand that you are still struggling with this one, and God (whatever that higher power is to you) is there for you when your ego fails you?
I don’t regard it as a ‘struggle’ per se. More of a quest. My god is not separate from me or you or Frank or Rob or Ben or rtr (Gulp!) or this universe. He doesn’t exist in another place. He doesn’t write books or inspire them. He doesn’t appear in order to change the course of events or influence people. He doesn’t create souls, most of which get lost and burn FOREVER if they slight him by wearing the wrong clothes or eating forbidden food or not capitalizing his name. He doesn’t hold court in a special place. He doesn’t have an enemy named Satan whom he is going to fight a war with (Immortals vs. Immortals, how does one defeat an immortal?).
Now, you have spoken of me having a soul which implies two parts to Wilson; him and his soul. Then you ask what if my ego fails me. Now there are three! Wilson, his soul, and his ego. We are confused.
You also offered: If by having faith in God, and then not acting as a servant to your conversations, is considered hypocritical…
That makes no sense. Hypocrisy is saying you are a Christian then consciously acting outside of the accepted parameters of behavior of a Christian. If you have not cared enough to actually study Christian dogma then how can you qualify as one? Your bible is rife with laws from God that, if you obeyed them, would either land you in prison or leave you without any friends. If you do know them, you will just ignore them or twist some sort of interpretation out of them you can live comfortably with. The God of the Bible won’t have mercy on you if you don’t know the Laws. You can’t just cite John 3:16 and get to heaven. If it were that easy, and God really wanted you with him, he would have made sure everybody would have NO doubt. He could appear to everyone at once, do something incredible, leaving no doubt...no chance at all that he doesn’t exist. But he doesn’t. It’s not that he doesn’t care, it’s just that THAT is not God.
BadRockBilly
Benznd; I listened to a man talking about the division of embryonic cells from conception, thru a series of geometrical arangements of the cells until the arrangement results in the shape of a torus. With the cells so arranged, the first organ, the human heart is formed. All other bodily components extend from this formation.
One other thing, with the cells in the shape of this torus an electric field is developed.
We all know electric fields can interact with other fields at great distances.
Would you agree that the polarity of the individual cells gathered in a geometric form would develop into a shaped charge that would be sensitive to the cosmic macrochord?
Do pigeons see the magnetic field of the earth?
fun gal
I NEVER said I didn't post at CDA Press. "Someone" accused the liberals of running all of the conservatives off of the Press. That confused me, because NO CONSERVATIVES have been run off the the CDA Press. I thought "someone" might have meant a "different" paper. They are all still there, loud and clear. "Someone" misunderstood my statement. I have never met Hagedone. "Someone" has their panties in a bunch.
rtr
fun gal
I have never claimed I didn't post at the CDA Press.
====================
You must have a short memory since is was only two weeks ago that you denied it and said you had only posted to the Postfalls paper.
Did Hagadone send you over here to sell his liberalism..............?
Nice try with the Bighorn and Bronco posts, I wouldn't even wish you on them.
Again LEAVE MY POSTS ALONE.
rtr
Hey SorrySOB, It doesn’t look like that whiskey agrees with you very much, Are you part Indian like me too, Might I suggest beer.
Editor
I cannot quite see why it is so hard for SorrySOB to find out anything about this Climategate scandal. It really makes me worried about the younger generation's ability to navigate the Information Superhighway.
How can he say, "this web site seems to be the only place where anyone is really still interested in the subject," when there is so much reporting and discussion of this scandal available? I mean, how much effort does it take to do a Google News search for "Climategate?" Yeah, you will find Fox News there, but also the Wall Street Journal, CBS News, the Boston Globe, US News and World Report, the Australian, the Huffington Post, the UK Telegraph, etc. etc.
If the Inter Lake really can take credit for this story going worldwide, then I accept your kudos gladly. Unfortunately for me, however, I think it is more likely that Climategate gets 13 million Google hits because it is an important story as acknowledged by the entire world other than one who calls himself rather descriptively SorrySOB.
fun gal
I have never claimed I didn't post at the CDA Press. I still do. Regularly. Never met Hagedone, but I do like the way he has his papers set up. I've done nothing to your post's. I was commenting regarding Bighorn & Bronco's posts. That IS allowed.
benznd
Scientists at Monash University, in collaboration with colleagues from the universities of Wollongong and Ulm in Germany, have produced tandem dye-sensitised solar cells with a three-fold increase in energy conversion efficiency compared with previously reported tandem dye-sensitised solar cells. Lead researcher Dr Udo Bach, from Monash University, said the breakthrough had the potential to increase the energy generation performance of the cells and make them a viable and competitive alternative to traditional silicon solar cells.
A little uplift on the "Greening" of ......
And now some current research related to THE obsessed and compulsed blogger on this site. "Mathematical model of a simple circuit in a chicken brain raises fundamental questions." (-:
30,000 more troops to Afghanistan. $30,000,000,000. And a trillion seconds is 32,000 years. The unfunded cost of the Iraq war?
curious, the research on religion was not aimed at anyone. It is important for us all
to understand what connects to the hip bone so-to-speak. We have fMRI's that can identify the active part of the brain related to specific tasks. Scientists identified the activated area of the brain to questions concerning religion. What does gGod
think? They then posed questions to the same individuals, related to their OWN thoughts about different subjects as well as personal religious thoughts. The same area was activated. Current research since we were feverishly engaged in religion.
rtr
SorrySOB
First rtr and now curious. Would you please go back and find anywhere that I said global warming does or does not exist or called anyone a liar?
=======================
You must have not read far enough down to see where I said I was wrong again so I will repost it here for you again.
My mistake again, I thought your conitinuos insults of Frank running this column was because you believed in Global Warming, Now I find out you are very HAPPY Frank and Fox news exposed the truth about the Globalony..........I am going to have to read your posts closer next time can see that.
SorrySOB
Oh, and by the way. Speaking of liars, I appreciate having the honor of proving someone wrong by doing the "Snopes" research. Apparently, you would prefer blatant lies as long as they support your conservative views.
SorrySOB
First rtr and now curious. Would you please go back and find anywhere that I said global warming does or does not exist or called anyone a liar? If you are going to get high, mighty, and matronly at least get the facts straight. As I said earlier, I really don't give a rip about global warming either way. There are lots of bad things around that will do us in before that. I am simply enjoying all of the political posturing about "Climategate 2009" that pretty much everyone else in the world is still considering a non-issue (and apparently ruffling a few feathers in the meantime - is there some rule that we can only have one of "those" on this forum?)
BadRockBilly
Wilson: I write two sentences and you are able to write my biography.
1.Ther are more things in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy,
Horatio.
2.How many Swedenborgians are there Wilson?
I thought your number of 2 Billion Christians was too high and I'll admit it was a bit of a goad to ask how many members constitute the rarest assembly I knew about .
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Be careful, BadRockBilly, your holier-than-thou is showing. But Ccurious won't pester you since it's her ad hoc righteous beliefs you're supporting. Don't worry though. She forgives conservatives if they are just being themselves no matter how dastardly their behavior under the guise of "To thine own self be true." But I would also quote Polonius as a direct to you: "Give every man thine ear, but few thy voice." You quip about Swedenborg and his vision-driven life but fail to recognize that yours is driven by secondhand visions...or have you had one lately or are borrowed visions enough?
___________________________________________
rtr
Would that be the same cdapress you denied posting to a couple weeks ago when I pointed out where you were from and that your name is all over on the internet there "Black Widow".
If anyone had to do with Hagadone it would be YOU.
Like I told you before "Black Widow" leave my posts alone.
fun gal
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I see he's up to the same things as he was at the CDA Press. Gotta love Hagedone for the comedy.
rtr
Correction
You know I was told one time if I didn't like my job I shouldn't work there "There is a meaning in that for you and it goes beyond work"
rtr
Bighorn
On topic for more than a day." Okay, if that's all we're looking for. Go for it. That does seem to be a record. Collect your medal.
=======================================
You know I was told one time if I didn't like my job I should work there "There is a meaning in that for you and it goes beyond work"
Also NO ONE here has been advocating democrats, republicans, libertarins you know the deal...
Whats the matter Bighorn can't you deal with a normal conversation without selling your politics?
Bighorn0216
Really, rtr, no one even passed a fart over your threats of flooding the threads with your paste-and-cuts. Do you not know how easy, or how ordinary, it was to scroll past your "threats"? Did you really think anyone was reading that garbage? Any more than the completely fake birther blurb you posted a few hours ago? Didn't its being exposed as a tired lie even embarrass you a little?
"On topic for more than a day." Okay, if that's all we're looking for. Go for it. That does seem to be a record. Collect your medal.
rtr
Rob
Repubs and Moderate Dems to snope Afghanistan and see we have our troops stuck right in the middle of a War by Proxy between India and Pakistan
=====================
I realize this is off topic for Bighorn but it is current events with Obama's speech tonight adding 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan.
What did you mean by the above statement, I am curious, As you know I believe 3/4 of these wars expansions we have today are to keep the young people out of the unemployment lines but I don't quite get your meaning here?
rtr
Bronco
So no one here supports the notion that the Earth is warming? Or that it is warming but without human interference? Pardon me but I read too many rtr posts and have entered a state of confusion.
===============================
I have to admit Bronco every great once in awhile I just get this uncontrolable urge to thow a curve ball............I notice you have done it a time or two also......{-:
rtr
Bighorn
But when folks here asked for some civility, they were scatter-shot by you as "troublemakers"
======================
You know those are pretty big words coming from you since I at one time flooded this blog in order to get you liberals to quit your constant insults and platform building to any and every conservative that posted here.
You know this isn't ACORN or a place to get people passing through to buy into your political beliefs "At least not any more and if you notice the blog has been way more intelegent since you quit posting" "Oh and by the way it has even been on topic for more than a day with the few side comments"
Is it making you mad that everyone for the most part is getting along.???????????????
Bronco
So no one here supports the notion that the Earth is warming? Or that it is warming but without human interference? Pardon me but I read too many rtr posts and have entered a state of confusion.
nat-res, I know you were not one who complained when I got tossed. I disagree with you that this is a family-oriented newspaper insomuch that the news and comments are R rated.
rtr, this happened in May. Pre- rls even. But thanks for clearing your good name anyway. One must make the effort.
rtr
Wilson
Bronco, I have fifteen hardbound volumes of the Catholic Encyclopedia on my bookshelf. Its impartial views about theology, history, philosophy, science, even apologetics offers some hope to us non-delusionists.
======================================
I am not a Catholic but with your disbelief or what ever you call it and that many books and information I would like to ask were you the Priest or the Choir boy that turned you against believing in a God so much? "Honest question"
Bighorn0216
Frank asks:
Why would you be offended? Because you are a Marxist?
______________________________________
Darn it, I compliment you, and you spit on me. Well, okay, let's work with it, since it's what we have to work with here.
I wasn't offended. To be offended, I'd have had to believe what you said, to have taken it to heart, and then to have decided that it mattered to me. But when folks here asked for some civility, they were scatter-shot by you as "troublemakers" themselves (because they reached a level of satiation with insult and they began to respond in kind), so moderation is out of the question, and it wasn't a reach to pick out sampler comment among many from your own columns. Come on, are you saying that you don't choose your words carefully for effect? And, no, I'm not a Marxist--but thanks for playing the rtr name game--and I'm not interested in being one. I have always carried my own economic weight, and to this day I work seven days a week at my job. But Marxistly, perhaps, a lot of my income goes back to family members who aren't so lucky as I am, either because they're elderly or disabled. I couldn't even tell you what the climate changes have been around me in the past couple of years, because I've been in the office.
Our internet abrasions are pretty insignificant and droll, though. "Farts in a whirlwind," as one of my FHS coaches used to say. 30,000 troops have job security now (as long as they live), because they're going to go to Afghanistan for a tour. Lots of folks who voted for the current administration are disappointed, but lots of other-minded folks aren't. Obama's in a no-win situation--unless we actually accomplish something in the region that centuries' worth of warfare hasn't. The Dems are appalled at his latest, the Repubs are applauding; had he done the opposite, everyone's blog posts would have been opposite, and the DIL editorials would have shifted likewise. Hannity and Limbaugh are covered either way.
The "wonderful" thing about blogs and comment threads and editorials is that: none of us have our heads on the block, with an up-or-down vote. We can all say whatever we want to. We can post phony reports from the birthers' attorney's site about an upcoming birth-certificate decision, and then "Smile" it off when the hoax is exposed.
Off-topic, I had a very interesting judicial opinion cross my desk today, not a new one, about the management of Kerr Dam and the damage that artificially high lake levels late in the season are doing to the lakeshore. I lost an hour of my time ticket (I'll make it up somehow) immersed in the hometown "news."
Frank says:
By the way, you have an assumption that lack of "moderation" is why the commenters on this column don't stay on topic.
__________________________________________
No, as I suggested in an earlier post, the threads go immediately off topic because, for reasons I truly cannot understand, everyone--on both sides of the aisle-- thinks that every one of your columns is about rtr, and that that's the only thing or person or cut-and-paste that should be discussed. I wish it were otherwise. I accept now that it isn't going to be.
Now for godssake, people are debating theology. That should steer things toward a sound and useful dialectic. For the record, though I was once headed for seminary, I now find the evidence completely insufficient.
Fire at will.
rtr
SorrySOB
That's good enough for me as long as you conservatives promise to cheer them on the next time they hack Sarah Palin's email, or Rush's prescription order at Walgreens, or whatever it is you folks care about on any given day.
=========================
That's a fair statement and there is a big difference between trying to invent something out of hacked dirt than there is criminal activity which is what this Globalony CR*P is..
rtr
Wilson
rtr. you can worship whoever or whatever you like. Just don't harm anybody in the process.
==========================================
Wilson with that in mind you just ruled out my ability to become a Muslim, Was that a subliminally racist comment or what since you didn’t offer me with a place to sign up for your religion of atheism.
SorrySOB
"There is a difference between hacking to cause damage and hacking to expose criminal activity."
That's good enough for me as long as you conservatives promise to cheer them on the next time they hack Sarah Palin's email, or Rush's prescription order at Walgreens, or whatever it is you folks care about on any given day.
curious
Rob, curious....ya got me curious now. Your statement " Since when did a question assume judgement? It looks like your bigotry and intolerance for different opinions, makes it very difficult for you to assimulate into society doesn't it?" seems just a tad judgemental?
Yes, it was judgemental,
Sorrysob said "It appears we are now being judged by posters on this forum based on our religious beliefs (or lack of). Gosh, I thought you mighty christians would have read your book by now and found that your higher power is supposed to be the one judging. Could someone please enlighten me as to why you are somehow better?"
At that point I hadn't judged, I was just trying to figure out what was driving Wilson, nothing more nothing less, Then Sorry, which to me appears out of nowhere, spewing stuff like a loyal protecting mad dog, and it wasn't any of his concern, as I am certain Wilson is very capable to speaking for himself. I have since found value in SorrySOB, he can be our snopes checker. He complains daily that he can't find information on Global anything on TV to support Climategate, but he is not bringing anything that disputes this. And he has not brought forth data that would indicate that Climategate is false. So whatever, I understand why you need to help him out here. I will just ignore him.
fun gal
ooooooh Black Widow, I like it.................
rtr
Regarding the ‘Hackers’ and newspapers:
"There is a difference between hacking to cause damage and hacking to expose criminal activity. The ‘hackers’ activities are similar to that of the newspapers which was to expose the shady deals that the government got into by exposing their activities to the light of day. A task of which the newspapers seem to be failing at recently. But this is exactly what these hackers have done; exposing the nefarious activities of the government. In addition, the efforts of these hackers will save the US taxpayers billions of dollars and the world trillions of dollars compared to what would happen if the ‘man made global warming' and / or it's morphed change in name (but essentially the same idea) 'Climate Change' programs were ever implemented. These people should be given the Nobel Prize for their efforts as they actually did something substantial that will help the people of the world, unlike several other recipients of that prize that I could name. But that is not how it is done these days is it? For you know they will burn these people when they find them".
SorrySOB you had a question on why someone would condone these hackers, I hope this ansewers your question.
This is your Tax money you know and just think if the rest of Obama's explotes are exposed we might even get the trickle down affect.
"the efforts of these hackers will save the US taxpayers billions of dollars and the world trillions of dollars "
rtr
Natres
could this mean that the textbooks in the childrens classrooms will be restored to the truth about Global Warming Agenda in the near future?
==========================
They may take some of it out but I am sure the will violate their own perceived church and state rule and add more religious Darwinism to replace it with and add some more of Al Gores over population theory.
rtr
Rob
rtr....As long as it's electric. I'm feeling generous today
=======================
Thats' awful kind of you but I had more in mind of my 700 Grizzly, Guess that's out of the question...{-:
Rob123
rtr....As long as it's electric. I'm feeling generous today, so you can borrow my granddaughters. She's outgrown it.....(-:
rtr
SorrySOB
rtr, I haven't said anything about anybody being "liars" with the global warming thing.
======================
My mistake again, I thought your conitinuos insults of Frank running this column was because you believed in Global Warming, Now I find out you are very HAPPY Frank and Fox news exposed the truth about the Globalony..........I am going to have to read your posts closer next time can see that.
rtr
Hey Rob, If you are going to let Natres keep his Harley does that mean I can ride my ATV on your walking path....Sorry I couldn't that....{-:
Rob123
NatRes: As of yesterday, Repubs who believed in Global Warming had dropped from 74% to 56%...........Dems who believe in Global Warming had dropped from 86% to 72%. They both had 12 point drops. Surely that means .............Your getting through, man! Your Harley is safe.
SorrySOB
rtr, I haven't said anything about anybody being "liars" with the global warming thing. I challenge you to find where I said that. What I have been saying however, is that this web site seems to be the only place where anyone is really still interested in the subject. In a nutshell, a firecracker that had promise but got dropped in a mud puddle and fizzled. A dud.
naturalresources
Drudge Report :CLIMATEGATE: UK scientist to temporarily step down...
Penn State Professor also under investigation... .....could this mean that the textbooks in the childrens classrooms will be restored to the truth about Global Warming Agenda in the near future? Seriously doubt it but one has to dream big to counteract the decietfull liberal agendas that have been sweeping throughout the globe for years. These maniacs have absolutely no shame about their influence on the economy and world events that thrust us into chaos and financial disaster.
SorrySOB
Thank for explaining curious, exactly why you think you are better than me. It has not so much to do with religion as it does your superiority in posting much more interesting material. Oh well, we can't all be compelling and interesting conservatives. However , I think I will keep posting, but will keep in mind that my posts won't be up to your standards.
JackPoynter
Professor Phil Jones of the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit has stepped down while an investigation is in process.
http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/12/01/tech-climate-east-anglia.html
The influx of news stories continues, but mostly it's rehashing the stuff already reported. This is an exception.
rtr
SorrySOB
There goes rtr, spewing misinformation as usual. See Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/carter.asp
Just keep spouting bs and you and Frank will continue getting along just fine.
=============================
You are correct but like I said you probably won't be seeing it on your liberal news "Smile", I am confused as to what Frank has to do with it however.
With that in mind you keep calling everyone of us here that has posted DIFFERENT stuff about the Global Warming hoax liars "Are you just throwing that out there or is it that you can't find any proof to back up your claims either".
Rob123
curious....ya got me curious now. Your statement " Since when did a question assume judgement? It looks like your bigotry and intolerance for different opinions, makes it very difficult for you to assimulate into society doesn't it?" seems just a tad judgemental? Or am I reading something into it? I could wait for Pete to explain it to me, but I guess the cats got his tongue lately.
curious
SorrySOB, As I look back on your posts, I am having a difficulty seeing any constructive additives, either in the form of dialog or added knowledge. More like the excited puppy, wagging his tail and pleasing his owner? Puddles are possible. I realize you like to represent the liberals, and provide support. I see intelligence on that side of the fence too. So I see you as more of a distraction to learning and growth.
curious
SorrySOB, It appears we are now being judged by posters on this forum based on our religious beliefs (or lack of).
_________
you are confused. There is no discussion of judgement. Since when did a question assume judgement? It looks like your bigotry and intolerance for different opinions, makes it very difficult for you to assimulate into society doesn't it? Why do you appear to be such an angry person? Do you lack control of your own life?
Rob123
SorrySOB....Thanks for the snopes.....Saved me some time. Being sensitive, I hate messing with absolute cr@p, unless I have too. Again, thank you......Now if we could just get the Repubs and Moderate Dems to snope Afghanistan and see we have our troops stuck right in the middle of a War by Proxy between India and Pakistan , we might wake up and smell the roses and bring our troops home.
Rob123
Mr. Wison......Very good! (-: Being and Time is the only way to proceed, I assume? I like these big steps.......
SorrySOB
It appears we are now being judged by posters on this forum based on our religious beliefs (or lack of). Gosh, I thought you mighty christians would have read your book by now and found that your higher power is supposed to be the one judging. Could someone please enlighten me as to why you are somehow better?
SorrySOB
There goes rtr, spewing misinformation as usual. See Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/carter.asp
Just keep spouting bs and you and Frank will continue getting along just fine.
Wilson
When Nietzsche's quote "God is dead" is tossed about one would assume atheism is the core meaning. But I would have to agree with Fred's belief that developments in modern science and the increasing secularization of society has effectively 'killed' the Christian God. The quote was about an idea or concept that was invented by a less enlightened people who lived thousands of years ago and had little knowledge about how the world works.
rtr. you can worship whoever or whatever you like. Just don't harm anybody in the process.
curious
Wilson,
Question #1, So the question is maybe, except you are not sure because it might be your ego constructing this thought to protect you from Mortality?
Question #2, So eternity exists, but you are not really sure based on the answer to this question that you will evolve to be a presence in it?
Question #3, I think Shakespeare was discussing what we consider asocial behavior as a result of the thinking making it so, and not conforming to what society has deemed right and wrong. Perception is ones one reality. So you then stated in simple words, that persons start off with inherently different destinies?
Question #4, I understand that you are still struggling with this one, and God (whatever that higher power is to you) is there for you when your ego fails you?
I have not engaged in hypocritical behavior toward you. I have not lead you down any merry road to offer up my thoughts different than they are. If by having faith in God, and then not acting as a servant to your conversations, is considered hypocritical, you probably have a different thought, and have put everyone that ever said they believed in God in the same bucket. Incapable of concluding anything different than the other. Incapable of free will, or thought of any importance. Is that what you think? Is that why you state that keeping an open mind is difficult? Is this conviction from your own history?
I have not tried to change you, But if my paraphrased assumptions are, based on your answer, are correct; I can understand you better.
rtr
FEDERAL JUDGE Carter sets Trial Date for Obama's Eligibility!!!
“The expedited trial has been set for Jan. 26, 2010, just 4 1/2 months from now!
The judge, WHO IS A FORMER U.S. MARINE, repeated several times that
this is A VERY SERIOUS CASE which must be resolved quickly so that
the troops know that their Commander in Chief is eligible to hold
that position and issue lawful orders to our military in this time of
war. He basically said OBAMA MUST PROVE HIS ELIGIBILITY to the
court! He said Americans deserve to know the truth about their
President!
The two U.S. Attorneys representing Barack Obama tried everything
they could to sway the judge that this case was frivolous, but Carter
would have none of it and cut them off several times.. Obama's
attorneys left the courtroom after about the 90 minute hearing
looking defeated and nervous”.
This probably won’t make the liberal TV channels either but you can see it is plastered all over the internet by searching “Google FEDERAL JUDGE Carter sets Trial Date”
Rob123
"Hey Mr. Wilson, can I play in your Garden?"
"Why sure, Dennis. Just don't step on the Lotus Petal."
"But Mr. Wilson, the Egyptians used to step on them. Grind them up, put them in a jar with vinegar and copper and then they had an electrical source for their Lotus Petal light inside their pyramids so they could build giant tombs for their afterlife. Not enough O2 for torches.The Buddhists thought the Lotus Petal was something else, and the Judeo-Christian folks thought the Whole Body lived on, while the folks in Baghdad used the current to copper plate stuff."
"Time to leave, Dennis!"
"Want a copy of my Portable Nietsche, Mr. Wilson? It's a Kauffman edition?"
rtr
Rob
Can you imagine trying to reinstate the "End Speed Zone" that Montana had when I was growing up and in High School/College? It would be crazy. People can't handle such responsibility anymore.
======================
This is where you and me differ.
1. It was not a problem your right and I remember those days too. “open speed limit”
2. Then there was government regulations for a 55 MPH speed limit and NO followed it of course that meant 99% of the people broke the law because it was a terrible law.
3. You say people can't handle that responsibility and I say BUNK.
4. It has been the regulations of the feel good I'll take care of you and protect you from yourself mentality that has dumbed down society that you claim can't handle things any more so now we have to be regulated. “That just doesn’t make any sense to me”
Remember when it was OK to kick someones A$$ because they were being stupid, out of control you name it, Nowdays you go to jail for battery and the stupid out of control guy goes free because of that same kind of mentality. "Food for thought"
Rob123
Well, rtr, in your writings at least, you are still coming across as the Bull of the Woods. Such a rhetoric level was big in the 80's and 90's, but, such rhetoric HAS lost. Sharing is the new word. When I used to Cross Country Ski or Snow Shoe into areas, you have no idea how infuriating it is to be 3 or 5 miles in and a bunch of snowmobilers come roaring up (ya can here them for miles) and then buzz around screwing up the snow. I also have a snowmobile, and when I take it out to a spot, and there is a set of ski tracks headed up to where I had planned on going, I have the curtiousy to go some place else. It's called RESPECT, and it needs to be mutual. That is all I am saying. Yet, the Knotheads of the World persist in their Bull of the Woods games (far R and far L) even out in the great outdoors. A poll in the WSJ last week asked football fans & players if it was ok to do certain infractions on a football field KNOWING the ref wouldn't see it. 78% of fans said yes. 85% of players said yes. Great Culture we have morphed into? Can you imagine trying to reinstate the "End Speed Zone" that Montana had when I was growing up and in High School/College? It would be crazy. People can't handle such responsibility anymore. Yet I remember driving the Swan Lake Road at 85+MPH on gravel, and when ya saw a rooster tail of dust coming, ya slowed down......Chips in the window were rare, because the other person slowed down too.
rtr
Hey Wilson, Maybe you could sign me up for that church of atheism you belong to, are they taking new members?.
I am convinced you are of a higher power than the rest of us.
Wilson
curious, I am a soul, I do not possess one. My soul possesses an ego which is convinced it is me, Wilson. The ego needs to convince itself that it will exist forever and constructs its own immortality out of fear. Do you think a Supreme Entity actually handed you a soul like a gift? If so, where did the YOU come from?
There is everything beyond the here and now. Time is not a constant in this universe. Everything is being and becoming here. The past is memory, etched in your brain or on cave walls or in the rocks themselves. But these non-material concepts, like love, courage, loyalty; can they be sourced from a physical universe? I believe not. Why would the universe contrive to assemble beings like ourselves who can contemplate such matters, who go to great lengths to discover the mysteries of our world? Eternity is a constant now beyond the constricts of time.
Was it Shakespeare who said, "Nothing is right or wrong, but thinking makes it so"? Your evil may not be evil to me. The Koran considers any religion besides Islam to be evil. The Bible any religion besides Judaism and Christianity is evil. Good and evil are relative. But in the manner in which you address them, yes. Studies show that identical twins, with the same social circle, the same upbringing, etc. often are opposites concerning appropriate behavior. Contrary to what you have been taught, we are not created equal.
I do believe in God. My interpretation differs from yours though. I love being alive. My ego feels my soul's presence: it needs only a glimpse from time to time to avoid hopelessness and despair. God is everything: if he's God, how could he be anything less?
You misunderstand my "attacks." I have little patience with hypocritical behavior even when the person is exhibiting such out of ignorance. And ignorance is not a bad thing. Your attacks stem from and in defense of what you know and what you believe. Keeping an open mind is difficult, especially upon realizing there is an overwhelming amount of knowledge out there and that one could never grasp it all. What you may have failed to understand is that at one time I was on the same level of belief, understanding, and knowledge as regards religion and philosophy as others are now.
Good talking with you...
rtr
Rob
Just keep up with your Laissez Faire mantra. You have, however, lost. And lost big time
=====================
I didn't loose any thing since it wasn't a battle for me.
I wasn't looking for a fight at all and we seem to be miss communicating more than anything, I was just trying to get a feel for where you were coming from with the Wall Street stuff as compared to it being private property and public land "Forest Service".
I was not doubting you at all with you knowing who the person was I was merely asking who it was. Take a breath, relax, seriously it was not a battle....
I do not know and have never heard of the person you are reffering to and it appeared you meant it was someone posting here..
I think we both agree the enviromentalist would go to NO lengths to lock up OUR forests, forest service land using Global Warming laws if they thought they could get away with it.
Prime example is Peters Ridge which I use to ride my motor cycle there with my friends all the time and it is closed now along with Jewel Basin which made for great fun and it has all been taken away NOT only from people like me but anyone that can't walk very far has lost a lot because of the likes of the Swan Coalition and other such origizations. "Maybe I am missing something you were trying to tell me, I am not sure"
I promice I did not mean to up set you.
curious
Rob, my intent is not to judge him, but merely understand. Heck it not even my goal to try to change him. Knowledge can often bring about acceptance.
curious
So you are saying that Wilson has no beliefs as tied to faith, only convictions based on actual experience? So if it didn't happen to him, it is not real?
Rob123
rtr......My dad called him Bill, but I was 16, so I called him Mr. Hazelton.........That help your doubts any?
Rob123
Curious.....Change "believe" to "Experienced" and try again?
Rob123
rtr: If you don't know the difference between sustained yield and clear cuts, well, I'm not going to argue with you. Ya know, your infuriating. Why do you think the mature trees on National Forest land were put off limits? Islands of mature trees surrounded by clear cuts......There is still logging going on, but it's nasty and litigenous and whole life styles have been broken; but Goldman Sack made a fortune off the deal.
Just keep up with your Laissez Faire mantra. You have, however, lost. And lost big time.
curious
Wilson, I have a couple of questions for you? I am not trying to be flippant, I just want to try to understand.
Do you believe you have a soul?
Do you believe there is anything beyond the here and now?
Do you believe that people are either inherently good or bad, as a product of their upbringing?
Do you believe in a God?
I understand that I could be opening this up to a ton of rhetoric that does not answer these questions, but would simply like to understand this person who appears to be on the attack, and defenses quickly to everyone else's philosophy' s. I just want to know your pragmatic thoughts to these questions.
rtr
Rob
One of the folks with our little band was the President of St. Regis Paper, who had his company eaten up by a smaller competitor called Champion International with the help of Goldman Sachs.
================================
Who would that be "President of St. Regis Paper" and second it was their land they were logging and not forest service so what's your beef?
If I want to log my place I will and if I want to sell it to someone and they go through Goldman Sachs to purchase it I could careless and it would be none of your business either so again what is your beef?
There is literaly MILLIONS of acers of mature and harvestable trees on forest service land right now that is being held up "Hostage" by the court system was my point.
"A mood point right now with the current economy however" but if they could get more global warming laws passed they would use them to close even more forest land.
Kind of like the "Black Widow" that stopped in for a bit yesterday and proclaimed the temprature has risen 6 degrees and that is why the beetles are here which even you pointed out was nothing but BUNK..
I guess I am just not quite sure where you are coming from when you leave out the details.
curious
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2625814
James Inhofe is the top Republican on the Senate Environment Committee, this committee is headed by Barbara Boxer.
This is a floor speech from January 4, 2005 by James Inhofe, http://inhofe.senate.gov/pressreleases/climateupdate.htm
An interview with Inhofe November 23, 2009 http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2625814
Just another view of our politicians in action.
Wilson
Be careful, BadRockBilly, your holier-than-thou is showing. But Ccurious won't pester you since it's her ad hoc righteous beliefs you're supporting. Don't worry though. She forgives conservatives if they are just being themselves no matter how dastardly their behavior under the guise of "To thine own self be true." But I would also quote Polonius as a direct to you: "Give every man thine ear, but few thy voice." You quip about Swedenborg and his vision-driven life but fail to recognize that yours is driven by secondhand visions...or have you had one lately or are borrowed visions enough?
SorrySOB, would that be the 'wand' of mass destruction?
My, Rob, one could take it we're being accused of being empiricists with Hume as our prophet. Something we learned in 'Kant-echism'? Don't upset the status quo, shiver, shiver, for thou shalt be smited (smitten?) Is it any wonder the word 'fear' appears 400 times in 385 verses but 'love' only 311 times in 281? Makes one wonder about the whole gGod of Love premise.
Bronco, I have fifteen hardbound volumes of the Catholic Encyclopedia on my bookshelf. Its impartial views about theology, history, philosophy, science, even apologetics offers some hope to us non-delusionists. Keep searching with your open mind and never stop becoming. Follow that greatest commandment no matter what your god is called.
Rob123
Well, rtr, your Blue Collar agenda is showing......
"As for all your Wall Street comments they didn't make much sense at all....."
Do you understand M & A, and the financing of such things? See that Sable Antelope above the sleeping Setters? One of the folks with our little band was the President of St. Regis Paper, who had his company eaten up by a smaller competitor called Champion International with the help of Goldman Sachs and some excellent photo's, courtesy of Russian Spy Satellites that would sell pictures to the highest bidder in resolutions that are still illigal for American Commercial Satellites, of St. Regis's land and the amount of merchantable Timber available if one 'cut and run' and sold the equipment from the mills when the trees disappeared. Champion WAS a paper company. No real interest in Saw Logs, except to pay down the debt and keep the St Regis's Paper Mills. A lot of Porsches were bought in NYC off of NW Montana trees. I'm no friend of the swan, nor am I a democrat. But I do understand forces that happen that are bigger than me.
rtr
SorrtSOB
Nat, you say "liberalism is a mental disorder". I point at rtr and say, "I know you are but what am I?"
=============================
You have contributed what to this blog did you say? Yeah I thought so.
JackPoynter
In the interest of including information from all sides, the Ecorazzi have found more celebrities to push AGW.
Famous scientists among them include:
Chevy Chase, Jason Mraz, Alanis Morissette, Simon Baker, Amy Smart, Cedric the Entertainer, Olivia Wilde, Dana Delany
http://www.ecorazzi.com/2009/12/01/chevy-chase-jason-mraz-join-celebs-in-asking-for-climate-action-in-copenhagen/
rtr
Hey naturalresources, I didn't see anywhere that Bronco said he was kicked off until after the fact of what Wilson stated and brought it up.
It appears they have already taken that Harley ride together long before you mentioned it would be a good thing.
By the way Bronco it wasn't me that complained either since I didn't even know what it was or seen your post with that in it. "I have noticed a lot of your other sexual inuendos however and Wilson seems to have that same problem which was noted yesterday"
SorrySOB
Nat, you say "liberalism is a mental disorder". I point at rtr and say, "I know you are but what am I?"
naturalresources
Bronco, for the record, I was not one of the one's that complained about the "bukaki facial" comment. I did, however find it somewhat amusing that someone of your literary status and wordly knowledge would spew forth such controversial nonsense in a family oriented newspaper. In my final analysis of the comment, I merely considered the source.
rtr
http://en.cop15.dk/frontpage
UNITED NATIONS CLIMATE CONFERENCE DEC 7-DEC 18 2009
==============================
Here is some of the latest on the good bad and the ugly of the Copenhagen conference.
naturalresources
Wison, Wilson, "Look, there are 2 billion Christians so IT must be the True Religion."
"This site has had X numbers of hits so it must be true."
"Over 100 billion served! McDonald's must have healthy food!"
"Rock music is the most listened to so it is the best music there ever was."
You see, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but.....Thank you Wlson, for bringing me closer to the the truth. I now feel that I'm getting much closer to understanding Bill Clinton's comment : "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."
With this kind of logic, maybe one could conclude that liberlism really is not a mental disorder after all? Please...enlighten us some more, Wilson.
JackPoynter
SorrySOB,
On television, you mean. Everywhere else in the world, the row continues.
Today, Dec 1, suddenly a fair proportion of the new hits on Google News are due to AGW supporters fighting back. They have evidently decided that ignoring the situation won't make it go away, possibly due to the political results in Australia.
Obama doesn't think ClimateGate is serious.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/69797-gibbs-despite-research-dispute-climate-change-is-happening
rtr
Rob
You have no memory of Gypo Loggers going out, looking at their Sale, and driving back to town with a "This is pure stupidity! In the Rocky Mountains, there won't be trees to harvest here until my grandkids are middle aged!" And when the Chief Forester/Wall Street Exec said "I have 3 more who will jump on the sale"
==============================
You seem to take an awful lot for granted, I worked at the Aluminum plant for four years before I went to the Silver Valley and after it shut down I came back to Montana for awhile after that too.
As for knowing what happened in the Flathead you are a bit confused and if you live there now your mind and your eye sight must be going bad.
There are lots of places where the trees are big enough to harvest but every time the forest service puts up a timber sale the swan Coalition files a frivolas law suit.
Multiple use you say, Well that is not what the Swan Coalition wants.
People like "Tester, one of your democrats" are in with losers like the Swan Coalition and telling lies when it comes to multiple use also and making it to where the land is locked up for ever and can never be logged.
As for what DavidS said about the trees having beetles near Helena there was NO reason other than liberal law suits that stopped it and now HUGE amounts of trees are dead because of it and they are spreading everywhere. "I have 20 acers with trees that could be destroyed because of those liberal scum bags and their beetles so don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about"
The one thing you said that is a fact is that the beetles are NOT there because of Global Warming.
As for all your Wall Street comments they didn't make much sense at all, But you sure do seem to have a lot of heart burn with the very same people you claim to have your money invested with.
SorrySOB
Checked again this morning. Nope, nothing new on the whole global warming e-mail scandal. Thanks to Frank and thanks the Fox, the conservatives can keep grasping at hope that more will come, but nope, just Frank and Fox. By the way, guess what, thanks to liberal hackers that got into Sarah Palin's underwear drawer, the WMD has finally been found! Tucked away innocently in the corner, humming with AA batteries.
JackPoynter
Returning to the subject at hand:
Malcolm Turnbull, the Australian Liberal Party Leader, has been replaced by Tony Abbot, which is being called the "first political scalp taken as a result of ClimateGate."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100018413/climategate-claims-its-first-big-political-scalp/
This stuff is being taken seriously everywhere except here on the television networks.
Rob123
Why BadRockBilly, (-:, your question to Wilson makes me happy. Good Mind......If one is to take a Kierkegaardian leap while holding fast to Social Justice in a non-Pauline world, I say "Bravo!" to you. From my agnostic distance, but with a bent towards pragmatic existence in the here and now. To answer your question, would one count ALL Jungians, or just those that take Communion?
Rob123
" It keeps me laughing to watch you all(i.e. Yeah well, I DO LIVE AT THE BEGINING of the Swan Valley adjoining the Flathead Valley and know what kind of scum bags and the destruction the Swan Coalition has caused in the entire northwest region of Montana and know just how HATED they are.) puff up your chests and then get up ended and visualize you laying on your backs going WHAT THE H*LL HAPPENED.......LOL....{-:"
Yawn.....what a mind ye have rtr., what a mind.
Where were you during the 70's and 80's in the midst of the Wall Street financed 'Cut and Run' that totally destroyed the 'Selective Cut' of the 30's to mid 60's, that Jack pointed out in an earlier post? Outside of Columbia Falls and Seeley Lake, how many mills still operate? Even reasonable people see the damage. The extremists don't understand that pine beetles come and go, and if you put out forest fires you need to log or the whole forest goes up in smoke, sooner or later. But hey, that's called Multiple Use, and those who 'View" the forest but don't 'Work' the forest have a very cynical view of this pragmatic approach due to past transgressions. And where were you? Organizing strikes in the Silver Valley through sheer force of personality and now your home and doing the same thing because your convinced of your own righteousness yet don't have a clue as to the Wall Street influenced Cut and Run that us folks in the trenches went through and now suffer from. You have no memory of Gypo Loggers going out, looking at their Sale, and driving back to town with a "This is pure stupidity! In the Rocky Mountains, there won't be trees to harvest here until my grandkids are middle aged!" And when the Chief Forester/Wall Street Exec said "I have 3 more who will jump on the sale" , well....? You can throw around your non-intellectual persona and jump with glee over a couple posters who praise your antics, but Reality is a lot bigger than an old Miner from Wallace who misses the Red Light district. I miss the Mills, but it is clear why they are gone and not coming back in my life time. It has absolutely nothing to do with Global Warming or NOT Global Warming.
BadRockBilly
Ther are more things in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio.
BadRockBilly
How many Swedenborgians are there Wilson?
rtr
DavidS
I admit having been gone from Montana for a long time, but my ties and roots here date back more than 60 years. We'll see if we can find a good topographic map to help you out with your geography studies. As for politics, I'm afraid you're beyond help in that field.
=======================
Yeah well, I DO LIVE AT THE BEGINING of the Swan Valley adjoining the Flathead Valley and know what kind of scum bags and the destruction the Swan Coalition has caused in the entire northwest region of Montana and know just how HATED they are.
Bronco
Wilson, for the record I was banned for using the term 'bukaki facials" in an imaginary advertisement for bikers when I was teasing nat-res about his very loud pipes and his insensitivity towards others. Two members of the conservative team complained and I was unable to post for several days. I apologized to the editor in a private email and, when allowed to post again, I apologized to the room.
It was humorous but some people got offended back when being offensive was a crime.
We discussed the rules earlier in this week's thread and someone cleaned up his posts but I see he's getting nasty and mean again. Leopard and his spots sort of thing.
I appreciate the advice and am once again reminded of Cicero's Six Mistakes of Man, specifically: Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do.
It is pleasant to meet another person who is educated about religion. The churchers have so little knowledge having learned, no, having been told what to believe by the guy at the pulpit on Sunday and by subjective and partial teachers. I have found the Catholic Encyclopedia to be a very good source of information about the history of Christianity. Have you read any of it?
DavidS
Poor, rtr. I didn't realize that he is geographically challenged as well as literarily. For the record, I grew up on Montana and would have gone to college here too, but I got a better offer from an Ivy League college in New England. I first visited the Swan Valley when I was about ten years old and have loved the area ever since. The valley is indeed a valley, not a mountain range. The Swan Range of the Rockies borders it on the east and the Mission Range on the west. When I said I live at the top of the valley, I meant where the north end of the valley joins the Flathead valley. I admit having been gone from Montana for a long time, but my ties and roots here date back more than 60 years. We'll see if we can find a good topographic map to help you out with your geography studies. As for politics, I'm afraid you're beyond help in that field.
rtr
You know, Even though the content of this blog earlier today was much more intelligent I have to say I am glad the "liberal gang that threatened to leave, how many times now" came back this evening and stayed long enough to go another round, It keeps me laughing to watch you all puff up your chests and then get up ended and visualize you laying on your backs going WHAT THE H*LL HAPPENED.......LOL....{-:
curious
bendznd,
Feeling "Holier Than Thou"
People typically believe they are more likely to engage in selfless, kind, and generous behaviors than their peers, a result that is both logically and statistically suspect. However, this oft-documented tendency presents an important ambiguity. Do people feel "holier than thou" because they harbor overly cynical views of their peers (but accurate impressions of themselves) or overly charitable views of themselves (and accurate impressions of their peers)? Four studies suggested it was the latter.
http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/nicholas.epley/EpleyandDunning2001.pdf
You never told me if you got anything out of the learnin I offered up to you last week on healthcare.
rtr
SorrySOB
Should be an interesting sight having 16 year old pimple faced hackers right next to the chew slobbering tea baggers.
======================
Nice insult but at least you are admitting it is true that Al Gore is a fraud and understanding that the MAJORITY of scientists dispute any kind of Global Warming and the MAJORITY of Americans are tierd of being frauded by the likes of Al Gore and Obama with Cap and Trade Taxes..
By the way you can donate to Al Gores investment company and possibly get a write off for it as charity like Obama does with ACORN.
Editor
SorrySOB wrote: "I never got an answer to my question about this statement, " thanks to an anonymous hacker." Since when it is accepted practice to thank hackers? Frank, did you also thank the hackers that hacked Sarah Palin's email last year. Right."
Dear SorrySOB: So sorry I have not been able to keep up with all your Freedom of Information requests, but here is my latest installment in attempting to satisfy your every whim:
The phrase "thanks to" means "as a result of" or "with credit given to"... it does not actually have to reflect gratitude, as in this phrase: "Marie Antoinette lost her head thanks to the guillotine." Naturally, we assume Marie was glad to go qickly if she had to go at all, but still it is hard to imagine that she was really grateful for the sharpness of the blade.
Here's another one: "President Obama was elected thanks to the uneducated state of the voting public." I'm sure he is not really thankful that the American public is uneducated.... oh wait... actually you have me on this one... I guess he is.
SorrySOB
"You know that is amazing since the liberal media likes the HYPE of the party crashers.
"OH yeah it is the word HYPE and there is NO money in it for them to denouce their biggest funders like Al Gore and the liberal gang"
Looks like it's working, and yes I did a Google search today like I did 10 days ago and not much has changed. Any bonehead can get a $3.95 a month web host and post exaggerated news. Wonder just how many of the articles are just that. By the way, still no answer on why it's ok to "thank" hackers now. Quoting Frank, "thanks to hackers." It appears that the conservatives have now welcomed hackers in their ranks. Should be an interesting sight having 16 year old pimple faced hackers right next to the chew slobbering tea baggers.
rtr
DavidS
I live at the top of that valley and am delighted to support these efforts in every way possible.
=======================
You are obviously an out of state liar like the rest of your liberal posting friends, The Swan Valley is a mountain range for your information and I just don't see you living in 20 feet of snow for four months out of the year at 6000 feet of elevation "at the top of the valley as you put it" and "Ten feet of snow half way down". "You might want to talk to Benznd and regroup when it comes to how you are going to post your socialist agendas next time" "You know, Mountain snow depths, Miners and ANTI-Government beliefs" .
You know RE-GROUP but at least come back with something a young child could be fooled into believing....Keep it more to your skill set, Keep it VERY simple.
Wilson
Bronco, Bronco, Bronco. You cannot confront people with the facts about their beliefs. It makes them uncomfortable, so they just forget about it and later take up where they left off. We are dealing with people who assign credibility to information by the numbers of people who have been exposed to it.
"Look, there are 2 billion Christians so IT must be the True Religion."
"This site has had X numbers of hits so it must be true."
"Over 100 billion served! McDonald's must have healthy food!"
"Rock music is the most listened to so it is the best music there ever was."
You see, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.
Anais Nin: When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow.
John Kennedy: The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.
Thomas Jefferson (One of those pesky Founding Fathers): The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
This will make people uncomfortable and will soon be forgotten.
rtr
The Swan Coalitition has done more to destroy any acess to places that were open to the pulic for recreation than any other organization in the Flathead Valley and their illegal activity is very close to the UNA-Bomber when it comes to earth first and their terrorist activities.
This organization has destroyed more forest land, jobs and you name it than any other liberal scum bag organization ever has in Montana.
http://www.swanview.org/quiet/index.html
Use a lawn rake rather than a leaf blower.
Use a push mower rather than a power lawn mower.
Shoot a camera rather than a gun.
Walk or bike rather than drive a motor vehicle.
Ski or snowshoe rather than ride a snowmobile.
Sail rather than use a power boat
Paddle rather than use a jet-ski.
benznd
Religious people tend to use their own beliefs as a guide in thinking about what God believes, but are less constrained when reasoning about other people's beliefs, according to new study published in the Nov. 30 early edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Nicholas Epley, professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business, led the research, which included a series of survey and neuroimaging studies to examine the extent to which people's own beliefs guide their predictions about God's beliefs. The findings of Epley and his co-authors at Australia's Monash University and UChicago extend existing work in psychology showing that people are often egocentric when they infer other people's beliefs.
The researchers noted that people often set their moral compasses according to what they presume to be God's standards. "The central feature of a compass, however, is that it points north no matter what direction a person is facing," they conclude. "This research suggests that, unlike an actual compass, inferences about God's beliefs may instead point people further in whatever direction they are already facing."
But the research in no way denies the possibility that God's presumed beliefs also may provide guidance in situations where people are uncertain of their own beliefs, the co-authors noted.
More information: Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other people's beliefs."
Info from the LEFT! (-:
DavidS
Poor rtr thinks the bugs destroying our evergreen forests are pine "beatles." Maybe he's too young to remember the British rock band called The Beatles. The bugs killing the trees are pine beetles. He also considers the Swan Coalition an example of "loonacy." The correct word is lunacy, but it certainly doesn't apply to this organization which works very hard to preserve the precious resource the Swan Valley represents. I live at the top of that valley and am delighted to support these efforts in every way possible. Perhaps we should all chip in and purchase a dictionary for rtr's Christmas present. His postings won't be as much fun, but they'll make more sense.
JackPoynter
Here's my take on that, Fun Gal:
The article takes the BBC to task for making an opinion piece look like a news story. I'm not going to address the merits of that.
But the piece does not address any of the current issues, except to dismiss them as 'minority views.' And those views certainly are in the minority right now, that's the whole point of this dustup.
So the article attacks the form of the piece instead of addressing it as any sort of news. That's straight out of Futerra's playbook, sidestep and deny.
Got another one you want to discuss?
curious
In 1996 the Walt Disney Company purchased Capital Cities/ABC for $18.5 billion. At that point, ABC's politics shifted noticeably to the left.
Mark Halperin, the son of high-level Bill Clinton advisor Morton Halperin, has been the Political Director of ABC News since 1997 and is responsible for the planning and editorial content of all political news on the network.
Maybe when your policies shift too far left, it is difficult to provide balanced reporting.
rtr
Everyone here today has had sources for their information funny how are new poster doesn't have any.
fun gal
http://www.editorsweblog.org/newsrooms_and_journalism/2009/10/the_bbc_and_global_warming.php
fun gal
Have you people even looked at the world media reports?
They are questioning some of the authors data describing it as "more political spin than news reporting." They believe that much of the "data" is cherry picked.
JackPoynter
I went to ABC New home and searched on "climate emails" and got 19,000+ hits. The first one was George Stephanopolous' Blog, and he basically was only talking about the criminal nature of the hack, no info on the content of the emails.
I couldn't see any others, they seemed to be the regular stuff ABC does on the climate.
So I searched on "CRU" and got 31 articles on French wine.
ABC just does not seem to be reporting this issue.
rtr
SorrySOB
This story "broke" what, a week or two ago?
====================
You know that is amazing since the liberal media likes the HYPE of the party crashers.
"OH yeah it is the word HYPE and there is NO money in it for them to denouce their biggest funders like Al Gore and the liberal gang" "Kind of like Obama that is unwilling to cut off funding to ACORN"
fun gal
You've raised a very good issue Jack. Sounds like a "recycling" type of thing.
JackPoynter
SorrySob@7:30,
The reason you haven't seen anything is because you are getting your information from the mainstream news, except for the DIL, which, as you note, is covering it.
To get a better idea, go to Google, hit the news url at the top of the page, then when google comes back, type in "climate emails". The last time I checked there were almost 4,000 hits there, the great majority of which are shock, anger, and analysis of the CRU (Climate Research Unit) of the University of East Anglia, leaked emails.
If you use regular web Google, you get 14,300,000 hits. That's up from about 3,000,000 this morning. (I just went and looked, that result surprised me.)
Those hits are from all around the world, and all around the USA. The ONLY media outlets not publishing those reports are ABC, CBS, and NBC, and I have not the foggiest, faintest, notion why not.
Go have a look. It's where I've been getting the links I've been posting. It isn't hard. But you have to open minded enough to look.
JP
rtr
The reality of the pine beatles is simple, Let the forest service have a timber sale if they get started and them cut the trees while they are worth money which stops the spread of the beatles.
Global Warming being used by the tree huggers is nothing but another way close the forests down which ends up causing catastrophic fires that destroy the forests even if the beatles don't do it do to excess under brush.
The Swan Coalition is a prime example of complete destruction and enviromental loonacy in the Swan Valley do to the fact that ONE HOT summer "NOT GLOBAL WARMING" and it could explode into fire and the enviromental loons have seen to it that roads have been closed so the forests will BURN and the fires can not be put out due to NO access.
curious
SorrySOB, must mean that since you didn't see it on TV it not real. If you follow some of the links that Jack posted today, you may find that the non-conservatism side of the world was directing your thoughts. You may not find that, but I would give it a shot. Good use of Multi-millionaire profit driven motives. If you really want to know.
SorrySOB
Also, I never got an answer to my question about this statement, " thanks to an anonymous hacker." Since when it is accepted practice to thank hackers? Frank, did you also thank the hackers that hacked Sarah Palin's email last year. Right.
SorrySOB
Let's see now. This story "broke" what, a week or two ago? Yep, and so far the only place I've seen any much mention of it is here. Darn liberal media is sure good at keeping these important news stories under cover aren't they? Or could it be that the conservative media has once again blown things out of proportion as that is all they have to work with.
JackPoynter
I'm not a forester, but I have a small amount of perspective that I can share on deforestation and reforestation.
My family moved to middle Georgia from North Carolina in 1823, and we have been farming there ever since, some of them, I went the technical route.
My cousin Oliver runs the family farm in Hawkinsville, Georgia, and for decades he complained to me about how hard and expensive it was to run a farm; every little jot in the weather was a potential crisis, every little jag in commodity prices might spell boom or bust, and costs of purchasing and maintaining the mechanical equipment, which for the most part are only used once a year, are amazing. And it always seemed that no matter what you had, it needed to be fixed at the exact time you needed it worst.
When Georgia Kraft offered him a deal to put his land in pulp forest, he sprang at it with both hands because of the stability involved. His land is divided into seven sections, six growing and one harvesting. When a section is harvested, it is immediately reforested with healthy seedlings, so there is a kind of stairstep effect in his land.
For the community, the net result is that six-sevenths of his land is always available for hunting and fishing, and the hunters among you know that developing forest with the concomitant cover is the best sort of hunting ground for small game.
So everybody wins, Georgia Kraft gets its pulp wood, Oliver gets his income, the community gets to hunt and fish. Oliver also runs a Bed and Breakfast for hunters and fishers, so he (and they) win in that way also. There is no local industry to pollute the land, the skies are clear, as are the streams.
So: with regard to losing large amounts of forest, it seems to me that it just clears the way for more forest to come in.
That's all I know about it. If you think I need education on the subject fire away. I'll pass the information on to Oliver.
JP
fun gal
I don't agree that GW is "man caused" (solely) but our way of life has "sped it up"
SorrySOB
"sunlight of freedom".... I've heard it all now.
rtr
Hey WillK, I like what you posted and there is a ton of information out there on the subject of Global warming "Good bad or indiffernt it always ends up being for monitary purposes".
Just a heads up since I have only seen you post here a couple times you might want to check out the Avatar of the person you were just talking to and do a Google search of "fun gal cdapress" to get a real feel for what you are dealing with.
I can't give you the whole story here, Sorry.
WillK
Fun gal says that the earth has warmed six degrees. I think that it is six tenths of a degree in the past 100 years. Six would be a disaster.
As far as pine beetle, it appears that Montana, Wyoming and Colorado are having quite an infestation. It seems to be a cycle of the forest and not "global warming". Water- with half of the lodgepole dying in a drainage the stream levels are actually rising due to the lesser amount of water used by the forest. It saddens me that these forests will likely burn and take many years to rejuvinate themselves. Colorado is especially vulnerable due to lodgepole being the dominate species. I understood that lodgepole was a "cover crop" that was expected to burn about every 80 years so that other sprcies can regenerate on the same ground. We need a professional forrester to comment on this question. I just am VERY skeptical that global warming is man caused and am also VERY skeptical that the myriad of calamities that are politically attributed to global warming are in the least bit true. Where is the data? What has been theorized so far is strictly from computer models. I took a college course regarding this fro Niel DeGrass Tyson (Nova Guy), so I feel that I have an amaturers view of this situation as well as a deep distrust for the so called science that seems to be customized to support global warming. All without the nornal "peer review" and publication that is ALWAYS presented in such discussions.
lousia
Thanks, for a great sunday nov. 29, 2 cents. Just think how many people were fooled by Gore etc. But many will still believe the stories Good column good research.
Editor
Bighorn: Your suggestion that a quip of mine in an earlier column should qualify as "abuse" summarizes perfectly why I think most people who are complaining about abuse actually just don't like what their opponents are saying.
You quoted me in regard to some quotes I provided from Obama administration members that were Marxist in nature. I wrote, "If those quotes don’t scare you, then you have your head so far up your Marxist philosophy that the sunlight of freedom doesn’t shine any more."
This apparently bothered your sensibility. You wrote to me in your comment below: "Doesn't that qualify for some level of "troublemaking"? Doesn't that get the Abuse button? What information did that offer?"
Why would you be offended? Because you are a Marxist? Or because you don't like the sunlight of freedom? Think about it? What could possibly be found offensive in my sentence?
The information offered in it was just what it expressed: That one's reaction to hearing Marxist quotes by members of a U.S. administration is a Rorschach test on how much you yourself have bought into the socialist propaganda that is everywhere around us. If it doesn't bother you to hear Marxist propaganda come from the mouth of an American official, then you presumably cannot be counted on to protect us from Marxism.
By the way, you have an assumption that lack of "moderation" is why the commenters on this column don't stay on topic. I beg to differ. The commenters on this column have always commented on whatever they pleased. That was true well before rtr sprung onto the scene. And it is not because the commenters are bad people, but just because they don't want to be kept in a box. More power to them.
fun gal
As the mountain pine beetle moves through an area, it leaves a trail of dead, rust-colored trees oozing sap with which the tree attempted to repel the invader. Western Montana is undergoing such an outbreak, said Diana Six, a University of Montana professor of forest entomology and pathology.
Six said the pine beetle outbreak is a natural disturbance that serves an important part in keeping stands of lodge pole pine healthy. Thinning out weak trees and making room for young trees is necessary. Yet, the native insect is more active than normal due to a change in climate, Six said.
“With warmer temperatures, the beetle population can build more rapidly,” Six said.
Longer growing seasons are a result of the climate’s 6-degree global increase, Six said. This makes trees far more susceptible to beetle invasion because they grow for longer time periods in a warmer climate with less water.
There is some hope that the pine beetle was caught unprepared in the early cold snap this fall, but the actual impact is unknown. Six said, for the winter cold to kill the beetle, a number of consecutive days need to have temperatures lower than 40 below zero.
“That type of cold just doesn’t happen anymore,” Six said.
JackPoynter
Lord Nigel Lawson of Britain is forming an organization to promote debate on the Global Warming Issue.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/11/30/lack-of-climate-debate-hobbles-policy.aspx
"It is against all this background that I am announcing the launch of a new high-powered all-party (and non-party) think-tank, the Global Warming Policy Foundation (www.thegwpf.org), which I hope may mark a turning-point in the political and public debate on the important issue of global warming policy. At the very least, open and reasoned debate on this issue cannot be anything but healthy. The absence of debate between political parties at the present time makes our contribution all the more necessary."
Mr. Lawson, as we say in this country, is severely hacked off about the CRU. And he has the political clout to make this stick. I hope.
It's another crack in the dam, at least.
JP
rtr
You know Frank, Bighorn may have a valid point about you writting about some enviromental concerns, Like why the loggers are keep out of the woods so the tree huggers can raise beatles that kill the trees that are spreading and make them worthless and how they have destroyed the economy when it comes to the logging industry in general "Present economy excluded that Obama is in charge of".
Editor
Bighorn wrote: "Frank, rtr says the Chinese are killing all their female children. Is that true?"
No, not all of them, just enough to make the social situation there very dangerous.
Here's what I found:
From April: "PARIS (AFP) — Selective abortion in favor of males has left China with 32 million more boys than girls, creating an imbalance that will endure for decades, an investigation released on Friday warned."
Another source, unattributed: "SHANGHAI, China -- The lopsided male-female ratio in China caused by sex-selection abortions is worsening, pushed up to 120 men for every 100 women, a government newspaper says."
Apparently, abortion has killed about 400 million Chinese in all, with many more girls than boys.
rtr
Bighorn
The forests in the million-acre mountains surrounding Helena are brown, red, and dying, because the winters aren't cold enough to kill the tree-destroying insects. More acreage of forest gone than in anyone's worst fire nightmare.
========================
That is PURE and SIMPLE bunk, It is because the JOB killing enviromentalists won't let anyone log any more or it is "LIBERAL LAW SUIT TIME".
How was it you told Frank, Get your head out of what, You might want to do the same.
JackPoynter
Curious @5:22,
Yes, it does doesn't it...George Orwell wrote them a plan, and they're pursuing it.
But I don't think we're going to stand for it. The issue is still in doubt, but we have a chance. All it's going to take is for people to spread the word. The more of us who realize what's going on, the better off we'll be.
rtr
You know, Both Jack and curious have EXPOSED some very serious stuff here toady that I will be distributing everywhere I go to inform people of the fraud the liberals are pulling on us JUST to make money in the most disgusting way I can imagine "Forcing their lies on our kids to enslave them mentally for monitary purposes only".
rtr
You know Bighorn the evidence just is NOT there to support your claims when it comes to your environmental fear mongering..."Never has been but now we are getting smarter when it comes to dealing with your kind"...."Sorry but NO ONE is buying into your environmental tree hugging BS any more" People like you are job killers nothing less and nothing more.
rtr
You know it has not only been an educational day today on the blog but without all the NON-sense of the FAR left with their insulting and platform building posts being thrown around it has been has also been GREAT fun too.
Thanks Frank and to the DIL for having this blog site for the Flathead Valley as an additive to your news paper.
curious
Supply, as we know, creates its own demand. So for every additional billion in government-funded grants (or the tens of millions supplied by foundations like the Pew Charitable Trusts), universities, research institutes, advocacy groups and their various spin-offs and dependents have emerged from the woodwork to receive them.
Today these groups form a kind of ecosystem of their own. They include not just old standbys like the Sierra Club or Greenpeace, but also Ozone Action, Clean Air Cool Planet, Americans for Equitable Climate Change Solutions, the Alternative Energy Resources Association, the California Climate Action Registry and so on and on. All of them have been on the receiving end of climate change-related funding, so all of them must believe in the reality (and catastrophic imminence) of global warming just as a priest must believe in the existence of God.
to view the entire text, http://online.wsj.com/article/global_view.html
Bighorn0216
Frank:
Bighorn216: If you are really after moderation on the website, here's how that works...
__________________________________________________________
Frank, you keep equating moderation with repression. You've labeled the "Report Abuse" button--of which I assume you approved--with stifling constitutionally protected expression. So the button is considered a mute button.
But that's okay. It's your paper, and your website, and you make the rules here. I don't have a problem with that. It's a lot of work. DIL pays for the bandwidth, and you can call the shots. That's the market. There are plenty of blogs to go around. You can say whatever you want to here. Constitutional right.
Still: a lot of information could be exchanged here, but isn't, because it's all couched in insult and passive-aggressive and polarized political attacks. I don't care a whit about cut-and-paste or URLs flooding the threads. Geez, I can surf the net, too. I'm asking people to think for themselves, and not just tell me what's been on TV or the radio for the past week.
Look, Frank, you do a he*l of a job, building a weekly column to support your personal views. I know it's heart-felt and a he*l of a lot of work. I've been writing against deadline my whole professional life. I'm just frustrated that nothing ever comes of it here, because the threads immediately devolve into us-them nonsense and name-calling. You claim the high road, because once a contributor was abused with a nasty label in fatigued response to relentless provocation. Yet you wrote: "If those quotes don’t scare you, then you have your head so far up your Marxist philosophy that the sunlight of freedom doesn’t shine any more." Doesn't that qualify for some level of "troublemaking"? Doesn't that get the Abuse button? What information did that offer? You're above that, Frank. C'mon, I'll champion your effort to make your case, but some thinking people are reading and want to jump in. Let them. They're concerned. Some are afraid, and wanting some guidance without being told to light torches and take up pitchforks everytime a strange idea approaches.
After I suggested that we quit feeding the bear, I browsed back and discovered a dumpster full of offerings from folks who just will not quit. Earlier, I was out of time. Now, I just give up on the lot.
A final on-topic, therefore pointless, question. What do emails, whatever the content, have to do with the physical, photographically documented fact of the breakup of the Arctic cap? We used to need a nuclear sub to sail underneath the north pole. In a few years, a Hobie Cat (Waterworld-equipped, of course) will be able to do it. The forests in the million-acre mountains surrounding Helena are brown, red, and dying, because the winters aren't cold enough to kill the tree-destroying insects. More acreage of forest gone than in anyone's worst fire nightmare. Emails, whatever their content, aren't doing that. Emails, whatever their content, didn't once render the Cuyahoga river inflammable, but environmental reason and a change in thinking made it otherwise.
For godssake, dive into things that matter. Most of us posting will be dead before our decisions can kill us, but they will begin to--or will-- kill our kids. Why not start figuring it out now?
Last call: Frank, rtr says the Chinese are killing all their female children. Is that true?
curious
Jack, the really sad part is that it is not just our children or grandchildren, it is our next door neighbor, the person you passed in the isle of the store. It is the manipulation for financial gain, at everybodies expense. This has been going on for sometime, and the reality of it working is evident in the ferver of global warming, the thoughts that people may have about Bush, the scare of BPA. What information do you think you know? It kind of sounds like one of those futuristic movies with thought police showing you how to think, "Thank you Mr. XXXX, we really appreciate it when you participate in the discussion"
Bronco
Hello, boys and girls.
May the Lord Jesus keep you from heresy, blasphemy, and watch over you, your family and this Christian nation we have prospered in. We should follow God's laws as put down in the Holy Bible.
Deut 13: Every command that I enjoin you, you should be careful to observe, neither adding or subtracting from it. (That is pretty straightforward. EVERY command.)
Deut 13:7-10 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
Wilson must die! The Lord thy God so commands. Who here shall speak against the Lord?
rtr
Hey Jack, I completely agree with you "When it comes to real world practices" "It does appear however people are getting smarter especially after the last presidential election", I just couldn't help the humor part since anyone that has blogged for any length of time has seen their tactics first hand........I have to say I am even guilty of learning some of their tactics and using them back on them in the blogs. "It really confuses them".... Laughing
JackPoynter
rtr,
I didn't post but a few lines from the playbook. Go look at it. Compare that to what you see on television.
I don't think it's funny, though I can see where your comparison would seem funny to you.
Frankly, it makes me boiling angry. I do not like to be manipulated, regardless of how much money it's going to cost me. And when you throw the money on top of it, I pass angry and become coldly furious. These are my grandchildren's lives they're playing with.
rtr
Hey Benznd, Think before you go trying to SELL your governmental socialist beliefs and saying they are needed or wanted because this time you really went over the top and then some.
Appalachian Mountains, Silver Valley Idaho you name it when it comes to mining country they are probably thee most ANTI-GOVERNMENT places in the USA and DISPISE government regulations of ANY KIND.
Think first post later Benznd.
rtr
Benznd
If one ever doubts the need for rigid regulation, ask the families of these deceased miners. They were skeptics of an impending diseaster.
======================
I was a miner and I can tell you for sure you are full of P**P, We new the risks we were taking every day and JUST LIKE THEM we got paid D*MN good for taking those risks.
They have unions and the government has no place in it and YOU are speculating ONLY as to what anyone there would want. "Nice try with more of your socialism I see"
rtr
Jack
Minimize the opposition by ignoring them. Detract from anything they publish by demeaning it. Control the sources of communication with the public. Always make positive statements about your position, negative about the opposition. Praise people who agree with you. Sneer at people who don't.
==============
I had to laugh when I read this. "It sounded just like my fan club that was chewing on me like "CATNIP" yesterday.....That's funny.....laughing
benznd
12 coal miners, following a huge explosion, are trapped in the 300 ft. vertical, 12,500 ft. horizontal Sago Mine located in the Appalachian Mountains of West Virginia. It is 6:45AM January 2, 2006. A recent piece of the roof, about 6 ft. thick and 100 feet
long had broken loose from an abandoned section of the coal mine. The
abandoned section was the size of 4 Carnegne Halls and had filled with methane gas at a rate of 14,500 cubic feet per day to 203,000 cublic feet, exceeding the 5% concentration level. The blast breaks through a seal wall, and sends a fire ball up the main artery. The leak in the sealed wall was reported a week earlier by the fire boss, but nothing was done.
The federal Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) does not require mine owners to "vent" such buildup. It is not required, It is not done. The fire boss, whose job it is to monitor gas buildup, is the first to die.
The safety gear worn by the miners is old and often useless. The oxygen masks have a large turkey bag which catches the exhaled carbon dioxide and "cracks" it back into oxygen. They are designed to work for an hour. 4 of the 12 masks do not function requiring sharing of functioning masks.
Approximately 5 hours passes following the blast. The local Barbour County Mine Rescue team arrives. Throughout the morning the trapped miners follow procedure, taking turns pounding on a bolt holding up a section of the roof where they are trapped. Each miner hits the bolt 10 times, then waits a predetermined length of time, for a return noise. They are running low on oxygen, the physical effort required to swing the 10 pound sledge is exhausting. Though some oxygen remains in their plastic sealed off section, smoke and gas seep in.
The Rescue Team is ready to roll. They cannot go in until the mine owner, International Coal Group, submits a plan to the federal MSHA inspectors. The Bush Administration has been making major changes to MSHA; this is the first real test of a new philosophy of letting the mine company, rather than MSHA, run the rescue operation. With the Company calling the shots and MSHA having to sign off on each step, it plays out slowly, like an "underground Katrina."
The trapped Miners know that it is a matter of time before the dynamite blasts from above will be heard and that the seismic equipment will hear their pounding. A rescue capsule that was used successfully in PA is surely on its way. The rescue team is inexperienced. They calculate that the siesmic equipment will take too long to calibrate. No seismic equipment, no need for the rescue capsule. When the mine owners finally submit a plan, it is a plan to wait and watch the gas readings.
The mine has no communication line, usually burried beneath the tracks, to locate the miners. There are no underground rescue chambers. The MSHA has no mass spectrometers, used in other countries, that determine if the gasses venting are from the explosion or a burning gas fire. Knowing that difference would give the Team information relative to entering and rescuing. All the miners, except one, die. They are not reached until 11:30 PM.
So why this story? An example of relaxed government regulations. Inadequate safety equipment resulting from shoddy management and relaxed government regulations. Mine safety rules compromised by profit margins. The market place will always self-regulate/monitor/correct. If one ever doubts the need for rigid regulation, ask the families of these deceased miners. They were skeptics of an impending diseaster.
rtr
The interesting thing about the population growth is that even the United Nations which I disagree with most of the time, never trust them, you know the deal says that by the year 2050 population growth will have started to level off “they don’t say how why or etc and their motives are always suspect” but what little reasoning they put behind it however it does make some sense and with that said it could be a very BAD thing for our future generations..
The fast and furious growth in population means a huge demand for all products which relates to a huge need for supply, “You know that darn capitalist supply and demand thing” Which equates to an excellent standard of living like we have today, Current economy excluded of course.
If the population growth does level out the standard of living is sure to decline for future generations.
“From 1900 to 2000, world population grew from 1.6 billion persons to 6.1 billion. However, while world population increased close to 4 times, world real gross domestic product increased 20 to 40 times.”
curious
Jack, there are tons of pockets of misinformation out there. When I was reading some to the tactits used by Fenton and look at his client list, I am amazed.
JackPoynter
In an earlier thread this year, I posited that AGW behaved more like a religion than a science, and attempted to relate it to millennial fervor. A lot of other people agree with that thought, you can find it all over the news using Google.
I haven't abandoned that idea, but I'm beginning to get a sense of how AGW has achieved that status. The short version is that advertising agencies like Fenton Communications in the USA and Futerra in England have for a long time been advising the AGW cult on how to behave in order to sell their position.
Their mantra is, "data is ok, but emotion sells." In the first post in this thread there is a link to the Futerra playbook, which lays out their selling strategy. Minimize the opposition by ignoring them. Detract from anything they publish by demeaning it. Control the sources of communication with the public. Always make positive statements about your position, negative about the opposition. Praise people who agree with you. Sneer at people who don't.
Go have a look, I'm not making this up. It's in the link.
That is, evidently, how you reach cult status.
stunned
rtr: Glad you found that information. I've heard it before but it was in regards to people standing shoulder to shoulder and taking up only enough space to fit into a city in Florida. I can't remember which city, though. It's fascinating information. I agree, over population is a fraud as well as Global Warming. However, if people hear these extremist ideas long enough, they start to believe them. Common sense has gone right out the window.
JackPoynter
Curious,
If you go back to the first post I made in this thread, which is also the first post in the thread, you'll see the CRU also has an advertising agency. The links to the stories are in that post also.
JP
curious
A look at this link will show how Fenton has become so wealthy for the liberal cause,
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6958
curious
http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/30/climategate-%E2%80%93-by-andrew-walden/
This link that Jack previously shared, is interesting in that it points to a EMS and Fenton Communications.
EMS is the communications arm of leftist public relations firm Fenton Communications. Based in Washington, in the same office suite as Fenton, EMS claims to be “providing journalists with the most current information on environmental issues..” A more accurate assessment might be that it spoon-feeds the news media sensationalized stories, based on questionable science, and featuring activist “experts,” all designed to promote and enrich David Fenton’s paying clients, and build credibility for the nonprofit ones. It’s a clever racket, and EMS & Fenton have been running it since 1994….
Fenton Communications specializes in public relations for not-for-profit organizations.[1] Its clients work on social issues such as the environment, peace, health, women, GLBT and international issues.
When commenting on David Fenton and the work he and his firm does, the Washington Post noted that "[Fenton is] not the poster child of liberal causes; he’s the designer, producer and distributor of the posters."[2]
Environmental Media Services (EMS) is a Washington, D.C. based nonprofit organization that is "dedicated to expanding media coverage of critical environmental and public health issues"[1]. EMS was founded in 1994 by Arlie Schardt, a former journalist, former communications director for Al Gore's 2000 Presidential campaign, and former head of the Environmental Defense Fund during the 1970s
http://www.activistcash.com/biography.cfm/bid/2807 ----- This is a link to Fentons Biography, interesting is his approach to business. I wonder how much influence his marketing campaigns have had on the health care bill in persuading the sheep to follow. He is also the owner of Rolling Stones Magazine. .
curious
Rob, you could be a politician, because I ask a question, and you give me a feel good response without the answer. You are good.
Rob123
I'm glad not all my thoughts are bad. Your blessing, like Pete's, is what I live for. Thanks for condescending to my level. I'll try to be good. And keep those night classes going. Pete's a Master.
rtr
You know I just found out this over population thing is just as much a bunch of WHOOY as what Global Warming is.
No way everyone could fit in Texas . . .??????
According to the U.N. Population Database, the world's population in 2010 will be 6,908,688,000. The landmass of Texas is 268,820 sq mi (7,494,271,488,000 sq ft).
So, divide 7,494,271,488,000 sq ft by 6,908,688,000 people, and you get 1084.76 sq ft/person. That's approximately a 33' x 33' plot of land for every person on the planet, enough space for a town house.
Given an average four person family, every family would have a 66' x 66' plot of land, which would comfortably provide a single family home and yard -- and all of them fit on a landmass the size of Texas. Admittedly, it'd basically be one massive subdivision, but Texas is a tiny portion of the inhabitable Earth.
Such an arrangement would leave the entire rest of the world vacant. There's plenty of space for humanity.
curious
Rob, what could you mean by that? I guess its good, because I like Pete, But then it could be bad, because it came from one of your thoughts. Not all your thoughts are bad, but sometimes they appear to come from some dark side.
Rob123
Why curious, are you taking night classes from Pete?
fun gal
Why does hating people make us human? Compassion goes a long way.......................
curious
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/video/flv/generic.html?s=inwi10s22a3q81f
I know this is a little off topic, but when I ran across this story on the white deer, I thought is was amazing.
BadRockBilly
I've been reading the Grand Inquisitioner's Manual by Kirsch. You'd be surprised how far we have not come. They inquisionor had the authority of the Civil Law complete with official witnesses and stenographers.They would update the laws when they ran out of heretics. The people turned into snitches and worse to avoid the instruments.
To quote CARCEL, goldsmith of Seville, a victim of the Spanish Inquisition.
" I was torn in pieces by the devils that rack the brains of unhappy men. Do God's eyes not reach the prisons of the Inquisition?"
curious
Stunned, fungal won't get it, they are of a similar ignorance.
curious
I can imagine then the ice age was caused by excess buffalo and dinosaurs. If we kill off all the animals and eat only vegetation, can we stop the next global climate crisis.
Rawhide, I really enjoyed the video. They tried as well to show Professor Carter of cherry picking days to make his point, but failed to put it in context of thousands of years.
Rob123
rtr: I say this as a person with 1/2 a beef, raised by my neighbor, in my freezer.....If one sits back and does the Economics of eating cows in the sense of energy in-energy-out, calories consumed by the cow and then consumed by the person, it's not a good way to feed ourselves, using LOGIC and MATH. I think that if one wants to talk me and others out of it, cool. But, I do like a good steak. When the world's population doubles in the next century, well, NOT eating beef certainly won't kill us. While eating beef will kill many...not as many as the Resource Wars that are sure to come, but hey, 1 death is a tragedy, 10 million a statistic.
fun gal
I kinda see what he's saying. Goes back to the "Inquisitions"......probably farther than that. History.
rtr
Jack
Inhofe says Cap-and-Trade is DOA in the senate.
The reasons for this are legion, mostly to do with unwillingness to pay for either of them.
===============================================
Agreed, I was merely pointing out the stupidity of just how far and out of control this Global Warming garbage has become.
Now if we can just get the losers in Washington D.C. to understand that we the MAJORITY here in the USA feel the same way about their fraudulent death care.
stunned
Sorry, read Wilson's posts and you will get it. Christians are apparently the root of all the evils of the world. Now THAT'S quite an assumption.
JackPoynter
Inhofe says Cap-and-Trade is DOA in the senate.
Copenhagen will not reach a worldwide committment to CO2 reduction.
The reasons for this are legion, mostly to do with unwillingness to pay for either of them.
stunned
fun gal, read Wilson't posts and you will get it.
fun gal
Gee stunned, that's quite an assumption (re:Wilson). Hate?? Not everyone "hates" people. Some of us "hate" things, circumstances, etc.. So to hate "someone" makes us human? I don't get it.
rtr
Dateline: Copenhagen
Discussion Forum on Livestock Emissions: Weigh in Here
Alexander Ochs Dateline Copenhagen 2009-11-05
"In an article in the November/December 2009 [PDF] edition of World Watch Magazine (“Livestock and Climate Change”), authors Robert Goodland and Jeff Anhang argue that livestock emissions have been severely underestimated. In their view, livestock and their byproducts account for at least 32.6 billion tons of carbon dioxide equivalent each year, or 51 percent of annual worldwide GHG emissions. Based on their analysis, Goodland and Anhang recommend a radical decrease in meat consumption in order to help slow climate change."
Your new Cap and Trade tax will now be added to your grocery bill......{-:
JackPoynter
Frank, this one'll choke your posting program. Sorry about that, I think they're all worthwhile and to the point.
Here's a few links from late yester-evening:
For those who believe in AGW, a book review on how carbon emission trading won't help:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091127124225.htm
The AGW folks say all glaciers are shrinking, in particular one in the Himalayas, according to their satellite data. The Indians who live there disagree:
http://yesbuthowever.com/himalayan-glaciers-8136289/
This is a dense and detailed analysis of the AGW issue from 1996 to the present:
http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/30/climategate-%E2%80%93-by-andrew-walden/
Different viewpoint, slightly different analys, early 1990's to present:
http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/30/climategate-%E2%80%93-by-andrew-walden/
stunned
Wilson, wisdom comes from God, therefore, you have none. You have made an incorrect assessment of me. I'm a Christian. I know what I believe and more importantly, I know why I believe it. Rob123, don't worry about my blood pressure. I'm very content and confident in my beliefs. I sleep well at night. I have to say, my heart goes out to people like Wilson who have had a bad experience with Christianity and therefore spew hatred for my faith. What confuses me is that there are 165 million people who profess to be Christians. Just because people claim to be Christians doesn't make it so. Whatever bad experience you've had is unfortunate. You say you're incapable of hate? That would make you a liar. Everyone is capable of hate. That's one of the things that makes you human. So you can continue to say you don't hate anyone and continue to spew your "non hate" at all religions. At least I'm realistic. "For the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Are you exempt from this? In your mind you probably think you are. I also realize that converting someone of your age to may faith are statistically minimal. I'm certainly not trying to do that. I just don't understand people's attacks on Christianity as opposed to radical Islam for example. From your picture, I would guess you're old enough to be my grandpappy. Old people tend to be a little grumpy and nasty when their true heart starts to show through. I'm hoping when I get to be your age that I've worked through all my "yuck" so I can be a kind person and have kind things to say. Wish me luck?
Pete
Naturalresources....your post on Wilson and Bronco is more discerning than you know. ;-)
BadRockBilly
"All part of the “pure and applied” science of progressive globalism." I think this quote from Mr. Miele is what he means by " the adgenda of the global warming crowd".
The religion/science of the progressives is being shoved down our throats like the Christian Missionaries in their Holy Righteousness tried to convert the American Natives into God Fearing subjects. Enslavement is the result of blind acceptance. If the Natives could read they could have read for themselves about the wolves that come in sheep clothing or the leavening of the Pharisees.
naturalresources
Wilson, somewhat biased remarks, but scary stuff, indeed. You should maybe think about a vacation to Hawaii and maybe hook up with Bronco for a ride on the Harley to play a few rounds of golf and get in touch with the Hindu crowd.
Rawhide
Whenever people insist they know the "truth" and anyone who disagrees with them is absolutely wrong or misinformed, then you can be sure that person's bias has distorted any truely objective thinking. When a politician jumps into the same debate, then you can be sure he's in it for some personal and or financial gain. Enter Al Gore into the debate over global warming. His "Inconvenient Truth" was totally discredited by many well recognized scientists from the beginning, but those who wanted to believe it was "the truth" were blind to any objective reasoning on the subject. The same can be said of many people in regards to their religion, but that's another topic. So now it might be appropriate for some people to take another look at the following talk by one of the scientists who dared to question Al Gore's "truth" about global warming from the beginning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOLkze-9GcI&feature=related
Rob123
stunned.....after he gets his fingers into the holes, he usually checks for a pulse. Try to relax, ya don't want high Blood pressure when he continues the analysis. And listen up, he actually knows what he is doing.
rtr
You know Wilson for as much as you lecture against Christianity I think you would make a fine preacher the way you get right up their on your holier than thou podium.
With the high and mighty attitude you have of yourself I believe the next time I hit my finger with a hammer I will use your name in vein.
curious
Stunned, like I said...
Wilson
stunned, first you pretend to know the mind of God then you pretend to know mine. Like most, you have spent more time researching and buying the right car for yourself than you have spent in studying which True Religion will get you to your Eternal Reward. I do not hate anyone. I have yet been incapable of hate. I have strong dislikes. One of which is pretentious religions based on a stringy porridge of astronomy, hearsay, superstition, and fantasy, made by man to control man, and either indoctrinated at an early age when the mind is innocent and trusting, embraced because mom and dad belong, or out of complete and utter desperation. On your knees indeed.
I stated a fact about Christianity. That religion uses Third World countries as soul farms, prohibiting birth control, allowing diseases like AIDS to flourish, and swelling the population which severely lowers the standard of living for everybody living there.
And Ccurious, according to the Bible, you watching the Poltergeist is a sin. Even little old Harry Potter will get you to hades. God prohibits witchcraft, sorcery, charmers, mediums, astrology (What sign are you?) in Deuteronomy, Samuel, Galatians, even in Revelations.
The fact is, most people know very little about religion. You break more of God's laws before breakfast than you would even think to believe. How popular would Christianity be if we knew all about it? It would die out, with belief being only held by a handful of fanatical fundamentalists like the ones who fly airplanes into buildings.
Paul even prohibits debate so if you really are concerned about your eternal soul, you should be the one leaving the room, not me as you suggested.
I have to get back to work. Tonight maybe, if Allah wills it.
rtr
curious
Do they get to revoke the Nobel Peace Prize if it is found that the premise is a hoax? Or does this say that there is no value in the criteria used to establish the award?
========================
The criteria you say, I think that went out the window when they gave it to Obama.
curious
Daily jokes
Polar bears are so distressed about global warming,a large percentage of them have been diagnosed with bipolar bear disorder. - Hunter Downs
L'AQUILA, Italy – President Barack Obama joined other world leaders on Wednesday in backing new targets for battling global warming, supporting a goal of keeping the world's average temperature from rising more than 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit). This enormous task will be accomplished by putting muzzles on the 4 hosts of "The View". - Raymond Dean
curious
"Former U.S. Vice President Al Gore and the U.N. climate panel won the Nobel Peace Prize on Friday for their part in galvanizing international action against global warming before it "moves beyond man's control"."
Do they get to revoke the Nobel Peace Prize if it is found that the premise is a hoax? Or does this say that there is no value in the criteria used to establish the award?
rtr
Hey Rob here is a new word for that extensive vocabulary of yours "Globaloney" hoax.
rtr
ACORN Enters the Highly Lucrative Global Warming Hysteria Business
By Matthew Vadum on 6.8.09 @ 6:56PM
"Now the ACORN crime family is jumping on the global warming alarmism bandwagon, according to (the left-leaning) Worldwatch Institute.
The radical community group, which is now facing voter registration fraud charges in Nevada, has joined forces with Al Gore and other groups for the ultimate taxpayer shakedown: carbon emission controls".
Rob123
"(UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data...." Do you have any idea what this does to the Baltic Dry Index and the futures cost of Russian Crude Oil Freight Rates to the U.S. East and West coasts? I don't know how to proceed? I was thinking by next summer the first loads would start. Geez, those Brits screw everything up. Why can't they be good scientists like the ones on Fox News? You know," just the facts, Maam! " like Bush and Cheney did so well for so long. It's always reduced to a Cat and Mouse game, with so many variables ya might as well flip a coin.
rtr
Rob
Hey, rtr.....I don't remember getting an invite to your Bar mitzvah last week, so I guess the snub is being returned. Isn't that what Politics is all about?
=================================
Well I'm not Jewish so that might have something to do with it.
Rob123
Hey, rtr.....I don't remember getting an invite to your Bar mitzvah last week, so I guess the snub is being returned. Isn't that what Politics is all about?
curious
Stunned, I am sure Rob believes what he thinks about Wilson is true. But my gut tells me he is like the preacher in poltergeist. Ringing in the sheep has a different meaning when he sings it.
naturalresources
"SCIENTISTS at the University of East Anglia (UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.
It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years.
" Gee; it looks like looks like the Global Warming scientists may have relatives working for Acorn.
rtr
Hey naturalresources, I noticed you and me and the rest of the conservatives weren't invited to follow the liberal gang to take over any other blogs, At least we will be left here in good company.
stunned
I agree with Rob123. We humans are just along for the ride. It would be quite arrogant of us to believe that we humans are the cause of the increase and decrease of global temperatures. One belch from a volcano does more damage than 100 years of pollutants by humans. It is a proven fact that CO2 levels increase AFTER the temperature rises. I'm not saying this gives us free reign to pollute our environment. I think it's an outrage that we are having a hoax shoved down our throats so we can give more control to the government and line their pockets. Did you know that the explosion of one large solar flare can release more energy than 100 billion atomic bombs? No one can really comprehend how insignificant we are. Again, we are simply along for the ride.
Rob123
Thanks for wishing US well, NatRes. I do appreciate the sentiment.
And stunned......Wilson is just a pragmatic existential conservative of the Doubting Thomas school of thought. He doesn't persecute, per se. Just likes to put his fingers in the nail holes.
naturalresources
Benzd says "So, Woody, Sorry SOB, Rob, Tillie, KimberP, Future Res, Flathead Frank, Hans, Badrockbill, Wilson, oh man, I know I am leaving out the names of others whom I enjoy reading, anyway, make your voices heard should you wish. "
This very much sounds like a "call to arms" to the liberal posters here who can't handle the fact that they are increasingly being proven wrong by facts and figures posted by those who have the time and resources to research them....and Fox News and Frank, of coarse. But if biased Benzd is the best you can come up with for a fearless leader, God help you . Oh, I think you forgot Tox, Tox, Tox, Tox.
stunned
Wilson is yet another poster who hates Christians. Not surprised. It's always the liberals spouting off about tolerance who are absolutely the most intolerant people I know. Sad that you live with so much hate and contempt in your heart. As for me, I am a Christian, I will never apologize for my faith. Obeying Christ is the most important thing in my life and so because He calls me to love my enemies and pray for those that persecute me, I will be on my knees for quite some time this morning.
Editor
Wilson: When did Bronco get banned? That's news to me! Please let him know also. (In other words, he has not been banned.)
As for "Report abuse"-- yes it will get a comment removed, but not if just one person votes for it... And not if one person votes repeatedly. The fact of the matter is most people don'tseem to have any interest in controlling what other people post. (The exceptions would be racial slurs and so forth.)
Woody
rtr Let me be perfectly clear. My statements were and are directed specifically at YOU. One could arguably say that Frank was included and I would not disagree. The best part of all this is that under the new lack of any rules I can now call you the pu$$y that I have always thought you are.
Rob123
25% of all the electricity consumed in Montana was consumed by C.F.Aluminum, when they had all the Pot Lines running. 28% of all the electricity consumed in the U.S. from 1945 to 1975 was for the production of Nuclear Material for Bombs.
rtr
Rob, I see when you were coming from now, It has been nice talking to you today. Thanks
I knew about the Glaciers coming down from Canada though Idaho and then on to Missoula. Great stuff at Farragut State park on it if you ever get a chance to go there.
Rob123
rtr: "NOW it is enough, Hows that." Please go back and find my statement to that affect, and cut and paste it. Not out of context....The whole thread. And I said MY statement.
Rob123
Jack....I keep forgetting your way too close to Washington, D.C.. (-: Anyway, the National Bison Range is South of Polson, Mt., and Flathead Lake, and from it's Summit, accessible by car during the Tourist months, it gives one an excellent view of the Flathead Valley. With a smidgeon of Geology studies, it's a "Look at that! Ya can see where the Glacier dumped huge amounts of this and that, " etc. It's worth a trip, if ya get a chance.
rtr
Jack the USGS shows that the glaciers in Glacier Park are shrinking BUT we have had lots more snow in the last couple years which relates to growth over time and like I stated you have to take into concideration the Aluminum plant which just shut down.
You might not think an aluminum plant could be of such an importance but the way the heat escaped was right through a tight canyon and then directly into and over Glacier Parks glaciers. "When it was running full load it took all the power that came out of Hungry Horse dam so you can imagine the energy and heat produced from it" "That does NOT relate to man made climate change across Montana because of it however since that is NOT the case just so we are on the same page there"
Like I said time will only tell when it comes to that.
Rob123
rtr.....I guess what I am saying is that Geologic Time is different than what most humans understand as time......Glaciers come and Glaciers go......The Earths Orbit, the fact that the Sun is more like an oven that doesn't heat consistently than some Aristotelian Absolute, the fact that sometimes we have Krakatoa size volcanoes or Siberian size cracks in the Earths Mantle, etc. We need to watch our Pollutants......outside of 1/2 to 1 1/2 degree C human induced temperature change, us Humans are just along for the ride.
JackPoynter
My wife wants me to come to bed. Best offer I've had tonight. You all have a nice evening.
curious
Jack, I was misunderstanding, I just thought you needed currently growing glaciers, I guess I didn't see you wanted a specific one. I am not much help
Rob123
One of the "Plus" aspects of a World Economy is that the Power Brokers in Government are a little reluctant to blow the Heck out of another country when they own a big chunk of the factories/natural resources and are getting a good return on their investment. The $Billions China has in Canada and Brazil are examples. And the Consumers in America and Europe who buy all the expensive stuff that the Chinese make but can't afford to buy, yet. However, China has some serious Ethnic Tensions.....China is actually a number of Ethnic Groups who were pushed into a Melting Pot, while in the United States the Melting Pot was open for anyone to enter. It's problematic, as groups rediscover their Roots. And a lot of Muslims in China. And as we in America learned in the 60's as the Baby Boomers became adults, young males hanging out in large numbers are very susceptible to testerone driven ideologies and it can get weird, until they are finally tamed by a female. Of course, it's not a new phenomena, except for the fact that each generation has to relearn it.
JackPoynter
curious @10:24 pm,
That's the site I was looking at. the note for Glacier Park was from 2002. The usgs ought to have those stats. I'll see if I can find them.
JP
JackPoynter
rtr, I knew what you meant.
Rob, I'm in Kansas City, that's why I had to ask. Taking a drive is not an option for me right now, the doctors still won't give me permission since the stroke. Not trying to put you down, just explaining.
rtr
JackPoynter
With regard to Iran getting the Bomb, China doesn't like religious zealots any more than we do; they fear muslim terrorism, as well they should. So they will side with us to help remove that threat. That doesn't mean we're their buddies.
========================
I understand your entire post and agree with what you said but there could be more to it when it comes to a need to go to war and or what could encourage a war is all I was saying.
We could end Iraq and Afganistan wars right now and in a hurry if we really wanted to but there is a need to keep people out of the employment lines "You may not believe that but I do"
curious
faithful reader and Rob;
http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm
This list will list those that are growing. I previously posted links to articles about the growth of ice on our poles, this link demonstrates that while yours go away, others are growing. If the scientists would look at all the shrinkers and all the growers, and give us real information it would be helpful. As lets just say its not global warming, but climate moving. This could have global impact as well, like the best places to vacation in 100 years.
rtr
Rob, I am confused since non of those places you mentioned have had glaciers for anyones life time or since the USA was a country for that matter,,,,,,,,What am I missing?
JackPoynter
rtr,
Half a century ago, when I was a teenager, I read a science article in Analog magazine, of which John W Campbell was the editor at the time. It was an article on predicting the probability of war between any two countries.
It said the probability of war is mainly affected by three things:
1. The proximity of the two countries; if they share a border, the probability is greatly increased. (ref Iraq vs. Kuwait in the leadup to Gulf War 1.)
2. The difference in per capita income; the greater the difference, the more likely the war. (again, ref Iraq low vs. Kuwait high.)
3. The difference in population density (again, Iraq high, Kuwait low.)
Of course, there are other factors; those are the three the article addressed.
So: with reference to China:
1. Not two countries, but two cultures contained within one country, in geographic separation but close proximity; as, two provinces, say.
2. Difference in per capita income: Industrial vs. Rural should ensure that.
3. Difference in population density: again, probably Industrial low, rural high.
Look for a situation like that within the Chinese borders, and you might want to not make an investment in either province.
With regard to Iran getting the Bomb, China doesn't like religious zealots any more than we do; they fear muslim terrorism, as well they should. So they will side with us to help remove that threat. That doesn't mean we're their buddies.
Rob123
If one wants to "know" if the glaciers 'have' receded, take a drive up to the top of the National Bison Range and take a look see.....It's obvious......and maybe google Lake Missoula.....and maybe google the geology of the Willamette Valley in Oregon......"Hey, that's our Top Soil! We want a cut on your production!" just kidding......
rtr
China is starting to side with us when it comes to Iran, Kind of scary since they need to reduce their male population and we have to high of an unemployment rate. "Just a thought"
===============
Hey Jack my wife pointed out I may not have been very clear on this.
If we went to war with Iran and China was on our side we would be getting rid of their male population and are unemployed "Not a nice thought I know but wars are fought from levels we have no control over" but it wouldn't be the first war fought to reduce population and grow the economy.
rtr
Rob
Enough of this subject.......
==================
It is enough when you want it to be enough right, Gee what about telling the whole story as to the fact that Woody insulted more than HALF the USA by saying they were cowards if they weren't in the military and you jumped right in there to call me a coward since I had not been in the service along with Frank.....NOW it is enough, Hows that.
rtr
Just to let you know Jack when you mention over population it is a serious concern in China not only with gangs but the government has come out and said it is loosing control in some areas because of too many males and thought war was an option "The question is who do they go to war with" "Funny thing is push come to shove and China has always been on are side" Never know this time though and it could happen in our life time.
China is starting to side with us when it comes to Iran, Kind of scary since they need to reduce their male population and we have to high of an unemployment rate. "Just a thought"
Obviously we are to far down the food chain to know but it is food for thought.
faithful reader
Everything I've read has said the glaciers in Glacier National Park are receding. Here's a link, but I take no responsibility for its veracity. There are some stunning shots of our back yard, if nothing else:
http://www.summitpost.org/article/550744/the-disappearing-glaciers-of-glacier-national-park.html
Rob123
After a few hours of football and a movie, a lot of posts to read inorder to get up to speed......I hate doing this, but a few hours ago good old rtr put out ".....rob's comment as to how anyone that had not been in the service were cowards would you." I never said that. I was defending and adding to Woody's comment concerning "Service" and the fact that "Service-at some level" is Good. Then you, rtr, dragged the whole thing into an emotional sewer, equating those who joined the Navy or Air Force with Draft Dodgers, as if only Army and Marines were Real Men and Patriots. I disagreed then, and I disagree now. Enough of this subject.......
JackPoynter
To all of you guys:
Try to get hold of a copy of Bernard Weisberger's book "America Afire," about the first contested presidential election in the USA, that between John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. The political discussion during the runup to that election included fistfights in the streets and taverns, and the partisanship of newspapers (not to mention actual slander and libel) led to the Alien and Sedition Acts. What I've seen on this site is a patty-cake compared to that.
Passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts, along with their opposition to the War of 1812, eventually led to the destruction of the Federalist Party, as Jacksonian Populism became the order of the day.
I'm not saying this is an exact parallel, I'm just saying the little bit of scuffling you guys do is not a threat to anybody. Furthermore, I personally like to see people letting it all hang out, it lets me know where they stand and how to judge their partisanship.
When it comes right down to it, that's what free speech is really all about; openness allows us to judge.
JP
rtr
DavidS
Certainly, most Montanans look to the Missoulian, the Billings Gazette, the Montana Standard and the Great Falls Tribune as far better papers and opinion leaders
=========================
Then might I suggest you go post there, Oh yeah those are conservative areas too and you are no more welcome there than you are here.
By the way have you added anything to this column today other than insults to everyone since it is us conservatives that are the Majority in the Flathead that support the DIL and you are but a blip on the radar screen here.
curious
I don't think we have a global warming but a global shifting, where areas that were warmer, now colder, and those that were colder not warmer. Did you know that the earth magnetic field rotates at an average of every 250,000 years, the last time it happened (in Wikipedia), around 780,000 years ago. The following links will discuss some of the reports on growth in Antarctica. I tried not to use FOX links, but the other stations don't want to talk about it. Some of these articles have thought about why the scientists might cook the books. And others agenda's. So you as with any new reports, filter through for actual news and opinion.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/02/media_credibility_not_ice_caps_1.html
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/MISLEADING_REPORTS_ABOUT_ANTARCTICA.pdf
http://icecap.us/
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jeff-poor/2009/11/29/buchanan-gore-s-moment-passed-no-proof-manmade-global-warming-clift-s-res
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517035,00.html
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press.office/newslink/item/1156420589
DavidS
It's sad that our little country editor has gone so far off the deep end in loudly and broadly proclaiming his neo-conservative views. Most communities expect their local papers to contribute positively to discussion of public issues rather than to allow their editorial pages and websites to turn into virtual sewers. One gets the impression that our little country editor is an intensely dissatisfied person. Perhaps he's angry that his career has only progressed to overseeing a small town paper of mediocre quality at best. Certainly, most Montanans look to the Missoulian, the Billings Gazette, the Montana Standard and the Great Falls Tribune as far better papers and opinion leaders rather than followers of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh and others of that ilk. Perhaps his distress is more deeply seated. A nice long sabbatical might be helpful in relieving his rapidly mounting angst which seems to be boiling over with increasing frequency each week. A brief course in anger management might also be useful.
JackPoynter
rtr, I think that once population densities get great enough, stress will cause fewer babies to be born.
curious, I don't really think we know what the people in those areas will do. I know what we are afraid they will do. I can try to extrapolate from our own experience in the developed world, but that's still just guesswork.
To both of you:
I have been reading Dr. Sharon Molem's excellent book, "Survival of the Sickest." The relevant part of that book to this subject, is that stressed populations experience increased methylation of genes by the epigenetic system, thus rolling the dice much more rapidly than usual to try to produce beneficial mutations. Get enough population density and enough stress, and it's possible we're going to see some amazing things. We may not like them, but we may see them.
People are what they are. Imposing draconian measures, such as the Chinese did, in order to limit population will also produce undesirable results, ref rtr's comment about increased gang activity with a surplus of boys. Increased money and supplies to these areas will produce increased population densities even faster, global warming or not. Increased education is always good, but people will normally use their increased education in an effort to maximize their own position, and since propagation of the species is hardwired into us, that means having at least one or two children. Remember that the devloping countries do not wish to accept limitations on their growth, they view it as the developed countries maximizing their positions at the expense of the undeveloped; that is an immense pressure all by itself.
I think all that can truly be said is that we are in for interesting times. Common decency and compassion are always good, trying to contain great natural pressures with governmental action strikes me as sad, mainly, as we waste resources in futile effort.
Wilson
In countries where there is no social security or retirement, more sons and daughters become the social security of the elderly. That and the influences of Christianity where birth control is a mortal sin bring about huge populations, low standards of living, and the accompanying suffering. No salable natural resources and no socialism plus religion equals squalor. Praise hHim.
rtr
Jack the last I heard was with the past two years of heavy snow the Glaciers in Glacier Park have stabalized from a shrinking mode that they were in.
Who is to say if they will grow or shrink some more, One thing that has happened that has not been reported is that the Aluminum plant put out MEGA HUGE amounts of heat that went straight up into the park through the canyon and it is now shut down as of this year "Time will tell"
It is one of them things that you can't measure daily since it takes years for changes to happen.
SorrySOB
"I'm glad to see we agree that Mike Huckabee is nothing but a liberal do-gooder with an R after his name." I'm glad to hear you say that Frank. It reinforces the point I have been making on this forum for weeks. The attempted abolishment of the moderate Republican by the far right conservatives is going to be your downfall. Although the conservatives may have some followers in hillbilly communities around the US, the GOP moderates are still who cater to big business and have more control over the moderate to left media (that you so despise). No matter how much you hope and pray that the Democrats fail, there is no way in the forseeable future that the American people will be dumb enough to vote in a bunch of conservative evangelists who would like nothing better than to take everyone's rights away.
rtr
Hey "faithful reader" do you approve of Wilson's sexual innuendo when it came to his comment "Wilson posted at 7:44 pm" to curious and belittling all conservatives with the drum beat comment which I wouldn't ever use that word to insult someone and NEVER have.
curious
Jack, I agree that nature takes care of its own in the wild, I know in times of drought, when there will be no feed in the spring, many animals will not breed. I am not so sure of that with humans. In China, it was a dictate from government to control the number of children. And it turned into a selection of the sexes for the ones they wanted to keep. In India, their population control is through attrition, and even the dying is not enough to get their attention. In the areas where we have the greatest problems for economic growth, emerging markets and other small third world, it has still not hit home that they cannot afford to continue to grow. This thought comes around from education, not nature. The intuition of these over populated areas, does not work the same as it does for deer. In some areas there is fiscal responsibility in that if you bring them you provide for them. Then there are some that will continue to make babies, and assume the government? will take care of them.
So in trying to become part of the economic world, they are doing even more irresponsible things with their natural resources. My tie into this was the thought that global warming was a platform to try to help these folks come around.
rtr
Hey Jack, There has been some discusion about the over population but where do you see it going?
China seems to have a Major problem with to many boys since they can only have one child and they are killing the girls and with to many boys crime sky rockets "A small but now starting to be openly talked about problem there" With the mass population they have it could be a huge issue.
JackPoynter
rtr,
I finally had a chance to look at the url you cited about growing glaciers, I think it was around noon.
The information relevant to Glacier National was from 2002; what's the current status?
Thanks,
JP
faithful reader
Wilson: "Editor, what exactly happens when I hit that "Report Abuse" button?"
You get to participate in a psychological study. Think of white rats repeatedly pushing a button and nothing happens. Apparently, the button is for decorative purposes only. You are free to call people whatever names you wish, accuse them of killing your mother and raping your dog, go to whatever personal extremes your conscious or level of inebriation permit. Really. Despite appeals to the editor for a little decorum, such as that enforced at other newspaper web sites, it appears that anything goes here.
faithful reader
Wilson: "Editor, what exactly happens when I hit that "Report Abuse" button?"
You get to participate in a psychological study. Think of white rats repeatedly pushing a button and nothing happens. Apparently, the button is for decorative purposes only. You are free to call people whatever names you wish, accuse them of killing your mother and raping your dog, go to whatever personal extremes your conscious or level of inebriation permit. Really. Despite appeals to the editor for a little decorum, such as that enforced at other newspaper web sites, it appears that anything goes here.
Editor
SorrySOB: I'm glad to see we agree that Mike Huckabee is nothing but a liberal do-gooder with an R after his name. Obviously, moral misfits like this suspect in the Washington shootings should never see the light of day. Let's not talk about capital punishment yet, but at least let's not let the "innate goodness of man" argument be used as an excuse to release barbaric killers on the street to butcher the innocent anymore. Life in prison without parole -- at a a minimum.
JackPoynter
With regard to over-population: Too much population will lead to a crash, that's the way the world works for all species. We are not special in that regard. But population crashes come in different forms; mostly they come in the form of limited births.
Consider: Animals do not practice conscious birth control, in either limitation or to produce a surplus. But an increase in a prey population will be followed by an increase in a predator population. And a following decrease in a prey population will be followed by a decrease in the predator population, and the surplus predators do not die of starvation, the females simply have fewer young, and the surplus is taken care of by attrition. The mechanisms for this observed process have yet to be identified, I think, but then again, I'm not interested enough to look for the literature.
European population surpluses were forecast at one time, but never materialized; as populations were urbanized, sizes of families decreased. Germany, in fact, faced a population shortage, and as a result had to import guest workers (with the attendant problems.)
I am involved in the family history of middle Georgia; in the Civil War era, when populations were mostly rural, families had many children, around 10 on average, with extremes of 20+ in the families I study. With increasing urbanization, family sizes have decreased to 1-3 children, which is the norm across the country, I think.
The same thing will be true in the future, as population densities continuie to increase. Further, and we are already seeing this happen, fewer people are marrying (or forming life-long partnerships) and the amount of homosexuality is increasing. I am not in favor of homosexuality, in any form, but my likes and dislikes are not being taken into account.
So I think we'll be all right, population-wise. Life-style-wise is another question, but nature doesn't care about that sort of thing.
Wilson
Editor, what exactly happens when I hit that "Report Abuse" button? I have been to other forums where all it takes is a few hits and that singular post is deleted. Surely honor would play some part in this and within its confines conspiratorial efforts can find no hold.
I would be interested to know what Bronco posted to get him banned though, in light of the admissible comments from rtr. I mean, how bad could it have been?
rtr
Wilson,,,I am not sure where you get your information but you need to do some research since the earth has been in a state of GLOBAL COOLING for over ten years now and almost all the glaciers are growing.
I see your true colors are coming out with sexual innuendos like you liberals normally do and then wonder why conservatives finish the art of exposing your disgusting behavior.
faithful reader
Thoughtful post, curious. Good points, too.
My problem has been that I read conclusions that seem credible by Scientist A. Then scientist B says it's all bunk and presents different conclusions that also seem credible. I haven't read their CVs, don't know where they were educated or who is really paying them, and certainly am not qualified to extrapolate anything from their findings to know whether what they say is true. I'm not willing to make up my mind on global warming along any party lines or talking points from Fox or CNN. So, there's my confusion.
I hope you keep posting.
rtr
SorrySOB
Mike Huckabee, GOP golden boy,
===================
Where did you come up with that?
Oh yeah just like the GOP knows that Obama hangs out with terroists like AYERS, Racists like Rev Wright and the list goes on.
I have to say that I am glad Mike Huckabee did not get elected but with that in mind look what we got for a president.
Editor
Bighorn216: If you are really after moderation on the website, here's how that works...
People would post comments whenever they felt like, but they wouldn't appear until I checked them and OK'd them. That would probably be every morning after I checked my e-mail, so let's say sometime between 10:30 and noon. So tomorrow morning I would check the comments from Saturday and Sunday, and approve those which seemed to be on-topic and deny those which seemed irrelevant. As you point out, that would eliminate most comments as people seem to have a hard time staying on topic. In addition, it would eliminate all of the feedback and give-and-take that takes place on an instant basis as people write back and forth to each other.
Let's say the five comments approved on Monday generate 10 responses, of which 7 or 8 and not insulting. That gets us up to 12 comments by noon on Tuesday. Of course people would stop checking back at the website to see what other people have said because there would be so few comments, and no spontaneity at all.
Is this really how you envision the free exchange of ideas? I prefer the unmoderated approach, with the occasional deletion of an offensive comment.
JackPoynter
RTR, to be honest I'm not sure that search is doing what I think it's doing. I think it should be picking up any newsitem from the given organization containing the words I'm looking for, but I'm making a couple of fairly large assumptions.
In the first place, it may not be doing what I think it is.
In the second place, it may not be doing what Google thinks it should do, I've been in computers way too long to be sanguine about their infallibility. As an illustration I used to get jury duty once every three years because of a problem in the county jury selection algorithm (they were using a non-prime multiplier, if you care.)
In the third place, it gives me weird results when I use "Wall Street Journal" as the news source, I KNOW there have been more articles than it's showing me. And no, I don't think Google has cooked the algorithm, though there are some websites that have said that.
My note to Frank was more in the nature of a technical comment to see if he knows something I don't; news searches are more in his bailiwick than mine, usually.
Wilson
And Ccurious? Next time try not to take my words out of context. I said "no one yet disagrees on the global warming beginning to sound alarmist and used for fleecing the masses."
You would have everyone believe I merely said "no one yet disagrees on the global warming"...there is a difference. A very big difference.
Wilson
Ccurious, I did make an error. It seemed to me that up until that point in the thread, no one had spoken out saying that the Earth was not getting warmer. One would have to be delusional not to accept that fact since objective evidence points to that very conclusion. Look at the melting glaciers, at the melting polar caps, at the distinctive farther north migration of both flora and fauna. (Insert "Duh" here)
Earlier you said: "Your agenda appears to be an agent of change and build a liberal platform within a conservate editorial, even if it means discouraging communication from the conservatives within this platform, We are all guests here. I think your earlier suggestion to take your baggage and go, would be a good thing."
I have no agenda, only opinion backed up by education, research, and I hope, compassion. I do not 'discourage communication from the conservatives' but have asked for decency from a poster who, I just now remembered, claims to have no political affiliation at all. That the conservatives, many of whom are Christians, and including you, have no problem with his language and assaults on others on a personal level, implies a rather relaxed and untethered concern for propriety. In short, you wouldn't let your kids hang out with such influences.
As far as you extending, yet again, another suggestion for me to leave this sight so you conservatives can masturbate to the same drum beat, I think I shall decline. Besides, guests can't ask guests to leave. We can only ask them to behave.
You and I really don't want to mix it up here in this public forum. It's not my thing. I will answer to being called names, insults, and deceptions though. But, until this post of yours, those only came from one source. Pardon me for standing up for morals and integrity.
Now, in your own personal research and observations on the issue of the Earth getting warmer, do you believe that it is? And if you do, what would be the reason all that ice is melting? And if you don't, what would be the reason all that ice is melting? If you say "What ice?" we can start talking about ignoring you, too.
curious
sorrySOB,. Do you think that curious is rtr's mom?
First off the thought in its self if a pretty sick thought. I really hope you don't have a lot of free time, if you are capable of thinking this, With too much free time you could hurt yourself. Just a matter of time. On the other hand if I was rtr's mom, how old would that put me. That is not nice to call women old. We have just spent the whole day drawing a picture of what nice would look like. This was not in the drawing. nope nope
rtr
JackPoynter
But if you use the advanced search "select news source" for ABC News, CBS News, or NBC News, you get almost nothing, less than 10 each, more like 0-4.
==========================
I can see why Benznd did not invite you to go along with his liberal gang to find another blog to raid "Your a NON believer in the holly grail of liberalism when it comes to Global Warming".
SorrySOB
Most of you have probably heard about the tragedy of four police officers being shot and killed in Lakewood, Washington. Turns out the suspect is a dirt bag name Maurice Clemmons with five felonies in Arkansas. Guess what. Mike Huckabee, GOP golden boy, was the governor at the time and had granted Clemmons clemancy. To quote concerning Clemmon's criminal history, "When Clemmons received the 60-year sentence, he was already serving 48 years on five felony convictions and facing up to 95 more years on charges of robbery, theft of property and possessing a handgun on school property." He served eleven years and was granted clemancy by Huckabee.
curious
faithful reader, I did not read your prior posts, so no I didn't know where you stood. I too am no scientist. I guess that is something to digest, if there is a need to collude this information. With the upcoming Hopenhagen next week, one of the news articles on their site, indicated if the US did not offer up $10 billion annually, the smaller and emerging markets would not participate. We dole out a lot of money now to different global causes, and are struggling to keep the printing press for our money up to date. So did the cause have to be greater than small countries in order for us and other countries in financial distress to come to the table? The Hopenhagen is a United Nations sponsored event. So I don't know. I don't like to believe in the conspiracy theories. But who knows. If the smaller countries do not participate in environmental clean-up, it defeats the purpose as it represents about 1/3 of the world.
And Bendznd, I believe there is a pollution problem, and it will threaten the existence of many third world and emerging markets. I don't need a divine solution to understand that. I also realize with time if population is not addressed, the ability of this Earth to support it will be compromised. Hopenhagen forecasted by 2025, 50% of the world will not have water. This is possible if left un-attended. and nothing to do with global warming. More like exploitation of poorer nations by their government to let them play capital games with the big boys.
And I spell checked.
rtr
Benznd
1. You don't know, but you just have blind faith because you don't want to go to he*ll.
2. I say to the individuals who are non-believers in gGlobal wWarming. Just what if? Now isn't that enough to put the fear of an eternal watery grave? It is called blind faith. You don't know, but you just have blind faith because you don't want to go to your watery death.
================================
1. The only thing I can say is I sure am glad you liberals are not judging me as to heaven or h*ll by the nasty little posts you have had here today.
2. If I were to believe in a God it sure wouldn't be the likes of Al Gore or Obama and their Global Warming SCAM I can tell you that for sure.
rtr
Frank
Could we get them to hold off on reporting about the collapse of the dollar for a while? I'd like to get through Christmas intact at least. Do what you can please. Fox and I have unfortunately already let the cat out of the bag, but I am hoping that no one noticed.
==========================
First Pete goes and tells me Obama is human, Now you tell me the Polar bears are going to be ok and now again you tell me the dollar is collapsing under the Democratic Party regime. "What's next"?
JackPoynter
Frank,
Evidently you're using straight Google web search; using Google News with "climate emails" gets about 2,300+ hits, but it's all news sources. And if you use "sort by date" you get the latest first.
Yesterday at this time I was getting something like 1800 hits.
But if you use the advanced search "select news source" for ABC News, CBS News, or NBC News, you get almost nothing, less than 10 each, more like 0-4.
JP
benznd
Let's use the "blind faith" argument with this global warming issue. Many of you have already made that the connection.
Many people/friends have used the following reasoning to believe in gGod. Just what if? Now isn't that enough to put a fear of eternal flame in you? It is called blind faith. You don't know, but you just have blind faith because you don't want to go to he*ll.
I say to the individuals who are non-believers in gGlobal wWarming. Just what if? Now isn't that enough to put the fear of an eternal watery grave? It is called blind faith. You don't know, but you just have blind faith because you don't want to go to your watery death.
faithful reader
curious, I posted my opinion the last time Frank wrote about global warming. I'm not a scientist and I've found the dueling information on the topic to be confounding. It is very difficult to sort through the hype from both sides unless you are highly educated in the field, which I'm not.
However, if scientists who are making a case for global warming feel a need to cook the books to make their case, I'm extremely skeptical now about what they have to say.
curious
faithful reader, Do you believe that global warming is real? Do you think there is a conspiracy on the part of conservatives to disseminate information intended to sabotage the belief in global warming? You stand, you post, you spell, what do you stand for?
Bighorn0216
Requests for moderation or, at least, enforcement of posting guidelines, have elicited a singular response: No.
Friends, I have to say it, rtr is “alive” here because you keep feeding him—despite frequent and repeated “swearing off”of engaging him. It's like wondering why there are bear attacks in areas where tourists feed the bears. If rtr scuttles his own ship and arrives with no integrity, and thereby forfeits all credibility—so be it. Why constantly unroll the charts and persist in pointing out to him which errant course he followed, which buoys he missed, whether he’s in fresh or salt water, or what rocks he’s steered toward? He isn’t in command here, unless you offer it to him. And from where he sits, he can’t help but participate in this manner. He obviously can't help it.
Extrapolate from these sad, damaging threads and think of all the others who are affected by the attitudes we all bring to this venue and then take back out into our families and social circles. A better account of ourselves is possible. If our positions are so easily flanked by the attack of insult, or a cut-and-paste from or link to some unaccredited, uncredentialed “source,” then our positions aren’t worth much.
Mr. Wilson has suggested that there isn’t much weight to one side of the “debate” here, and it doesn’t take much reading to find oneself in accord. That’s very unfortunate, that not only is the “discussion” completely polarized—indeed, it is preordained here, where critical thinking is in scarce supply—but no one knows what is behind, say, the taunts in the first posts in this thread about the “quiet” liberals. Why would anyone have responded at that point? Nothing had been put on the table. Where’s the beef?
By the way, Frank, you wrote that the people asking for moderation have been insisting, instead, that you “delete posts.” If you can find any of those requests – I mean, specifically, for “deleting posts”-- and can cut-and-paste them into a reply, I for one would find it very instructive—both whether those requests exist, and whether they do not. And requests for moderation aren’t sufficient.
Point of this post being, please, everyone, let's take responsibility for not feeding the klechas, the neuroses, of others or of ourselves. I understand that it’s difficult. I’ve failed more than once, here, and it went for naught. That I understand that after the fact is in part too late, and in part, not.
Someday Frank will get an award after hearing a speech remarking on how his columns always generated over 400 responses. No mention of the fact that only 6 were tangentially on topic; the rest were on rtr. That’s too bad, as well, because the columns are absolutely rife with opportunity for challenge—factually, logically, politically, and philosophically.
You can stop this rtr nonsense now. DIL isn’t going to—it likes it, and knows where the high response counts are coming from-- and the posting rules are wisps of smoke. Your choice. If you keep responding to the provocation, then you are (and I am) part and parcel of it. Your target is completely impervious to any judgment or effect. Be thankful that you have a different opportunity to consider and assess the data and the questions, and feel some compassion for what it must be like to live otherwise.
I hold the Flathead dear, but if I thought the comment threads attending Frank’s columns were representative, I’d stay far away. This isn’t the Montana I love.
Go watch the movie, “The Road,” in theaters now, and see what follows from unleashed greed, anger, ignorance, intolerance, retribution, and fear. See if that looks good to you.
rtr
faithful reader
Interesting that there are two posters who are inordinately interested in "platforms" and who keep lapsing in and out of the ability to spell simple two-syllable words. The similarities are striking.
==============================
You know I wish I knew curious since she seems to have common sense as compare to the tax and steal liberals looking for handouts that are posting here BUT I sure am glad your NOT an FBI profiler or we would all be in trouble.
SorrySOB
Thanks for helping me make my point rtr. Just when I start thinking you might have an ounce of credibility you come up with another rediculous point. I guess you have forgotten about the so called socialist marxist health care vote you have been railing about for the last three weeks, and now have put all your eggs in the global warming basket. Is this the end of liberalism? Stay tuned for more revelations from Fox, Frank, and rtr.
Editor
SorrySOB: It must be interesting to live in a world where if something is not reported on NBC, it doesn't exist. Could we get them to hold off on reporting about the collapse of the dollar for a while? I'd like to get through Christmas intact at least. Do what you can please. Fox and I have unfortunately already let the cat out of the bag, but I am hoping that no one noticed.
By the way, if you do a Google search for that story you never heard of ("hacked global warming emails", you come up with nearly 2 million hits, starting with the International Business Times and the New York Times. (Oh well, I guess they are getting their marching instructions form Glenn Beck and Roger Ailes. Darn those sneaky Republicans!
faithful reader
Interesting that there are two posters who are inordinately interested in "platforms" and who keep lapsing in and out of the ability to spell simple two-syllable words. The similarities are striking.
curious
SorrySOB, "have already used the emails of a couple of scientists to totally discredit global warming"
I didn't agree before a few misplaced emails showed up. But the desire of many liberals to hang their hat on this position of global warming, and the fact that they got sucked in, in the first place is sad. This appearant ability to stand stead fast, and ignore the fact that there may be misinformation that disputes the reality of global warming. Noble, yes very noble
The agenda of global warming may have coluded to create a cause? I guess we have to figure out what cause they were going for. Maybe to retionalize the desire to send $10 billion annually to small countries to clean these things up?? This desire to spend money that would be contrary to our own economic growth domestically? Can I assume that you believe beyond all doubt that Global Warming is real?
rtr
Liberalism is like a religion and Global Warming is at the heart of it in order to fill the coffers of the leaders of the sheep that follow it.
Kind of looks like your bible isn't worth the paper it is written on however.
SorrySOB
Isn't it interesting that conservatives have already used the emails of a couple of scientists to totally discredit global warming. Also interesting is that so far I've pretty much only seen Fox and Frank make much mention of it. Of course, the bad liberal media is not reporting on it because they are protecting its liberal friends? No, any form of media will report on something if it means ratings and advertising dollars. Bottom line is that Fox and Frank and a few of the conservative sheep on those forum are the only ones who are intererested because they are desperate.
curious
Wilson, no one yet disagrees on the global warming
Now you preport to understand the entire world knowledge base. I disagree with global warming. I do not not stand alone. Your statement "no one yet disagrees" . wrong.
I am sure all the cars they had just before the ice age probably blocked out the sun and many lifes were distroyed. There have always been climate changes, ebb and flow. Are you older than ???? If not, how could you have experienced all of the changes in the climate.
Polution as stated previously is man made and in the United States we have lists and lists of successful turn arounds. It causes the air to run black, and the water to run slimey green. But changes in climate are eternal. We have four seasons every year. That could give you an idea that change is real.
rtr
Wilson
rtr, you're sounding rather desperate.
===============
I think that would describe you better than it would me since I notice you came back to the column like I suggested you do but like we all knew you would be willing to have the government enslave us with more taxes for the rich like Al Gore and his Cap and Trade investment company that will do nothing to make the air cleaner.
Might I suggest you send Al Gore a check each month to his investment company and maybe with any luck you can write it off as charity?
curious
Wilson, because as stated, I know where he stands. No hidden agenda. Pretty transparent. I am probably not the only one to recognize that he does not have a hidden agenda.
Alternately, your continued discussions to dismiss YOUR actions as a play on words, are not as honest. You continue to do the same things over and over again, and expect different results. There are words for this action. A rose or bear by any other name would still smell the same.
Your agenda appears to be an agent of change and build a liberal platform within a conservate editorial, even if it means discouraging communication from the conservatives within this platform, We are all guests here. I think your earlier suggestion to take your baggage and go, would be a good thing.
Wilson
Ccurious, a very good post that last one.
rtr, keep it up.
Wilson
stunned, you are missing something here: no one yet disagrees on the global warming beginning to sound alarmist and used for fleecing the masses. But there are concerns about the obvious climate changing in some of our lifetimes to-date. Some of us have seen it firsthand. Whether influenced by our industriousness and heavy-handed pollution or a natural event, the evidence favors a warming trend on a global scale that only a few are willing to deny in order to discredit the current administration.
Doing nothing may or may not alter the final outcome. Where do we lay the smart money? Will it be, "Sorry, kids. We blew it." or "Sorry, kids. We did the best we could." or "Keep polluting, kids. The planet is invincible."?
rtr, you're sounding rather desperate.
rtr
Hey Wilson, Do you even know what this column is about or is your only reason for being here to attack me today?
In either case you are failing misserably.
Wilson
rtr, I know your style of argument. You throw the first stone, not to be confused with the pebbles thrown before, but your stone is injurious. Then you sit back and watch while others respond to your personal insults by insulting you in return. Then, like Gomer Pyle you shout "Shaazam, shaazam," instant justification for your initial onslaught.
Editor, any descriptive word or phrase to describe the mentally handicapped could be construed as offensive. How about a "senile moment," not to be confused with a senile movement which would be cherished by some of my contemporaries? That one irks me but only because I look old. How about the word "loon" which our coarse friend seems to favor? Why take Bronco to task for his humorous ReTaRd contribution yet totally ignore Poprishchin's numerous LIBERAL LOON attacks? (From 'loony' meaning crazy, and 'lunacy' meaning insane) Not fair play, is it? Or do you play the same game as rtr in his arguments? (See above)
Ccurious, why are you still defending the unsavory antics of your fellow conservatives? Many of you are quick to employ the old guilty-by-association accusations to the democrats. To quote rtr: "How's that working out for you?"
curious
stunned, I totally agree, I think that there are man made problems from direct affects of actions not controlled in third world countries. When I was five, my family moved from Montana to San Diego, California. My father was being stationed at the recruiting depot down there. When we went down the 15 through El Cajon Pass, I remember the smell, and the dark sky's. I asked my mom how come it stunk so much. She told me it was something called "Smog". Quite a change from Montana. We have done a lot with regulations on Automakers, and factories to stop it environmental dumping. And it did hurt our global presence from a position of competition. Unless the third world and emerging countries are forced to police themselves, it will be sad. There is no Global warming, there is no unusual climate change. There is the world paying for third world products to keep product costs down, instead of forcing compliance by boycott, to bring them up to acceptable standards. We will feel sorry for them and send clean water. They will be on late night TV, with $15 per month we can save this poor child, whose government exploited them. The money from the products sold in these country go to the governments, not to their land and people.
Until they name the real cause it won't be fixed.
rtr
Hey "faithful reader" did your friend NOTICE just how insulting and rude you have been NOT only to Frank but to everyone of us conservatives that pay for and enjoy the DIL since we are the majority here in the Flathead Valley.
They probably seen that and rolled their eyes when they read your email.
rtr
Right On "stunned" I second and third everything you stated.
rtr
Benznd
I am tired of jumping ahead 4 or 5 posts only to stop and read something aimed at the very individual whose posts I have just quit reading.
=========
You know Benznd I don't see a single thing in your post that pretains to this column, Were you talking about yourself when it came to having to jump ahead 4 or 5 posts in order to see something intellegent and aiming at specific individuals?
By the way Woody already posts at the Beacon even though he denies it so you might want to try that out but I have noticed they don't put up with his political platform building over there either but maybe you and your whole liberal gang can bully your way in like you try to bully any conservatives that post here...
faithful reader
Wilson, some of us chose to ignore the trouble-maker a month ago. I will not respond to someone who calls me a homosexual, an idiot, and other childish names. I guess that's because I don't stoop to that level myself.
I asked Frank a month ago to clean up his web site. I cited other papers that do not allow personal attacks and I gave him a link to a newspaper organization that calls it irresponsible to not monitor online sites such as this.
I sent a link of this column's discussion from three or four weeks ago to a friend who advertises here. He had no idea the web site was this vile as he focuses only on the print version. His thoughts were that no comment that would not be allowed in print should be allowed here. He also said he wouldn't want his parents or children reading what was going on here at the time. He's "evaluating" what to do.
I'm sorry that things have degenerated here as they have. Frank writes on topics that provoke discussion and it used to be mostly civilized discussion. As you can see from my post count, I don't often contribute my thoughts, but I used to enjoy reading other people's.
stunned
Am I missing something here? Why wouldn't Mr. Miele write about this subject? Those of you who believed in global warming should be outraged! You've been duped! This is the largest hoax of the century. Aren't you angry? Don't you feel betrayed? Al Gore has made millions and millions of dollars off of these lies. We are told we should be horrified at what we are doing to the environment and we are all going to burn up into flames! We were told if we really love the environment, we should give the government MORE of our hard earned money to help them control this? Carbon Credits, Cap and Trade, doesn't anyone remember? I've been called an idiot and a fool and have been told I have my head in the sand because I didn't believe in Global Warming. For me, there were just too many scientists who disagreed on the subject. It has been a bizarre ride. It's like everyone is telling me that the sky is purple instead of blue(excluding sunsets) and I keep screaming, "No! It's blue! It's blue!" Then I'm told that EVERYONE knows the sky is purple for a fact and I'm just too stupid to know it! Even now that it's been proven to be a hoax, people are still trying to say it's true. We've put soooo much money into this scam that no one wants to say they were wrong. So the sky continues to be purple and I'm just a crazy loon. Go figure! I'm so glad we have an editor that has the cahoonas(sp?) to tell it like it is. Now, we'll be hearing, "Oh, it's not really global warming, it's now called 'Climate Change'. Gee, I don't think Al Gore got that memo.
benznd
In general, I skip over the posts I do not wish to engage. However, what happens is that those I do engage are often defending themselves against attacks. It is very sad that we have this level of discord. And let me be quite clear here, I am not lily white. No one is. Yet, if you follow the posts, you will see that most all have a MUCH more balanced approach to the tone of their comments. What I have said is TRUE as I too have been posting for most of two years. There were a few skirmishes in the beginning, and I called a few individuals ignorant as*s, yet was really using the old SNL skits from the news desk. I learned somewhat over time, to temper my comments. I had a melt down last week or so with Pete over the Native American issue. I think I may have called him a waste or something like that. I was angry and thought his comments had racial overtones. I still think they were, as well as a few others who post here. You see, I am an EXPERT on the subtleties of racism. Others seem to be EXPERTS on the subtleties of Socialism, Marxism, Fascism, etc.
I will follow whatever the general plan may be. I am tired of jumping ahead 4 or 5 posts only to stop and read something aimed at the very individual whose posts I have just quit reading. Bronco, I am with you and should we decide as a group to go elsewhere or censure then I am on board. Of course, as adults we can all make our own decisions, I just do not wish to break up this group of individuals. So, Woody, Sorry SOB, Rob, Tillie, KimberP, Future Res, Flathead Frank, Hans, Badrockbill, Wilson, oh man, I know I am leaving out the names of others whom I enjoy reading, anyway, make your voices heard should you wish.
curious
It is all fear and hope, even with the recent findings that data which supported global warming is corrupt, the preparation goes on for the summit in Copenhagen.
Hopenhagen: 50% of humans will experience water shortages by 2025
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-39b6Tex04&NR=1,
this might be true, but not because of global warming, more so because of pollutants in the waters of third world countries from desires of profit.
If you go to the website www.hopenhagen.org, the mission statement;
Signs of Hope
When it comes to global warming, you’ve probably already read about all the negatives, but there’s some good news out there, too. That’s because solving global warming brings with it both environmental and economic positives. For proof, just take a look at all the climate solution news that’s already being made, all around the world
And of course the purpose for our visit as noted in their news;
Needed: money on the table
Upfront funding — perhaps 10 billion US dollars a year or more — could help close a deal in Denmark next month and keep climate talks moving toward a new global treaty in 2010. But if poorer nations see too little offered up front, the UN conference could end in discord
But not everyone is invited;
Needed: money on the table
Upfront funding — perhaps 10 billion US dollars a year or more — could help close a deal in Denmark next month and keep climate talks moving toward a new global treaty in 2010. But if poorer nations see too little offered up front, the UN conference could end in discord
Proposal to exclude Canada from the Commonwealth
In the past, the Commonwealth has suspended several countries for human rights reasons. Now, campaigners, politicians and scientists have proposed suspending Canada because of its climate policy.
So if I was to read anything into it, there will be a shortage of drinkable water, and they want all countries to pay to clean it up, instead of having these other countries invest in practices to clean up their own and thereby increase the cost of the products they export. I think we should offer up the technoligies we have learned to clean up our own country. It is the philosophy of if they are hungry, I can give them a fish or teach them to fish. One has longer self reliant potential. I don't think we should be putting up $10 billion per year of fish.
JackPoynter
Just to give another viewpoint on the term 'retarded:' The Knights of Columbus in Virginia have (or had, it's been a few years now,) a charity which they termed "Knights of Virginia for the Retarded," or KOVAR for short. My wife and I helped with their collections for several years. When I raised the question of political correctness with regard to 'retarded', I got a lot of hairy eyeballs; people who work consistently with severely, permanently, developmentally challenged folks are much more worried about how to handle the situation than what to call it; they are just not inclined to waste time on philosophical issues.
Think about this: a fully physically developed human male of 35-40 years, with a full battery of sexual equipment and needs, and with the mind of a three year old. Now think about being their parents, in their early sixties or late fifties, with failing physical capabilities of their own.
Just like with a normal three-year old, there is no more one more sweet and gentle and loving than a retarded person who is in the mood to be tractable. And, like a normal three-year old who is in the mood to be difficult, there can be nothing more terrifying than an older retarded person who is having a temper tantrum. Bones break, furniture is smashed, anything can happen.
The work that the Knights do is to build supervised group homes, both for housing of the retarded, and for places where they can be left while their caretakers take a well-deserved night off once in a while.
Call them anything you want. But if you happen to run across the Knights collecting for that purpose, please stop a minute to drop a buck in the bucket.
End of sermon, please return to your normal activities.
rtr
Bronco
I watched those that joined the Air Force and Navy during Vietnam and it was no better than draft dodging so they didn't have to be drafted and actually fight with the Army."
==========================
Now Bronco why don't you post what started it and why I posted that.
OH YEAH you wouldn't want to post Woody and rob's comment as to how anyone that had not been in the service were cowards would you.
Possibly you would like me to post what a real man like Willk had to say about your posts when it come to calling people cowards that were not in the military....
Kind of one sided and like to dish it out but you can't take it back can you...
Pretty obvious you are trying to rile me since you have had nothing constructive to add to the column today but I hate to tell you but I am in to good a mood to sit around and amuse myself by playing games with you.
To quote you Bronco, It was so nice when you were gone.
curious
Bronco, you missed the several hundred of Woody's posts, (note there is a little exageration on the several) before that picked, poked, prodded and pestered, enough to irritate, inflame and initiate any person to respond. Also this is after 1990, so still means not acceptable right?
JackPoynter
The insiders are beginning to open up. The URL is to a post by Edouardo Zorita, who appears in the Climate Emails.
http://coast.gkss.de/staff/zorita/myview.html
Title of his post:
"Why I think that Michael Mann, Phil Jones and Stefan Rahmstorf should be barred from the IPCC process"
Eduardo Zorita, November 2009
Editor
Bronco: I do recall from my boyhood in the 1960s that it was considered inappropriate to use the term retarded for the mentally disabled (at that time, I believe, "slow" was preferred (although they mean the same thing). But it was certainly never considered appropriate to use the term to refer to fellow citizens by that term when used in a non-medical sense, but rather as an insult.
Ousel1: I did not intend to refer to the 10 "uranium enrichment" facilities being planned in Iran, but rather to the Bushehr reactor that they would allegedly feed. Here is a writeup by Jon Leyne, BBC Tehran correspondent:
"Iran says the purpose [of the uranium enrichment] is to produce peaceful nuclear power. But the country's first nuclear power station at Bushehr is still under construction and others remain on the drawing board. Under this plan, Iran would increase its production of enriched uranium from just under one metric tonne last year, to up to 300 metric tonnes a year. It's hard to see how this quantity of enriched uranium would be needed any time soon, especially as the fuel for the Bushehr reactor is supplied by Russia."
SorrySOB: You worry that my columns mirror the topics that are discussed on Fox News. Instead, you should worry that only one network deemed it worth covering the CRU story until midweek. The e-mails were released on Friday, Nov. 20, but CNN did not do a story on them until after Wednesday, Nov. 25, when they were accused of burying the story by newsbusters.org (you can check all the transcripts from CNN online if you want to check for yourself).
In any case, is it really surprising that a conservative columnist would write about things that are also discussed on a supposedly conservative station? It;s like saying that your comments should not duplicate anything previously posted on dailykos.com or at moveon.org... Liberals share common ideas and so do conservatives. If this is surprising to you, I would certainly like to know why. It seems fundamentally obvious to me. Otherwise, what do the titles conservative and liberal mean? Presumably those who fall under the banner share like ideas and like principles.
Bronco
Posted by rtr during the 11/22/09 Freedom or Slavery? You Make the Call column:
"I watched those that joined the Air Force and Navy during Vietnam and it was no better than draft dodging so they didn't have to be drafted and actually fight with the Army."
rtr posted at 9:12 am.
And Frank, the term "retarded" only became offensive after the political correctness revival in 1990 by the political right during the Culture Wars, three decades after the Radical Left used it in self-mockery. In Marxist–Leninist and Trotskyist vocabulary, politically correct was the common term denoting the “appropriate party line.” Likewise in the People's Republic of China, as part of Mao’s declarations on the correct handling of “non-antagonistic contradictions”. MIT professor of literature Ruth Perry traces the term from Mao Zedong’s Little Red Book (1964).
Following this line of logic, I would be labelled a communist/Marxist/Leninist by one of your devotees here, if I had come up with it first.
But, hats off to you for actually recognizing one instance of offensive language in the comments. One has to start somewhere.
JackPoynter
If you know who George Monbiot is, this link will be significant to you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2009/nov/25/monbiot-climate-leak-crisis-response
If you don't, if you think he is a run-of-the-mill non-entity spouting off his opinion, then don't bother to read it, it won't change your mind.
But George Monbiot, aka 'the Moonbat', is normally a pitbull in defense of the AGW position. Just read some of his other posts on that forum.
The post reached from the URL at the beginning of this note is very significant; in it he calls for Professor Jones of the CRU's resignation.
He begins, "I have seldom felt so alone. Confronted with crisis, most of the environmentalists I know have gone into denial..."
curious
Bronco, I don't believe that the armed forces became an issue until Woody, started his position of if you ain't been service and harped and harped and harped. Even at me. In fact to everyone, the pregnant, the developmentally disabled, the poor and the broken. So go talk to Woody about the rocks he started throwing.
I don't think he attacked your husband, and would your husband really dump you? I was not there for the widow story, but I am pretty sure there was some victimization in that story. It appears that you want to save everyone. The others complain, and then pick up another rock. There are no saints here. There are some that don't have a full deck, there are some that have way too many cards or try to present themselves as bigger than the deck. The attacks that you are defending, are they yours personally? I can at least take the rtr for who he is, I can't say that about other posters here.
On the cry somewhere else, wasn't my idea, I think Wilson was going to and take you with him. I would miss you but you gotta do what you gotta do. Him probably not.
And for the articles, since no matter what they are an opinion, an editorial for goodness sake, not news reporting, those that have a problem with the articles could also go. Part of this process it to create thought, discussion, and I guess sometimes arguments. There is some attempt to persuade the liberals to be conservative, and vice versa. There are some attempts to force acceptance of certain social platforms. But if the intent of an article is to stir an opinion, and open dialog, then the articles have served their purpose.
Bronco
Pete, rtr is revising history again. Ye Olde Historian, where are ya when we need ya?
Woody and Rob will be posting soon enough. And rtr's rebuttal? "Ya just cain't trust 'em 'ere LIBERAL LOONS."
Nice try, Poprishchin.
rtr
Wilson
By the way, when you do post without hatred, insults, and all the other aggravations people find repulsive, I don't mind reading your stuff.
=================
As long as you have been here you have had nothing to add to any of the columns so the ONLY time I read yours is when I see my addy in your post.
rtr
BadRockBilly
Give em he LL rtr.
===================
I have to admit I am in a pretty good mood today and just sitting back watching the hail storm come my way....
rtr
JackPoynter
But you've got to admit your posting style tends to put people off.
============================
You know the funny thing about is the two that are complaining here seem to always be the ones that start it but just like most children they can't take it when it comes back at them.
Kind of like Bronco's statement of me calling the armed forces cowards which is a lie but it works for him even if it was taken out of context, The reality of it was they called me and every other person in the USA a coward if they were not in the service, The widow he refers to only had a political agenda when it came to looking for handouts nothing less and nothing more and the dumping of the husband was in response to a derogatory post that Rob had made towards me.
They love to dish it out by they sure are thin skinned when it comes to getting the same thing back.
SorrySOB
Do you think that curious is rtr's mom? They seem to have that need to protect each other. Sort of like the kid who dropped out of a Pennsylvania high school and a mom without a husband, they have only each other to turn to.
Bronco
Ccurious, so if I were to call our armed forces personnel cowards, insult your husband and say he was seeing another woman and was going to dump you after carrying you financially for decades, call a widow lazy and stupid because her husband died of cancer and she had to raise her two kids alone, lie and call others liars, insult anyone who disagreed with me for lack of the wherewithal to construct a viable argument without such rancor, would that be alright with you?
Why do you sidestep proper censorship when the offender shares your politics but predict your happiness when those opposed "cry somewhere else?"
I can show you what would happen to a liberal should he exhibit vulgarity and a disdain for the rules of engagement here if you so wish.
Funny about that Fairness Doctrine being enforced here, isn't it?
BadRockBilly
Wilson; rtr is a little hard to cuddle up with. Like a Racoon with his foot in a trap he will stike at even an attempt to help him. He is perhaps rightfully suspicious of hidden adjendas and motives based on his personal experiences. I like that about a public forum. We get to hear the extremes on all sides. PS. There are more than two sides.
Give em he LL rtr.
Wilson
rtr, it is a testament to your courage, self awareness, and education to endorse Mr. Poynter's assessment of my comment. It is also a testament to my comparison of Poprishchin to you.
Keep proving me right. Like you, I need validation too.
By the way, when you do post without hatred, insults, and all the other aggravations people find repulsive, I don't mind reading your stuff.
JackPoynter
Thanks, RTR.
I try to pay attention more to what a person is saying, rather than how he says it.
But you've got to admit your posting style tends to put people off.
Wilson
Headline news in both the nation and this column are parallels.
Nationally: Iran plans to build 10 new uranium enrichment facilities, a dramatic expansion that represented a slap to the U.N. nuclear watchdog, days after it demanded Tehran stop construction on one plant and halt all enrichment activities. Iran's defiance will likely heighten tensions with the West, which has signaled it is running out of patience with Iran's continuing enrichment and its balking at a U.N. deal aimed at ensuring Tehran cannot build a nuclear weapon in the near-term future. The U.S. and its allies have hinted at new U.N. sanctions if Iran does not respond.
Locally: rtr breaks the rules and the other commenters want sanctions. rtr goes into hyperdrive as seen in last week's column and tensions are heightened and commenters are running out of patience. Commenters have hinted at sanctions if appropriate responses are not met.
Jack, thanks for the compliment. I find your posts very intelligent also. A bit verbose like myself, but a learning experience nonetheless.
rtr
JackPoynter
Ref Wilson@11:52 AM.
Man, that is the most erudite flame post I've ever read. And I read a lot of this sort of thing.
==========================
Welcome back to zoo "Jack".....smile
BadRockBilly
According to R.B. Fuller our efforts in almost every aspect of or existence is only a couple of percent effective When most of our efforts are over ninety percent wasted we can save tremendously by working in unison. We and our efforts have been divided in this selfish self-centered society.
curious
rtr, I think the site will be pleasant soon when the persons who cry wolf, cry somewhere else. Or were they just wolves in sheep's clothing. At least I agree with your political platform, you have never been misleading about who you are. Make no mistake.
SorrySOB, this is what free-speech is all about. If you don't like the food or the service, wouldn't you go to another restaurant? Especially if the food doesn't apparently agree with your stomach. As you noted there are others forums. Not the only place in town to eat.
SorrySOB
Once again your narrow mindedness is showing Frank. Just about every forum I have been on has an option to simply block other posters. You obviously want to turn this into a free speech discussion - especially since the free speech being discussed follows your Fox News puppetry. If the options are there to allow individuals to block other posters, then implement them. Otherwise, just say so and stay off of your soapbox.
rtr
Wilson
rtr, don't play me for the fool.
==============
It doesn't look like I need to do that since you are doing such a bang up job of it yourself.
rtr
Rob I have never said we shouldn't be concerned with polution "I agree with you there" but when the enviromentalists are destroying our jobs and the enviroment itself "Tons of examples there" and the motives are purely monitary for the likes of Al Gore and the rest it becomes an obvious scam and a half and has turned any good that could come of it into a joke when it comes to enviromental issues..
Bronco
Frank, no one has asked you to revise the environment in this room like the scientists in your column have revised the global environment. (Please note that I'm trying hard to stay on topic) However, you have been beseeched over the past weeks to apply the rules to the most obvious transgressor. It could prove to be a tipping point for future discussions being more civil and less personally insulting.
No one disputes the categorical fact that there is one dark cloud here with no silver lining. Not that he is incapable of discussing issues without personal insults, only that he chooses not to and has made a mockery of the rules and nearly single-handedly lowered the bar for everyone.
My question is, why do you choose to defend his vulgarity over enforcing the rules of this website? Yes, we have nearly all of us responded in kind to his insults and classless behavior, but it's beginning to sour. Abandoning the rules is anarchy. You allow one to fight with the gloves off but subject us all to censorship. In a fair world, all the gloves should come off or we should all have to wear them.
JackPoynter
Ref Wilson@11:52 AM.
Man, that is the most erudite flame post I've ever read. And I read a lot of this sort of thing.
JackPoynter
Rob,
You already know I don't think much of the whole AGW issue, we've had that discussion already. Not quite sure what you mean with regard to 'my personal bias' with regard to it not being reported in the mainstream media. I have yet to hear one report on NBC, ABC, or CBS. The Wall Street Journal has had many reports, several of the big city newspapers have weighed in, and many editorial blogs, like Frank's here, have invited comment.
So if you include newspapers, yes, there has been comment. But I am totally confused about why the big-3 networks aren't reporting it.
Fox and CNN have their biases, we all know that.
But we should all be able to agree on one thing: the intersection of science and advertising is bad news, and the integrity of the scientific process is paramount. The CRU seems to have approached this like it was something to be sold, rather than proved or disproved. Since they seem to have obfuscated the scientific process, I don't know how anyone can tell where we really are on climate change and its relation to anthropogenic processes.
What is needed is robust quality control, which in relation to science is usually termed 'peer-review'. And the best kind of quality control is antagonistic. A system verification process, in information system circles, is initiated to a view with proving a system cannot work, system verification is considered a failure if it doesn't find errors. And all systems have errors, above the trivial level.
The CRU appears to have obviated that kind of verification by losing their data and methodology definitions. That is system mismanagement, and regardless of the truth of their contentions, deserves punishment, and would be a career-ending mistake in any of the institutions in which I've worked. In a service bureau, that would constitute grounds for suit, and refund of all moneys paid to date. The managers involved, who bear the responsibility for system integrity, would probably never work in the industry again.
The bottom line is that we simply cannot verify any of their results for which they have lost data and/or programs. How much of that there is will be turned up by the various governmental reviews in progress; that's why they're important. The Freedom of Information Requests are another issue entirely, those are criminal matters, and will be handled by the appropriate authorities.
Until we have reassesed the situation, we should not be making trillion-dollar decisions. That ought to be clear.
Why the polar regions are clearing is quite another issue, distinct from ethics and verifiability. If indeed average global temps have declined over the last few years (and how can we tell? That's all based on the bollixed data from the CRU,) we ought to be looking to find out why the icepack is down. And I thought someone on this forum (I believe it was RTR) said glacial decline in your area was caused by reduced rainfall? Somebody tell me if I'm wrong, please. Every time I go back to look at the older threads my computer locks.
JP
Wilson
rtr, don't play me for the fool. I saw firsthand how you pretend to be who you are not then the real you shows up, vile, insensitive and ignorant of your own behavior. One need only to read your posts over the past few weeks and the other's posts concerning you to conclude your character.
Bronco, I'll consider joining you in cleaning up the room, a silent boycott of non-participation. It's rather Gandhi-like in its non-violent conflict resolution approach. Any other takers? Left alone, he should be quite the entertainment. Benznd will find it a fascinating study, worthy of a late-life thesis?
Reminds me of Nikolay Gogol's Diary of a Madman. The Kafka-esque image of a man versus isolation. It's written in first person; Poprishchin's gradual descent into insanity. He begins by rationalizing various affronts to his dignity. Over time, however, reason gives way to delusion. He assumes a new identity to achieve rationality but his deepening psychosis leads to his eventual madness. We may not only be witnessing such a sad story but actually abetting the final outcome.
On the other hand, it may prove merciful to engage the vile foolishness to retard his slow decline into insanity. Perhaps the resident psychologist can shed some light...at the risk of further warming the planet with heated debate.
SorrySOB
Considering you live in a trailer in the sticks, I'm guessing you probably wouldn't be pounding a ton of money into anything.
Rob123
rtr: Your conditioning statement "right now" is appropriate. The reflective nature of Particulates REALLY is a concern, and a lot of Science on the Shelf, so to speak, that has been gathering dust as the Global Warming Bozo's got all the attention. It's not the first time 'the Real problem' became hidden by the glamorous talking heads of the News Media and Politicos as they formed a consensus of "dumb, dumber, dumbest" and called it brilliant. It's like the 2nd coming of christ. What is more likely to happen is a bonding of, say, SO4 and H2, at altitude, and then it will fall like rain. Fun Stuff.
Nothing like a little SO4H2 to ruin a picnic. A lot of NO2 andNO3's getting pumped out too, with our desulphurized gas cut with oxygenates. More fun stuff.
Editor
So, you want me to start deleting comments, huh? Wow, that gives me a lot of power. I think it will be so cool when only people who have a "good attitude" get to post here. There are a lot of troublemakers out there, after all. Kind of reminds me of the approach of the global warming scientists who tried to shut down debate by preventing the other side from being heard. (Read column above!)
Hmmm, who should I start with in my effort to stifle debate? Funny thing is, I really don't know where to begin. Seems like there are a lot of people who call each other names here, but which is worse: socialist or retard? I figure anyone who has called another user a "retard" should definitely be sent home with a note for their parents.
And if I just eliminated user accounts for everyone that has ever called someone else an idiot, we could start over with a new group. And I'm sure they would all be well-behaved, because our society teaches people to be civil, doesn't it? Anyway, there are about 28,000 comments on the site. I will start going through them when I get to work tomorrow, and I should be done blocking comments about the same time the national debt gets paid off.
By the way, it should be noted that if I start doing that, you will also no longer be able to follow the thread, because there will be huge gaps in the argument, including responses to non-existent posts (oh wait, I probably need to delete those too because they quoted the offending passage). On second thought, I think I will just let the free market take its course and delete the occasional truly offensive comment from either side of the debate.
And don't forget,you can always vote to remove comments if you want to shut down free expression on your own.
rtr
This is a very good read especially the one by climatologist Cliff Harris of the Coeur d’Alene Press.
http://www.iceagenow.com/Growing_Glaciers.htm
rtr
I probably wouldn't be pounding a ton of money in Al Gore's Cap and Trade investment company right now.
http://www.generationim.com/
Rob123
Jack....Thanks for the good info and insight.
"But you won't hear it on the television news, they have studiously ignored the whole thing so far. Both Washington Newspapers, the New York Times have written articles. Fox is gloating, CNN is denying anything is wrong. Biases are being revealed as never before."
That, however, was your personal bias. I've followed the 'breaking news' on CNN and Fox (right up to the laughing editorial ....too much.....like a late hit in a football game), and the WSJ has a lot of info in the tradition of 'pro-con' , 'how to place your bets NOW!'. Well, we had all better stay upwind of Mr. Wilson? And EFT's on Commodity Shipments using the Arctic Sea and Polar Route are still Viable......Which begs the question, WHY is the ice sheet not as thick as it used to be? Enough thought, lets make money and pay down the debt. Why Worry?
rtr
Wilson
I'm new to this room but I did wonder why the rules are not enforced.
=========================
If you don't insight the riot and start the insults first then you won't have a problem.
Prime example is if you read this column from the bottom up who has been insulting how here already......You get my point.
Bronco
Thanks, Wilson. I hope everyone can take a few moments and visit last week's column and read my last posts. This room's integrity has been kidnapped. And the kidnapper appears this morning with the notion that out-of-staters should have no say in these discussions about national and global concerns. With that sort of egocentrism and blatant prejudice I could say that I have been in this room close to two years, and have had a paid online subscription for much longer than that, so I have more of a 'right' than he does to post here since he just showed up a couple of months ago...back when the room was pleasant and civil.
I also agree Merlot is a fine wine and that things have changed climate-wise since I was a kid. I left Alaska for Hawaii 20-years ago. The hottest I ever saw in Anchorage was 75 degrees. Then I go back in 2005 and it's 85 degrees, for two weeks! I actually got a sunburn, usually that happened when I skied. The spruce bark beetles destroyed 4 million acres of spruce trees there; the mountainsides were brown. This was caused by a decade of warm summers that drove them north. It broke my heart to see such destruction. The warmer temperatures changed a lot up there.
Global warming is happening; why do we have to make it so political? Wilson, often your 'self-serving' notion becomes self-defeatist when politics enters the arena.
By the way, if the room's environment turns sordid again, I won't be posting anymore this week. I'll find Tox, Future Resident, Old Blue, and about another half dozen decent folks who have moved to other rooms to enjoy civil discourse. I feel dirty when I have to respond to insults and vulgarity with like rejoinders. So I just won't do it anymore.
Wilson
This global warming issue should be addressed as a 'global' concern, not as a conservative (who are all but when it comes to the environment), or liberal (darned conservationist tree-huggers!) issue. Choosing a side must be performed with objectivity and pragmatism. I see the hoax side and have a problem with it because of I don't like being swindled. But I am unmoved to make too big a stink about it because of physical evidence that does prop up the theory.
When I was about ten, sunscreen came out and was called Suntan Cream. We didn't use it because we played outside year round and were brown as peanuts during the summers. Try that today and even your 'brown-as-a-peanut' kid will suffer severe sunburn. Now high summer is like a microwave oven out there.
I remember hiking the Highline Trail in Glacier in the early fifties and Grinnell Lake was just a patch of blue-green water at the end of the massive glacier. Went there summer of 2008 with my daughter and it's now this huge lake. The landscape has sure changed up there.
Bronco, thank you for saying what had to be said last night in last week's Two Cents column. I'm new to this room but I did wonder why the rules are not enforced. Perhaps there's a conflict with the Freedom of Speech columns but then the term 'self-serving' applies to all political issues.
Rob, that is a bottle of a superb Merlot my wife and I shared with my nephew and his wife. He used to work for me and my company sent us all to Maui for a "business conference."
benznd
Well? There ya go again Pilgrim! Fur sure, this time buster, THEY ARE GONNA GET YA! This is just getting crazy! I agree, Michael Crichton hit this right on the noggin. And furthermore, the agenda of these global warmers has been exposed. And personally, I don't much care for it. No sir, don't much like it at all. Everyone, and I mean everyone, ought to wake to the reality that they are literally taking over our beloved Constitution. Read people, read!! It may be too late already. Cleaner cars? Reduced emissions? Light bulbs? Wind farms, yaaa right. In ur dreams. Let the Chinese kill themselves. Ya know, if you lined em all up and marched em into the sea, the line would never end? When I was a little kid, I could not figure out how you could line em all up to just march into that cold water? As a big kid, after observing the Republican party, the question was answered.
I read where all that smog and stuff came from secret smog factories funded by the CDC, somewhere up north, who loaded big planes in the middle of the night with this stuff and sent them out to dump this "oops, I said cr*ap and and was censured" and fool all of us into thinking we were doing something wrong. YA, rrrrright!
Louisa sent me a message to give to Frank as she is somewhat under the weather with some mysterious cough. So, she say "Nice colon this week Frank."
SorrySOB
Like I said, death in the name of religion is much more real and closer to home than global warming will ever be.
JackPoynter
It appears that the most damining information is in the comments in a file called 'HARRY_READ_ME'. Some poor programmer named Harry, who was trying to make the data mean something left his comments all through it; he notes data missing, altered, confusing, incorrect, and bypassed if it doesn't fit the paradigm. Some of it is just the frustration a programmer feels at 2:00 AM when he's trying to get a complex programming working, but most of it can't be explained away that way. I've been a programmer for more than 35 years, I know.
And with regard to fixing the programs and having them run the data correctly, much of the data has been 'accidentally' deleted, according to Professor Phil Jones of the CRU. That alone would get an administrator fired in any installation I ever worked at.
Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma has ordered a congressional investigation. The British have have begun their own investigation. There have already been calls for Jones' resignation. Based on the comments in the emails on FOI, several lawsuits and criminal investigations have begun about that. George Monbiot, the 'Moonbat' of the AGW crowd, who spends most of his time attacking AGW deniers, has said that this is a crushing blow, or words to that effect.
Jones said yesterday in a stunning reversal that he would release all data, but some of it had been 'accidentally' deleted, and in any case it would be 'several months' before releases could be obtained, meaning, I suppose, after Copenhagen is over.
As you may know, the Climate Research Unit of East Anglia University, of which Professor Jones is head, basically wrote AR3, the Climate Assessment Report (3rd version,) for the IPCC, the International Panel on Climate Change, which governs the UN policy on Climate Change. So the CRU basically is the underpinning of the IPCC.
The head of the IPCC, who is from India, has issued a statement saying this changes nothing, one of the delegates to the IPCC, also from India, has issued a statement taking the opposite view.
I've just touched the surface on this wildly fascinating and dynamic situation. I apologize for not including links, go to Google News and google "climate emails", it's all there.
But you won't hear it on the television news, they have studiously ignored the whole thing so far. Both Washington Newspapers, the New York Times have written articles. Fox is gloating, CNN is denying anything is wrong. Biases are being revealed as never before.
This is without doubt the story of the century, as big as the Pentagon Papers, bigger when you consider the literally trillions of dollars involved in cap-and-trade in this country and ETS in Britain, and like initiatives around the world. Copenhagen was pretty much already moribund, this will kill it entirely.
Obama is proceeding as though nothing has happened, so this will affect him also. His science advisor, John Holdren, is involved and is being tarred by this brush.
I've been following this story for days, and every time I write a sentence, another aspect of it leaps to mind, I'm going to have to stop.
Rob123
Sorry SOB...."Was it stupidity?" Not really. Stupidity was/is Iraq. The Bora bora Mountain episode reflected the efficiency of Special Forces, howoever when the final push came, the local Warlords didn't perform, the Special Forces didn't have the Numbers, and the Politicians were afraid of High American Body Count. A total snafu, after a well done campaign to get it done. And, the whole Martyr Cult became a possibility, in the ever present CIA-Pentagon game scenarios of 'what if?'.
ousel1
“So what we seem to have is distortion of data, suppression of evidence,
manipulation of the media, and in general a smoking gun the size of
that new nuclear reactor in Iran. It’s almost as though we don’t know
what is truth and what is fiction anymore when it comes to global warming
science.”
Ahem, “new nuclear reactor in Iran”? I think I read in some newspaper, maybe the Interlake, that it is a uranium enrichment facility. I agree if you don’t know the difference between a nuclear reaction and uranium enrichment, your chances of trying to figure out global warming are slim to none. Conspiracy theories are a lot easier.
rtr
Rob
put it into a form that only rtr could recognize as blatantly 'out of context'.
=====================
I notice you are on the attack right off the bat this fine morning "The only thing I have to say to you is Good Morning" and I completely agree with your last statement of "Soon, as the cooling continues and continues someone somewhere is going to mention the reverse effect of sunlight reflecting off the particulates in the atmosphere and we are all going to FREEZE. Just wait. I guarantee it".
rtr
From a political stand point it sure will be interesting to see what this does to the Democratic party since a large part of it's far left wing side was deeply rooted into this Global Warming whooy.
The good news is it will take a while for them to come up with something as untouchable, inconceivable and as elusive as what Global Warming was in order to create more theft of the working class money.
SorrySOB
<