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President’s record speaks louder than his confident words

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Posted: Saturday, September 15, 2012 6:22 pm | Updated: 12:32 pm, Thu Apr 17, 2014.

With the murder of U.S. ambassador Christopher Stevens, the Arab Spring has now become the Arab Fall, and the Islamic Winter cannot be far behind — yet American politicians (and the American media) continue to celebrate democracy in the Middle East as though it were a good thing.

Make no mistake — democracy is mob rule, and it was just such a mob that brutally killed the ambassador and his three colleagues — a mob no doubt spurred to action by Islamic extremists — a mob that no doubt was coordinated with the mob in Egypt that raised an Islamic flag above the U.S. embassy in Cairo — a mob that represented the underlying hatred for all Americans that is expressed regularly by millions of Arabs and Muslims.

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          Welcome to the discussion.

          270 comments:

          • Bronco posted at 8:08 am on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Islamic fundamentalism is a horrible interpretation of an ancient magic book. So is Xian fundamentalism. Believing that only one of them is non-violent is myopic. Hatred, suppression, and violence are carried out in the name of both religions. "Choosing the lessor of two evils is still choosing evil."--HTC.

            Did you read about how some countries in secular Europe have banned Muslim minarets, veils in public, and are stepping towards criminalizing the ritual mutilation of children? And that the religious leaders are protesting?

            Do you feel that ritual mutilation of children should be illegal?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:50 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: Duh. You claim Christianity to be a religion of peace. Read how the story of peace ends, you nitwit. Death to over 90% of human beings on this planet. Makes the Muslims Pikers by comparison.

            HTC: Boy, you just draw all kinds of conclusions which aren't supported by the facts or my statements.

            What I said was that Christianity is not a threat to us like Islam is, because it teaches its adherents to love their neighbor and turn the other cheek.

            Islam, on the other hand, is a blueprint for a tyrannical theocracy, going far beyond just moral teachings.

            Please, do try to keep up.

             
          • Bronco posted at 7:20 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: The Christian message as found in the New Testament...
            Bronco: Yeah, and just wait until the Second Coming. See how the Prince of Peace reveals himself then.
            HTC: And your point would be.....?
            -----------------------
            Duh. You claim Christianity to be a religion of peace. Read how the story of peace ends, you nitwit. Death to over 90% of human beings on this planet. Makes the Muslims Pikers by comparison.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:20 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            TYPO ALERT:

            In an earlier post I said "This fiscal year, entitlements and means-tested programs amount to 70% of the federal budget. The DoD including your so-called "off book" expenses? 6%."

            The latter figure was intended to be 20%.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 4:12 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            kohana posted at 3:34 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012

            It is apparently the nature of 'civilized' men to have to repeatedly relearn the lessons of their ancestors.

            It reminds me of scene from the movie "The Outlaw Jose Wales" where Josey had snuck up behind Lone Watie, a Native American who was trying to sneak up on Josey:

            Josie: "...it ain't supposed to be easy to sneak up behind an Indian."

            Lone Watie: "I'm an Indian, all right; but here in the nation they call us the "civilized tribe". They call us "civilized" because we're easy to sneak up on."

            Apparently there are many in this country who want to ensure that, at least when it comes to the Islamists, we're easy to sneak up on because they'll even deny the threat exists.

            Obama is certainly a member of that camp.

             
          • kohana posted at 3:34 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            A little American history that the POTUS forgot to mention at Cairo, or doesn't know, along with a number of other commenters on this blog.

            http://sarahhonig.com/2012/09/20/another-tack-to-the-shores-of-tripoli/

            It is written in the Koran that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet are sinners, whom it is the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every Muslim who is slain in this warfare is sure to go to Paradise.

            Tripoli’s envoy, Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja

            Difficult as it may be for some New York Times devotees to believe, the above wasn’t enunciated in response to an esoteric 14-minute YouTube clip, which was uploaded months ago by a California-resident Egyptian Copt, which few actually viewed but which invisible Islamic puppet-masters belatedly decried as too offensive to overlook.

            The above quote dates back to 1785 but it undeniably bloviates in precisely the same spirit as latter-day Muslim rabble-rousers. Nothing has changed since these supremacist sentiments were sounded to American emissaries Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, who were dispatched to London in an attempt to reason with the proto-al-Qaida leaders of their day.

            Suffice it to say that the negotiations led nowhere. What the two future American presidents – both Founding Fathers with the impeccable credentials of enlightened political philosophers – would hear was that Muslims are above accommodating themselves to lowly infidels and that the infidels had better admit their inferiority and pay the obligatory penalty for being inferior.

            In time, this standoff would escalate to what became known as the First Barbary War. It marked the first occasion ever that America employed military force overseas as an independent republic. The military reputation of the newly autonomous upstart from across the Atlantic was beginning to be established. America’s ability to strike far from home was tested for the first time. It was also the first time a united American force was deployed as distinct from a collection of local militias.

            This chapter in American annals was seminal enough to be immortalized in the official hymn of the American Marine Corps via the phrase “to the shores of Tripoli.”

            Few Americans today have an iota of non-romanticized inkling about their own country’s beginnings, never mind the realization that the first foreign war the US fought was with Muslims. Such ignorance is a great shame for the country which still purports to lead the Free World. But worse yet is the suspicion that America’s current commander-in- chief, Barack Obama – the latest to don the mantle of both Adams and Jefferson – has no idea.

            Another option is that he does have an idea but pretends not to. It’s hard to decide which is worse – a president who is uninformed or disingenuous. Perhaps Obama just doesn’t care. Graver yet, he might care in an alarming way – he may be willfully hostile to the legacy of American history. Any way you look at it, none of this can instill cheer in the hearts of Americans or of those who continue to count on America.

            From this history-deficient worldview springs the politically correct rationalization about why assorted Muslim fanatics have taken to the streets of far-flung cities to vent hate. Like an imperious choirmaster, the Obama administration inculcates into the public’s mind the convenient pretext that an inane YouTube clip could automatically trigger the uncontrollable fury of the mobs.

            To hear Obama’s mouthpieces, the to-be-expected reaction of the faithful is to riot against diplomatic sanctuaries (of different nations), despoil foreign-franchised eateries and obviously – it goes without saying – hoarsely recommend the slaughter of all Jews everywhere.

            The impression willy-nilly imparted by this neat explanation is that there was a specific match which ignited the flame, that the consequences might have been avoided had the match not been struck and had we Westerners been a tad more considerate of the noble sensitivities of our Muslim brethren.

            The implication is unfailingly that only Muslims possess the prerogative to be sensitive and to express their sensitivities brutally. Say it how you will, the unspoken axiom is that even a perceived affront against Islam sets loose the wrath of hell.
            On the other hand, Muslims may call Jews descendents of apes and pigs but Jews are never expected to respond ferociously because, as Muhammadan believers aver, the lowly Jews are indeed swine and hence fully deserve all the scorn heaped upon them. Jews have no right to rage right back (not that they ever do).

            The justifiably proud Muslims are in contrast perfect (which is what the appellation Muslim means in Arabic) and thus are worthy of veneration. Anything less is a severe insult that must be avenged. The very notion of coexistence is nonexistent for those who see any hint of a hint of a non-adulatory appraisal as extreme sacrilege mandating the death sentence. Simply put, the Muslim view is “we are the best, you are the worst.”

            All our Western notions of live-and-let-live might as well come from an alternative universe. They are irrelevant, which is why Obama erred so fundamentally when apologizing to Islam and bowing down to its potentates.

            This is where memory blanks come in handy. They help cover up the fact that the video clip is a trite excuse – that we have heard it all before – with the Danish political caricature six years ago, with Salman Rushdie’s novel over 20 years ago, with Jerusalem mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini’s pogrom-instigating calumnies from the 1920s onward or the license which North African Muslims issued themselves to abduct foreign mariners and hold them for ransom hundreds of years ago.

            All these are links in one long chain.

            The Barbary Coast – as it was known in the 18th century – was straddled by the independent Sultanate of Morocco and the quasi-independent states surrounding Tripoli, Tunis and Algiers, under the minimally nominal hegemony of the Ottoman Empire. All were in the business of piracy. They hijacked merchant ships throughout the Mediterranean and in parts of the Atlantic and held their crews in abject misery, in conditions of hard labor and privation, until ransomed.

            The Muslim leaders of these provinces amassed great wealth and power thereby. Before independence, American shipping came under British protection and during the Revolutionary War under that of the French. Thereafter, however, beginning in 1784, the Barbary rulers focused on American vessels.

            Attempts to negotiate the price of safe passage succeeded only partially and temporarily. The ante kept going up to the point that each honcho demanded hefty chunks of the entire American budget.
            By the time Jefferson became America’s third president, things had deteriorated into bloody skirmishes and spawned an American naval blockade.

            Then Tripoli captured the USS Philadelphia. On the night of February 16, 1804, Lt. Stephen Decatur commanded an undersized contingent of American Marines who stormed the captive Philadelphia and set it ablaze. British Admiral Horatio Nelson lauded this as “the most bold and daring act of the age.”

            But there was more to come. Tripoli itself was attacked a few months later and more months down the line the city of Derna, in Tripoli’s sphere, fell to a force of Marines and a ragtag hodgepodge of mercenaries. An American flag was hoisted victoriously abroad for the first time in what we now dub Libya.

            It all concluded in a compromise which the Muslim princes violated in no time, especially once America became embroiled in its existential War of 1812. Not until the 1815 Second Barbary War did the US successfully halt the extortions and end all tribute payments.
            There must be a lesson here for today’s pampered, more powerful and less imperiled America. No good will come of sucking up to those who believe they have the only direct line to the Almighty, and were ordained by Allah to lord it over the rest of us underlings, menacingly extract submission but dish out contempt with impunity.
            Powwowing won’t lead to a change of heart among Islam’s supremacists. The showdown is inevitable. The Barbary War’s rallying call was: “Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute.”

            Two footnotes offer further insights.

            The first goes to underscore the difference of mindsets between the enlightened West and Islam already 227 years ago. While Adams’s and Jefferson’s interlocutor justified murder and pillage as the inherent right of the superior Muslim, Jefferson was the principal author of the trailblazing American Declaration of Independence and in his later life composed an alternative Bible called The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.

            Jefferson transposed and deleted portions of the New Testament (mainly those with supernatural content which he argued were the personal conjectures and/or embellishments of the Four Evangelists) in order to reconstruct what he presented as a rational and more reliable account of the life of Jesus.

            Religious as America was, no violent vendettas were mounted against Jefferson by offended Christians. Unlike the rampaging Muslims, they made do with disagreeing.

            The second footnote is about Joseph Israel. This Jewish midshipman was killed on September 4, 1804, in Tripoli Harbor. An ornate monument was erected in his memory and that of the five other fallen of that battle. One of America’s oldest military monuments, it stands today at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis.

            In 1918, the American Navy launched a destroyer that honored his heroism. It sailed the seas as the USS Israel. It was the only instance in which a US naval vessel bore the name.

            This entry was posted in Another Tack by Sarah Honig.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:12 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Pakistan's Federal Minister for Railways Ghulam Ahmed Bilour has announced a $100,000 bounty for the killing of the filmaker behind the moving "Innocence of Muslims" and also asked the Taliban and al-Qaida to extend support to the would-be killer:

            http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/22/14036172-pakistan-official-offers-100000-reward-for-killing-of-maker-of-anti-prophet-muhammad-film?lite

            Someone better quickly remind him about his religion supposedly being a religion of peace.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:02 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Rob123: Many, many such 'loans' that are not reflected in the DoD budget.
            And the VA is sometimes counted in the DoD, but is sometimes not. Usually not.
            And the list goes on and on........

            HTC: The list may go on a bit but the math simply doesn't add up anywhere close to making defense spending equivalent in scope to the cost of the nanny state.

            This fiscal year, entitlements and means-tested programs amount to 70% of the federal budget. The DoD including your so-called "off book" expenses? 6%.

            Nice try but no cigar.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:54 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Rob123: BullSh....t! Spend the day on google and do some research.

            HTC: Naturally your "sources" on the Internet are highly reliable, even if they do come up with numbers that simply don't add up when compared to actually budgetary and nonbudgetary data, including U.S. Treasury and Federal Reserve data.

            While it's easy to some extent to hide what monies are actually being spent on, it's very difficult to hide the existence of those monies.

            Rob123: And for gGod's sake, don't believe me OR HTC. But especially HTC. He has a financial interest, and is front loaded with Naked Self Interest.

            HTC: Yeah, that's right. 95% of my business is civilian, but I'm supposedly "front loaded" on the other 5%. Did you get THAT from the Internet as well? ROTFL

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:47 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Rebel Rouser: Most x-ians are Republicans/libertarians.

            HTC: Wow! That news will come as a BIG surprise to the tens of millions of Catholics (who are mostly Democrats), Southern Baptists (which includes the majority of the black Democratic voting block), Methodists (again, mostly Democrats), Episcopalians, etc. who consider themselves to be Christians.

            As usual, you have no frickin' idea what you're talking about. But don't let that stop you; after all, it hasn't yet.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:43 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Rob123: Do you want us to stay and turn it into a Constitutional Republic just like US?

            HTC: I'd rather spend our time and energy RETURNING US to a consititutional republic.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:33 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: Yeah, and just wait until the Second Coming. See how the Prince of Peace reveals himself then.

            HTC: And your point would be.....?

            Unless you believe in the Second Coming, you've got nothing to worry about because it all happens at the hands of the "heavenly host", not by man's hands.

            Islam, however, commands that its followers convert the planet or kill/enslave those who won't convert. That's a real, clear and present danger that has been rearing its ugly head for centuries.

            Only you could equate a prophecy of a "Second Coming" with a past, present and future threat that is quite real and long has been.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:28 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            kohana: Though after watching his behavior the last few years and reading all I could on his background, I believe that the motivation behind Barack Obama is that he has no ambition, and what drives him is a life of leisure with wealth and no responsibility.

            HTC: He's hit the nail on the head. Many of his former classmates have said he was particularly lazy, and unscholarly student who liked drugs. That's probably why he's the first president in recent time who refuses to release his college transcripts.

            I had to release mine to my early employers as a newly minted engineer. I would certainly consider being president of the world'd largest superpower a bit more important than being a green engineer in a tiny electronics company; however, Obama refuses to let us, his employer, see the same information.

            To the discriminating mind, that is a BIG warning flag.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:22 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Rob123: As you know, one can say the same thing but replace 'Great Society' with 'Dept. of Defense' and 'Off-book' wars.

            HTC: It doesn't tally as high as the cost of the Great Society; regardless, national defense is a constitutional authority and responsibility of the federal government, while stealing money from producers to give it to non-producers so as to secure the latter's vote is not.

            BIG difference!

             
          • Rob123 posted at 1:37 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6490

            kohana posted at 12:40 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            I agree it's complicated. And one shouldn't forget to add in little Billion Dollar 'loans' to foreign governments that are used to buy Military Equipment and then, like Egypt, the Commerce Department forgives the 'loan' IF they play the game correctly. Many, many such 'loans' that are not reflected in the DoD budget.
            And the VA is sometimes counted in the DoD, but is sometimes not. Usually not.
            And the list goes on and on........

             
          • bill39 posted at 1:34 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            kohana: Don't answer this, I don't want to know your asinine argument.

            Good one kohana.

            kohana: My brother, an officer in Vietnam, stated to me at one time, the reason we lost was because of the politicians, they wouldn't let the military do their job. He claimed there was no good reason for us not to have ended the conflict years before the withdrawal, except for the politicians.

            A good friend that was there, said the exact same thing.

             
          • kohana posted at 12:41 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Ignorancebuster, your screen name describes you, good going.

             
          • kohana posted at 12:40 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Rob123 posted at 11:56 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012

            http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Federal+Spending+Pie+Chart&FORM=IQFRDR

            The above URL will give you dozens of pie charts, take your pick, but none of them show defense spending even an 1/8th of our budgets in any year. Also, don't know if that would also include Homeland Security.

             
          • ignorancebuster posted at 12:25 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            ignorancebuster Posts: 38

            Did you know that Obama is the root of all the problems with our lives and in our country and all problems past, present, and future?

             
          • ignorancebuster posted at 12:24 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            ignorancebuster Posts: 38

            This article is full of spin, opinion, and assumption...fear the worst and hate your fellow man seems to be the message here. Oh and hate Obama

             
          • ignorancebuster posted at 12:19 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            ignorancebuster Posts: 38

            If Jimmy Carter gets the blame for the Iran hostage situation then George W Bush gets the blame for 9/11. RETARD

             
          • Pete posted at 11:58 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Rebel Rouser posted at 10:57 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012

            Replace the word "Christian" with the word "Jew" and you sound very familiar in a historical context.

            "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."

            -- Louis Dembitz Brandeis

            You and Bronco are simply religious zealots of another stripe as you go about evangelizing and preaching the gospel of secularism and the infallibility of the STATE. This mindset has produced more death, destruction, and oppression than any other in the history of the world - but you two idiots keep dancing along to the STATE's music like a couple of marionettes faithfully parroting the PC party line. What's next? Some T-shirts emblazoned with the "Obama flag" and a little late-night window smashing party of some local "christian" businesses? If you had half a brain or knew any history you'd realize that the mentally handicapped weren't/aren't immune from the prejudice of the STATE. If nothing else, that should give you and Bronco pause.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 11:56 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6490

            kohana: "You know the slice of the financial pie for military is minute compared to the rest of the budget."

            BullSh....t! Spend the day on google and do some research. And for gGod's sake, don't believe me OR HTC. But especially HTC. He has a financial interest, and is front loaded with Naked Self Interest.

             
          • kohana posted at 11:35 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Rob123 posted at 10:50 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012

            You know the slice of the financial pie for military is minute compared to the rest of the budget. I have no preferences as to their form of government. I don't think we should have been there in the first place.

            They have their form of government based on the Koran, we cannot change it, the Russians couldn't change it. Let them have it and let them implode.

            My brother, an officer in Vietnam, stated to me at one time, the reason we lost was because of the politicians, they wouldn't let the military do their job. He claimed there was no good reason for us not to have ended the conflict years before the withdrawal, except for the politicians. The same is happening in Afghanistan, according to one report I read, they are not even allowed to chamber a bullet in their guns until they are fired on first. A really, really stupid way to win a war.

            Our politicians are so ignorant as to think they can "rebuild" a nation in our image (a democratic republic) when the Muslim image of themselves are 1000% better in their eyes than the USA.

            My person opinion? We should get every single member of our military out, now, and destroy any equipment left behind so it can't be used against us. The moderate Muslims left will not win over the Taliban, so no point in leaving equipment and supplies for them. The Taliban will capture each and every individual who worked with the Americans or NATO, and slaughter the entire family, village or tribe one by one.
            We will not be able to stop it, no matter what action we take.

            There is no hope for them, but still hope for us. If all of the above doesn't make your heart scream with rage and sorrow, you're not a civilized human.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 10:57 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1535

            Things have changed dramatically Bronco, A true Christian can screw anybody, cheat everybody, do harm to anyone, lie to all, believe anything for convenience, and "sin" at will, as all they have to do is pray for forgiveness and all is well. Please pray for kohana, HTC, bill39,et al and ask for them to be forgiven "for they know not what they do".

            Most x-ians are Republicans/libertarians.

            Hahahhahahahahahaha!!!!

             
          • Rob123 posted at 10:50 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6490

            kohana posted at 10:31 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Do you want us to stay and turn it into a Constitutional Republic just like US? I was in Vietnam when they started withdrawing troops, and I feel for the guys still there. Of course, using a bigger picture, how did we allow such Mission Creep, AGAIN? What is wrong with US? Are we really just plain stupid, rich folks? We act like it. And the National Debt is like 'out of mind' to most, just like International Law and using the Military for Nation Building. Plumb stupid.

             
          • kohana posted at 10:38 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Even more joy from our empty suit in the empty chair in OUR White House:

            http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/09/22/Obama-to-Condemn-Christian-Filmmaker-Before-United-Nations

            Obama to Condemn Christian Filmmaker Before United Nations

            Not only are we seeing the White House and State Department call more attention to the Mohammed-mocking "Innocence of Muslims" than any terrorist network ever could've ever hoped for, but the President's indefensible scapegoating of the film and filmmaker to draw attention and blame away from U.S. security failures apparently knows no bounds.

            Next week, Obama will denounce the film in a speech before the United Nations General Assembly:

            National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor previews the president's speech to the UN General Assembly next week:

            "UNGA always provides an opportunity for the President to put the international situation in context, and to put forward a vision of US leadership. I would certainly expect the President to address the recent unrest in the Muslim world, and the broader context of the democratic transitions in the Arab World."

            "As he has in recent days, the President will make it clear that we reject the views in this video, while also underscoring that violence is never acceptable[.]
            My God, between the media and the Obama White House, we are finally witnessing Orwell's "1984" blossom to life.
            As our economy slows, incomes shrink, unemployment creeps up, and poverty explodes -- the media assures us we're in "recovery" and that our frustrations should be taken out on "Emmanuel Goldstein," also known as "America's Successful."

            As Obama's appalling policy of disengaging in the Middle East comes to fruition in the form of the region exploding and al-Qaeda's targeted assassination of an American ambassador -- the media spends two weeks savaging Mitt Romney and directing our sorrow, rage, and helpless on "Emmanuel Goldstein," also known as "A Stupid Filmmaker."
            For weeks this administration, aided and abetted by The State Media, has shamelessly lied to us about what happened in Libya. Moreover, in order to cover up and distract for unforgivable security lapses, this hapless filmmaker has been targeted for all of the blame -- certainly more blame than the Administration's failure to secure a consulate on 9/11 (of all days), but even more blame than the actual murderers.
            And now, even though we know the truth about what really happened in Libya, it won't stop. It will never stop. Because Obama knows his media will never make him pay a political price for lying and scapegoating.

            At all costs, the media quietly whispers amongst themselves, Obama must be reelected.

            The most troubling and Orwellian element in of all this is that the Administration's lies are now becoming truths. As we saw in Pakistan and elsewhere yesterday, Obama's scapegoating and calling unnecessary attention to this film appears to be turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy. How many millions of Muslims are hearing about the film that might not have if Obama didn’t need his Emmanuel Goldstein? Now that our government has ensured every Islamist radical on the planet knows about this film, how much easier is it for extremists to use it to foment chaos?

            Donchaknow, it's the "in-thing," what all radicals are doing this season! Don’t you watch the American media?

            And so, next week, as Obama condemns this film, and therefore the American ideal of freedom of speech, before the entire world -- all in an effort to quadruple-down on a brazen lie that's already been exposed as such -- it will truly be the ultimate Big Brother moment of this presidency.

             
          • kohana posted at 10:31 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Rob123, and others of like mindedness, this report will no doubt make you happy, even though our remaining troupes may be slaughtered:

            http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/09/21/Obama-Reverses-Afghan-Surge-For-Political-Gain

            by AWR Hawkins21 Sep 20123

            The 33,000 troops Barack Obama sent to Afghanistan as part of the 2009 surge have been withdrawn to bolster the president's war-victory claims in the upcoming election.

            The troops were originally sent to push back the Taliban and create safe spaces in which the US could prepare Afghan forces to take over security in the country. And although that task is incomplete, the surge troops have left the country.

            The withdrawal was not expected to be wrapped up until the end of September, but it is now already complete.

            And while there's no doubt that the families of our returning military personnel will be thrilled to see them and should be proud of them, this maneuver leaves the remaining contingent of US forces in Afghanistan even smaller and therefore more vulnerable.

            But Obama wants to boast of "winding down the war in Afghanistan" as the election approaches.


             
          • kohana posted at 10:22 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco posted at 9:46 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012

            Bronco, even you don't believe this garbage, so why do you bother wasting space posting it?

            Don't answer this, I don't want to know your asinine argument.

             
          • kohana posted at 10:18 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/09/rid-the-world-of-those-savages.html

            Rid the World of Those Savages

            Posted By Froggy • [September 20, 2012]
            I had the privilege of attending Ty Woods' funeral this morning at the North Island Naval Air Station Chapel in Coronado. Ty and Glen Doherty are former SEALs and State Department contractors who came to the aid of the US Ambassador to Libya during the attack on the Benghazi Consulate. Ty and Glen were not assigned to the Ambassador's security detail. However, when the attack against the Consulate came, they ran toward the sound of gunfire and and defended the facility and the Ambassador for several hours against a numerically superior assault force, and went out like rock stars after planting dozens of those scumbags.

            Ty's widow, Dorothy, delivered an inspiring eulogy with more grace, poise, and fervor than I have ever witnessed from the spouse of a fallen warrior. I wish I had the entire thing on tape, as it should be read by the nation on the anniversary of 9/11 next year. Here are two quotes that I will never forget.

            "It is easy to write a book about being a Navy SEAL, but it is very hard to write an obituary for one."

            "To all the Operators here today I give you this charge: Rid the world of those savages. I'll say it again, RID THE WORLD OF THOSE SAVAGES!"

            http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/09/when-you-find-yourself-in-a-firefight.html

            When You Find Yourself In a Firefight....
            Posted By Deebow • [September 20, 2012]

            Number one rule: SHOOT BACK!!!
            The Washington Guardian has a clarification on the role of the Two-Ex-Navy Seals who did their frogman best to save our ambassador.
            The two former SEALS, Tyrone Woods, 41, and Glen Doherty, 42, were not employed by the State Department diplomatic security office and instead were what is known as personal service contractors who had other duties related to security, the officials said.

            The two ex-Seals and others engaged in a lengthy firefight with the extremists who attacked the compound, a fight that stretched from the inner area of the consulate to an outside annex and a nearby safe house -- a location that the insurgents appeared to know about, the officials said.

            I hope that these two sheepdogs made those Arab hill-billy, Stone Age, a s s-pirates pay dearly for every inch of territory between them and the ambassador before they were overrun. God Bless them, their families, and may they find peace now that they have been called home.


             
          • Bronco posted at 9:46 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: I know that there is no comparison between Christ's message of love and forgiveness and the Quran's message of subjugation of the entire world under Sharia law
            --------------------------
            Yeah, and just wait until the Second Coming. See how the Prince of Peace reveals himself then.

            There shall be no more war; horses and chariots shall be no more used in a hostile way; but there shall be perfect peace, all enemies being destroyed, which agrees with Micah 2:3 Zechariah 9:10.

            In other words, there will be peace for the simple reason that there will be nobody left to fight, all opponents having been slaughtered or subdued. This world “peace” is the same “peace” that any conqueror dreams of: after utterly defeating and conquering all of one’s neighbors and enemies, what is there left but “peace”, insofar as the non-existence of violence? In the accidentally insightful words of the Evangelist Wayne Blank: “Put another way, humans aren’t going to have anything left to fight about.” Following conquest, a foreign occupier would obviously want the occupied peoples to be peaceful, as this would eliminate the nuisance of having to fight off freedom-fighters. The absence of violence would allow the conquering force to effortlessly sustain its occupation.
            The events of the Second Coming of Christ are found in the Bible, including the Book of Revelation–which is the last book in the New Testament. Jesus will “judge and wage war” (Rev. 19:11), his robe will be “dipped in blood” (19:13), and he will be accompanied by “armies” (19:14) with which he will “strike down the nations” (19:15), including “the Gentiles” in general and “the nations that were opposed to him” in specific. This will result in the “utter destruction of all his enemies”. Furthermore: “in his second coming[,] he will complete their destruction, when he shall put down all opposing rule, principality, and power.”
            Once he conquers the infidels, Jesus “will rule them with an iron rod” (19:15). (loon watch.com)

             
          • kohana posted at 9:30 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            The president has no record according to this article from the American Thinker:

            September 22, 2012
            Obama's Ambition
            By Eric Homes

            After years of trying to figure out who Barack Obama is, I think I have found the solution. I've read countless stories of various theories which describe him as (1) a communist, (2) a Muslim, (3) an anarchist, (4) a New World Order proponent, (5) a narcissist, or even (6) an anti-christ.

            Though after watching his behavior the last few years and reading all I could on his background, I believe that the motivation behind Barack Obama is that he has no ambition, and what drives him is a life of leisure with wealth and no responsibility.

            Rather than a lifetime of achievements and years of toil at anything, the evidence points to a person who enjoys all the fruits given him. Some have reported that he doesn't really like being president. According to Investors Business Daily, he skips over half the daily intel meetings, he has more time on the golf course than attending economy meetings, and we also know he takes more vacations than any previous president has taken. During the most recent crisis, he spent his time in Las Vegas, on talk shows, and rubbing elbows with celebrities.

            In the study of successful people, they all have in common years of hard work, and tens of thousands of hours of practice and study, all beginning at a young age. What did Obama do during his youth? He smoked dope and complained that he didn't get more playing time during his basketball games.

            Regardless of how he was able to be accepted to all the schools he attended, what did he do while in school? He hung out with friends and accepted a vacation to Pakistan. At Columbia he was so uninvolved that no one remembers him. At Harvard he was appointed to president of the law review, where he never wrote anything. For this achievement he was given a large book advance which he spent on a long vacation to come back with nothing. Eventually he wrote a book, though the analysis of Jack Cashill indicates that he didn't actually author it. Bill Ayers is quoted as saying he wrote it.

            After graduation, he worked a little with no real achievement as a political activist. As a lawyer, he has no records and only memories of others as having his feet up on his desk all the time. He won his first couple of elections when his opponents dropped out. While in office he had the famous record of voting present. As a U.S. senator he wrote no bills, nor did he introduce any significant legislation. He spent his final two years campaigning for president. Up until this point, his greatest accomplishment was giving a speech at the Democratic Convention.

            As a president, he signed bills others wrote. He has been on date nights to NYC, golfing at Martha's Vineyard, and vacations to Europe and Hawaii. He shuns meetings with other world leaders, while his biggest summit was settling the differences between a policeman and a college professor.

            From all the times I have seen him speak off the cuff, I speculate that Obama really doesn't know much because he doesn't put in the homework to learn. His 2008 campaign speeches about reforming health care are elementary; his fix for the energy crisis -- namely, that everyone add air to his or her tires -- borders on stupidity. He quickly weighs in on the Cambridge police or the Trayvon Martin case, because these are issues on the TV news. He changes his mind on important social issues not by reading legal reviews, but rather by watching cheap TV shows. Yet he seems so uninformed about history and world events.

            Of course, 57 states, breathalyzers, Navy corpse-men, the Austrian language, and bowing to foreign heads of states are all famous gaffes; they reveal a pattern -- Obama doesn't care to know or study. He smugly quipped that he already knew the difference between a Shiite and Sunni before he was assigned to his committee in the Senate. It as if he was saying, "I'm so smart already that I don't need to learn anything."

            Granted, he is a millionaire, though mostly from royalties from a book he did not write. He received a sweetheart real estate deal from someone who would later be a convicted felon. Lately, World Net Daily is reporting that Obama is shopping for a mansion that someone else will buy for him in Hawaii.

            For all he is credited or blamed for, future history most likely will reveal that Obama was just a puppet for others. This is his ambition: live like a king, and never work.


            Page Printed from: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/../2012/09/obamas_ambition.html at September 22, 2012 - 10:25:48 AM CDT

             
          • Rob123 posted at 7:28 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6490

            HTC: "The Great Society has cost us over 17 TRILLION dollars; without it, there wouldn't be a national debt."

            As you know, one can say the same thing but replace 'Great Society' with 'Dept. of Defense' and 'Off-book' wars.

             
          • bill39 posted at 7:21 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            Frank: Make no mistake — democracy is mob rule, and it was just such a mob that brutally killed the ambassador and his three colleagues — a mob no doubt spurred to action by Islamic extremists — a mob that no doubt was coordinated with the mob in Egypt that raised an Islamic flag above the U.S. embassy in Cairo — a mob that represented the underlying hatred for all Americans that is expressed regularly by millions of Arabs and Muslims.

            Seems no one here can make an argument against you Frank.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:12 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            A Muhammad cartoon a day
            By Daniel Pipes
            September 21, 2012

            When Salman Rushdie mocked Islamic sanctities in his magical 1989 realist novel “The Satanic Verses,” Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini did something shockingly original: He issued a death edict on Rushdie and all those connected to the production of his book. By doing this, Khomeini sought to impose Islamic mores and laws on the West. We don’t insult the prophet, he effectively said, and neither can you.

            That started a trend of condemning those in the West deemed anti-Islamic that persists to this day. Again and again, when Westerners are perceived as denigrating Muhammad, the Koran, or Islam, Islamists demonstrate, riot or kill.

            Khomeini’s edict also had the unexpected side effect of empowering individuals – Western and Islamist alike – to drive their countries’ policies.

            Fleming Rose, a newspaper editor, created the greatest crisis for Denmark since World War II by publishing 12 cartoons depicting Muhammad. Florida pastor Terry Jones sowed panic among American commanders in Afghanistan by threatening to burn a Koran. Nakoula Basseley Nakoula and friends prompted a crisis in U.S.-Egyptian relations with his amateurish "Innocence of Muslims" video. And the satirical French weekly Charlie Hebdo caused the French government to temporarily shut down diplomatic missions in 20 countries. Plans by the German satirical magazine Titanic to publish attacks on Muhammad likewise led German missions to be closed.

            On the Islamist side, an individual or group took one of these perceived offenses and turned it into a reason to riot. Khomeini did this with “The Satanic Verses.” Ahmad Abu Laban did likewise with the Danish cartoons. Afghan President Hamid Karzai goaded his people to riot over burned Korans by American soldiers, and Egyptian preacher Khaled Abdullah turned “Innocence of Muslims” into an international event.

            Any Westerner can now buy a Koran for a dollar and burn it, while any Muslim with a platform can transform that act into a fighting offense. As passions rise on both sides of the divide, Western provocateurs and Islamist hotheads have found each other, as confrontations occur with increasing frequency.

            Which prompts this question: What would happen if publishers and managers of major media outlets reached a consensus -- “Enough of this intimidation, we will publish the most famous Danish Muhammad cartoon every day, until the Islamists tire out and no longer riot”? What would happen if Korans were recurrently burned?

            Would repetition inspire institutionalization, generate ever-more outraged responses, and offer a vehicle for Islamists to ride to greater power? Or would it lead to routinization, to a wearing out of Islamists, and a realization that violence is counter-productive to their cause?

            I predict the latter. A Muhammad cartoon published each day, or Koranic desecrations on a quasi-regular basis, would make it harder for Islamists to mobilize Muslim mobs. Westerners could then once again treat Islam as they do other religions – freely, to criticize without fear. That would demonstrate to Islamists that Westerners will not capitulate, that they reject Islamic law, that they are ready to stand up for their values.

            So, this is my plea to all Western editors and producers: Display the Muhammad cartoon daily, until the Islamists become accustomed to the fact that we turn sacred cows into hamburger.

            Daniel Pipes is president of the Middle East Forum

             
          • bill39 posted at 7:05 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            HTC: The collusion of the liberal media with his campaign is positively shameful!

            Anyone could see the collusion back in the early 70's when everything went to he//. If they looked.

            Montana Jim: I have no idea how the country will ever get back to the days when there actually was compromise in Congress.

            By voting for patriotic American candidates.

            Montana Jim: Mike Mansfield from Montana was a hero..........

            Ya, to democrats.

            Montana Jim: I guess I think that people who post all the time trying to convince people that they are the only ones that know the truth, are really trying to convince themselves.

            Since you are a democrat and dont know the first thing about republicans you must be talking about the lefties posts.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:45 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            MontanaJim72: Mike Mansfield from Montana was a hero at it as Senate Majority leader in the Senate in the sixties. He made compromises happen.

            HTC: The road to he// is paved with compromise, and LBJ's "Great Society", which Mansfield skillfully shepherded into existence, is living proof of that. The Great Society has cost us over 17 TRILLION dollars; without it, there wouldn't be a national debt. But its unfunded liabilities amount to a crushing 200 TRILLION DOLLARS which can't possibly be met, and attempting to do so will destroy our economy and enslave future generations to a life of misery trying to meet those obligations.

            Above all else, a politician should be judged by his legacy, NOT his former popularity, and Mansfield's legacy (the nanny state) is one of debt, economic destruction and the mortgaging of our childrens' futures.

             
          • Rob123 posted at 6:32 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            Rob123 Posts: 6490

            nh0828: It baffles me that our culture degrades education so much.

            I just returned from the Oregon Coast, and a visit with my son, a fellow Lewis and Clark grad like you. Don't let HTC's Right Wing quasi-Libertarian view of reality, coupled with way too much time on his semi-retired hands, over influence you. He's an Engineer for gGod's sake! What do you expect? [wink]

            I took the long way to and from the Oregon Coast, with only about 50 miles on Interstate Highways. It was good to see rural country, especially Central Oregon. From Enterprise, Or. to Lewiston, Id is spectacular! I think we will be ok, although I wish Montana could have rural, secondary highways as good as Oregon's!

             
          • MontanaJim72 posted at 2:27 am on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

            MontanaJim72 Posts: 223

            I guess I think that people who post all the time trying to convince people that they are the only ones that know the truth, are really trying to convince themselves. The older I get, the more I realize that there might be a good point on both sides of the political spectrum. I have no idea how the country will ever get back to the days when there actually was compromise in Congress. Mike Mansfield from Montana was a hero at it as Senate Majority leader in the Senate in the sixties. He made compromises happen. I doubt that kind of leadership will ever happen again. It's sad that both Democrat and Republican parties care only about their party, and not the country as a whole.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:05 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: the bigots have spoken.

            HTC: That's Big It to you, little man.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:04 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            nh0828: It baffles me that our culture degrades education so much.

            HTC: Really? I haven't noticed anything like that except perhaps among some in the African-American and Hispanic communities; otherwise, if anything, I've observed an over-emphasis on college education for everyone, whether it truly makes sense for everyone or not. As a result, we have 3 million semi-skilled and skilled blue collar jobs going unfilled because we've eliminated "shop" classes in our public high schools and the trades in many of our community colleges.

            nh0828: The point that I'm trying to get across to you is that it is an unbalanced equation in Israel's favor. The IDF is one of the best-equpped and best-trained militaries in the world, and is supported by American funds and intelligence. Palestinian militant groups are poorly trained militias using antiquated weapons systems, and doing a poor job of it.

            HTC: On the surface, the Palestinian terrorists' behavior would seem to be profoundly stupid if not suicidal, wouldn't it?

            But, clearly that's not the case because they count upon a measured response from the far more civilized Israelis who value ALL life far more than they do. And just in case the Israelis were tempted to turn the Gaza into glass, as we would demand of our own government if we were in their situation, they know they can count on the U.S. and the U.N. to perpetually demand restraint on Israel's part as the 'civilized' world continues to make the Israelis out to be the bad guys.

            The Palestinians must be laughing their azzes off at our profound stupidity and culpability, especially since they've been able to keep us playing their evil game for decades as they themselves have resisted every sincere effort to affect a permanent, peaceful two-state solution.

            They simply don't want a two-state solution - they want a ONE state solution with the only state remaining being Palestine. Only those who are incapable of learning the lessons of history would still believe, after nearly 70 years of failure to secure a two state solution accompanied by non-stop terrorism against the Israelis, that the Palestinians really want peaceful coexistence with Israel.

            nh0828: When their [Israel's] modern jets fly over packed civilian centers like Gaza City (where were the people supposed to run to, kohana? it's a prison), there is no escape--only prayer.

            HTC: There is only prayer? There is another alternative: They could simply quit voting and reelecting terrorists into power within their own government and quit giving them sanctuary. Either they're incredibly stupid and that's never occurred to them, or they support the terrorists.

            nh0828: Yes, I have. Have you? I would ALMOST believe it if you said you did, because as much as I disagree with most of your opinions I think that you are more likely than most to back them up with some research.

            HTC: Almost? Well, thank you for the backhanded compliment. The fact is that I have read and studied English translations of the Quran and therefore I know that there is no comparison between Christ's message of love and forgiveness and the Quran's message of subjugation of the entire world under Sharia law and by whatever means is required to effect its universality.

            You should know that it encourages direct lying and other deceptions of the infidel and infiltration of the infidel's towns, cities, country and government until they represent a mighty political and even 'military' force. The whole "religion of peace" charade is part of that plan of deception.

            nh0828: Even more important than that, though, is that I think I can safely say that I'm the only person here with any real experience in the region.

            HTC: More proof that safety is an illusion as I and my wife both have "real experience" in the region and with the people as well. Remember what they say about assumptions?

            There is a BIG difference between educated, financially well-off Muslims and the other 80% who largely support what many are wrongly calling "radical Islam." Perhaps you were befriended primarily by the better educated, more affluent Muslims and didn't get out into the rural areas and smaller towns and villages much?

            Those "moderate" Muslims are like many Catholics who pick and choose what they want to accept of long-established Church doctrine; but one normally wouldn't call more traditional, orthodox Catholics "radical Catholics" any more than traditional, orthodox Muslims should be called "radical Islamists."

            P.S. I'd love to hear your thoughts about the Turkish PM's 'moderate' comments I posted earlier.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:04 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Things aren't "done" yet it seems....


            Libyans storm Ansar Al-Shariah compound in backlash after attack on US Consulate

            Published September 21, 2012

            Associated Press


            BENGHAZI, Libya – Hundreds of protesters angry over last week's killing of the U.S. ambassador to Libya stormed the compound of the Islamic extremist militia suspected in the attack, evicting militiamen and setting fire to their building Friday.

            In an unprecedented show of public anger at Libya's rampant militias, the crowd overwhelmed the compound of the Ansar Al-Shariah Brigade in the center of the eastern city of Benghazi.

            Ansar Al-Shariah fighters initially fired in the air to disperse the crowd, but eventually abandoned the site with their weapons and vehicles after it was overrun by waves of protesters shouting "No to militias."

            "I don't want to see armed men wearing Afghani-style clothes stopping me in the street to give me orders, I only want to see people in uniform," said Omar Mohammed, a university student who took part in the takeover of the site, which protesters said was done in support of the army and police.

            No deaths were reported in the incident, which came after tens of thousands marched in Benghazi against armed militias. One vehicle was also burned at the compound.

            Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/21/libyans-storm-ansar-al-sharia-compound-in-backlash-attack-on-us-consulate/#ixzz27ATgVLC5

            Very lengthy, but detailed

             
          • Bronco posted at 8:15 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            nh, the bigots have spoken.

             
          • bill39 posted at 8:05 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            NH: Why are so many people instantly distrustful of someone who is a specialist in a field,

            I mistrust you because you are a liberal, not because of your higher education, .

            NH: That's backwards--knowledge is gained to be shared, and it is close-minded (not to mention says a lot about a person's intelligence) to disregard someone's statements based on the fact that they've actually studied a subject.

            You seem to know so much that just isnt so. I mistrust you because you are a liberal. . Got it yet.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 6:06 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            kohana posted at 4:42 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012

            You'll notice he dodged my challenge in regard to the "Religion of Peace" website statistics on Muslim terrorist attacks. Too much reality there.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 6:04 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            What a surprise...........!!!

            not.

            U.S. Distrust in Media Hits New High
            Fewer Americans closely following political news now than in previous election years
            by Lymari Morales

            WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Americans' distrust in the media hit a new high this year, with 60% saying they have little or no trust in the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly. Distrust is up from the past few years, when Americans were already more negative about the media than they had been in years prior to 2004.

            http://www.gallup.com/poll/157589/distrust-media-hits-new-high.aspx

             
          • kohana posted at 4:42 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            nh: Come back with your Pollyanna views when the Muslim b a s t a r d s aren't attacking and tearing our embassies apart. The reason most of the adults on this board condemn Islam is because we have studied it in depth, and we also have M.E. friends and relatives. Islam is not a religion, and the Jews stopped with the cave age codes long before the time of Jesus. Jesus didn't teach any of it either. So don't use what it says in the bible as an argument pro Islam. It won't work, and frankly I don't care what a Muslim thinks.

            What they say and do is enough. Saying they are trying to destroy Israel, and lobbing rockets at a much mightier army is plain stupid. So your argument is: because Israel has a stronger and better equipped army, they should do nothing because the idiots lob bomb at them? Frankly, I wouldn't be a bit bothered if the IDF turned Gaza into glass. Maybe you would like to go live in Gaza, where the people are so peaceful and loving. Oh, while you are at it, maybe you can console Daniel Pearl's parents. If you don't know about him, he was a journalist that the Muslims beheaded and posted it to "youtube." Have you read any newspapers lately? "Death to America" is what they are screaming.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 2:17 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            The History of US and Russian Open Air Biological Weapons Testing

            biological weapons testing

            In 1977, the U.S. Army conducted a full review of it’s biological warfare program. The report was published on February 24 of that year, and detailed the Army’s role in Biological Warfare research for review by Congress. (1)

            Since the U.S. Army was in charge of the work done at Fort Detrick in Maryland, the report provided a great deal of information about the stockpile of biological agents produced by the United States there.

            Many U.S. citizens are not only unaware of the sheer volume of deadly diseases and germ agents produced by the United States, but they are also unaware of the often careless open-air testing that the military conducted over populated civilian centers.

            The author of the report made a concerted effort to downplay the ethics of the biological warfare program by asking readers to take the beliefs, politics and culture of the time period into account.

            MORE AT: http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/09/us-russian-biological-weapons-testing/

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 12:50 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            NH: "Maturity is a funny thing."

            You won't be laughing as much when you finally get some.

             
          • nh0828 posted at 11:15 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            nh0828 Posts: 249

            bill39: "So... you are a highly educated liberal. Thanks for the info. As if I needed it."
            It baffles me that our culture degrades education so much. Why are so many people instantly distrustful of someone who is a specialist in a field, but happy to quote whatever a website or TV pundit says as long as it aligns with their personal prejudices? That's backwards--knowledge is gained to be shared, and it is close-minded (not to mention says a lot about a person's intelligence) to disregard someone's statements based on the fact that they've actually studied a subject.

            kohana and pete:
            Yes, I was speaking specifically to rocket deaths in Israel from Palestinian militant groups, as those were the numbers that kohana introduced. I am very aware that there is other violence as well, and I don't condone any of it. Look, I think you came ready to argue with someone who is justifying Palestinian attacks on civilians, and that's not me. As I said, any deaths are too many. The point that I'm trying to get across to you is that it is an unbalanced equation in Israel's favor. The IDF is one of the best-equpped and best-trained militaries in the world, and is supported by American funds and intelligence. Palestinian militant groups are poorly trained militias using antiquated weapons systems, and doing a poor job of it. If we look at how much one threatens the other, there is no comparison. Israeli civilians have bomb shelters to duck into when the alarms go off whenever an ineffective qassam rocket is coming down (which contrary to what kohana thinks is not a highly targeted weapon capable of directing at a school bus miles away--it's an ungainly explosive that gets lobbed in a general direction and usually fails to make it very far, or even detonate on impact). As I stated before, firing any ordinance towards civilians is wrong and I'm against it. However, Israel is guilty of far more death and destruction. When their modern jets fly over packed civilian centers like Gaza City (where were the people supposed to run to, kohana? it's a prison), there is no escape--only prayer.

            HTC:"Have you read the Quran and spent time studying it and its history?"
            Yes, I have. Have you? I would ALMOST believe it if you said you did, because as much as I disagree with most of your opinions I think that you are more likely than most to back them up with some research. However, I doubt that you've put the time into reading unbiased books on the subject, or the actual source document itself. As I said, this was my specialty in school, so I do actually know something about. Even more important than that, though, is that I think I can safely say that I'm the only person here with any real experience in the region. Every conservative poster here can quote websites about how hateful Muslims are all day, but in the end, how many have you actually met? I lived with and learned from Lebanese and Iraqis, Turks and Kurds, Syrians and Egyptians, Kashmiris and Saudis. I can tell you from actual first hand experience, rather than copying and pasting from a website, that you're wrong about the vast majority of Muslims and about the attitudes of the overall culture. Taken at its source material, Islam is no less legitimate or more violent than any other religion (though don't get me wrong--I find a general lack of legitimacy and a fair quantity of violence across the board with ALL religions). The Qur'an has the same kind of dangerously antiquated text as the Bible, but it's not unique in that regard. Don't forget all the crimes in the Bible for which death is the righteous punishment--taking the lord's name in vain (Lev 24:16), a woman not being a virgin on the wedding night (Deut 22:13-22), Sodomy (Lev 18 and 20), and, oh yeah--worshiping other gods (Deut 13:6-13:10, Lev 24:16). There's even a call for genocide (Deut 20:16-18). Does that mean all Christians are dangerous wackos? No, of course not. The vast majority of them live by modern standards of conduct, and obey God's laws selectively because these biblical statements are no longer societally appropriate. The same goes for the vast majority of Muslims. If that weren't true, I would have been stoned to death as an infidel long ago. Instead, I have made lasting friendships with Sunnis, Shi'as, and Alawis across the Middle East. They are real, decent human beings, and are not represented by the radical few that commit murder and other atrocities according to their own interpretations of Muslim jurisprudence. I wish it was possible for you to see that and not assume the worst about such an immense population of inherently good people.

            JB: "For what ungodly reason did you return......??"
            Excellent question. I think I'm regretting it already, and will likely post infrequently at most. I think that there are several people that will be happy to read that--my style of reasoned discourse, finding common ground, and general moderation is not necessarily a popular one around these parts. I don't find debate very enjoyable when it devolves into name-calling and low blows by people of my parents' generation. Maturity is a funny thing.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:38 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            An interesting comparison chart.......

            http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v117/rollinson/Untitled_zpsd869a944.jpg

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:32 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Obama also said this to Univision: "The fact that we haven't been able to change the tone in Washington is disappointing. The most important lesson I've learned is you can't change Washington from the inside. You can only change it from the outside."

            So, Obama is asking for another four years while admitting that he can't bring about his "change" from inside Washington. I guess he's less interested in change and more interested in continuing to live like a king at our expense.

            Fortunately, come this November, he'll get a chance to work on his "change" from the outside while the nation embraces hope for real economic change inside and outside.


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:25 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Apparently Obama missed yet another intelligence briefing because, while his press secretary Jay Carney was telling the media yesterday that it was "self-evident" that the attack on our consulate in Benghazi was a terrorist act, Obama was granting an interview to Spanish language television network Univision and still blaming the incident on the movie trailer.

            I guess "leadership from behind" also means leadership based on being behind on the facts.


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:21 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Is there really democracy in the Middle East?
            By Michael Rubin
            September 20, 2012

            As first Tunisia and then Egypt shed long-time dictators, the Obama administration drew parallels between the Arab Spring and the fall of the Berlin Wall. “In terms of moments in time when important democratic and economic transitions begin this is a comparable moment,” a senior White House aide declared on the sidelines of the May 2011 G8 Summit in Deauville, France.

            Secretary of State Hillary Clinton repeatedly described US strategy as based on America’s experience at the end of the Cold War. “We have a lot of experience around the world in helping countries that are moving to democracy, most recently after the fall of the Berlin Wall,” she told the Egyptian foreign minister last September.

            Annoyed with analysts who suggested that Islamists might hijack the uprisings, Obama directed his aides to discount parallels to Iran and focus instead on comparisons to Eastern European transitions, the “People Power” revolution in the Philippines and the growth of democracy in his boyhood home of Indonesia.

            The optimism was infectious but, in hindsight, better analogies for the Arab Spring would be to the 1789 storming of the Bastille or the 1917 abdication of the Russian tsar. In both cases, what began as popular movements against autocracy ended in dictatorship even more violent and repressive.

            The uprisings across the Middle East caught not only Arab leaders by surprise, but also the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda. Washington was caught equally flatfooted. Just days before protests erupted in Egypt, the Presidential Daily Brief—the CIA’s daily report for the president—reportedly advised Obama that Tunisia’s unrest would not spread. What began as a protest for economic opportunity and rule-of-law quickly morphed into something else. Young protestors interviewed in Cairo’s Tahrir Square may have been sincere in their demands for democracy, but it was the Muslim Brotherhood who filled the vacuum. In the name of organization, the Brotherhood sent muscle to control access to the podium. Only those whose speeches the Brotherhood approved beforehand could speak.

            The Islamist putsch continues. It is clear to everyone outside the White House spin room that the latest violence in the Middle East had less to do with a risible film produced by a California bigot, and more to do with domestic politics. “People don’t go to demonstrate and carry RPGs and automatic weapons,” Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) quipped. Nor, for that matter, do most Muslims carry Al Qaeda flags in their back pocket, on the office chance they can raise it on an embassy flagpole. When it comes to White House denials of Al Qaeda involvement, Americans now find themselves in a once unimaginable position where the Libyan government tells the truth while American leaders lie.

            In effect, last week’s violence was equivalent to Maximilien de Robespierre unleashing of the Reign of Terror in the chaos following the French Revolution, or the Bolsheviks purging the Mensheviks during the Russian Revolution. While Americans remember the November 1979 Iranian seizure of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran in the context of Ayatollah Khomeini’s hatred of America, that episode had as much to do with revolutionary radicals creating a pretext to purge competition and seize power as it did with anti-Americanism. Iranians still suffer the consequence of failure in their democratic moment. It is now clear that democracy will also evade the Arab world perhaps for decades to come.

            With an opportunity lost and a centuries-long record of failure, it is fair to ask whether democracy is even possible in the region. In the years before the Arab Spring uprising, Egyptian-American sociologist Saad Eddin Ibrahim described the autocrats and theocrats in the Middle East as mirror images of each other. While autocrats had ministries, military, and media to promote their control, the theocrats relied on the mosque to recruit and communicate. Both poles used fear of the other to recruit allies and cultivate supporters. Both had one thing in common: They could tolerate neither accountability nor democracy. When liberals and democrats emerged, they became public enemy number one to both the security services and Islamists.

            Political scientists have long struggled to define democracy. Stanford University’s Larry Diamond identifies four pillars to democracy: Choosing and replacing government through free and fair elections; active public participation; protection of the human rights; and equality of all citizens under the law.

            The late Harvard political scientist Samuel Huntington suggested that countries could only be considered democracies when they had had two consecutive, peaceful changes of government via free elections. Huntington’s approach disqualifies those like Hamas or the Muslim Brotherhood who accept the efficacy of the ballot box only so long as it works in their favor. It was this concept that Edward Djerejian, an assistant secretary of State, enunciated when, on June 2, 1992, he enunciated for the first time the American position toward Islamist parties. "While we believe in the principle of ‘one person, one vote,’” he said, but “We do not support ‘one person, one vote, one time.’”

            Under Saddam Hussein’s tyranny, one-in-six Iraqis voted with their feet and fled the country. When they settled in Europe and the United States, they had little difficulty accepting democracy. Their experience suggests that the problem remains less cultural inhibition to democracy, but rather a lack of rule-of-law.

            Alas, rather than take a no-nonsense approach to democracy, it is now the politically correct embrace of cultural equivalence and the associated willingness of diplomats to kowtow to Islamists which poisons the democratic well. In a 1996 essay, Princeton historian Bernard Lewis described how Islamists “claim that Islam itself is the only authentic democracy.” “This statement is perfectly true,” he quipped, but only if one accepts the Islamists’ own definition of the term, something which would be unrecognizable to most democrats.

            Alas, this is what American diplomats also do. When the Justice and Development Party (AKP), a Muslim Brotherhood affiliate, won elections in Turkey, American diplomats rationalized their victory as little cause for concern. Daniel Fried, assistant secretary of state for European affairs, described the AKP as “a kind of Muslim version of a Christian Democratic party,” while Secretary of State Colin Powell praised Turkey as a “Muslim democracy.”

            Today, the AKP imprisons more journalists than Russia and China, bans its opponents from parliament, and declares its goal to raise a religious generation in Turkey. To modify democracy with words like Islamic, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, socialist, or anything else simply diminishes the standard of democracy. This is a lesson Iranian know well. Studying in Iran in 1996, one of my tutors explained that she had joined the Islamic Revolution because Khomeini promised an “Islamic democracy.” “By the time I realized we got neither, but just another dictatorship,” she explained, “it was too late.”

            Obama’s desire to work through allies—“lead from behind” as one aide put it—has put another nail in the coffin of the democratic hope. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey might have been willing intermediaries, but each of those countries had at the core of their agenda Islamist empowerment. It no coincidence that in Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia, the most extreme factions now carry not only the biggest guns, but also the largest purse.

            Last February, I sat down in Kuwait City with a local professor to discuss the Arab Spring. “It’s understandable the Muslim Brotherhood won,” he said, explaining that after years in opposition they could promise constituents the world. Absent power, they need not worry about accountability. “The tragedy for democracy would be,” he continued, “if once in power American would not allow them to fail.” Alas, by compromising the pillars of democracy, tossing accountability out the window and treating American aid as an entitlement for hostile regimes, Obama is now doing just that.

            Michael Rubin is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and a senior lecturer at the Naval Postgraduate School.

             
          • kohana posted at 9:55 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            New today, Pat Condell:

            http://dotsub.com/view/72457cbc-fe18-4053-ae3f-6c7639cf4e79

            "A word to rioting Muslims"

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:26 pm on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            More proof that Dems are horrible at math:

            Solid-state lighting gets no respect
            Energy Efficiency & Technology Magazine
            Sept 20, 2012

            As we head into the season for fall colors, the big news in lighting is of a trip by a delegation of SSL stakeholders to the DoE last month, complaining that SSL gets a pittance in support from Uncle Sam compared to the money doled out by the shovel-full to wind, solar, biomass, and other renewable sources. Their claim is that SSL can deliver up to six quads of annual energy savings (that is, 1,015 btu. The world uses about 300 Quads /yr) for a 10 to 20× higher ROI than other energy investment alternatives. To sum up the Feds' response: Energy efficient lighting is already being adopted without much urging, so why does SSL need a bigger hand out? Oh well.
            -- Leland Teschler, Editor

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:59 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Well, the president and his staff are now saying that the 9/11 attack on our consulate in Bengahzi, Libya was "self-evidently" a terrorist attack and not a spontaneous act by a crowd supposedly angered by a movie trailer.

            Wow! Isn't it great having a president who only needs 9 days to catch up to his fellow American?. Maybe he could shorten that to 4 or 5 days if he keeps attending his intelligence briefings which he missed for the entire week before the attack but has started attending now that his record of attendance was made public.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:26 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            If the lamestream media did the same level of investigative research and reporting on Obama that they did on Nixon and Watergate, Obama would be so well understood as the fraud that he is that he wouldn't be able to win a race for dog catcher.

            The collusion of the liberal media with his campaign is positively shameful!

            Of course, if today's Washington Post were to do the same fine job on Obama that they did on Nixon, people like Bronco would merely dismiss it with claims that the WP was now suddently working for the GOP.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:25 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco posted at 9:56 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.


            Make up your mind. You guys are weird. I'm gonna go join Rob. See ya.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~

            Any chance you might STAY there................[thumbup]

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:19 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: Make up your mind. You guys are weird. I'm gonna go join Rob. See ya.

            HTC: You are unquestionably the most confused, self-delusional progressive I've ever met. Your mocking us over your own inability to comprehend the world around you is the icing on the cake.

            Gawd, am I glad we're not related, so I don't have to worry about OUR family tree.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:16 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            A good summary of the Examiner's report I previously referenced. There's some good, raw meat in here which you shouldn't expect the lamestream media to talk about because it makes crystal clear just what a major fraud Obama really is. Instead, they'll try to make this all about Romney and not their empty, self-serving suit who doesn't really care about the little guy after all:

            10-part report raises questions about narrative of Obama's early life
            By Doug McKelway
            September 20, 2012

            A newly published report raises questions about some established narratives in the early life of President Obama, suggesting the president's upbringing was one of privilege and not hardship.

            The Washington Examiner published a 10-part report detailing Obama's path to the White House. Some of the information appears to conflict with the narratives the Obamas and the Democratic Party have pushed, most recently at the party's convention in Charlotte.

            At the convention, Michelle Obama said they "were both raised by families who didn't have much in the way of money or material possessions."

            Examiner Executive Editor Mark Tapscott questioned that.

            "I'm sure he had a difficult childhood given the circumstances with his parents, but from a financial standpoint and social standpoint and so forth , it was not an underprivileged childhood," Tapscott said.

            The Examiner reports that the Indonesian neighborhood, Menteng, where Obama's mother and step-father raised the young Barry Soetoro was the most exclusive in Jakarta.

            Later sent to live with his grandparents in Hawaii where his grandmother was a bank vice president, Obama attended the exclusive Punahoe school. He later went on to Columbia University and Harvard Law School.

            In his first job as a Chicago community organizer, Obama rejected more lucrative offers.

            But while he worked in the city's impoverished Southside, he lived in exclusive Hyde Park.

            Of his 12 years as a lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School, Time Magazine said in 2008: "Within a few years he had become a rock star professor with hordes of devoted students." But student evaluations obtained by the Examiner tell a different story. In 2003, only a third of students recommended his courses.

            "It went steadily down in the last five or six years that he was there. He was among the lowest-ranked professors," Tapscott said.

            Nor did the future president leave any record of scholarly writings, while similarly credentialed colleagues had a prolific presence in law journals.

            "He showed up to class, he gave his lectures and he was gone," Tapscott said.

            The Examiner found sharp contrasts between Obama's memory of his legal work, and the record of it.

            In "Dreams From My Father," he wrote: "In my legal practice, I work mostly with churches and community groups, men and women who quietly built grocery stores and health clinics in the inner city, and housing for the poor."

            But a document filed with the Illinois Secretary of State shows the young lawyer represented some well-heeled clients. In one case, he represented a politically connected preacher and real estate developer, Bishop Arthur Brazier, who had failed to provide heating and running water to 15 apartments in the dead of winter. Obama's client had all the tenants forcibly removed from the building, yet paid only a $50 fine under Obama's legal counsel.

            For all of his critics on the right, community organizer Obama left many colleagues on the left disheartened, by allegedly selling out to the Chicago establishment.

            The late radical journalist Robert Fitch, who specialized in urban politics, said: "What we see is that the Chicago core of the Obama Coalition is made of blacks who've moved up by moving poor blacks out."

            D'Anna Carter, a neighborhood activist, singled out the president's closest aid, Valerie Jarrett, for criticism. Jarrett was CEO of Habitat Co., a low-income real estate firm that made millions of dollars in part by leveraging federal programs like the Low Income Housing Tax Credit with subprime lending to poor people.

            "They were never interested in poor people. They would sell poor people a bill of goods," Carter said.

            Some argue that President Obama won office on his strength as a reformer - he did vow to "fundamentally transform America." But the Examiner found as a state senator he rejected overtures to reform the Chicago machine.

            "He made it pretty clear he wasn't interested in risk-taking or challenging the Chicago machine's lock on a lot of mechanics of government in Cook County in Chicago," said one frustrated former colleague, former state Sen. Steve Rauschenberger.

            Mayor Richard J Daley -- the last of the big city bosses -- built that machine by rewarding allies with patronage positions. Today, Obama's choice of aides suggests an unbreakable bond to that machine. Closest aide Valerie Jarrett, campaign adviser David Axelrod, and former chiefs of staff Rahm Emanuel and Bill Daley all cut their political teeth in the Daley machine.

            The legendary Chicago Tribune writer Mike Royko once penned this advice to mayoral candidate Richard M. Daley, the son of the big city boss: "Reward your friends and punish your enemies." It is a phrase the president once used to describe how Latinos should think about elections.

            In a 2010 interview, Obama urged Latinos to say: "We're gonna punish our enemies and reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us."

            To that end, The Examiner says 31 Obama campaign bundlers received clean-energy loans and grants totaling more than $16 billion. The auto bailout favored the United Auto Workers -- over secured creditors -- and eight of the 10 states getting the most contracts from the stimulus program were heavily Democratic.

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/20/10-part-report-raises-questions-about-narrative-obama-early-life/print#ixzz271kIjHKx

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:05 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Seems the convention narrative about Barack's and Michelle's early life which states that they "were both raised by families who didn't have much in the way of money or material possessions" is just another big fat Obama lie. Even the community organizer, who worked in Chicago's impoverished Southside, lived in exclusive Hyde Park.

            Research also shows that he lied about much of his legal and teaching career as well.

            The Obama you don't know:

            http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama#.UFr-ZFLEWXF


             
          • Bronco posted at 9:56 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: actually defended his comments (as well he should since they're TRUE)

            JBSTONE: Oops! Turns out Romney 47% tape was 'doctored'
            HTC: What a surprise! NOT!
            --------------
            Make up your mind. You guys are weird. I'm gonna go join Rob. See ya.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:59 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            The fundraising "Obama Store" is selling an American flag with the stars replaced by the Obama Zero (which he is.) The arrogance is stunning! The message of "transformation" of America it conveys is frightening.

            It is also typical of the cult-of-personality which has always been a part of every socialist/Marxist movement; but, no doubt, Bronco already has one flying over his Hawaiian bungalow.

            http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/09/obama_store_sells_obamerican_flag.html

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:52 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            kohana: Why does Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?

            HTC: That's a very good question which they so far don't seem to be willing to answer. Not long ago, the Social Security administration purchased 174,000 rounds of .357 Sig ammunition which generated similar questions but which the SS quickly answered as being ammunition used by their own security personnel over the course of a year.

            When I was a member of law enforcement, we averaged about 1000 rounds per year per officer. Almost all of that was using in training/practice and in our periodic requalification which was required in order to carry that firearm.

            When I look at SS' purchase, it comes in at just over 800 rounds per officer, which is definitely in that ballpark; in other words, there's absolutely no grounds to question SS' answer on the matter.

            However, when I do the same calculations for the DHS, which has just under 114,000 agents/officers, I come up with 114,000,000 rounds of .40S&W for their current-issue sidearm, but they've apparently purchased nearly 4X that amount.

            They have apparently also purchased 200 million rounds of .223 ammunition even though only a small fraction of their officers are certified on the M16. Then there's the 176,000 rounds of .308 ammo which some have correctly pointed out is primarily used by our law enforcement agencies for sniping applications. That amount, however, is consistent with the number of trained snipers within federal law enforcement, so I don't see anything nefarious in it.

            But they do have some questions which they should answer on the other portions of their purchase and they aren't doing themselves any favors by refusing to talk about it.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:35 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: Romney never denied his infamous speech. He apologized for it. So very delusional, you two.

            HTC: First of all, it was not a "speech" since it was an informal answer to a donor's question.

            Secondly, he has not "apologized" but actually defended his comments (as well he should since they're TRUE), although he did indicate that they were "inelegantly stated" in that they appeared to include people he did not intend to include and who obviously don't regard themselves as vicitms and have earned their support (e.g., the elderly and veterans.)

            Romney and those present know that the tape being used by the MSM is altered and he has demanded that the person who recorded it release the entire video; of course, that individual has not and cannot afford to do so.

            Your lamestream media's efforts to turn this casual mistatement into Hiroshima for his campaign only highlights your side's desperation, dishonesty and contempt for the truth. If Obama were my guy, I'd be feeling mighty desperate as well, so I certainly understand.

            But your calling us "delusional" because we have a firm grasp of the facts while you do not is laughable. But if you weren't good for a laugh once in a while, what good would you be?

            Bronco: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2012/0919/Who-are-the-47-percent-5-jobs-held-by-people-who-pay-no-income-tax/Library-assistants

            HTC: I hope you don't use the CS Monitor for tax advice because they'd have you significantly underpaying your taxes and would be exposing you to incredible tax penalties and interest assessments.

            According to the IRS' own online tax calculator which is part of their efile system, the library assistant making the mean income they cite would actually owe $1986 in federal income taxes. The second case they cite, manicurists, would pay $1414 in federal income taxes.

            None would pay $0 as your article suggests. I didn't bother to check their last three examples because when you start out that badly on something so simple, there's no reason to believe you got the other cases correct.

            Regardless, Romney's comments about a significant portion of America being dependent on government is correct. He is also corrrect when he stated that many American's have a sense of entitlement that goes beyond the pale. Sandra Fluke, who actually spoke at the DNC, is a perfect example of that.

            But you and your fellow progressives would rather try to distract us from that ugly, vote-buying reality and somehow make this Romney's problem.

            I can't help but wonder if there's an honest bone anywhere in your body.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:10 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            When one review the CBO's analysis, it becomes obvious that the real number of middle class Americans who will be hit with ObamaCare's 'tax' will be far higher. The CBO analysis did not factor in employers dropping coverage due to its much higher costs when all of ObamaCare kicks in. That's when actuaries estimate that insurance will cost 40-50% more than today. Two surveys show that one-third of employers are considering dropping it then.

            It is fair to say that ObamaCare is the largest tax increase on the middle class in U.S. history:

            Tax penalty to hit nearly 6M uninsured people, under ObamaCare
            Published September 19, 2012 | Associated Press

            Nearly 6 million Americans -- most of them in the middle class -- will face a tax penalty for not carrying medical coverage once President Barack Obama's health care overhaul law is fully in place, congressional budget analysts said Wednesday.

            The new estimate amounts to an inconvenient fact for the administration, a reminder of what critics see as broken promises.

            The numbers from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office are significantly higher than a previous projection by the same office in 2010, shortly after the law passed.

            The earlier estimate found 4 million people would be affected. The difference -- 2 million people-- represents a 50 percent increase.

            That's still only a sliver of the population, given that more than 150 million people currently are covered by employer plans. Nonetheless, in his first campaign for the White House, Obama pledged not to raise taxes on individuals making less than $200,000 a year and couples making less than $250,000.

            And the budget office analysis found that nearly 80 percent of those who'll face the penalty would be making up to or less than five times the federal poverty level. Currently that would work out to $55,850 or less for an individual and $115,250 or less for a family of four.

            Average penalty: about $1,200 in 2016.

            "The bad news and broken promises from Obamacare just keep piling up," said Rep. Dave Camp, R-Mich., chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, who wants to repeal the law.

            There was no immediate response from the administration.

            The budget office said most of the increase in its estimate is due to changes in underlying projections about the economy, incorporating the effects of new federal legislation, as well as higher unemployment and lower wages.

            Starting in 2014, the new health care law requires virtually every legal resident of the U.S. to carry health insurance or face a tax penalty. The Supreme Court upheld Obama's law as constitutional in a 5-4 decision this summer, finding that the insurance mandate and the tax penalty enforcing it fall within the power of Congress to impose taxes. The penalty will be collected by the IRS, just like taxes.

            The budget office said the penalty will raise $6.9 billion when fully in effect in 2016.

            The new law will also provide government aid to help middle-class and low-income households afford coverage, the financial carrot that balances out the penalty.

            Nonetheless, some people might still decide to remain uninsured because they object to government mandates or because they feel they would come out ahead financially even if they have to pay the penalty. Health insurance is expensive, with employer-provided family coverage averaging nearly $15,800 a year for a family and $4,300 for a single plan.

            The Supreme Court allowed individual states to opt out of a major Medicaid expansion under the law. The Obama administration says it will exempt low-income people affected by state decisions from having to comply with the insurance mandate.

            Most Americans will not have to worry about the insurance requirement since they already have coverage through employers, government programs like Medicare or by buying their own policies.

            Many Republicans still regard the insurance mandate as unconstitutional and rue the day the Supreme Court upheld it.

            However, the idea for an individual insurance requirement comes from Republican health care plans in the 1990s.

            It's also a central element of the 2006 Massachusetts health care law signed by then-GOP Gov. Mitt Romney, now running against Obama and promising to repeal the federal law. The approach seems to have worked well in Massachusetts, with virtually all residents covered and dwindling numbers opting to pay the penalty instead.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 7:08 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2534

            Kohana - The ammunition thingy - Maybe Comrade Obama's regime is buying up all that ammo so we can't? Or - Maybe Comrade Obama is about to announce he has decided to create a (very) well armed Homeland defense force? They will be selected from the finest career welfare recipients, and wear brown shirts with Comrade Obama's newly designed American flag logo. Oh, a new rumor has surfaced - The regime has decided to create a new holiday! Yea! It will honor the best in "teleprompter design" and "teleprompter campaign speeches". Ya see? All things are possible under the rule of Comrade/King Obama.

             
          • bill39 posted at 5:51 am on Thu, Sep 20, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            Bronco I see the last post in this column has been on top for over 7 hours. Since #123 has been gone are you taking his place?

            Bronco: The U.S. has always been a Christian nation from the earliest colonial settlements. It remains a Christian nation today.

            Dont I remember your man Obamer say the USA is no longer a christian nation?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:19 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: Like many people today, I am not religious; however, I recognize other peoples' right to religious belief and practice, provided that their religion focuses primarily on personal conduct and morality, rather than on governance and control...
            ----------------------------------
            From christiananswers.net: In terms of religion, it is not a matter of "trying to make" the United States a Christian nation. The U.S. has always been a Christian nation from the earliest colonial settlements. It remains a Christian nation today. The vast majority of U.S. citizenry claim at least a nominal adherence to Christianity, and, amazingly enough, the majority of our new immigrants make a similar claim—even those from Asian countries. The U.S. was founded upon Christian principles and beliefs.

            also contributing to your fear of religion's government control: http://charlesbivona.com/christians-will-control-the-government-in-bachmanns-atheist-hell/


             
          • Bronco posted at 8:05 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            JBSTONE: Oops! Turns out Romney 47% tape was 'doctored'
            HTC: What a surprise! NOT!
            -------------------------
            Gawd, what a couple of idiots. Romney never denied his infamous speech. He apologized for it. So very delusional, you two.

            Here, chew on this:

            http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2012/0919/Who-are-the-47-percent-5-jobs-held-by-people-who-pay-no-income-tax/Library-assistants

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:07 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            JBSTONE: Oops! Turns out Romney 47% tape was 'doctored'

            HTC: What a surprise! NOT!

            People who were there have come forward and stated that what Romney actually said was that the 47% who don't pay taxes were not going to be drawn into the GOP tent by advocating the lowering of tax rates. He did make comments about the Democrats buying the votes of many of those people, but that's hardly news to anyone who hasn't been asleep since LBJ was president.

            Of course, this won't cause these liars to drop their lies. Their guy is a flaming loser and they're desperate; so, they'll keep repeating these lies ad nauseum until election day and probably beyond (They're still repeating lies about Bush 4 years since he was president.)

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:35 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: What's the difference between religion and 'legitimate' religion?

            HTC: That's a fair question, Bronco.

            Like many people today, I am not religious; however, I recognize other peoples' right to religious belief and practice, provided that their religion focuses primarily on personal conduct and morality, rather than on governance and control, as is the case with Islam. A "legitimate" religion also must not attempt to replace constitutional government, infringe on other's constitutional rights nor preach/advocate violence.

            The Christian message as found in the New Testament meets this definition while Islam, particularly as found in its book, the Quran, does not satisfy these requirements.

            Like you, I marvel at some of the things that the religious preach and believe; however, unlike you, I feel no need to mock them nor do I feel bothered or threatened by them in any way. Some of the nicest people I've ever known and some of my dearest family members are deeply religious, but we respect each other's right to embrace our own beliefs and neither side perpetually seeks to convince the other.

            That is real tolerance.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 6:19 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Reagan-Dem posted at 12:47 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012

            Your needle's stuck again; but, that's nothing new for you progressives.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 3:42 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Catburt28 posted at 3:16 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.


            Cite the statute.............folks are generally NOT "copying" for the sake of monetary gain nor plagiarizing the source.

            Many sites have gone to a policy whereby if you DO copy even a part of an article, it automatically tacks on "read more at" with the URL of the item in question.

            Direct your inquiry to Frank.

             
          • kohana posted at 3:38 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Most of the stuff I post here come in my mail box, and they tell me I can forward it or post it providing it contains the author and the source. If Frank is concerned, he can delete an entire post. He's a big boy and can protect himself. The problem with this group, they won't read it if they have to hunt for it. Also, my computer won't link with some of the links. I prefer having the article here where I can read it now, not leave the page, go read somewhere else where it may or may not be, then come back and wade through 10 posts since I've left to respond.

             
          • Catburt28 posted at 3:16 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Catburt28 Posts: 23

            Um...I'd just like to point out that by copying and pasting entire articles, some folks are violating copyright laws.
            I know that it's kinda stupid, but it is the current interpretation of our copyright laws.

            Please just post a link and maybe pick out a few pertinent quotes.
            Otherwise, DIL might get into legal trouble and then we'd have one less local news resource.

             
          • kohana posted at 2:48 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            This article is worrisome.

            Why does Homeland Security need 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition?
            Lee DeCovnick

            The Department of Homeland Security has purchased 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition- that is not a typo -- during the last six months. This includes 450 million rounds of .40 hollow point, 200 million rounds of .223 rifle ammunition, and 176,000 rounds of .308 168-grain hollow point boat tail (HPBT) that is used almost exclusively as ammo for sniper rifles.

            From beforeitsnews.com we read:

            Why is everyone all up in arms about the recent purchase by Homeland security of 1.4 Billion rounds of ammunition?

            Our undeclared Foreign War in Iraq Consumes about 70,000,000 (70 Million) Rounds of Ammunition Each Year, which would take about 20 years to consume 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition ordered by the Department of Homeland Security alone, not including all the ammunition ordered by the weather service, Social Security, etc!
            20 Years To Use All 1.4 Billion Rounds Of This Ammo?

            Is the Department of Homeland security to protect us from foreign terrorists, or to protect the central government from the American people?

            Read the entire chilling article. Avoid any political discussions about Obama's infamous 2008 quote, lest your blood pressure dangerously rise.

            "We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

            Let's put these DHS numbers in perspective. An Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyer displaces (weighs) 9,300 tons. 1.4 billion rounds weigh around 28,000 tons, three destroyers' worth, so to speak. It takes over 1,200 18-wheel trucks to move that much ammunition. That's the equivalent to a line of single trailer trucks, parked end to end, almost 14 miles long.

            There are 314 million Americans, men, women and children living in the United States this morning. This year alone, DHS has purchased four rounds for each and every American. We don't know how much more ammo the DHS may have accumulated during the preceding 36 months of the Obama Administration. This enormous DHS stockpile supplements the ammunition already held by the US Armed Forces, the National Guard, hundreds of local and state police departments, plus other Federal law enforcement agencies such as the ATF, Secret Service, FBI, TSA and the US Marshals Service.

            Why did DHS purchase 28,000 tons of ammunition? Why did DHS purchase almost half a billion rounds of hollow point ammunition, banned by the Hague Convention of 1899 for use in international warfare, that is carefully designed to kill it intended targets? Americans have no good answers to these questions since the DHS is now refusing to respond to media inquires on the subject. Pull back the curtain of silence by asking your Congressmen and Senators these questions.

            These huge inventories are extremely troubling from the standpoint of a free society. DHS and other Federal governmental agencies will be much less inclined to ever use this ammunition as long as Americans citizens stand firm in supporting our Second Amendment rights to bear arms. We must never forget that tyrants throughout modern history (Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin and Mao) always disarmed their opponents before rounding them up and sending them to the killing fields.

            We must never forget.

            48 days until Election Day.

            Page Printed from: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/09/why_does_homeland_security_need_14_billion_rounds_of_ammunition.html at September 19, 2012 - 03:40:53 PM CDT

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 2:19 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Oops! Turns out Romney 47% tape was 'doctored'
            Thomas Lifson

            We can take it from the mainstream media themselves that when embarrassing tapes turn out to be missing any portion, they are "doctored" and therefore discredited. By this standard, the tape released of Mitt Romney discussing the 47% -- considered a fatal gaffe by the progs -- must be discarded.

            It turns out that despite claims by Mother Jones that the tapes were presented in full, there is an obvious gap in the recordings. Benny Johnson writes in The Blaze: about the videos posted on the MJ site:

            [Romney]"We do all these polls - I find it amazing. We poll all these people to see where you stand in the polls but 45 percent of the people vote for the Republicans and 48 or 49-,"

            This is where the first part of the video cuts out.

            Part two picks up seemingly on a completely different subject: China.

            "...about twice as much as China, not 10 times as much like is reported. And we have responsibility for the whole world, they're only focused on one little area of the world, the south china sea..."

            The topics nor the pick up points in the sentence are the same in the two videos. Romney himself claimed this video was edited and called for "the person who has the video would put out the full material."

            Mother Jones writes that the cries of selectively editing were "not true" and that Romney's comments "were shown in full."

            Back in 1992, when embarrassing tapes emerged of conversations between then-presidential candidate Bill Clinton Gennifer Flowers, Anthony Pellicano, touted as an expert on tapes, declared them "doctored" because portions were missing. This enabled the mainstream media to dismiss the tapes from the national conversation.

            More recently, the progressives worked themselves into a frenzy hitting Breitbart over publishing an incomplete recording of Shirley Sherrod. So they are on record decrying the practices of presenting less than full, unedited tapes.

            Sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.

            Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/09/oops_turns_out_romney_47_tape_was_doctored.html#ixzz26wtddLMD

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 2:09 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            nh0828 posted at 7:06 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            For what ungodly reason did you return......???

            Seeing as things are all hunky dory out in Islamaland, go to this site and then apply your Pollyanna thinking to the statistics there...........I can hardly wait:

            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

             
          • Bronco posted at 2:07 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: I've long been clear that I do not regard Islam to be a legitimate religion.
            -----------------------------------
            What's the difference between religion and 'legitimate' religion? I get nervous when you Conservatives use 'legitimate' to quantify 'stock language' like religion and rape.

             
          • bill39 posted at 1:17 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            Robot #123 must be down for repairs, like maybe a new head. Hope the programmers get it right this time. You are overdue for repairs bronko, as are other robots for the left.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 12:59 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2534

            Bronco - you might want to look at the democrats in congress to find out who are the wealthiest. And - It isn't a crime to become wealthy, (at least not yet), smart people do it all the time.

             
          • Reagan-Dem posted at 12:47 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Reagan-Dem Posts: 21

            HTC Facts like the bridge closures forcing trucks on long detours, and Dems controlled Congress for first two years of Obama's term?

             
          • kohana posted at 12:29 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            HighTechCowboy posted at 11:52 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012

            For some strange reason, I don't think the empty suit sitting in the empty chair in OUR White House is intelligent enough to figure all that out. Wonder who precisely is pulling his strings. Pretty sure there can only be one real puppet master. Maybe he has two? Would that be why he flip-flops around so much?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:12 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: Like wealthy Republicans?

            HTC: So typical of your 'argument' style: ad hominem attack after attack. The only variation we get is when you occasionally post some factless delusional piece from another clueless progressive.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:11 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: So, this week, you're on the other side of the fence.

            HTC: I've long been clear that I do not regard Islam to be a legitimate religion. It is more of a violent system of control and government of the ignorant masses than anything else. It was created to bring order to a chaotic 8th century world and it should have died there.

            Do try to keep up.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:05 pm on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            mooseberryinn: I'd like to see a National Sales tax, no income tax....

            HTC: That or a flat tax will never happen as long as there are Democrats. There's simply no way for them to buy votes with those kinds of tax systems.

            Replacement of the current progressive income tax system with either of those systems will force the 60% of the country who currenlty pay only 3% of the income taxes to finally pay their fair share. Once they're also paying for Democratic tax-and-spend programs, those programs will quickly end, as will the Democratic Party.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:52 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            The Declaration of Dependence of the United State and Its Colonies
            (Inspired by Anthony Gregory's Declaration on LewRockwell.com)

            When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one government to violently overthrow another sovereign government, and to assume via the fiat power it enjoys, a world democracy to which Presidential Edict and Congressional Acquiescence entitle it, a perfunctory acknowledgement of the opinions of the media requires that it should declare the causes which impel it to global and total dominance.

            We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men, women, corporations, unions, special interests and protected endangered species are created equal, that they are endowed by the Government with certain conditional Rights, that among these are Graft, Security, Housing, Food, Medical Care and the pursuit of Empire. — That to secure these rights, the U.S. Government is instituted among Men, deriving its overwhelming powers from the submissiveness of the governed, —That whenever any other Government or individual becomes a nuisance to its ends, it is the Right of the U.S. Government to tax, regulate and kill with impunity, and to institute new governments and laws, laying their foundations on such principles and organizing their powers in such form, as to the Mighty State shall seem most likely to effect Security and Dependence. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should grow and grow and grow; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that common people are more suited to suffer only evils that are sufferable, than to right themselves by affirming the State to which they owe their livelihood. But when a long train of benevolent government programs, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to elevate society under absolute Equality in Outcomes, it is their duty, it is their privilege, to obey such Government, and to let down their Guard for their future liberty. — Such has been the pleasant experience of America and its colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to acknowledge their System of Government. The history of the present President of the United States is a history of repeated liberations and consolidations of power, all having in direct object the establishment of absolute Freedom and Democracy over these States and the Earth. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

            He has refused his Assent to the Constitution, the most bothersome obstacle to his Brave New World.

            He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, on their own Security including border security, voting integrity and on other Issues.

            He has refused to veto any Laws for the accommodation of special interest groups.

            He has confused us all with threats of our economic destruction at the hands of our actual job creators and investors, his arguments distant from any coherency, and for the sole purpose of fatiguing if not scaring us into compliance with his measures.

            He has pestered the members of the Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with firmness his bold Health Care plan which assures the destruction of our healthcare system.

            He has given us 'stimulus' which only added greatly to our debt which will eventually crush us and has added more debt than an president before him.

            He has sought to divide our country into taxpayers and tax consumers and to make each hate the other.

            He has emboldened the Department of Justice, by encouraging his Attorney General to circumvent Judiciary powers and to prosecute those who seek to uphold the laws he will not.

            He has appointed judges who he knows will 'serve' with a contempt for the Constitution which is at least as great as his own.

            He has erected a multitude of New Offices and Czars, and sent hither swarms of Officers to improve our nation, and run the economy while stealing the wealth of those who rightfully earned it.

            He has waged war against other countries without regard for the Constitution or the War Powers Act.

            He has affected to render the Military impotent and inferior to those of other Civilizations.

            He has failed to negotiate fair trade agreements with our Trading Partners, even as they conclude agreements amongst themselves which will hurt us.

            He has aggrandized Government here, by declaring all within his Authority and waging War against Evil Conservatism and Capitalism. He has made golf, expensive vacations and White House parties more important than cabinet meetings and intelligence briefings, and has met with our Enemies while refusing to meet with our Friends. In short, he has sought to live and rule like a King at our expense.

            He has wrongfully used our monies to save the incompetent and reward financial treachery.

            He has denied us access to our own natural resources and sought to make us dependent on our trading partners for all of our needs.

            In every stage of these Liberations, Unpatriotic Detractors have Petitioned for Redress in the most belligerent terms: quoting the Constitution. Their repeated Whining has been answered only by repeated smugness and condemnation. A President whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Caesar, is fit to be the ruler of a formerly free people.

            We, therefore, the Representatives of the United states of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judgment of the President for his skill in pronouncing the word, "rectitude" as read by him from a teleprompter, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of the U.S. Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United colonies, subsidiaries, occupied territories, and states, are, and of Right ought to be utterly Dependent Slaves; that we are Absolved from all Personal Responsibility, and that all political connection between us and the Government of the United States, is and ought to be totally Supreme; and that as Dependent Slaves, we have full Obligation to levy War on personal responsibility, condemn individualism, entangle in Alliances with the Unholy U.N., obey Tariffs, and to do all other Acts and Things which Dependent Slaves must do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of our divine President, we emphatically pledge to him our Lives, our Fortunes and our unqualified Allegiance.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:15 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            nh0828: However, the thing about Hamas' rocket campaign is that it is laughably ineffective.

            HTC: "Ineffective"?

            What is the purpose of terrorism? Oh, yeah - to produce TERROR!

            Do you not think that tens of thousands of such attacks have struck terror in the hearts of the Israeli people and their children? Is a few dozen dead or wounded Israelis each year acceptable in your book? Is the hit to their economy from direct destruction as well indirectly from companies and investors being reluctant to invest in their country because of that terrorism - is that all acceptable to you as well?

            Do you not believe that if America was in their shoes, we'd have long ago demanded that our government eradicate that enemy permanently, and after at most three such attacks rather than tens of thousands?

             
          • Pete posted at 11:11 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            nh0828 posted at 7:06 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            In 2006-2007 alone, there were over 600 Palestinians killed by other Palestinians. Pretty effective.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:07 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Stewart nails it! Romney's dad was on welfare. Romney on campaign trail for seven years, introduced at the RNC, rebooted/reset/reintroduced three weeks later, but on Day One...

            http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-september-18-2012/the-millionaire-gaffemaker

            The 47% who don't pay taxes:

            Families of five earning $50K a year (cost of a dinner with Romney)
            People making less than $20K a year
            The Greatest Generation
            Our military serving in a combat zone
            Welfare recipients, like George Romney


             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:53 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: another ad hominem attack

            HTC: I've spent two years putting the facts before you without you embracing a single one of them. To continue to do so would be a grand waste of my time.

            Ad hominem attacks and simple insult is all you deserve, now that you've made it crystal clear that you are not a man of reason and substance.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:51 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            The Democratic Party’s Declaration of Dependence
            By Susan Brown
            8/7/2012

            The belief that no one owes me anything is one of the greatest gifts my hardworking, blue-collar father gave me when I was young. His words carried me through some difficult times growing up, sustained me through widowhood, years back, and helped to shape me into the person I am today.

            Once upon a time in America, and not so long ago, my dad’s can-do attitude toward life was common place, until liberals and their faithful following began to understand that immense and everlasting power could be bartered by peddling handouts in exchange for votes.

            If liberal politicians know anything, it’s human nature. If you give people things they did not earn from sources from which they did not contribute, those same people will soon become dependent on whatever you give them. Add to that a bit of Machiavellian trickery to redefine those handouts into rights, and voila! You have just created a permanent voting base.

            In truth, liberals simply rebranded the definition of what our founders meant when they scribed the words, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.” Spinning and twisting the interpretation by suggesting “unalienable rights” are tangibles like health insurance, college educations, and food stamps rather than the intangibles our founders envisioned as “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,” liberals transformed the Declaration of Independence into a Declaration of Dependence. Before long, people bought into their lies, believing they had rights to certain “entitlements” simply because they breathed.

            Sadly, these lies metastasized within today’s Democratic Party; chock full of liberals so extreme, Blue Dogs have all but disappeared. Now the entire Democratic Party platform revolves around the dangerous and devilishly un-American idea that individuals cannot achieve success without government intervention. They are dead wrong.

            That the Democratic National Convention (DNC) would ask Massachusetts Democratic Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren to speak at its national convention in September tells us all we need to know about the DNC’s vision for America. Warren’s words spoken in 2011, and so echoed in recent days by President Obama, suggesting it is impossible for Americans to attain success devoid of the federal government is an indictment on how far from the American dream they have fallen.

            Ms. Warren further suggests that successful job creators are obligated to an "underlying social contract” in order to “pay [it] forward for the next kid who comes along,” thereby ensuring future generations will never have the ability to stand on their own without the government.

            The fact that unemployment rose to 8.3 percent last week is an indictment on President Obama, Elizabeth Warren and big government Democrats who believe rights are endowed by government. The ridiculous notion that business owners didn’t build their businesses speaks to their ineptitude and explains why unemployment numbers continue to move in the wrong direction. Obviously, Ivy League school attendance and acumen are not always mutually inclusive.

            Had our founding fathers believed in entitlements over ingenuity, this “New World” would be just like the old one, which is a case study in what happens when liberals are left to themselves.

            Susan Stamper Brown's weekly column is nationally syndicated. She can be reached at writestamper@gmail.com or via her website at susan@susanstamperbrown.com.

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:48 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself

            bill39: You say you are voting for Obama, that says it all.
            If you vote for Obama, you are voting for the extremists who have taken over the democrat party.

            bill39: So... you are a highly educated liberal. Thanks for the info. As if I needed it.


            Mooseberryinn: It's the folks who have never expended the energy, or expended very little energy, in working jobs. I mean, how can these people have any pride? How can they possibly feel good about themselves knowing they're like rodents or cockroaches infesting our country?
            -------------------------
            Like wealthy Republicans?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:43 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HighTechCowboy posted at 10:25 am
            ------------------
            another ad hominem attack


            HTC: You may consider people of faith to be "backwards" but at least most of them have moral character which would be a BIG step up for you.

            HTC: Democracy is merely the vehicle by which the believers will replace strong-man dictatorship with Sharia Law, and secular tyranny with religious tyranny.
            ---------------------
            So, this week, you're on the other side of the fence.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:38 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: It's pleasant to have an experienced voice which stands for civility and tolerance.
            Bronco: She quoted Romney, you idiot!

            HTC: Obviously you're not one of those "experienced voices which stand for civility and tolerance."

            And, no, jennydoe quoted a 'rebuttal' from another progressive idiot, you idiot!

            Are you really going to argue with the IRS' own figures on this? Do you think the IRS made up that number? I mean, I know you tend to dismiss facts you don't like, but are you really going to stoop to that level this time?

            I'm glad Romney said what he did and I'm glad he's standing behind his words. This country is long overdue for having a serious discussion regarding the growing division of this country into "taxpayers" and "tax consumers." Once the percentage of tax consumers becomes the majority, this republic is lost.

            It is you progressives and the now progressive-run Democratic Party who have bought votes and power via handouts and class warfare, just as Obama is now doing in an attempt to retain hold on an office he has betrayed and does not deserve.

            Many, many in America have wanted this discussion for a very long time and it finally appears that we will have it. In the process, it will become apparent to many voters that the path of your party is the path to dependence and economic catastrophe and that the Democratic Party's platform has replaced the Declaration of Independence with a Declaration of Dependence.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:25 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco posted at 3:52 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            The horse$hit you buy into is simply amazing to the informed, rational man.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:23 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: HTC, the difference between us....

            HTC: A key difference between us is that I don't expect miracles from our president while you depend on them.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:15 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            nh0828 posted at 2:45 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            Who said this?:

            "Assimilation is a crime against humanity."

            "‘Humanity’ means Islam, Muslims. The Kuffar is the vilest of creatures (98:6). The Kuffar has to submit."

            "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers."

            "Democracy is like a bus. You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off.”

            "“There is no moderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s that.”

            "One cannot be a secularist and a Muslim at the same time. The Muslim world is waiting for Turkish people to rise up”

            Answer: Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Prime Minister of "moderate" Turkey.

            Have you read the Quran and spent time studying it and its history? If you had, you'd know that it goes well beyond other religions which only seek to define personal conduct and morality. The Quran describes a theocratic system of government as a central part of the religion and "peace" as something that will be attained ONLY when the entire planet is living under Sharia law.

            It is a "religion of peace" only in that its goal is to attain that peace promised by Allah once his followers have subjected the entire planet to Sharia Law. They will do ANYTHING to make that happen as their own Quran encourages them to do so and gives them the authority to do so.

            The Quran requires every goog Muslim to attempt to convert everyone who crosses their path; if they refuse to convert after three attempts, the good Muslim must either (1) enslave the Kuffar (kafir), (2) exact a ransom for his freedom (really just allowing him to live in their midst), or (3) kill him if he will not or cannot pay.

            The Quran makes clear that man is not meant to rule himself, as that is blasphemy to Allah. It also defines a different level of rights and justice system for Kuffars as well as for women, including Muslim women.

            The is what the prime minister meant with his democracy-as-a-bus statement: Democracy is merely the vehicle by which the believers will replace strong-man dictatorship with Sharia Law, and secular tyranny with religious tyranny.

            Democracy to them is a system where every believer gets one vote - and just one time. After electing pro-Sharia Law people and parties, the new system quickly devolves into a theocracy, exactly as we see in Iran. After that, there is only the appearance of democracy as the good people of Iran know all too well.


             
          • Pete posted at 9:46 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            RLS...I just finished Conard's book that you recommended a while back. Facinating read and challenged some of my populist misconceptions. Thanks for the recommendation. If you could point me to any additional recources that you've found instructive I'd be grateful.

             
          • bill39 posted at 7:59 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            nh0828: I graduated in 2010 after three years at my fancy-pants liberal arts college with a degree in International Relations.

            So... you are a highly educated liberal. Thanks for the info. As if I needed it.

             
          • kohana posted at 7:40 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

            Jonathan Pollard, in prison for life without even a trial, did nothing to harm the USA as he only gave information to our ally to protect them. Which under our treaty we were supposed to do. Pollard is very ill but has been refused any "humanitarian health" reasons for release. However, our state department is about to release this piece of slime who bombed the World Trade Center.

            http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/09/18/US-State-Dept-To-Considers-Releasing-Blind-Sheikh-For-Humanitarian-and-Health-Reasons

            by AWR Hawkins18 Sep 2012

            The US State Department is actively negotiating with Egyptian President Morsi's government about transferring Omar Abdel-Rahman from US custody to Egyptian custody.

            Rahman, also known as "the Blind Sheikh," is currently serving a life sentence in the US for his role in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. But Egypt is pushing for his release for "humanitarian and health" reasons.

            The Department of Justice says the possibility of release is ruled out by the fact that Rahman is serving a life sentence. But an unnamed official within the Obama administration has said the custody exchange is being considered regardless.

            Former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy believes the deal to release Rahman has already been reached by the administration, and they are just waiting until after the election to announce it. McCarthy believes this is why the DOJ so strongly ruled out Rahman's "release" but said nothing against his "transfer."
            McCarthy was lead prosecutor in Rahman's case.

             
          • bill39 posted at 7:39 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            nh0828: What a lot of people fail to understand (or willfully ignore) is that while Muslim extremism exists and there is definitely anti-American sentiment in some Arab groups, these are not the predominant viewpoints.

            So what. I'm sure there are many democrats who dont agree with Obamas wasteful spending and communist leanings but will vote for him anyway. As will the majority of muslims "allow" the extremist muslims to "carry on".

            nh0828: However, the heavy emphasis on these leads to an immense fallacy in which the views and actions of extremists are interpreted as the views and actions of over a billion Muslims worldwide.

            I have been a conservative who has been in the minority all my voting life, you sure dont need to explain that to us.

             
          • kohana posted at 7:14 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            http://www.breitbart.com/

            Ah, Mother Jones, selectively edits and/or admits it doesn’t have the full tape of Romney’s remarks. What a surprise! Sure has made for days of good media spin and distracted Americans from our embassies being attacked, burned, and destroyed around the world. All those nice people in the M.E. who chant we are Osama, and hang the Islam flags over our embassies. A rag in the 70s and not much has changed.

            “Mother Jones, the left-wing magazine that released a controversial video of Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney's remarks to a fundraiser in May, now admits that it has no full tape of what Romney said, and that its video is missing "one to two minutes" at the most important moment.”

             
          • bill39 posted at 6:43 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            bill39 Posts: 990

            bronco: I can't accept your labeling me a Progressive. I have taken several questionnaires regarding my political status and each and every one of them has put me a smidge to the left of center. Every one of them.

            You say you are voting for Obama, that says it all.
            If you vote for Obama, you are voting for the extremists who have taken over the democrat party.

            HighTechCowboy posted at 9:46 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Excellent post.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 6:18 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2534

            Oh, and one more thing - I dislike Comrade Obama's (and the regime) encouraging people to become parasites. It's as if he welcomes the fleas and cockroaches who feed on our people's work and success. Example - the "occupy" folks demanding working people give them money for doing nothing. I'm not talking about people who have paid their dues into SS, Medicare, income taxes and are now receiving some payback. It's the folks who have never expended the energy, or expended very little energy, in working jobs. I mean, how can these people have any pride? How can they possibly feel good about themselves knowing they're like rodents or cockroaches infesting our country?

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 5:32 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2534

            Some notes - Taxes - I'd like to see a National Sales tax, no income tax. Theory - those who have money buy things. More things, and pricier things than those who do not have as much money. No more X% don't pay any taxes. Would work for Montana also, IF there were NO income or property taxes. Gov't intrusion into our lives - Repulicans want less gov't intrusion, Democrats want more. Given the dismal "success" stories of swamps full of bureacrats in our federal gov't, I believe less gov't is better. Besides, big gov't sucks up big taxes just to support itself. Obama - imagines himself as a "leader", definitely has shown he is not a "team player". Romeny's record show he is a team player, and quite successful at it. Isreal - hasn't the world seen/heard the Iranian nutcases saying Isreal must cease to exist? Maybe they're too distracted listening to Comrade/King/C-O Obama?

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:04 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            kohana: I despise the statements and lies people make about Israel being a violent aggressor.
            nh0828: Here are some more numbers released by the Israeli government..
            kohana: don't use propaganda to change history.
            ------------------------------
            Ya just cain't trust nobody these days.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:59 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Yes, kohana! That pro-Muslim nh028 used propaganda...uh, from, how did he put it?
            Oh yeah...
            "Here are some more numbers released by the Israeli government that you may find of interest (http://www.scribd.com/doc/9726600/Intelligence-and-terrorism-info):"

            You're not a fanatic. Just hypersensitive, and a sucker for propaganda. Guess he gets his info from the same sewer as you do.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:55 am on Wed, Sep 19, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            SECRET OBAMA TAPE RELEASED!

            "If the voting bloc becomes as committed to the Republicans as the white voting block has in the past, why, we're in trouble as a party and, I think, as a nation.
            "Now, we don't want to use Michelle too much; people might get sick of her."


             
          • kohana posted at 8:52 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            nh0828 posted at 7:06 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            You are going to post what ever you want folks to believe, and I'm not going to continue to argue with you after this post. However, the facts are, none of those deaths had to happen, NONE. Israel even gave up Gaza to stop the rockets and the PA got Gaza lock, stock, and barrel. The Israeli army removed all Jews from their homes, forcibly to give them to the PA.

            Did the rockets stop? No, they destroyed the infrastructure the Jews left behind and put their resources into weapons, because by damn, they are going to kill off all the Jews. Don't spin your version of being a world citizen to me, especially by spinning your version of the facts on the ground in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. Your sympathies lie with the Muslims, that is fine. However, don't use propaganda to change history.

            The Israeli army did everything in their power to avoid any civilian causalities during Cast Lead, but people who put suicide vests on their children, teach them to kill Jews, don't hesitate to put their armory in hospitals, schools, and mosques, don't hesitate to use their children and women as shields. The Israeli Army warned everyone in Gaza they were going to bomb the source of the rockets and to get out of the way, even to the extent of calling the cell phones, and dropping leaflets. What other army in the world does that to avoid civilians?

            Are you really trying to tell me that during all these past 12 years that only 18 people have been killed in Israel by the Muslims? Or only 18 killed by the rockets? How about when they deliberately launch one into a school bus and only by accident there was only one child on it?

            I'm not going to write you a book, but the world has done it's dam-est to paint the Jews and Israel with their own black tar brush. Including out current piece of trash sitting in OUR White House.

            Maybe I'm wrong here and with all your education you really do not know the history of which you are claiming. If you are ignorant then forgive my rant.

             
          • nh0828 posted at 7:18 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            nh0828 Posts: 249

            Bronco, nice to see that you're still buckin'' around here too. The thing about moderates vs. extremists, in any cultural context, is that if you allow the fanatics to color you view of everyone the world becomes an untenable place. If we categorize people broadly, by things like religion or political affiliation, and then allow those large populations to be painted with the same brush as we paint the crazies at the fringes of them, then we are left with no one to play ball with. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Republicans, Democrats, and most other groups are not GENERALLY bad (well, I'm not totally sold on the GOP...kidding!).

             
          • nh0828 posted at 7:06 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            nh0828 Posts: 249

            Kohana, I appreciate you backing your statements up with some research. However, there's something very telling in that the numbers only list the number of rockets launched, and not what impact they had. Don't get me wrong--shooting ordinance off in the general direction of population centers is wrong and dangerous and I'm not condoning it. However, the thing about Hamas' rocket campaign is that it is laughably ineffective. Here are some more numbers released by the Israeli government that you may find of interest (http://www.scribd.com/doc/9726600/Intelligence-and-terrorism-info):

            "As a result of the rocket and mortar shell fire, eight people were killed in 2008, four of them during Operation Cast Lead. During that operation, 58 people were injured as a result of rocket and mortar fire, 10 of them moderately and severely (as at December 31, 2008). Also, several dozen civilians were injured as a result of the rocket fire in 2008 (prior to Operation Cast Lead), and several hundreds suffered stress-related traumas. The number of fatalities, injuries, and stress-related traumas in 2008 is added to the number of casualties in the previous years of the confrontation (2001-2007): 10 civilians were killed, 434 were wounded, and thousands of civilians suffered from anxiety, shock, and various traumas as a result of the fire.”

            You're reading that correctly--over the course of 8 years, 18 Israeli civilians were killed, about 500 were injured, and a lot of people were really stressed out.

            I abhor violence, particularly when directed at civilians. 18 deaths is 18 deaths too many. I'm sure there have been several deaths from rocket attacks in the years since those numbers were published, as well. However, it is important to keep some perspective when we talk about how much one side threatens the other. In the three week Gaza War alone, between 1100 and 1400 Palestinians were killed depending on who ask, and the argument will never end over how many of the men over 18 were militants and how many were civilians. I think we can agree that women and children are civilians though--427 were killed according to an Israeli watchdog group investigation you can read at http://www.btselem.org/download/20090909_cast_lead_fatalities_eng.pdf. Total Israeli civilian and soldier casualties? 13, including several from friendly fire. Of course, this is just in the flareup of Operation Cast Lead. There has been institutionalized violence from the IDF before and after that event that has killed many more people. What I'm saying is that this is not a balanced equation, and Israel should stop playing the victim. My personal opinion is that it is a cultural holdover from earlier times across history when Jewish people were persecuted and slaughtered. However, the unfortunate reality is that they, with their incredible military and economic power per capita, are now the oppressors,. They just can't see it because they are still so focused on their identity as victims.

            ---

            US violence across the Middle East goes a little deeper than what's obvious. We've killed a LOT of civilians in Pakistan, something that Obama is also responsible for. People in the region also have long memories, and hold us accountable for the dictators and militants that we've chosen to support over the years and have done our dirty work for us (don't forget that we supported Saddam Hussein, the Taliban, and al Qaeda when it was convenient for us to do so). But yeah, mostly it's as you say in Iraq and Afghanistan, where our wars have killed thousands and thousands of people. Their neighbors notice that, and take it personally to an extent because there are like-minded communities. Despite cultural and religious differences between the Arab nations, they have a lot of common ground and see American military force as a threat to all of them.

            ---

            In the case of Syria, this is not a situation of "Muslim" violence. It is the same kind of government vs. people violence that can (and does) occur anywhere. The fact that the vicious government slaughtering people happens to be composed of Muslims does not make it any more of a religious conflict than the fact that predominantly Christian American soldiers are fighting predominantly Muslim Afghani and Iraqi militants. Look, I'm not saying that every Muslim is a peaceful human being. Clearly, that is not the case, and to argue as such would be ludicrous. What I'm saying is that a sixth of the world's population should not be judged by the actions of a small minority. I feel like that's a reasonable assessment and approach towards being a global citizen, and I'm sorry if you disagree.

             
          • kohana posted at 5:58 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco, you are so full of it! I don't hate anyone, I despise the statements and lies people make about Israel being a violent aggressor. He/she had written a beautiful letter until the quote “When it comes to our government, they invariably point to examples of US military violence across the Middle East or support of Israeli violence against Palestinians.”

            You are welcome to hate Israel with a passion, just don't lie and twist the facts. Get your history correct. You are wrong about HTC as well but I'll let him defend himself.

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:26 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            nh0828, a word to the wise: kohana considers anyone who isn't rabidly pro-Israel to be an anti-Semite, pro-Muslim, guttersnipe. Your life experience means nothing to her. You may not draw your own first-hand conclusions no matter how deep your involvement. You may not be objective. You must hate those whom she hates or she will attack you.

            Now, HTC is another one. He'll insult your intelligence if you disagree with his worldview. And he'll do it in every post till the end of time, no matter your convictions, facts, truths, opinions...you are wrong, wrong, wrong, and an idiot. He never lets up. Only his sources are correct. Only his opinion is the truth.

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:19 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            kohana: Romney was right on and needs to keep pounding these facts until American gets it.
            ----------------
            No, he was not right; he was Right. Is JB one of the 47%? Over half of the elderly is. And many in the military. Was Romney right when he said, "All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them."
            -------------------------------------
            jennydoe: Where Are the 47% of Americans Who Pay No Income Taxes?
            HTC: I will say this about you: You do have a knack for digging up B.S. 'research.'
            ---------------------
            She quoted Romney, you idiot!

             
          • kohana posted at 4:45 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            nh0828 posted at 2:45 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            “When it comes to our government, they invariably point to examples of US military violence across the Middle East or support of Israeli violence against Palestinians.”

            Good old anti-Israel and pro-Muslim propaganda. Oh dear, you forgot to mention the 12,000 rockets and mortar shells that the Muslims have lobbed into Israel since the year 2000. You also forgot to mention the goals of those “few” radical Muslims is to wipe Israel off the face of the planet. Those poor people who live in those places you go on about have no idea, that it’s not Christians or Hindu’s lobbing those projectiles at Israel and don't understand she is defending herself.

            And US Military violence “across the Middle East” are you talking about Iraq and Afghanistan? Oh yeah, forgot about our military just wandering around the M.E. just shooting up anyone and everyone for no reason.

            You also forgot to mention Syria slaughtering it’s own, and the radicals trying to take over. Either you are really ignorant about the Islamic governments of the countries you have studied, or you are deliberately shoveling out BS. Go park yourself in Iran where you will be much happier than in a country that still has the freedom of speech.

            Get the facts here: http://www.shabak.gov.il/english/Pages/default.aspx

            The period starting at the 29th of November 2000 (the beginning of the current Intifada), paint the following picture:
            · The first Qassam rockets (the home made Palestinian rockets) were fired in 2001, targeting Israeli targets both within the Gaza Strip and beyond the Green line.
            · There have also been several cases where such rockets were fired from the West Bank into Israel such as on the 8th of March 2002 into the village of Tnuvat not an "illegal settlement"*, but rather a legal one within the green line.
            · The vast majority of these targets have been civilian targets.
            Let's see some exact figures:
            · 2001
            5 Qassam rockets within Gaza and 2 into the Green lineSum: 7 Qassam rockets.
            · 2002
            15 Qassam rockets within Gaza
            27 into the Green line (2 from the West bank, the rest Gaza)
            Sum: 42 Qassam rockets.
            · 2003
            20 Qassam rockets within Gaza and 85 into the Green line (2 from the West bank, the rest Gaza)
            Sum: 105 Qassam rockets.
            · 2004159 Qassam rockets (I didn't find specific demographics of the rockets)
            · 2005
            On the 22nd of January, the Tahadiya ("Calm" in Arabic) came into effect. This "calm" was an agreement between Israel and the PA, which was meant to bring down the amount of attacks. It didn't work. While there was a drop in the number of overall attacks, the number of Qassam rockes actually climbed:
            Up until the 15th of September 2005, the day that the Israel disengagement was finalized, 241 rockets. Following that, up until the end of 2005, another 160 rockets were fired into Israel.
            Sum: 401 Qassam rockets.
            · 2006
            In 2006, following the disengagement, Gaza became a de facto independent land under Hamas control. This could have gone two ways—either Hamas would take this opportunity to prove that they can be productive when left to manage themselves or they could take advantage of this new found freedom to intensify the armed conflict against Israel. They chose the latter. 1716 Qassam rockets were fired into Israel.
            · 2007 - 1271 Qassam rockets were fired into Israel.
            · 2008
            Israel launching its Cast Lead operation in Gaza during December, with the official goal of stopping the Qassam rocket attacks. Prior to the cease fire being called 1072 rockets were fired. During the cease fire, between the 18th of June and the 4th of November, 18 Qassam rockets were fired (mid the cease fire). Starting in the end of the cease fire and continuing up until the end of 2008, another 309 Qassam rockets were fired (during the Cast Led operation).Sum: 1399 Qassam rockets.
            · 2009
            During 2009 another 569 Qassam rockets were fired (409 during Cast Led, which ended on the 21st of January). The drop in numbers being attributed to Cast Lead.
            · 2010 - 150 Qassam rockets were fired.
            · 2011
            2011 - 147 Qassm rockets during January to April. But in May, following the Palestinians decision to make a bid for independence in September, and probably in an attempt to minimize the arguments against their bid, a vast drop in rocket fire, down to 1 rocket during May and another 4 during June. Sum:153 Qassam rockets.

            One thing to note though is that not only rockets play a part in this aspect of the terror, as in addition to these 5972 rockets, as many mortar shells have been fired at these civilian populations bringing it up to approximately 12,000 projectiles, and these number have been spread out over 10 years, creating a situation in which hundreds of thousands of civilians have been living in constant fear, having to run to their shelter several times a day (there are quite a few false alarms as well, in addition to the automatic alarms during a launch) at any time (day or night) no stop.

            · 2012
            · So far, up through August there have been 816 attacks, and an increase in Sept. but Sept isn’t over yet.

             
          • kohana posted at 4:35 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco posted at 3:52 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            Romney was right on and needs to keep pounding these facts until American gets it.

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:52 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Rebuttal to HTC's Dick Morris post

            -------------------------------------------------
            In a secretly recorded videotape from a Republican high dollar fundraiser, Mitt Romney incredulously claims that 47% of Americans don't pay taxes. That they are effectively sponging off the government and the taxpayers. And that President Obama is counting on these voters who are "dependent on government" to win reelection.

            Mitt Romney will say anything to the American people to get to the White House. He'll say anything to help himself and his rich buddies rise to power. And normally he'll say anything to hide his true disdain for most Americans.

            Here's Mitt Romney's exact, unbelievable quote:

            "There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled! to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what...These are people who pay no income tax... [M]y job is is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."

            Schools. Roads. Police. Every American depends on government. But elitists like Mitt Romney think that he and his rich buddies got wealthy despite the social goods that government provides. What's more, Mitt Romney is advancing hateful statements suggesting that most people who support President Obama do so because they are on public assistance.

            This is not only blatantly untrue. It's not merely hateful and divisive rhetoric. It's also incredibly ironic. Mitt Romney has parked millions in tax havens overseas, and has refused to come clean to the American people and release his tax returns. How hypocritical for Mitt Romney to accuse anyone, let alone nearly half of all Americans, of paying no income tax.

            In fact, even conservative columnist David Brooks is appalled by Mitt Romney's statements. He writes in the New York Times:
            The people who receive the disproportionate share of government spending are not big-government lovers. They are Republicans. They are senior citizens. They are white men with high school degrees. As Bill Galston of the Brookings Institution has noted, the people who have benefited from the entitlements explosion are middle-class workers, more so than the dependent poor.

            Mitt Romney's statement exposes the Republican presidential candidate's deeply skewed world view: anyone who is starving deserves it. Homeless people deserve it. People who are sick and can't afford health care (because people like Mitt Romney have given health insurance executives free rein to drive up the cost of healthcare for the sake of their bottom line) deserve to choose between treatment and bankruptcy.

            What Mitt Romney is saying on the campaign trail is shameful. It's often coded but in unguarded moments with his wealthy donors he reveals what he really thinks. The rich deserve the hand outs they get from government and the regular folks who pay into Social Security and Medicare are freeloading bloodsuckers.

            Well, we don't agree. Americans deserve a president who will represent the 99%, not pillage our treasury and trample on the constitution on behalf of his fellow members of the 1%.

            Becky Bond, Political Director
            CREDO Action from Working Assets

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:45 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, the difference between us after election day will be this: No matter who wins, you'll be disappointed and angry, and I'll get to say, "I told you so."

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:43 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            nh0828, welcome back! It's pleasant to have an experienced voice which stands for civility and tolerance. As I have stated many times, I am against religions that condone violence in theri dogmas. Right now those would be Christianity and Islam. Yeah, I know, I know, the moderates. But when approval is given for the sane people's interpretation of the Word of (Insert name of chosen god here), then fundamentalists and fanatics will use their own interpretation (which is always literal) to kill or suppress someone's natural rights.

             
          • nh0828 posted at 2:45 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            nh0828 Posts: 249

            For the last few years, I'd managed to forget about the DIL, its editor, and this comment page. Those were good times. Alas, on a whim, here I am again. I’m uninterested in the economic debate, but I do have a few things I’d like to say about Frank’s column.

            When I was in college, I learned a lot about the Middle East. I took courses on Arabic and Religious Studies and then studied abroad independently in Beirut, where I lived in an apartment owned by a family of Iraqi refugees. I traveled around Egypt, Turkey, and Syria, more often than not staying in the homes of locals through the Couchsurfing network. I graduated in 2010 after three years at my fancy-pants liberal arts college with a degree in International Relations. After that and a summer of working in a welding shop in Alaska, my girlfriend and I got certified to teach English as a foreign language and moved to Istanbul to work. We lived in and traveled around Turkey for nine months, then spent about seven months traveling around Nepal and India (the population of which is about 24% Muslim). Consequently, I feel more qualified than the average Caucasian American country boy to speak on the Muslim religion and Arab culture in general.

            What a lot of people fail to understand (or willfully ignore) is that while Muslim extremism exists and there is definitely anti-American sentiment in some Arab groups, these are not the predominant viewpoints. Protests, riots, flag-burnings, and people swarming embassies are eye-catching and alarming events, and deserve media attention in that they can become legitimately threatening situations (as they unfortunately did in Libya). However, the heavy emphasis on these leads to an immense fallacy in which the views and actions of extremists are interpreted as the views and actions of over a billion Muslims worldwide. This is a false and dangerous characterization, and is a similar technique of dehumanization and otherization used by all parties in conflicts like WWI and WWII, where it became reasonable to kill Japanese or Germans or Americans regardless of military status because they were all baby-killing savages that wanted to rape your daughter. Don’t get me wrong—there are Muslims that are bad people, that use their interpretation of their religion to justify violence and oppression in truly vile and horrible ways. You will never hear me apologize for that. However, these need to be placed in larger context.

            I have taught, taken classes from, worked under, lived with, stayed with, and interacted with more Muslims than I can count. I have asked many of them about their opinions of the United States, its citizens, and its government. Overwhelmingly, the response that I’ve gotten has been that they have no problem with Americans or our culture. They are not opposed to democratic precepts, they are not opposed to the freedoms that we enjoy, they are not opposed to our basic values. Many may live their lives differently according to personal preference or societal norms, but they don’t see a need to destroy us as infidels (after all, the concept of jihad is vastly different from the way it is reported in our media—the “greater jihad” is internal, a struggle to do good in one’s life regardless of the actions of others). When it comes to our government, they invariably point to examples of US military violence across the Middle East or support of Israeli violence against Palestinians. In that regard, they see Obama as an improvement over previous administrations, but no one that I talked to directed any blind worship toward him. They simply appreciate that he acknowledges their culture, has attempted (with limited success) to reach out to their governments, and is capable of differentiating between the Taliban and the average Muslim on the street in Cairo.

            So please, let’s work on our discourse a little bit. Frank paints the Muslim world with a blood-red brush of intolerance and rage, and fears that an “Islamic winter” is nigh. When people say things like that, what do they mean? Is it fear of a universal caliphate, with holy war spreading outwards from the Middle East and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard someday occupying New York? Is it Muslim immigration rates, and the way in which such outsiders are insidiously influencing our snow white culture? Is it the rise of democratically-elected Islamist governments in countries that have forced their dictators out of power? If it’s number one, welcome to the Montana Militia. Please turn off your computer and help us stockpile food and guns in the Yak, while those pesky “intellectuals” have a rational conversation based on realistic evaluations of fact. If it’s number two, welcome to America, where tribes with barter economies and various animistic religions travel the plains and forests in search of buffalo and trading partners. Oh, wait. If it’s number three, welcome back to the Cold War, where a democracy only counts if the people elect a capitalist-oriented military leader who wants to make deals for our guns, and every other democratically-elected leader needs to be deposed or assassinated in favor of somebody with more muscle and ideals that match up with our own.

            The Westboro Baptist Church, abortion-doctor murderers, and "kill 'em all and let God sort them out" types don’t represent the vast majority of Christians. Islamic militant groups don’t represent the vast majority of Muslims. Calm down, and accept that there are other religions in the world besides your own, and that this is okay. They don’t hate or fear you, and you shouldn’t hate or fear them. Coexist. Have a nice day.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:31 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Mitt Romney is right
            By Dick Morris
            Political commentator, former Clinton advisor, and Clinton's 1996 Campaign Manager
            Published September 18, 2012

            There is no sin greater in a presidential race than telling the truth. Romney is being excoriated for accurately describing the situation in America today. Here are the stats:

            *49% of all Americans pay no fed income tax

            *47% receive a check from the government of which more than half are means tested welfare checks (Medicaid, welfare, food stamps, etc.)

            *36% of all Americans of working age are either not working or looking for work.

            We must remember, however, that a great many of those who receive checks from the government have earned them. Some by their taxes over the years to Social Security and Medicare and others by paying a deeper price by service to their country.

            The benefits Romney was talking about are means tested benefits, distributed based on income. All together 100 million Americans receive such benefits (out of a total population of 308 million), these benefits include welfare, food stamps, Section 8 housing, Medicaid and other such programs.

            Generalities are always unjust. And painting with broad strokes will do many individuals an injustice. But the fact remains that our electorate is basically bifurcated into those who pay taxes and those who receive benefits.

            The danger comes not with the benefit but with the sense of entitlement. Why do so many people feel Romney will be better at improving the economy and yet still plan to vote for Obama? The answer is that they care more about preserving their entitlements than about improving the economy. They have come to rely on political action more than economic growth as the key to their solvency.

            Did Romney err in telling it like it is? It would have been better if he had made a forthright, factual statement on the issue. It looks bad for these unpleasant facts to come out in a "gotcha" moment at a videotaped private event. But the fact remains that an Obama reelection would turn the tide psychologically in America from the land of upward mobility through hard work and initiative and toward a country akin to Greece: dependent on government aid in the form of a subsidy and government handouts.

            By stating this fundamental truth, albeit off the record, Romney has done a service for which he should be praised not excoriated. It all boils down to what John Kennedy said: There are those who ask what their country can do for you, and those who ask what you can do for your country.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:05 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Obama's DOJ conspires with Media Matters to discredit media outlets and reporters critical of DOJ actions and inaction:

            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/18/emails-show-justice-working-with-media-matters-to-target-critics/

            These are definitely your kind of folks, jennydoe and Bronco.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 1:03 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2534

            Kohana - "Doctor explains Obamacare" brilliant find. Well done. But... there will still be the stupid who shout "oh yeah! I want some of that!" It's funny, but pathetic. For that glorious furball, paying off the cronies (like AARP), we can thank good old Max, (kinda reminds me of Joe Bumpus Biden) and Jon (the clown) Tester. I'll bet he still hasn't read the "law" he voted "yes" on. Now, the folks who think they're getting a bargain will be so disappointed. If obama actually is re-elected, taxes are going up, and those previously getting a free ride are going to be paying. Paying for a standard of care going down. Seniors? Too bad, we'll be rationed out long enough to die and not be a "burden" on Comrade obama's great regime. Hmm, kinda reminds me of Stalin or Mao.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:59 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: Do you ever get tired of stroking yourself?

            HTC: Do you ever get tired of publicly displaying your many inadequacies?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:31 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: HTC, spin it all you want. The figures from the social security site are spot on. They spent less than they collected.

            HTC: Social Security has been paying out more than it's been taking in since 2010; Medicare, since 2009. It's gettng worse and will continue to quickly worsen as more of the 80 million plus babyboomers retire. The 'surplus' funds collected in prior years were not invested but spent by the government on other things. Now, all SS and Medicare have to show for those stolen funds are worthless IOUs from a bankrupt government.

            Now that those programs need those funds to cover their long term and fast-growing red ink, the government has to borrow more money to honor those IOUs. When you're already borrowing $1.5T a year to cover your already excessive spending in other areas, more debt or printing of money is the last thing one needs.

            Even the Chief Actuaries for Social Security and Medicare have been sounding the alarm bells, recognizing as they do that we have little time left to do the things necessary to prevent having our economy crushed by that debt burden and a cheapened dollar.

            But you, who doesn't know his azz from a hole in the ground where economics and finance are concerned and who's admitted as much, are telling us that we should believe your B.S. liberal bloggers rather than even the government's experts.

            Then you declare that I'm 'spinning' things. Are these Actuaries also spinning things? Do you even understand what an actuary is and what they do?

            Incredible.

            This is a concept and reality so simple that my almost six year-old granddaughter gets it but you , an adult nearing his senior years, still can't master it.

            Calling you "stupid" or a "fool" or an "idiot" is an insult to stupid people, fools and idiots.

            Bronco: You'd vote for Rmoney even if he sent American jobs overseas. If Obama had done that, the Republicans and Fox News would be drooling and you know it.

            HTC: Really? Obama hasn't done it?

            Obama has done it, but you're so blinded by your hatred for all things conservative and your progressive tunnel vision that you've managed to miss every single instance of it. The following is not an exhaustive list but merely summarizes some of the highlights of Obama's "offshoring" and job-wrecking.

            After the BP oil spill, Obama sent our drilling platforms and a couple of billion dollars of our money to Brazil so that they could have good-paying oil jobs and sell their oil to us instead of developing those jobs here and becoming less dependent upon foreign oil in the process.

            Obama said he was going to create thousands of new "green energy" jobs but sent a lot of the taxpayer money for those jobs to China, Spain and other countries, creating those jobs outside our borders while increasing our trade deficits with those countries. All he built here were 20 now bankrupt companies, whose buildings and assets are being sold for pennies on the dollar, and a sweet campaign chest for himself, as those companies' CEOs were all major bundlers of his.

            Obama nixed the Keystone XL pipeline which his own State Department was about to approve, ending the possiblity of seeing here the 30.000 well-paying jobs it promised to create. The pipeline was needed because he won't approve drilling permits on federal lands, forcing us to buy from the Canadians, growing jobs there, and now forcing them to bargain with the Chinese who are willing to buy their oil, build a pipeline across their country to the port of Vancouver and subsidize those 30,000 jobs for Canadians.

            While taking credit for the recent 18% increase in oil production and exploration in this country, all of it on private lands where he couldn't stop it, Obama has simultaneously made it nearly impossible to get drilling permits on federally leased lands. But he has done everything he can to slow down that private development, from refusing permits for pipelines to get it to market, to reducing load limits on federal highways in an attempt to make it nearly impossible to truck it to market.

            Even the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies not only ended jobs for tens of thousands of Americans, but actually sent jobs and monies overseas to improve GM's and Chrysler's competitiveness in Europe and Asia. The illegal seizure of secured interests held by their bondholders and some of their creditors, which were then handed over to the unions, forced many of those businesses into bankruptcy, ending many more jobs. The loss of capital will have similar repercussions that we'll be measuring for a decade or more to come.

            Your ignorance is simply astounding but, in light of that profound ignorance, it is an insult to the rest of us for you to even think to lecture us on 'reality.'

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:09 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: When you've been schooled in advanced mathematics and statistical processing, as I have...as a scientist...as an engineer...as a former policeman...as a wealthy Silicone Valley retiree...my friends who are also geniuses like me...
            -----------------------------
            Like I said, you're a self-aggrandizing narcissist. Do you ever get tired of stroking yourself?

             
          • kohana posted at 12:05 pm on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            VIDEO: DOCTOR EXPLAINS OBAMACARE IN ONE FUNNY YET SCARY SENTENCE

            Dr. Barbara Bellar, a family practice physician in Illinois, summarizes ObamaCare in one sentence:

            We’re going to be gifted with a health care plan we are forced to purchase, and fined if we don’t, which purportedly covers at least 10 million new people without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn’t understand it, passed by a Congress that didn’t read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President who smokes, with funding administered by a Treasury chief who didn’t pay his taxes, for which we will be taxed for 4 years before any benefits take effect by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a Surgeon General who is obese, and financed by a country that’s broke.

            http://www.healthcarebs.com/2012/09/08/video-doctor-explains-obamacare-in-one-funny-yet-scary-sentence/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 11:54 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: HTC, just how many polls are wrong? All except the ones who say Rmoney is ahead.

            HTC: When you've been schooled in advanced mathematics and statistical processing, as I have, it's easy to spot polls which should be ignored because of their poor methodologies; of course, since you probably can barely handle basic addition and subtraction, and certainly not with large numbers such as those describing our national debt and unfunded liabilities, you'd have an impossible time spotting bad polling techniques.

            Making you an easy sucker for those on the left as you continue to demonstrate almost daily.

             
          • kohana posted at 11:42 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Hey! Whatever works.

            http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/09/professor_allegedly_required_students_to_sign_pledge_to_vote_for_obama_and_democrats.html

            September 18, 2012
            Professor allegedly required students to sign pledge to vote for Obama and Democrats
            Thomas Lifson
            The corruption of higher education in this country has reached the point where a professor allegedly sees nothing wrong with requiring students to sign a pledge to vote for Obama and Democrats up and down the ticket. The Blaze cites a report by Campusreform.org's Oliver Darcy:
            A college professor has been placed on leave after she allegedly forced her class to sign a pledge to vote for President Obama in the upcoming elections.

            Early last week Professor Sharon Sweet at Brevard Community College (BCC) allegedly told students to sign a pledge that reads: "I pledge to vote for President Obama and Democrats up and down the ticket."
            The pledge was printed off ofGottaVote.org, a website funded by the Obama campaign.

            University administrators said they learned about the incident late Thursday afternoon and launched an investigation, after they received a phone call from a concerned parent.
            No doubt the administrators are deeply concerned that the report has become public. This is a major scandal. But it is also evidence of a pervasive climate in academia that the only legitimate views are those of the left. To borrow a term from the racial and gender grievance industries, a "hostile environment" has been created on campus toward conservatives. That an instructor would even conceive of requiring such a pledge speaks to the pervasiveness of hostility towards conservatives.
            There should be severe consequences, if this report is true. As Darcy notes:
            Sweet's actions may have also violated Florida's election laws.
            Section 104.31, of Title IX in chapter 104, states that "no officer or employee of the state... shall... use his or her official authority or influence for the purpose of interfering with an election or nomination of officer or influencing another person's vote or affecting the result thereof."


            Read more:

            http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/09/professor_allegedly_required_students_to_sign_pledge_to_vote_for_obama_and_democrats.html#ixzz26qOk5ypz

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:16 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, just how many polls are wrong? All except the ones who say Rmoney is ahead. You need some time off. Spinning and lying and insulting people, that must be hard work...unless you've trained your whole life for it.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:13 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            "Look, Mommy. The Republicans are spinning again. Twisting, too. And squirming. They see the video, uncut, and tell you it's been edited. They tell you that 47% of Americans are losers. That includes the elderly and lots of those same military men and women protecting our country. Mommy, can you spell 'desperation'?"

            HTC, spin it all you want. The figures from the social security site are spot on. They spent less than they collected. You'd vote for Rmoney even if he sent American jobs overseas. If Obama had done that, the Republicans and Fox News would be drooling and you know it.

            Yer boy is a class bigot...just like you.

             
          • Rebel Rouser posted at 10:34 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Rebel Rouser Posts: 1535

            Put your money where your mouth is:

            http://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/contract/?contractId=743474

            Has "Obameramadingdong" (JB quote) at 67.5% Romkneejerk @ 32.7

             
          • jennydoe posted at 10:16 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            JEB tells me, "just shut up now"

            HTC tells me, "please stop posting at all" (thanks for at least being polite)
            _______
            did I hit some nerves? oh boo hoo boo boo baby.
            I apologize, go ahead and vote for whom ever you want to. Believe the only polls you want.
            Post political spectrum quizzes, then berate what other posters spectrums are.
            Tear me apart because you can't get my sources right. Vote for the man who will tell you anything you want to hear. Post your propanda.
            love and winks, jenny.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:11 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydoe: Where Are the 47% of Americans Who Pay No Income Taxes?

            HTC: I will say this about you: You do have a knack for digging up B.S. 'research.'

            It is pure silliness to blame Reagan or GOP tax policies for the large percentage of Americans who pay no taxes, especially when most of them receive some kind of public assistance/entitlements which clearly indicates their modest financial circumstances.

            Poverty has been dramatically on the rise during Obama's presidency. When Obama was sworn into office, 33 million households depended on food stamps to help feed themselves. Now it's 47 million households, an increase of 42%! Gas prices have doubled under Obama, food prices have soared, as have tuition costs, and half of all college grads can't find work in their chosen field.

            Unemployment has remained above 8% for 3.5 years, credit is still largely frozen, and people are still losing their homes. Home prices have even begun a new decline in many parts of the country.

            Your messiah is a complete failure and is helping to turn this nation into a third world country. Why dummies like you can't see that is beyond the ability of rational people to understand.


            You swallow crap like pablum as long as it fits your twisted progressive view of the world.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 10:02 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            While Fox News trys to blame MSM (which they really are) for trying to help President Obama get re-elected and downplay Rmoney's secrect highbucks pact others are concerned. And, what, by the way does he say in public? Hey, anybody think we should call the rightwingers Suckers?

            ...............Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the executive committee of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, called Romney's comments "dangerous" Tuesday.

            "He seems to think of himself as a mind reader since he claims to know what Palestinian intentions are," Ashrawi said. "It seems to me it is about time that he stops pandering to the Israeli lobby and funders by selling out Palestinian rights and by destroying the chances of peace in the region.

            "Such statements are dangerous and could be irreparable damage to American credability and standings not just in the Middle East but throughout the world," Ashrawi added................

            ........In public, Romney has declared support for the two-state solution, including in an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer in July.

            "The decision as to where the borders would be, as we move to a two-state solution, which I support, that's a decision on borders that will be worked out by Israelis and the Palestinians," Romney told Blitzer in the interview, which was taped as the candidate was visiting Jerusalem as part of a three-country foreign swing. "I hope that's a process which is ongoing and ultimately successful. But as to the exact location of borders, that is something I will leave that to the negotiating parties themselves."

            http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/18/in-new-tape-romney-casts-doubt-on-peace-in-israel/?hpt=po_c1

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:00 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco posted at 7:07 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            The conservatives (elderly, veterans, etc.) who might be within that 47% figure that Romney used won't take offense at his statement. They know that he's referring to the welfare types, not them. Your efforts to convince them otherwise are futile and only give us more opportunities to point out how desperate and disgusting your side really is.

            So keep up the attacks - we love a target-rich environment!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:56 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydoe: President Barack Obama leads Republican challenger Mitt Romney by 46 percent to 37 percent in a new survey of Daily Inter Lake readers.

            HTC: Do you really consider that a valid 'poll'? No wonder you're so misinformed. You don't even know the basics of statistically valid polling methodology.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:53 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydoe: I always felt Mother Earth News was informative and helpful to substaining a natural lifestyle.

            HTC: Only if "natural lifestyle" means being naturally ignorant and misinformed.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:51 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydoe: President Barack Obama leads Republican challenger Mitt Romney by 47 percent to 39 percent in a new survey of small business owners.

            HTC: This 'poll' completely flies in the face of every other verifiable survey I've seen on the same subject; for example, all the other polls I've seen identify taxes and regulations, including ObamaCare, as small business owners's primary concerns, while this 'poll' has "job creation" as their number one issue.

            Well, aren't they supposed to be the job creators? Isn't that already under their control?

            I've never ONCE seen "job creation" as an issue in the legitimate surveys I've seen; instead, they identify the ecnonomy, taxes regulatory burden and lack of consumer demand because THAT'S what they need to see improve before they can start creating jobs.

            They also identify ObamaCare as one of the main reasons why they'd be reluctant to hire in the future, even with an increase in consumer demand.

            This poll is clearly suspect which is undoubtedly why they don't disclose how they selected their respondents nor tell us much about them. What little detail they do provide makes clear that they significantly oversampled Democrats compared to their actual makeup in the small business arena. I wouldn't be surprised if Thumbtack.com, who no one I checked with has heard of, simply made this stuff up.

            Every poll I've seen shows Romney leading amongst small business owners with Obama actually losing support because of their concern over his business-hostile statements and his infamous gaffe "You didn't build that."

            An Inc poll taken recently, showed Romney ahead with business owners by a 13 percentage point margin:

            http://www.inc.com/flash-steinbeiser/poll-obama-gains-on-romney-in-small-business-votes.html

            A recent Manta poll showed Romney leading Obama 61% to 26%:

            http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/poll-small-business-owners-swing-toward-supporting-mitt-romney.html

            CBS and other networks have documented Obama's decline with business owners:

            http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57480477-503544/poll-obama-approval-among-business-owners-drops/

            But seriously, jennydoe, it's getting really tiresome having to continue to point out to you what should be obvious. If you can't make informed posts, please stop posting at all.


             
          • jennydoe posted at 9:48 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            President Barack Obama leads Republican challenger Mitt Romney by 46 percent to 37 percent in a new survey of Daily Inter Lake readers.

            http://dailyinterlake.com/

             
          • jennydoe posted at 9:36 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            kohana: Ah, "Mother Earth" is alive and well? I thought it was a rag in the 1970s and I see that it hasn't improved.
            -----------------
            I always felt Mother Earth News was informative and helpful to substaining a natural lifestyle.
            I haven't read it for years though.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 9:22 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            President Barack Obama leads Republican challenger Mitt Romney by 47 percent to 39 percent in a new survey of small business owners.

            http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/washingtonbureau/2012/09/17/poll-obama-leads-romney-among-small.html

             
          • jennydoe posted at 9:14 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            Seems like Rmoney might be a leftist afterall:

            Conservative columnist Bill Kristol lit into Mitt Romney in the Weekly Standard over his leaked remarks that 47 percent of Americans are hopelessly dependent on government and thus will vote for President Obama.

            "It remains important for the country that Romney wins in November (unless he chooses to step down and we get the Ryan-Rubio ticket we deserve!)," Kristol wrote on Tuesday. "But that shouldn't blind us to the fact that Romney's comments, like those of Obama four years ago, are arrogant and stupid.

            Noting that many of the 47 percent of Americans who don't pay income tax are core Republican groups like seniors and active military, Kristol added that "Romney seems to have contempt not just for the Democrats who oppose him, but for tens of millions who intend to vote for him."

             
          • Pete posted at 9:08 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            jennydoe posted at 8:06 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            Sorry, I was mistaken....it was Mother Jones. I knew it was one of those Mothers. [smile]

             
          • jennydoe posted at 9:02 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            If we have to stop using 'controversial' then you have to stop using 'stupid' et al to describe everything and everyone on the left. You have grossly overused it.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:57 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydos: don't stop there, here he is trashing the two-state solution on Israel......

            HTC: Mother Jones? Really?

            If you lived in Russia, you'd probably still be reading Pravda.

            Romney is correct about there being little chance of a two-state solution actually working. Even if one knows nothing about that complex situation, the fact that it hasn't worked after nearly 70 years of trying would be enough to force the reasonable man/woman to that same conclusion.

            But you belong to the party of the insane who continue trying the same thing while expecting a different outcome. Then you deride people like Romney who would dare to speak the obvious truth.

            Your kind don't much like truthtellers.

             
          • kohana posted at 8:56 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Ah, "Mother Earth" is alive and well? I thought it was a rag in the 1970s and I see that it hasn't improved.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:42 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydoe: Whether or not Rmoney speaks the truth is controversial.

            HTC: Ah but ,of course, whatever Obama says is gospel. Oops! That can't be the case because then he'd lose the atheist and anti-Christians like Bronco who despise the gospel.

            Those of you on the left need to drop that word "controversial" because you've grossly overused it to describe everything and everyone on the right. He//, in your world, even our Constitution is controversial.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:38 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydoe posted at 8:12 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            If your 22% effective tax rate is only Federal, you either have a lousy tax preparer or you're easily into six-figure income land, in which case you'd better vote for Romney because Obama is going to be asking you to "pay your fair share."

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:30 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydoe: Am I the only one who finds it rather pathetic for a group of grown men, who consider themselves intelligent, to discuss amongst themselves (openly) what the best "name" to call others that don't agree with them a 'fun contest'?

            HTC: FAR more pathetic are they who cannot or will not grasp the truth, even after it's been repeatedly handed to them on a silver platter, but who focus instead on deriding the "naming" contests amongst those who've given up on them because they finally had to accept that there truly is no fixing stupid.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 8:28 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Jenny............who flicked your switch..........???

            It's OK, just shut up now.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 8:12 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            HTC: Are you including SS and Medicare payroll taxes in that calculation?

            no

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:11 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: [Sleezily quoting Romney out of context] "My job is not to worry about those people."

            Yeah, you're just another cheap, lying POS from the left. You know you took Romney's comment out of context.(but silly me for expecting otherwise from a proven plagiarist.) What Romney was saying was that he wasn't going to worry about trying to pull those people into his camp because he knew his message of personal responsibility and doing FOR your country rather than taking FROM it wasn't going to win them over.

            Naturally, rather than expressing outrage that so many of your fellow citizens were part of the nanny state which you CLAIM you don't support, you defended them and, indirectly, the nanny state itself. Your progressive reflexes continue to betray your mouth as a liar whenever it exclaims that you're not a progressive by nature.

            Bronco: [Regurgitating Obama's lies] "To those Americans whose support I have yet to earn--I may not have won your vote, but I hear your voices...I will be your president too."

            HTC: But he hasn't been THEIR president, too, has he? They're the small businesses he's trying desperately to tax and regulate out of existence. They're the 'rich' who he constantly derides. They're the successful PRODUCTIVE Americans whose personal success he refuses to recognize, claiming that government did that for them. They're the people of faith whose conscience he's raped with mandates that they must pay for things for others in spite of their conscience-based abhorance of those things.

            The man is a Marxist jackboot in $7500 suits and a $35,000 watch and you're so mind-numbingly stupid that you can't even begin to see him for what he really is.


             
          • jennydoe posted at 8:06 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            Pete: BTW...you might want to check Mother Earth News and their selective editing of Romney's silver spoon comments. Just another Lib hack job...but it sure gets the base riled up huh?
            ----------------------
            The only thing I could find on Mother Earth News regarding Rmoney was this:

            Romney sheep have mild temperaments, prosper in wet climates and have fleece favored by hand-spinners. Contact your local ARBA breeder or officer for more information.

            Read more: http://www.motherearthnews.com/fair/pu-exhibit-AN.aspx#ixzz26pWsvJnx

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:58 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            Whether or not Rmoney speaks the truth is controversial. The fact of the matter is he says it only in front of patrons of a $50,000 a plate fundraiser. Let's see him put out an ad saying 47% of Americans are mooches.
            And guess what? Most of them are republicans.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:52 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            jennydoe: I pay a 22% tax rate.

            HTC: Are you including SS and Medicare payroll taxes in that calculation?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:47 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: Romney derides Obama supporters in hidden camera speech

            So Romney speaks the truth - that there are a substantial number of people feeding off of government and asking what more can government do for them (e.g., Sandra Fluke) - and that's a bad thing?

            It would be BAD only if it weren't true, in which case it would be a slanderous thing to say about those folks; sadly, it is true and you know it.

            But you didn't notice that your raging lefty sources didn't even attempt to prove his comments incorrect, did you? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. In the upside down progressive world that you live in and prefer, a man is lambasted for speaking what most people are thinking and know to be true.

            Where were you and the other lefties when Obama made his infamous gaffe referring to rural people as "bitter" and "clinging to guns or religion" and being "anti-government" and "anti-immigrant?" Where were you when his new administration issued a 'security' report falsely and slanderously identifying people on the right who disagree with them as "our primary threat of domestic terrorism?" Where were you and your fellow hypocrites when Biden famously told a largely black audience that Romney wanted to put them back in chains?

            This is by no means even close to an exhaustive list of the insults and derision coming from your side but you go out of your way to create a tempest in a teapot over Romney simply speaking the truth.

            You were silent then but now you're broadcasting your mega-hypocrisy for the entire world to behold.

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 7:46 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2534

            Noted - There is no way to educate liberal/progressives to the danger Comrade/King Obama Community organizer-in-chief is to this nation. His present "policy" of spending us into nation-wide bankrupcy, his gross ineptitude as a President etc. etc. has no effect. Somehow they compare a socialist with no experience and no success to a successful business man, exgovernor and conclude the communisty organizer is a better choice? Just how stupid can they be?

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:37 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            Am I the only one who finds it rather pathetic for a group of grown men, who consider themselves intelligent, to discuss amongst themselves (openly) what the best "name" to call others that don't agree with them a 'fun contest'?

             
          • Pete posted at 7:22 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            jennydoe posted at 6:13 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012

            Good for Romney.

            BTW...you might want to check Mother Earth News and their selective editing of Romney's silver spoon comments. Just another Lib hack job...but it sure gets the base riled up huh?

             
          • Pete posted at 7:15 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Jenny...I don't expect you to understand the difference between capital gains taxes, income taxes, fees, etc. and the double, triple, quadrupal, ad nauseum - taxation they represent. I also have to chuckle when you and your compadres talk about raising capital gains tax rates and in the same breath speak about winning Florida. I guess you progressives think that Romney is the only one living off capital gains. Join the new century...most retirees in Florida are looking at a 50% cut in income if the Dems have their way with CG tax hikes. Go ahead....pi$$ them off and tell them they haven't paid their "fair share".

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 7:11 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco posted at 10:55 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012

            I just love how you keep proving me wrong. No, not that my facts are wrong; rather, that you're an even bigger sucker for the garbage from the left than I give you credit for.

            You continue to insist that you're not a progressive; yet, the only 'reality' you accept as fact is the artificial one coming from the left.

            How much we've paid in is irrelevant, so the government has already long ago spent those surplus funds on other things.

            THERE IS NO SOCIAL SECURITY TRUST FUND DESERVING TO BE CALLED SUCH! This is not a difficult concept for my granddaughter to grasp, nor for most of the American public who figured that out long ago and thus began to question whether they'd ever get SS; but, it might as well be advanced rocket science where you're concerned.

            Just where do you think that $200T in unfunded liabilities is to be found? Or do you also believe the left's lies about that - that it is merely "fearmongering from the right?"

            You are one poor, confused little progressive puppy.


             
          • Bronco posted at 7:07 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Poor Pete. His boy caught on video, trash-talking elderly Americans. Man, if Obama had said this, Pete, HTC, mooseberryinn, and JB wouldn't need their little blue pills for a month.


            ---About 46 percent of Americans owed no federal income tax in 2011, although many of them paid other forms of taxes. More than 16 million elderly Americans avoid federal income taxes solely because of tax breaks that apply only to seniors, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

            "It's hard to serve as president for all Americans when you've disdainfully written off half the nation," Obama campaign manager Jim Messina said in a statement.

            http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0917/How-damaging-is-Romney-s-victims-comment-video

             
          • jennydoe posted at 7:06 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            ............Part of the reason so many Americans don’t pay federal income taxes is that Republicans have passed a series of very large tax cuts that wiped out the income-tax liability for many Americans. That’s why, when you look at graphs of the percent of Americans who don’t pay income taxes, you see huge jumps after Ronald Reagan’s 1986 tax reform and George W. Bush’s 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. So whenever you hear that half of Americans don’t pay federal income taxes, remember: Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush helped build that. (You also see a jump after the financial crisis begins in 2008, but we can expect that to be mostly temporary.)

            Some of those tax cuts for the poor were there to make the tax cuts for the rich more politically palatable. “Do you think we wanted to include a welfare payment to people who don’t pay taxes and call it a tax cut?” A top Bush administration official once asked me. “No. But that’s what we needed to do to get it done.”

            But now that those tax cuts have passed and many fewer Americans are paying federal income taxes and the rich are paying a much higher percentage of federal income taxes, Republicans are arguing that these Americans they have helped free from income taxes have become a dependent and destabilizing “taker” class who want to hike taxes on the rich in order to purchase more social services for themselves. The antidote, as you can see in both Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney’s policy platforms, is to further cut taxes on “job creators” while cutting the social services that these takers depend on. That way, you roll the takers out of what Ryan calls “the hammock” of government and you unleash the makers to create jobs and opportunities.

            So notice what happened here: Republicans have become outraged over the predictable effect of tax cuts they passed and are using that outrage as the justification for an agenda that further cuts taxes on the rich and pays for it by cutting social services for the non-rich.

            That’s why Romney’s theory here is more than merely impolitic. It’s actually core to his economic agenda.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/17/romneys-theory-of-the-taker-class-and-why-it-matters/

             
          • jennydoe posted at 6:35 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            Benjy Sarlin- September 17, 2012, 9:54 PM 17739

            One irony of Mitt Romney’s leaked criticism of the 47% of Americans who don’t pay income tax is that Romney may be a member of the club himself since he pays almost no income tax relative to his vast wealth.

            Don’t believe it? Ask Mitt Romney. In a January debate, Romney criticized a proposal by Newt Gingrich to eliminate capital gains taxes because ultra-wealthy investors like Romney would pay virtually no taxes at all in such a scenario. That’s because Romney’s estimated $250 million fortune comes almost entirely from investment income that isn’t covered by income tax.

            “Under that plan, I’d have paid no taxes in the last two years,” Romney said at the time.


            He may have overestimated the effect on his taxes, but not by much. In 2010, he would have paid a 0.82% tax rate. The issue gained renewed attention in August, because his running mate Paul Ryan had also proposed eliminating capital gains taxes.

            But 2010 may have been an unusual year. Romney published a bestselling book and made some money on the speaking circuit, generating $593,996 in traditional income. Hardly chump change, but a tiny proportion of his $21 million income that year overall.

            It’s possible that in other years, without these sources of revenue, Romney made far less, perhaps next to nothing, in earned income subject to income taxes. There’s no way to know because Romney has refused to release any of his earlier tax returns. By his own account, however, Romney seems to think that without capital gains he’d hit “no taxes.” So if he hasn’t been a member of the 47% at one point in his career, he’s certainly scraped close to the border relative to his income.

            http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/mitt-romney-is-the-47-according-to-mitt-romney.php?ref=fpb

             
          • jennydoe posted at 6:13 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            don't stop there, here he is trashing the two-state solution on Israel......

            http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/romney-secret-video-israeli-palestinian-middle-east-peace

             
          • jennydoe posted at 6:06 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            and more of his white gloved server speech:

            Just when it's supposedly anti-Semitic to talk about the fact that neocons are working for Mitt Romney, Mother Jones has published a surreptitious recording of Romney at some fundraiser in which he pretty much destroys his candidacy with a lot of stupid statements about government programs-- and also says he's got Netanyahu's braintrust working for him:

            I have a very good team of extraordinarily experienced, highly successful consultants, a couple of people in particular who have done races around the world. I didn't realize it. These guys in the US—the Karl Rove equivalents—they do races all over the world: in Armenia, in Africa, in Israel. I mean, they work for Bibi Netanyahu in his race. So they do these races and they see which ads work, and which processes work best, and we have ideas about what we do over the course of the campaign. I'd tell them to you, but I'd have to shoot you.

            I think Romney is referring to the secretive and mysterious Arthur Finkelstein. Sheldon Adelson was to meet with him earlier this year in New York to talk about a SuperPAC. And the Times said he was working for Netanyahu in 1996, to destroy the two-state solution. Which is still Adelson's main chore. NYT:

            And he [Finkelstein] has helped craft simple, similarly stinging television advertisements for Benjamin Netanyahu, the conservative challenger to Prime Minister Shimon Peres.

            These commercials contend that Mr. Peres would divide Jerusalem between Israel and a Palestinian state and would return the Golan Heights to Syria with virtually no concessions; they close with the slogan "Making a Secure Peace." The implication is that peace under Mr. Peres would be riddled with anxiety.

            http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/romney-brags-hes-got-netanyahus-campaign-consultants-and-hell-shoot-you-before-telling-their-secrets.html

             
          • jennydoe posted at 6:02 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            Where Are the 47% of Americans Who Pay No Income Taxes?
            By David A. Graham
            inShare.25Sep 17 2012, 7:17 PM ET 179

            Mitt Romney says citizens who don't pay income tax will never vote for him. But eight of the top 10 states with the highest number of nonpayers are red states.

            The political world is in a tizzy over hidden-camera footage of Mitt Romney at a fundraising event. Here's the money quote -- literally -- from the Mother Jones scoop:

            There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what ....These are people who pay no income tax.
            The horserace implications of this statement are what the chattering class is chattering about. Unfortunately, they're also unknowable at this point. On the one hand, it's always a bad idea to disparage voters (see: Obama, Barack and clinging to guns and religion), and the soundbite helps to cement the idea that Romney is out of touch with the average American -- clearly, he's not trying to connect with nearly half of them! On the other hand, Romney is disparaging folks whose votes he's already written off.
            So let's set that speculation aside and look at who the people are who actually pay no income tax. Romney's statements are a little unclear, but it appears that the 47 percent figure represents all of those who pay no income tax, rather than the Democratic base. His problem is that those people are disproportionately in red states -- that is, states that tend to vote Republican:


            One important note about these numbers: This measures only those Americans who filed for taxes with no liability. Millions more didn't even file; it's those millions, added to the estimated 52 million here, who combine to make that 47 percent.

            It's important to remember that just because people aren't paying income tax doesn't mean they're not paying taxes -- they pay federal payroll taxes and state and local sales taxes, for example. One those taxes are factored in, the tax regime is basically flat. And the reason that most income tax nonpayers don't pay is they simply don't make enough income to qualify to pay. As one might expect, the map of states with the highest poverty levels resembles this map fairly closely. Many of them are also seniors, a highly contested voting bloc. Just more than 10 percent of households pay no income tax because they're retired. They might also be voters in places like Florida who are already jumpy about the changes to Medicare and Medicaid that the Romney-Ryan ticket has proposed -- although they would be mostly unaffected by those reforms.

            So Romney appears to be wrong about these voters. But if calling for a less progressive taxation system was enough to alienate poor voters in the Deep South, the Republican Party would have already lost its stronghold there.

            http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/where-are-the-47-of-americans-who-pay-no-income-taxes/262499/

             
          • jennydoe posted at 5:58 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            here Pete, so you can listen and listen and listen again, for your pleasure....

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU9V6eOFO38&feature=player_embedded

            I pay a 22% tax rate.
            Wonder why Rmoney still won't show his tax returns.....could it be????

             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 5:30 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2534

            Romney's point was "If you pay no taxes now, a tax decrease won't have much impact". As for comrade/King Obama, he will promise anyone anything to be re-elected. America might not survive another 4 years with him as President/Comrade/King etc.

             
          • Pete posted at 5:28 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Pete Posts: 3152

            Bronco posted at 11:58 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012

            What's the matter? Truth hurt? If Romney actually said this, (and I hope he did) I will be very impressed. If he doesn't back away from his comments I will be even more impressed. He just described every Obama supporter on this site...to a T-Bill.

            “There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it,” the former Massachusetts governor can be heard saying.

            “That, that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what…These are people who pay no income tax,” he continued, adding “so our message of low taxes doesn’t connect.”

            “[M]y job is, is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.”

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 12:42 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco: Yes! The one who WROTE the viewpoints is NOT the source. The source is where it's published. Don't credit William H. Buckley as the source of his books; credit Barnes and Noble. Right means Right, right, Right?


            ............I used to think you acted like a 12-year old............

            Now, I'm thinking it's more like 8.

             
          • Bronco posted at 12:31 am on Tue, Sep 18, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Rmoney, "My job is not to worry about those people (47% of American citizens)."

            President Obama, "To those Americans whose support I have yet to earn--I may not have won your vote, but I hear your voices...I will be your president too."

            Ha, ha, ha,....ha, ha, ha, ha. There's your candidate, Repubs. A true-blue patriot who loves America. Not.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:58 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Man, I've seen this in so many places today. But since it's bad news about Rmoney, it's gotta be lies!

            Romney derides Obama supporters in hidden camera speech
            By Patricia Zengerle | Reuters – 6 hrs ago

            WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney dismissed supporters of President Barack Obama - almost half of U.S. voters - as people who live off government handouts and do not "care for their lives," in a potentially damaging video.
            "There are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them," Romney said in a hidden-camera video of his remarks at a private fundraiser earlier this year posted on Monday on the left-wing Mother Jones magazine's website.
            "My job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. What I have to do is convince the 5 to 10 percent in the center that are independents," he said in remarks convincing donors to write checks for his campaign.
            The tape was released in the middle of a difficult time for Romney, as his campaign team on Monday fought off a report of disarray in his inner circle. The former private-equity executive promised to retool his message with more specifics on policies.
            Democrats leaped to try to take advantage of Romney's comments. "It's hard to serve as president for all Americans when you've disdainfully written off half the nation," Jim Messina, Obama's campaign manager, said in a statement.
            Romney's campaign said the Republican is concerned about Americans who are poor and unemployed. "Mitt Romney wants to help all Americans struggling in the Obama economy," Gail Gitcho, Romney's campaign communications director, said in a statement issued in response to a request for comment.
            Mother Jones did not say when or where the video was taken, to protect the identity of the person who recorded it. It did say Romney's remarks had been made at some point after he clinched the Republican presidential nomination in April.
            Romney also used his remarks to discuss with the donors his strategy for appealing to undecided or independent voters by stressing disappointment with Obama's policies.
            "Those people that we have to get, they want to believe they did the right thing, but he just wasn't up to the task. They love the phrase that he's 'over his head,'" Romney said in the video.
            The Democratic National Committee also distributed separately a clip from the video in which Romney jokes that he would fare better in the election if he were Latino. Romney's father was born in Mexico.
            "Had he been born of Mexican parents, I'd have a better shot of winning this," Romney said in the video tape.
            Democratic strategists view Obama's large lead among Hispanic voters as possibly the key to his winning the election on November 6 and Romney has been working to increase his support among them.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:01 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            kohana posted at 7:21 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.
            JB: .........THANKS...........!!!
            The point is that you can avoid wasting time slogging through stuff that's from unreliable sources with NO corroboration.................still ain't gonna waste my time.
            ---------------------
            Yes! The one who WROTE the viewpoints is NOT the source. The source is where it's published. Don't credit William H. Buckley as the source of his books; credit Barnes and Noble. Right means Right, right, Right?

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:55 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Bronco: The first thing you have to know is that we pay more into Social Security than we pay out each year and that we have for the last three decades until 2010.

            HTC: You are SO easily fooled, my 5 year-old granddaughter could probably rip you off and make you feel good about it!
            Let me make one thing perfectly clear: The Social Security 'Trust Fund' is merely a worthless stack of IOUs and nothing more. Your source is as ignorant and misinformed as you are...blah, blah, blah...
            -----------------------------------------------

            http://www.ssa.gov/history/hfaq.html

            Q24: How much has Social Security paid out since it started?

            A: From 1937 (when the first payments were made) through 2009 the Social Security program has expended $11.3 trillion.

            (See detailed tables of annual Social Security payments 1937-2008.) (See also detail for Q26)

            Q25: How much has Social Security taken in taxes and other income since it started?

            A: From 1937 (when taxes were first collected) through 2009 the Social Security program has received $13.8 trillion in income.

            (See detailed tables of annual Social Security revenues 1937-2008.) (See also detail for Q26)

            Q26: Has Social Security always taken in more money each year than it needed to pay benefits?

            A: No. So far there have been 11 years in which the Social Security program did not take enough in FICA taxes to pay the current year's benefits. During these years, Trust Fund bonds in the amount of about $24 billion made up the difference. (See detailed Table.)
            -------------------------
            But then, we all know there's this one guy in Montana who had to vacate California; a well-accomplished fellow, former cop, business tycoon, Silicone Valley wealthy genius, engineer and scientist, who has his own sources that say otherwise.

             
          • kohana posted at 10:21 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            JB, you're welcome, I knew you weren't up to wadding through all the BS so did it for you. Don't you waste any more time on it.

            We are getting better information out of UK than we are from out own media sources, as they are protecting Obama. The whole world knows the attacks on our embassies were planned well in advance, but not our empty chair and his cohort, Clinton, nor our Ambassador to the UN, still trying to convince us it was a stupid home made film.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:06 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            MORE trouble brewing.............

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/18/us-afghan-military-operations-suspended

            US suspends joint military operations with Afghanistan after attacks

            Joint US-Afghan missions halted after four US and two British troops killed in an 'insider attack' on the weekend

            Chris McGreal
            guardian.co.uk, Monday 17 September 2012 23.36 EDT


            The US military has suspended joint operations with Afghan forces because of a collapse in trust after a surge in the number of Americans and other Nato soldiers killed by the men they are fighting alongside or training.

            The chief US military officer, General Martin Dempsey, described the sharp rise in "insider attacks" by rogue Afghan soldiers and policemen, which saw four American and two British soldiers killed at the weekend, as "a very serious threat to the campaign" against the Taliban.

            American commanders said that joint operations on the ground will be suspended "until further notice" in a dramatic admission that the strategy to shift responsibility for fighting the insurgents to local forces has been deeply compromised by Afghan government soldiers and policemen killing 51 Nato soldiers in 36 attacks this year. At least 12 attacks were carried out last month alone, leaving 15 dead.

            The US defence secretary, Leon Panetta, described the attacks as the "last gasp" of a weakened Taliban. But the admission that Nato troops are no longer safe from the forces they are relying on to keep the Taliban at bay after the final US pullout in 2014 is a severe blow to Washington's military plans.

            Under the strategy, members of the soon to be 350,000 strong Afghan security forces gain experience patrolling and fighting alongside American and other foreign soldiers. But the killings have led to a collapse in trust.

            The US army said it is "not walking away" from Afghan military units and will continue to advise them. But Nato troops will patrol with them only when specific approval is given by a regional commander.

            American officials say the insider attacks are carried out by a mix of Taliban infiltrators dressed as soldiers, by insurgents who have got themselves recruited and Afghan soldiers angry about their treatment because of personal insults or cultural differences.

            US commanders had already assigned soldiers to guard their comrades as they slept, ate or interacted with Afghan forces because of the increasing number of "insider killings". American troops were also ordered to carry loaded weapons at all times, even inside their own bases.

            Nato attacks on Afghan civilians have added to the strain. In the latest, an air strike killed eight women and girls collecting firewood.

            The loss of trust in the force the US is relying on to prevent the Taliban taking control of Afghanistan again, compounds other concerns about Washington's strategy. The additional 33,000 soldiers Barack Obama despatched two years ago as part of the "surge" are expected to complete their withdrawal this week. The remaining 68,000 US troops are supposed to gradually shift responsibility to Afghan forces which, under the American strategy, are to take the lead in combat as early as next year.

            But despite gains on the battlefield, questions persist about whether the Afghan forces will have the ability and will to keep an undefeated Taliban at bay once Nato forces have left.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:01 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            kohana posted at 7:21 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            .........THANKS...........!!!

            The point is that you can avoid wasting time slogging through stuff that's from unreliable sources with NO corroboration.................still ain't gonna waste my time.

            [wink]

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:35 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Bronco posted at 3:17 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012
            HTC: You're losing it, buddy. Time to seek some professional help.
            --------------------
            Well, hey, HTC, I was simply using you very own logic. You are voting Republican, so you disapprove of gays, hate them so much you don't want them to be happy. Two can play this game.

             
          • Bronco posted at 9:32 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            JB: I see NO link or name of news media, etc. Just some guy's name.....
            ------------------
            What the...? What do you think the source is? World Wide Web?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:27 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Best line heard today:

            Last month, nearly 400,000 people gave up looking for work; unfortunately, Obama wasn't one of them.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:15 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco posted at 5:56 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012

            I certainly hope for your wife's sake and that of your children (who would have to support both of you if you could not do so yourself), that Stephanie Zvan isn't your retirement planner and investment broker.

            When I said in the past that you were quite ignorant of economics and finance, I had no idea that your ignorance was as vast as is now apparent.

            Excuse me while I roll on the floor and laugh some more....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:07 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: The first thing you have to know is that we pay more into Social Security than we pay out each year and that we have for the last three decades until 2010. The excess funds go to buy Treasury bonds, which pay for other government spending. Those Treasury bonds are what will pay Social Security benefits in years in which other funding is not sufficient.

            HTC: You are SO easily fooled, my 5 year-old granddaughter could probably rip you off and make you feel good about it!

            Let me make one thing perfectly clear: The Social Security 'Trust Fund' is merely a worthless stack of IOUs and nothing more. Your source is as ignorant and misinformed as you are because the 'fund' does NOT consist of "Treasury bonds" which are actually marketable and transferrable; whereas, the IOUs in the 'trust' fund are not and merely represent a promise to pay SS when needed by a government which is now bankrupt.

            Anyone who thinks there's any "security' or 'solvency' in that scenario is a major fool!

            That 'fund' is merely a major chunk of the $200T+ of unfunded liabilities which now threaten to exterminate economic life as we've know it. Attempting to honor those IOUs will merely grow the deficit and increase federal borrowing or, more likely as investors lose interest in our worthless sovereign debt, it will lead to the printing of more money and runaway inflation.

            If you don't believe me, my granddaughter will issue you a million dollars in IOUs which you can take to the bank and offer as assets to be put in a trust for your benefit. She will sell you those IOUs for only 5 cents on the dollar because she's in a good mood today.

            If you act now, this deal can be yours and, if you can find a legitimate and properly chartered U.S. bank which will accept those IOUs and credit your account accordingly, you can be assured of a comfortable retirement.

            But call now as this offer ends in 24 hours.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:48 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: First of all, raising taxes is not the answer. We all know that.

            HTC: Cantor is correct about raising taxes not being the answer; but, he's wrong about everyone knowing that. Most Democrats don't know that and even many Republicans don't.

            Raising taxes won't work because there's simply not enough money to go after on the entire planet. We're facing in excess of $200T in unfunded liabilities, mostly from the entitlement and public pension systems. They will soon cause us to bleed so much red ink so quickly that they will destroy ALL of the western economies and severely hurt the other developing economies.

            Even if that weren't the case, there's also the fact that it's simply not possible to extract more than 17-19% of GDP, not matter WHAT tax policy happens to be. If you try to "tax the rich" with high marginal tax rates, they'll take their money elsewhere and you'll still get only 17-19% of GDP, only GDP will grow more slowly or even contract.

            If you lower tax rates, you'll ultimately get 17-19%, but of a growing economy with a much bigger GDP.

            This is so consistent that it's like the law of gravity - bet on it but never bet against it.

            But Obama's spending 26% of GDP, 6-7 percentage points more than we can collect in taxes. That's going to grow even higher as more of the baby boomers start retiring and demanding their Social Security and Medicare and more public employees retire and demand their substantially more generous but equally unfunded retirement benefits.

            Such entitlements now account for 70% of the budget but will grow to over 90% by the end of the decade (according to the CBO.)

            We clearly have a SPENDING problem and not a revenue problem. Romney and Ryan understand this but that idiot in the White House doesn't, even as he's also insisting that the attack on our consulate in Libya was "spontaneous", even though the rest of the world knows otherwise.

            Sequestration was a stupid idea which, not surprisingly, originated with Obama. Why the GOP went along with it is beyond me. Apparently they believed that no on would allow it to happen and that the Democrats would ultimately work with them to arrive at reasoned cuts instead.

            I'm must amazed that anyone still actually expects the Democrats to participate in anything sane and patriotic.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:33 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco posted at 3:17 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012

            You're losing it, buddy. Time to seek some professional help.

             
          • kohana posted at 7:24 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Here are her credentials for the social security piece:

            Stephanie Zvan is an analyst by trade, but she's paid not to talk about it. She also writes science fiction and fantasy, so she knows firsthand that the impact of a story is usually unrelated to its truth. As though that weren't enough to keep her busy, Stephanie is also one of the hosts for Atheists Talk, a radio show and podcast produced by the Minnesota Atheists. She speaks on science and skepticism in a number of venues, including science fiction and fantasy conventions. Stephanie has been called a science blogger and a sex blogger, but if it means she has to choose just one thing to be or blog about, she's decided she's never going to grow up. In addition to science and sex and the science of sex, you'll find quite a bit of politics here, some economics, a regular short fiction feature, and the occasional bit of concentrated weird. Oh, and arguments. She sometimes indulges in those as well. But I'm sure everything will be just fine. Nothing to worry about. Nothing at all.

             
          • kohana posted at 7:21 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            JB here are Bronco's sources:

            http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/

            http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 6:15 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco posted at 5:56 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            ........CITE the source...........

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 5:58 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco posted at 5:04 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            I cited the source. But what does it matter? Keep retaining that analness.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~

            I see NO link or name of news media, etc. Just some guy's name.....
            [sleeping]

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:56 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Social Security: Should We Double It?
            September 16, 2012 at 6:32 pm Stephanie Zvan

            “Savings” by 401(K) 2012. Some rights reserved.
            I was on a call recently, listening to somebody talk about a federal revenue committee that has been discussing ways to rearrange tax burdens and increase revenues. This person mentioned that one proposal under consideration was doubling Social Security. Two people in the room laughed.

            I don’t have the details. This isn’t the sort of proposal that gets reported in the news. I assume the idea would be to raise withholding and employer-paid rates immediately, with increases in benefits to be phased in over time. People who are currently retired and not paying into Social Security would receive no increase. People who have been paying in at the new rates for a certain number of years would receive fully twice the benefit when they retire that they would now. Everyone in between would be affected based on years at the new rates.

            I can see that this would be an appealing place to look for revenue. Because Social Security benefits paid now are funded by Social Security taxes paid now, the lag in increased benefits would substantially increase the current Social Security surplus. That would make those funds available for other uses. Instant additional funding.

            This isn’t accounting funny business exactly. Social Security funding has always worked that way. We run funding surpluses. Eventually, the benefits paid out would catch up somewhat, making the situation then closer to today’s situation. In the meantime, there would be no worry about the boomers being a drain on general funds.

            Sounds good, right? Well, then why did people laugh? Why is this idea outside the Overton Window?

            A lot of the reflexive ridicule comes out of the last few decades of messaging from politicians and conservative think tank “scholars” who were tasked with taking Social Security private. Two market busts and a long stretch of recession have effectively killed that idea for now, but the messages are still out there. Nor have the counter-messages made much headway in these days of big corporate media.

            This week, I want to do something about that. I’ve identified several things that people don’t know or don’t fully understand about Social Security after decades of miseducation. Each day this week, I’ll be taking a closer look at one aspect of Social Security or retirement funding. Here is a list of posts I have scheduled.

            It Isn’t Broke
            We Suck at Money
            We Aren’t Investing
            Corporate Retirement Funding
            The Perqs of Retirement Security
            Have questions about Social Security? Have technical reasons why you don’t think doubling Social Security would be beneficial? Feel free to add them in the comments here, and I’ll try to make sure they’re addressed.

            If, instead, you object to Social Security being increased based on philosophical grounds only, that’s nice. You can do that. Anyone trying to turn my comments section into yet another paean to economic libertarianism will like find themselves booted, however.

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:54 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            Social Security: It Isn’t Broke
            September 17, 2012 at 2:41 pm Stephanie Zvan

            Every few years, we hear the news that Social Security is going to go broke. They have run the numbers, and the money is going to run out.

            Of course, it is always going to run out decades from now.

            And no one really talks about what it means for Social Security to go broke. So let’s do that now, in a slightly simplified version.

            The first thing you have to know is that we pay more into Social Security than we pay out each year and that we have for the last three decades until 2010. The excess funds go to buy Treasury bonds, which pay for other government spending. Those Treasury bonds are what will pay Social Security benefits in years in which other funding is not sufficient.

            So did we start tapping into Treasury bonds in 2010, when Social Security taxes didn’t cover benefits? No. Social Security assets generate interest, which is also available to pay benefits. That interest is currently making up the shortfall between taxes and benefits. And it’s doing a fine job of it. We’re still buying Treasury bonds. Current estimates show that we’ll keep buying them, or at least not spending them, up to 2021, another nine years. Then we’ll spend the bonds, which will last another 12 years.

            Then, and only then, will we experience a shortfall that will require an increase in taxes (either by percentage or by increasing the portion of income subject to taxation), a decrease in benefits (scaled or by percentage or through means testing), or a subsidy from general revenues. Social Security still would not be broke. It could, in fact, be fixed by doubling the taxes and ever so slightly less than doubling benefits.

            That is what happens according to the current estimates. However, there’s something you need to know about the current estimates. These estimates looks a lot like prior estimates, in that they are decades out.

            Social Security has been doomed to fail for a very long time without actually getting much closer to doing so. The reason is that the estimates are required by law to be based on very conservative assumptions. We cannot run the risk of going broke, so the reasoning goes, so we must plan very carefully.

            How carefully?

            But what’s annoying about all of this is that the prediction that Social Security revenues plus the accumulated U.S. securities (yes, the U.S. government, not China, is far and away the world’s largest holder of U.S. securities) will be unable to meet its obligations in 2037*, and only pay out 78 percent of benefits. That estimate comes from a Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report (pdf). But that CBO estimate is based on an annual real GDP rate of growth of 2.5%.

            Zoiks! OK, I realize those of you who have managed to stick it out this far might not understand the implications of what a RGDP rate of growth of 2.5% implies (heathens!).

            That rate would be so historically abysmal that, since going off the gold standard, we have never had a thirty year period with an average rate of growth of 2.5%. Ever.

            This discussion predates the current set of estimates, and the current set of estimates does not show the gains (performance better than expected) we have come to expect comparing various sets of estimates. We have, however, been experiencing a period of dismal economic performance not seen since Social Security was enacted. If this continues, we have much, much more to worry about than when we might run out of Social Security funds squirreled away in Treasury bonds.

            If we don’t assume that we have generally reached the end of economic growth in our country, if we don’t assume that this sort of unemployment and underemployment will last for two decades, those estimates are much, much further out, even with the baby boomers retiring and trying to live forever at the same time. There just isn’t that much of a story here…unless your goal is to scare people away from Social Security and into private investment.

            In case you haven’t figured it out, that’s the point of all those stories. Next time you see one, look at who is quoted in the story. As with this story posted yesterday, you’ll usually find the expert in question is connected to a conservative think tank.

            The day they’re not, then you worry. Until then, relax. Social Security isn’t broke.

            ——————–
            Cue HTC and his insult and spin machine.

             
          • kohana posted at 5:53 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            Bronco posted at 3:12 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012, http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2010/10/02/where-did-the-golden-rule-come-from/

            "HTC, once again you support Christianity to be the origin of attributes that have been universal long before that young religion came about. How ironic, the way you cut me down, insult me, slander my name...and preach Christianity all in the same post."

            Again Bronco, you've over reached yourself, silly cartoons not withstanding. People who are not thoroughly versed in religions of various kinds, generally forget that Christianity was a sect of Judaism at least 100 years before the person named Jesus came upon the scene. If such a person was living at the time proposed, he would have been educated, as it was the law of the time all children were taught to read and write. That was so they could obey the commandment to teach these words to your children....etc.

            "The Golden Rule," is actually called the "Ethic of Reciprocity" both in the negative and positive form, do not do unto others...; and do unto others... the first written form was in the Torah, Leviticus 19:18, the Great Commandment, You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

            As you should know, since you told me you read Josephus, at the time of his History of the Jews c90 AD, he claimed they were over 5,000 years in existence. So we have no real idea of just when all the laws in Leviticus were written, but at least about 1200 BC, but the good stuff was accepted by the Christian sect,(and some of the bad) and quoted by them.

            Rabbi Hillel who lived about 100 years before Jesus, stated the whole of Torah was to do nothing to another that was despicable to yoursel. All else was commentary, go study.

            When the Babylonians sacked Israel about 600 BC and took the people into slavery, the Jews took their Torah with them, and the Babylonian Talmud is nothing more than commentary on the Torah.(First 5 books of the Bible)

            Nobody is trying to preach Christianity to you, however, you should get your history correct if you are going to try to use it to get "one up" on someone.

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:52 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: You made the statement that there is nothing of value within Christian teaching,
            --------------------
            Liar, enough of your shiit. I did not make that statement. I posted a quotation from someone else who stated it, and it was regarding qualifying Christianity to represent the USA on its currency. You're just a little biche today, huh?

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 5:30 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: What a horrible thing to say about someone. F-U

            HTC: My, my, aren't you the hypersensitive hypocrite! You post a particular nasty statement about nothing of value in the Christian belief system, even though that's obviously a false assessment, and then get all torqued for being correctly labeled "ignorant."

            Then you end your current post with a school boy level profanity.

            Impressive. Not!

            Bronco: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2010/10/02/where-did-the-golden-rule-come-from/

            HTC: While the ethics of reciprocity have been around for some time and present in most cultures to greater or lesser degree, within the Judeo-Christian arena, it goes back to roughly 1400BC at least, where it appears in Leviticus in the form of "Love thy neighbor as thy self."

            We may argue over where it first appears, but that is an exercise for small minds. You made the statement that there is nothing of value within Christian teaching, but that is obviously a false statement and merely exposes your hatred for religions in general and Christianity in particular.

            You call me a "hater" while you disply your hatred at nearly every turn.

             
          • Bronco posted at 5:04 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            JB: Not quite..............I always cite my sources.
            ----------------------
            I cited the source. But what does it matter? Keep retaining that analness.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 4:45 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco posted at 3:31 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            In the spirit of JB:

            Not quite..............I always cite my sources.

             
          • who new posted at 4:36 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            who new Posts: 367

            HTC: “But one must also allow for the possibility that the presence of terrorist forces within their ranks will require that we help to secure the vast weaponry that brutal dictators always have, in order to keep them out of the hands of said terrorists.”

            Unfortunately, it may be too late for that for two reasons.

            One, anything we do in the region is viewed by Arabs as meddling in their affairs and exacerbates the animosity they have towards us. This increases their resolve to bring harm to Americans. We should now focus our efforts on protecting Israel and those few other Arabic countries we still have decent relationships with.

            Two, as a nation and as citizens individually, we are flat out broke. We talk about the total indebtedness of the nation and unfunded liabilities, but rarely talk about personal indebtedness, which is at uncomfortably high levels.

            Foreign matters will just have to wait until we get our own house in order, despite the probable expansion of anti-American Islamic terrorists throughout the world. Perhaps our reticence to become involved will motivate our allies to share some of the responsibility for combating the Islamic threat.

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:31 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            In the spirit of JB:

            GOP Can’t Imagine How Anyone Could Support Sequestration
            September 17, 2012 at 2:09 pm Ed Brayton

            Watching the Republican party flip out over the actual implementation of the sequestration deal has been rather amusing to me. Eric Cantor, who voted for the deal in August, 2011, tweeted recently that the deal will do terrible harm to everything we hold dear:

            The sequester will harm important domestic priorities such as education, medical research, law enforcement, national security, and jobs.

            Let us count the many levels of irony here. First of all, as noted above, Cantor voted in favor of sequestration. Secondly, about 2/3 of the votes in favor of the deal came from Republicans in the House, while about 2/3 of the votes against it were from Democrats (see the full vote here http://www.opencongress.org/vote/2011/h/690 ). Thirdly, Cantor himself, while complaining that the cuts will hurt everything, the other day demanded that the entire deficit be reduced solely through spending cuts and no tax increases:

            BARTIROMO: So what are you willing to give on, Congressman? When you look at what the two sides are basically sticking to their guns, can it really be realistic to say taxes can never go up, that, you know, taxes should stay where they are forever in any environment? What are you willing to give on?

            CANTOR: First of all, raising taxes is not the answer. We all know that. This problem is too large to think we can tax our way out of it. What we really need to be focused on is how big do we want the government to be, and begin to assess our priorities so we can manage down the deficit. That’s clearly how it is. Once we get a plan in place where, in fact, we’ve got a solution to the overspending, you know, we can begin to tell people their tax revenues will go to be paying off the deficit. But the problem is, Maria, there’s been an unwillingness to face up to the hard facts that there are obligations that have been assumed by the taxpayers, frankly, and there’s not enough money to satisfy those obligations. That’s what we have to sit down, iron out the differences, and go forward.

            His version of “ironing out the differences” is that everyone do what he wants. But since what he wants is a trillion dollars in cuts and no consideration of higher revenues whatsoever, how does he propose making those cuts without creating the same harms he complains about above?

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:17 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, once again you support Christianity to be the origin of attributes that have been universal long before that young religion came about. How ironic, the way you cut me down, insult me, slander my name...and preach Christianity all in the same post.

            You hate gays and lesbians.

             
          • Bronco posted at 3:12 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: Mr. Kamcza is as one-dimensional and ignorant as you are. Christianity gave us the "golden rule" (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you), the Good Samaritan, forgiveness, and the principle of charity. I guess these are not good things in your world or his.
            -------------------------------
            What a horrible thing to say about someone. F-U

            http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2010/10/02/where-did-the-golden-rule-come-from/

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 3:03 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            JBSTONE posted at 2:21 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012

            There's an amazing number of mouth-breathers (aka, Democratic voters) who will buy Obama's B.S. anyway.

            I stand in awe of the incredible stupidity of so many of my fellow citizens.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 2:30 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Video shows Libyans trying to rescue US ambassador

            By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press – 47 minutes ago

            CAIRO (AP) — Libyans tried to rescue Ambassador Chris Stevens, cheering "God is great" and rushing him to a hospital after they discovered him still clinging to life inside the U.S. Consulate, according to witnesses and a new video that emerged Monday from last week's attack in the city of Benghazi.

            The group of Libyans had stumbled across Stevens' seemingly lifeless form inside a dark room and didn't know who he was, only that he was a foreigner, the man who shot the video and two other witnesses told The Associated Press.

            The account underlines the confusion that reigned during the assault by protesters and heavily armed gunmen that overwhelmed the consulate in Benghazi last Tuesday night, killing four Americans, including Stevens, who died from smoke inhalation soon after he was found. U.S. officials are still trying to piece together how the top American diplomat in Libya got separated from others as staffers were evacuated, suffocating in what is believed to be a consulate safe-room.

            The Libyans who found him expressed frustration that there was no ambulance and no first aid on hand, leaving him to be slung over a man's shoulder to be carried to a car.

            "There was not a single ambulance to carry him. Maybe he was handled the wrong way," said Fahd al-Bakoush, a freelance videographer who shot the footage. "They took him to a private car."

            U.S. and Libyan officials are also trying to determine who was behind the attack. Still unclear was whether it had been planned beforehand or was sparked by an anti-Islam film made in the United States that, hours before the Benghazi assault, had sparked protests at the American Embassy in Cairo.

            On Sunday, Libyan President Mohammed el-Megarif contended foreign militants had been plotting the attack for months and timed it for Tuesday's 9/11 anniversary.

            However, U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Susan Rice said it appeared spontaneous and unplanned, that extremists with heavier weapons "hijacked" the protest and turned it into an outright attack. She noted Libya is awash with weapons.

            A CIA memo sent to U.S. lawmakers this weekend, and obtained by The Associated Press, says current intelligence still suggests the demonstrations in Benghazi "were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo" and "evolved into a direct assault" on the diplomatic posts by "extremists."

            Soon after the attack, Libyan civilians roamed freely around the trashed consulate, its walls blacked and furniture burned. Among them were the videographer al-Bakoush, and a photographer and art student he often works with.

            They heard a panicked shout, "I stepped over a dead man," and rushed to see what was going on, al-Bakoush said. The body had been found inside a dark room with a locked door accessible only by a window. A group of men pulled him out and realized he was a foreigner and still alive.

            He was breathing and his eyelids flickered, al-Bakoush said. "He was alive," he said. "No doubt. His face was blackened and he was like a paralyzed person."

            Video taken by al-Bakoush and posted on YouTube shows Stevens being carried out of the room through a window with a raised shutter. "Bring him out, man," someone shouts. "Out of the way, out of the way!"

            "Alive, Alive!" come other shouts, then a cheer of "God is great."

            The next scene shows Stevens lying on a tile floor, with one man touching his neck to check his pulse. Al-Bakoush said that after that scene, they put Stevens in a private car to rush to the hospital.

            The video has been authenticated since Stevens' face is clearly visible and he is wearing the same white t-shirt seen in authenticated photos of him being carried away on another man's shoulders, presumably moments later. The photographer and student who were with al-Bakoush at the scene gave the same account as he did.

            "We were happy to see him alive. The youths tried to rescue him. But there was no security, no ambulances, nothing to help," said Ahmed Shams, the 22-year-old arts student.

            When they entered the consulate, "there was no one around. There was no fire fighters, no ambulances, no relief," said the photographer, Abdel-Qader Fadl.

            The accounts of all three witnesses mesh with that of the doctor who treated Stevens that night.

            Dr. Ziad Abu Zeid told The Associated Press last week that Stevens was nearly lifeless when he was brought by Libyans, with no other Americans around, to the Benghazi hospital where he worked. He said Stevens had severe asphyxia from the smoke and that he tried for 90 minutes to resuscitate him with no success. Only later did security officials confirm it was Stevens.

            Fadl said he drove to the hospital behind the car carrying Stevens.

            During the assault, more than 30 U.S. staffers were evacuated from the consulate. So far, U.S. officials have not announced the results of an investigation into the circumstances of the four Americans' deaths.

            They have said preliminary reports said that amid the evacuation, Stevens and foreign service officer Sean Smith were inside the consulate with a regional security officer. They got separated in the smoke. The security officer and others went back in to try to find the two of them and found Smith dead. They pulled him out but flames and gunfire forced them to flee before they could find Stevens.

            Al-Bakoush and his colleagues said that once they learned his identity, they were stunned Stevens had been alone.

            "I've never seen incompetence and negligence like this, from the two sides, the Americans and the Libyans," he said. "You can sacrifice everyone but rescue the ambassador. He is the ambassador for God's sake."

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 2:27 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            HighTechCowboy posted at 2:12 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            [thumbup]

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 2:21 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            War of words over deadly raid: Libya claims U.S. was warned THREE DAYS in advance of consulate attacks but America says assault was NOT planned

            Libyan military official claims he met with U.S. diplomats to tell them about the deteriorating security situation
            President Mohamed el-Megarif says the attacks were NOT sparked by anti-Islamic video, but by Al Qaeda-connected foreigners

            But UN ambassador Susan Rice insists assault was 'spontaneous'

            Diplomat Chris Stevens died alongside three others on Tuesday night


            Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2204112/Libya-claims-US-warned-THREE-DAYS-advance-consulate-attacks.html#ixzz26lD3GNZ5

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:18 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Rick Spencer posted at 12:51 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012

            I've always had a fondness for the phrase "mouth breather"....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:12 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Thought for the day:

            If Obama does win reelection, just think of the mess he's going to inherit THIS time!

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:02 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            The Wall Street Journal Q&A on QE3, which now makes Bernanke the biggest bundler in U.S. history:

            Q: Why did Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke launch a third round of bond buying known as quantitative easing, or QE3, last week?
            A:Because the stock market told him to. How else can he keep the Dow Jones Industrial Average above 13000? Companies are warning of slower earnings growth.

            Q: How big is QE3?
            A: $40 billion a month—indefinitely. This is on top of the $45 billion a month the Fed is already spending on another program called "Operation Twist" through the rest of this year.

            Q: Phew, is that all?
            A:Hardly. Since 2008, the Fed has dumped more than $2.3 trillion into the economy, artificially levitating the values of stocks and real estate against the ravages of an economic reckoning.

            Q: What will the Fed buy with this QE3 money?
            A: Mortgage-backed securities. It is betting that the way to fix a deflated housing bubble is to blow another one.

            Q: Does the Fed really just print all this money?
            A: No. That would take eons. The Fed simply adds zeros to its magic spreadsheet, and violà, money!

            Q: Isn't this a Ponzi scheme?
            A: Of course not. A Ponzi scheme is illegal. This is a Bernanke scheme.

            Q: Is it working?
            A: Every new QE is an admission that the last one didn't work. Since the first QE in late 2008, America's economic growth has mostly been described as "anemic."

            Q: So why will QE3 last indefinitely?
            A: It spares Mr. Bernanke the humility of announcing QE4, QE5, QE6 ….

            Q: Will this finally lower unemployment?
            A: You tell me. The Fed has launched QEs and held interest rates close to zero for nearly four years. The unemployment rate has remained above 8%.

            Q: So why call it a "recovery"?
            A: It's not as depressing as the term depression. A depression can be defined as a prolonged period of high unemployment.

            Q: Why not just call it that?
            A: Another theory holds that a depression is impossible as long as Mr. Bernanke can keep creating money.

            Q: Won't this cause inflation?
            A: Only if you eat food, burn gasoline, require medical attention, purchase commodities or pay college tuition. Bottled water is $1.29, and air is still free.

            Q: Why haven't QEs worked?
            A: It's a global economy and QEs simply leak out of the bucket. Companies, for instance, may use the cheap money to expand abroad. And consumers may use it to buy more Chinese goods.

            Q: So why do it?
            A: The money flows into banks to strengthen their balance sheets. Corporations use it to lower borrowing costs and launch stock-repurchase programs. The ensuing boost in corporate performance helps executives collect "performance pay."

            Q: Won't the Fed eventually have to sell the trillions in bonds it is buying? How will it be able to find enough buyers?
            A: Don't ask. Nobody knows.

            Q: How do QEs contribute to our national debt?
            A:The Fed's purchases of U.S. Treasurys lower the interest rate our government pays to issue them. This can only encourage more borrowing. Since 2008, our national debt has risen more than 60% to more than $16 trillion.

            Q: Isn't that astronomical?
            A: Yes. But we can now measure the national debt in lightyears. A lightyear equals nearly six trillion miles. At $1 a mile, our national debt is only 2.6 lightyears.

            Q: Why lightyears? A:Because our economic woes are indefinite, and that's why QE3 is indefinite. Mr. Bernanke should change his name to Buzz Lightyear: "To infinity and beyond!"

            —Al Lewis is a columnist for Dow Jones Newswires in Denver. He blogs at tellittoal.com; his email address is al.lewis@dowjones.com.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 1:57 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Rick Spencer posted at 12:51 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 201

            ...........how about "destructively combative paranoid freaks"..........???

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:44 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Today, Sept. 17, 2012, marks the 225th anniversary of the signing of our Constitution at the Philadelphia (Constitution) Convention in 1787. The best way to honor the day might be to read it:

            http://patriotpost.us/documents/82

            It's up to "We the People" to hold our elected representatives accountable for failing to honor their oaths.

            An extensive archive of columns on the Constitution as it relates to various subjects over the years can be found here:

            http://patriotpost.us/archives/alexander/categories#category-2

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 1:00 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Kaiser Foundation Study Reveals ObamaCare Will Be a Disaster:

            Report: Medical device companies won't realize benefits from healthcare reform
            September 14, 2012 by MassDevice staff

            A report from an Orange County, Calif., investment bank pokes holes in rationale that healthcare reform will be a boon to medical device companies.

            What windfall from healthcare reform?

            That's the point of a new report from an Orange County, Calif.-based investment bank, which pokes holes in the rationale that the 2.3% medical device tax is an appropriate quid pro quo for the millions of patients that will come into the healthcare system as a result of the Patient Protection & Affordable Care Act.

            The report from Roth Capital Partners cites the performance of 9 medical device companies in Massachusetts, where the universal healthcare law passed in 2006 serves as a primer for national healthcare reform.

            "Eight out of 9 companies in our analysis did not see any sign of a windfall when universal healthcare was implemented in Massachusetts. Even more striking, most saw relative under-performance in this state," according to the report.

            There is currently no independent analysis of the impact of Massachusetts healthcare reform on the med-tech industry, although several companies have performed internal audits.

            An independent study of the Commonwealth's reform by the Kaiser Family Foundation showed that the law successfully reduced the number of uninsured to 6.3%, a 5% reduction from 2006 and more than ⅔ lower than the national average, which jumped 7% to 18.4% in 2010.

            But the Bay State reforms haven't helped quell costs there, the Kaiser researchers wrote.

            "Per capita health spending is 15% higher than the national average and although premium growth has slowed in recent years, Massachusetts has the highest individual market premiums in the country," they wrote.

            In August, the state sought to tackle those costs with a 2nd law aimed at cutting $200 billion over the next 15 years, pegging the rate of increase to the Massachusetts economy's growth.

            The Roth report was presented at a meeting in Washington, D.C., Thursday hosted by CONNECT, an organization that supports innovation in technology and life sciences in the San Diego area.

            https://www.massdevice.com/news/report-medical-device-companies-wont-realize-benefits-healthcare-reform?page=show

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 12:51 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            HTC: Another thought, rather than moron maybe "air head" is more descriptive than either idiot or moron. Maybe, we should have a contest to find that word most appropriate in the English language? I believe a lot of readers would join in the fun. I will search Dr. Johnson's first English dictionary for advice as there must be a word history relating to these charlatans now called Progressives. RLS

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 12:46 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco: "Get it? I do not support the nanny state. I vote Democrat because I feel Republicans will **take us back to failed economic policies**, more war, and that they will try to suppress people's rights, choices, and privileges."

            ..........uh...........you haven't by any chance been asleep for the last four years, have you.........???

            More war..........???

            Stand by as King Obammer brings Navy warships to Libya in order to get re-elected.

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 12:43 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            I tend to agree that HTC's post are always good. always interesting, and always to the point that he wants to make. He truly understands the danger to our country being foisted upon us from those morons(progressive) let loose in our society.

            The Welfare State that Progressives have fashioned over the past one hundred years is breathless in its final analysis along with the unpleasant and twisted unintended results of their policies. Every citizen is now trapped in a predicament that has turned him into a national liability rather than a national asset through the forced joining of such programs as social security, Medicare, and now the partisan unaffordable Affordable Care Act. Their road forward for the country is a sure road to fiscal disaster and HTC makes no bones about it. He knows a duck when it waddles like a duck! I am always amazed that the progressives see a duck as a golden goose never to run out of eggs. RLS

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:36 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: [Quoting Randy Kamcza] "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature."

            HTC: Mr. Kamcza is as one-dimensional and ignorant as you are. Christianity gave us the "golden rule" (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you), the Good Samaritan, forgiveness, and the principle of charity.

            I guess these are not good things in your world or his.

            While some have died at the hands of those who have falsely proclaimed to be real Christians, many tens of millions more have suffered or died at the hands of socialists and Marxists like those for whom you vote.

            A truly 'civilized' world would not eradicate Christian principles; rather, it would eradicate progressivism.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 12:26 pm on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: I vote Democrat because I feel Republicans will take us back to failed economic policies...

            HTC: The only "failed economic policies" here are the policies of the Democratic Party and its unsustainable entitlement state by which it has been buying votes and power for more than 80 years; but, we know you live in an alternative reality where the details of actual history and real economics aren't important, even when its your own childrens' and grandchildrens' futures hanging in the balance.

            Some of us truly love our kids and others not so much.

            Bronco: Dog-eat-dog is predator-prey any way you cut the cake.

            HTC: Only if a progressive is cutting the cake.

             
          • Bronco posted at 11:44 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            That film was not the reason for violence; it was an excuse. Any religion that begets or condones violence should be abolished. That is what a civilized people would do.

            "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites, to support roguery and error all over the earth."---from Historical Analysis of the American Civil Liberties Union by Randy Kamcza, Bowling Green State University

             
          • kohana posted at 10:52 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            The Freedom to be Silenced

            Posted By Daniel Greenfield On September 17, 2012 @ 12:55 am In Daily Mailer,FrontPage

            In March 1937, the State Department apologized on behalf of the United States to Adolf Hitler for comments made about him by the Mayor of New York City, Fiorello LaGuardia.

            “In this country the right of freedom of speech is guaranteed by the constitution to every citizen and is cherished as a part of the national heritage,” James C. Dunn of the State Department said. “This however does not lessen the regret of the government when utterances either by private citizens or by public officials speaking in an individual capacity give offense to a government with which we have official relations. I very earnestly deprecate the utterances which have thus given offense to the German government. They do not represent the attitude of this government toward the German government.”

            75 years later the great tradition of American diplomats apologizing to mass murderers for the American tradition of freedom of speech remains alive and well.

            The first response from the U.S. Embassy in Cairo was to apologize for “those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.” Secretary of State Hillary Clinton joined in saying, “The United States deplores any intentional effort to denigrate the religious beliefs of others.”

            Following the same script, Obama said, “Since our founding, the United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others.”

            Even in the face of the brutal murders of its own people, the State Department was relentlessly holding to the line that freedom of speech must take a backseat to respect for Islam. As documented in Frank Gaffney’s pamphlet for the Freedom Center, “The Muslim Brotherhood in the Obama Administration,” the Obama Administration collaborated with the Organization of Islamic Cooperation in its attack on freedom of speech by internationalizing Islamic blasphemy laws.

            As discussed in, “The Muslim Brotherhood in the Obama Administration,” Secretary of State Hillary Clinton helped the Organization of Islamic Cooperation assemble a blasphemy resolution that both Islamists and their Western useful idiots could agree on. Resolution 16/18 of the United Nations Human Rights Council, a body whose members consist primarily of repressive dictatorships, was a revised version of the OIC’s usual “Blasphemy against Islam” resolution ushered through with the support of Hillary Clinton and the Obama Administration.

            Resolution 16/18 criminalizes incitement to violence and some have already suggested that any act that is offensive to Muslims and can result in Muslim violence constitutes incitement to violence. Under this definition, Muslim mobs decide what speech is free and their actions will in retrospect lead to legal action against a writer, a cartoonist or a filmmaker for driving them to riot, burn and kill.
            Hillary Clinton’s statements after the attacks reflect the language of Resolution 16/18, affirming an official distaste for blasphemy against Islam as part of America’s tradition of “religious tolerance.” Obama’s statement used similar language, thereby marginalizing freedom of speech by depicting it as a form of religious intolerance.

            The shift to promoting blasphemy laws as a defense against religious intolerance is a form of civil rights judo, pitting one freedom against another. It is the sort of tactic that the left is expert at and it is being used to mainstream Islamic blasphemy laws in this country.

            Blasphemy laws could not pass muster as religious law, but they can pass as laws in defense of religious freedom and they are already becoming accepted as a “common sense” response to Muslim violence. Islamists and their fellow travelers understand quite well that if they stage enough violent incidents, then there will be restrictions on the sort of speech that appears to cause them to behave violently.
            To accuse the culture that is the victim of violence of incitement to violence against the perpetrators of the violence is willfully perverse, but it has nevertheless become commonplace in Europe and is crossing the cold depths of the Atlantic Ocean to the United States.
            Criticizing the official government position, Mitt Romney has said that he thinks, “It’s a terrible course for America to stand in apology for our values.” But freedom of speech is not a value that is valued by the State Department or by the Obama Administration. It is only valued by those who need their speech unrestricted, rather than by a government that looks forward to restricting the freedom of speech of its political enemies.

            The response in Cairo was much plainer. In Tahrir Square a scrawl of graffiti read, “If your freedom of speech has no limits, may you accept our freedom of action.” That threat neatly summarizes the problem. Freedom of speech, like all freedoms, must be actively defended by those who genuinely believe in it. Those who do not believe in freedom of speech will retreat in the face of violence and terror.

            The Obama Administration, which brought in the Muslim Brotherhood and called on Americans to modify their speech according to Islamic sensibilities, whose commitment to soft power is second to none, is now faced with the reality that miming respect for Muslim values will not keep the Muslim mob from its door.

            As Romney has pointed out, this government must choose between defending American values and defending Muslim values. As the last week has shown… it cannot do both.


            Article printed from FrontPage Magazine: http://frontpagemag.com
            URL to article: http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/the-freedom-to-be-silenced/

             
          • Bronco posted at 10:43 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: I have explained to you many times that what you SAY you are is meaningless. Rational people look at who you vote for, what policies you advocate or defend and what principles you display in your actions and words.
            ---------------------------------
            You really need to stop trying to convince yourself that I support a nanny state. I no more vote Democrat to support such than you vote Republican to outlaw gay marriage and imprison pot smokers. You've somehow drawn conclusions about me over one issue on which we overlap.

            Get it? I do not support the nanny state. I vote Democrat because I feel Republicans will take us back to failed economic policies, more war, and that they will try to suppress people's rights, choices, and privileges.

            Now get off my back. "what you SAY you are is meaningless. Rational people look at who you vote for, what policies you advocate or defend and what principles you display in your actions and words." Then you tell us you're a Libertarian but are voting for a different party which does not represent ALL of the policies you advocate and defend, and what principles you display in your actions and words.

            Dog-eat-dog is predator-prey any way you cut the cake.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 9:46 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: HTC, your self-aggrandizing narcissism aside, for the life of me, I can't accept your labeling me a Progressive.

            HTC: I love you too, Bronco. How often does one get to enjoy some sport while having coffee in the morning? Yes, even you obviously have a purpose in life.

            Bronco: I have taken several questionnaires regarding my political status and each and every one of them has put me a smidge to the left of center. Every one of them.

            HTC: Is that supposed to be significant in some way? Most of those "tests" are not at all scientific and merely represent the political spectrum as its nonscientific authors see things. Futhermore, they usually divide the world into "progressives", "moderates" and "conservatives" while the true political landscape is far more diverse and complicated than that.

            That is why they have great difficulty categorizing libertarians like myself, because on many issues we appear 'progressive' (e.g, gay marriage and decriminalizing of drugs) and on other issues we appear to be Tea Party type conservatives (small government, balanced budgets, freedom of religion/conscience and ending the welfare state.)

            I have explained to you many times that what you SAY you are is meaningless. Rational people look at who you vote for, what policies you advocate or defend and what principles you display in your actions and words.

            While you insist that you are not a progressive, you resoundingly declare (as you did at the end of your post) that a system based upon what has always been known as self-reliance and personal responsibility and which produced the greatest economy in the world is "a dog-eat-dog world...that is rather Neanderthal, cruel, and so barbaric."

            That is precisely the world view of the progressive! In addition, you voted for and continue to defend the current socialist in the White House; you advocate for the continuation of the massive nanny state, even when it's been repeatedly pointed out that its unfunded liabilities are about to destroy us; you selectively decide which parts of the First Amendment you're going to agree with and have now argued that there's no evidence that "unalienable rights" even exist.

            Well, buddy, that's 100% in lock step with EVERY progressive who's ever crossed my path. If you don't think that qualifies you to be labeled as such, you must also believe that it's possible to be just a little bit pregnant.

            Bronco: Yes. A dog-eat-dog world is your ideal. But that is rather Neanderthal, cruel, and so barbaric. Sorry you missed out on evolution. You see, in a dog-eat-dog world, there are more victims than predators. That would mean, if everyone were Republican extremists, most of them would be dirt poor, slaves, or dead. That includes your precious grandchildren.

            HTC: The nanny state you so love and admire did not exist anywhere on this planet for most of the history of man; yet, 95% of man's knowledge and science was acquired during that time and standards of living and healthcare continued to improve, century after century.

            The historical record makes clear that what you call a "dog-eat-dog" world didn't devolve into a "Lord of the flies" nightmare but actually steadily advanced the world of man.

            Today, however, under the burden of the nanny state and its accompanying regulatory cancer, western society is now in decline, with fast-rising rates of functional illiteracy, poverty, high unemployment and declining income and standards of living. We look a lot like Rome near its end and we even have our own barbarians (Islamists) storming our gates.

            And you call that "evolution"? I wish we had missed out on it!

            The world you advocate for is the dark world, not mine nor that of our Founders. Studies have shown that red states have done much better overall than blue states during the past four years, in job creation, growth in income and property values:

            http://news.investors.com/050812-610481-red-states-beat-blue-on-job-wage-gains.aspx?p=full&reason=0

            Not bad for "dog-eat-dog" policies!

            While Democrats like to throw around the notion that the 10 poorest states are red states, they intentionally overlook the history of those states which were Democratically controlled for two centuries before recently realizing the error of their ways and voting for prosperity by going red:

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhendrickson/2012/06/07/are-the-10-poorest-u-s-states-really-republican/

            Other studies have shown that progressive Democrats are really good at destroying our largest cities where a large percentage of our population resides:

            http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhendrickson/2012/05/31/president-obamas-wealth-destroying-goal-taking-the-curley-effect-nationwide/

            I don't expect these facts to persuade you anymore than past facts have done; but, at least I love my children and grandchildren and am working to leave them a better world, rather than an impossible burden to bear because of my "feel good" stupidity.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 8:24 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            mooseberryinn: The stupid shall reap what they sow.

            HTC: Unfortunately, in our political and economic system, the diligent and alert as well as our innocent children and grandchildren will suffer much as well when the burden of the nanny state finally crushes us..

            This is the nature of socialism: It never really lifts anyone up, but merely tears everything down. Intelligent people of sound reason don't need real-world examples to understand that; but, for the Broncos of the world, there are numerous such failed examples for those who need to see things with their eyes since they can't picture them in their mind.

            Even then, they will deny the obvious, which is why I believe that those who embrace progressivism truly are mental defectives.


             
          • mooseberryinn posted at 5:40 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            mooseberryinn Posts: 2534

            Well it's "official", survey says Obama supporters tend to be uninformed, paying little attention to Obama's actions and words, drawing their conclusions from (known) biased mass media. So there you have it. No matter if true, no matter if important issues are ignored, no matter if not true, the knuckle draggers, the people of low IQ, the lazy with no initiative to actually learn for themselves are the folks who think Comrade Obama is great. The stupid shall reap what they sow.

             
          • Bronco posted at 1:28 am on Mon, Sep 17, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC, your self-aggrandizing narcissism aside, for the life of me, I can't accept your labeling me a Progressive. I have taken several questionnaires regarding my political status and each and every one of them has put me a smidge to the left of center. Every one of them. You are probably unaware, being so far Right, that not everyone to the left of you is a liberal/progressive/socialist/lefty. You believe that the position one takes on any one issue decides one's political status. That is very narrow-minded but something expected from a far Right-wing extremist mindset.
            So, all of these as-of-yet undecided voters, if they vote Democrat, they automatically fall into that same liberal/progressive/socialist/lefty label you extremists are so fond of applying. That means everyone who votes Republican is a far Right extremist. Congratulations! Not only has the GOP redefined rape, you have also managed to redefine Americans, and redefined the GOP as an extremist political party...and we all know what they are capable of.
            ----------------------------
            HTC: The American psyche, culture and history has always been one of rugged individualism, what you progressives would call "dog eat dog"; that is, it has been until you and your ilk set about to destroy and pervert it in pursuit of your sick and twisted concept of "social justice."
            ------------------------------
            Yes. A dog-eat-dog world is your ideal. But that is rather Neanderthal, cruel, and so barbaric. Sorry you missed out on evolution. You see, in a dog-eat-dog world, there are more victims than predators. That would mean, if everyone were Republican extremists, most of them would be dirt poor, slaves, or dead. That includes your precious grandchildren.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:46 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Kahn: They are working in concert towards the destruction of our country so they can build their fascist paradise.

            HTC: Your are quite correct.

            When people of reason and reasonable familiarity with the Constitution, economics and free markets look at our current economic woes and then analyze Obama's economics and fiscal policies, they quickly realize that everything he's done is exactly wrong and will only make things worse.

            Assuming that he really does want to right our economic ship, they conclude that he's a well-intentioned moron who's totally unqualified to hold his present office.

            Their mistake is their assumption that he truly believes in capitalism and free markets and that he wants to restore the private sector to vibrant health. Nothing could be further from the truth because a healthy economy is a liberating economy which makes people want freedom FROM government rather than dependency upon it (e.g., look at the freedom movements within China as a result of their economic growth.)

            This is the antithesis of what socialists/Marxists need because they know that people will willingly surrender their freedoms ONLY when they're desperate and feel that they can no longer provide for themselves. Desperation and economic destruction have become the goal of the Democratic Party, ever since the socialists/Marxists like Obama took control.

            Obama knows, like every good Marxist, that you have to destroy the current economic system and create rampant despair within the population in order to bring about the "transforming of America" that he's so often talked about.

            When one views Obama's policies through this lens, one quickly realizes that he's "crazy like a fox" and his policies have been 100% succesful in moving us towards the economic cliff that he and his kind are hoping we'll finally fall off of.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:36 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Pequot posted at 8:32 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012

            Thanks for your kind supportive words....

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:34 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: But then, reality is mostly subjective.

            HTC: Only in the 'mind' of the emotionally-driven progressive.

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 10:27 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            HighTechCowboy Posts: 9707

            Bronco: Now you claim the right to redefine 'American'? That's already been established and widely accepted. Your definition is wrong. Perhaps you 'have a definition problem.'

            HTC: As a progressive, you no doubt would deny that there is such a thing as American culture, but it does exist and is indeed exceptional in character. Being an "American" is more a state of mind and an attitude than it is something to be found on your birth certificate.

            The American psyche, culture and history has always been one of rugged individualism, what you progressives would call "dog eat dog"; that is, it has been until you and your ilk set about to destroy and pervert it in pursuit of your sick and twisted concept of "social justice."

            It has always acknowledged the supremacy of the individual and of state rights trumping federal authority; in other words, it has long been a culture which has lived the freedoms FROM federal government which the U.S. Constitution sought to enshrine in an eternal and binding contract between the people and that federal government.

            But you and your fellow progressives long ago began subverting that document and suppressing the freedoms of the individual and states which it sought to protect and defend. That contract was written in clear language understandable by the common man so that he could enforce it and not be dependent upon its interpretation by the very government it sought to contain.

            Its primary author made even clearer its meaning in the Federalist Papers, which our government-run public schools long ago quit covering so as to raise generaton after generation of compliant citizens who are nearly totally ignorant of their rights and freedoms as the Founders saw them.

            It is quite clear to anyone familiar with those documents that our massive nanny state exists entirely outside of the Constitutional boundaries set for our federal government. Progressive justices have largely interpreted that Constitution out of existence but that doesn't make their interpretations correct.

            Those who support these violations of our rights are indeed unAmerican and are not our brothers, for they have chosen to make themselves the enemy of freedom and, therefore, every freedom-loving American.

            You are part of the problem because you support these violations and then, like your fellow progressive morons (thanks, RLS!), celebrate your own enslavement to the service of the state.

            There is not much I can think of which is sadder than the man who willingly puts himself into chains.

            Bronco: You meant 'inalienable' rights which are theoretical. Our government gave itself the authority to protect those rights. But do they exist?

            HTC: No, I meant "unalienable", exactly as I stated because that's the word used in the Declaration of Independence. You might want to reacquaint yourself with that document while you're refamiliarizing yourself with the U.S. Constitution.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 10:08 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            jennydoe posted at 8:01 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012

            http://tinyurl.com/98p68a3

             
          • Pequot posted at 8:32 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            Pequot Posts: 525

            HTC: Don't let the dimwitted get you down. Your posts are always sensible and very interesting.

             
          • jennydoe posted at 8:01 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            jennydoe Posts: 2193

            Rick Spencer - I never knew this url was so long, but maybe it can help make your point from a tea partyier perspective......

            http://www.google.com/imgres?q=get+a+brain+moran&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rls=GWYF,GWYF:2011-51,GWYF:en&biw=1104&bih=555&tbm=isch&tbnid=V3MJSAieuO3vSM:&imgrefurl=http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/get-a-brain-morans&docid=kbGgDYjzQVL5HM&imgurl=http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/296/morans.jpg&w=480&h=468&ei=eYNWUIarGq_liwKenICYAw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=110&sig=103313897832162795341&page=1&tbnh=108&tbnw=115&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:75&tx=75&ty=61

             
          • Rick Spencer posted at 7:49 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            Rick Spencer Posts: 405

            HTC: Since you have now agreed to not use Idiot as a descriptive term for those deserving it, I would suggest you use Moron as an adequate substitution. what do you think? RLS

             
          • Khan posted at 7:36 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            Khan Posts: 2

            Progressive fascism is a religion that infects present Obama, the Democratic party and the rest of the left. They are working in concert towards the destruction of our country so they can build their fascist paradise. Where the state controls every facet of our lives and allows them to inflict their will on society.

             
          • SorrySOB posted at 7:35 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            SorrySOB Posts: 484

            Interesting how HTC gets all up in arms and writes a long boring book about how wrong an article is - unless it is Fox or Frank, then its rear kissing, put on the blinders time.

             
          • Khan posted at 7:33 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            Khan Posts: 2

            The constitution restricts the power of government in order to protect the rights of the citizens of the USA. It doesn't guarantee that the government provide a freebies that the socialists want to use in order to buy their votes. The citizens don't need to be taken care of if the government isn't trying to turn them into slaves with huge taxes or trap them in poverty with welfare. We need to cut pack the progressive disasters in order to survive the last 3.5 years of Obamunism.

             
          • Bronco posted at 4:23 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: What afflicts the left is more appropriately a kind of insanity, an inability to perceive, grasp and/or process large and critical chunks of reality.
            -------------------------
            Kinda like Fox News. Or the Romney/Ryan ticket. Christianity and Islam, too. But then, reality is mostly subjective.

             
          • Bronco posted at 4:20 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            Bronco Posts: 4328

            HTC: Anyone who advocates for the trampling of the Constitution and the unalienable rights of U.S. citizens, ISN'T an American.
            You (Bronco) have a definition problem (amongst numerous other problems.)
            ---------------------------------
            Now you claim the right to redefine 'American'? That's already been established and widely accepted. Your definition is wrong. Perhaps you 'have a definition problem.'

            You meant 'inalienable' rights which are theoretical. Our government gave itself the authority to protect those rights. But do they exist?
            Life? Would that include the right to health care so that one can maintain life? Or does that right end at what one can afford?
            Pursuit of Happiness? Unless you want to marry someone of the same sex, smoke some weed, or not be forced to carry a few cells to term.
            Liberty? TSA, Homeland Security, wiretapping.
            Establishment of religion? "In God We Trust" on every US dollar. Naive children indoctrinated into faiths.

            Regarding these natural rights, would you be of the John Locke crowd or the Hobbes?

             
          • kohana posted at 3:43 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            kohana Posts: 2109

            About time for the IDF to rescue the Americans and wipe the hoards out of the Sinai again. They did it once, they can do it again, soon as Obama gets off his thumb, or Bibi gets off his.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 3:17 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            MORE trouble brewing........

            Al Qaeda-led Salafis hit three Egyptian Sinai bases, down Egyptian chopper
            DEBKAfile Special Report September 16, 2012, 6:04 PM (GMT+02:00)

            Al Qaeda-led Bedouin fighters in Sinai

            Salafi Bedouin and al Qaeda bands Sunday, Sept 16, expanded their Sinai offensive to three Egyptian bases along a 70-kilometer front three days after they raided the US-led Multinational Force base south of El Arish in northern Sinai and hoisted the black Islamist flag. debkafile’s military sources report that at dawn, a small group managed to creep up to the northern Sinai Egyptian command center in al Arish and plant a large bomb against its walls. Because of the total Egyptian blackout on the episode, there is no information on casualties or damage.

            The explosion was followed by a horde of heavily armed gunmen firing rocket grenades and heavy machine guns swooping on the center and seizing the rooftops of surrounding buildings to pin down the Egyptian commanders inside the compound. By the end of the day, the Salafi-al Qaeda gangs were in control of El Arish, the key town of northern Sinai.

            At a distance of 40 kilometers, a fierce battle erupted at another site, Sheikh Zuwaid, 3 kilometers from the MFO’s northern base which was attacked Friday. The raiders captured the local school and took dozens of children hostage. Using them as human shields, the terrorists advanced on the local police station shooting anti-tank rockets, rocket grenades, automatic weapons and fire bombs.

            To repel this attack, the Egyptian army deployed combat helicopters which struck the invaders with missiles and heavy machine guns. One chopper was reported shot down. Due to the Egyptian news blackout, there is no word on the fate of the children, the helicopter crew or whether it was downed by an anti-air rocket or machine gun fire,

            The Salafi-al Qaeda terrorists next turned to the Egyptian special forces base at Rafah abutting the Gaza Strip and just across the Israeli border. This is the same base which Salafi Bedouin and al Qaeda gunmen attacked on Aug. 5 killing 16 Egyptian troops and crashing through the frontier barrier into Israel.

            debkafile’s military sources report that the broad al Qaeda-led offensive Sunday marks a major and dangerous escalation in the Islamist terrorist coalition’s war plans for Sinai. It carried four messages:

            1. It is a military force to be reckoned: The jihadi terrorists first displayed their military prowess on Aug. 5, when they took on two armies at once. Sunday, they attacked three military targets along a 70-kilometer front, a feat which even the Afghan Taliban has not mastered.

            2. This feat puts the Sinai Army of Islam at the forefront of the violent Islamist protest against the United States sweeping across the Middle East and Asia over a film mocking the Prophet Muhammad. Because it is beyond the horizon of international attention and the Western media, Washington, Cairo and Jerusalem have been able to keep its true impact under wraps.

            3. More than 1,000 MFO peacemakers including hundreds of American officers have been under Salafi-Al Qaeda-Bedouin siege for three days since their Al Ghora base was raided Friday. They have a fleet of helicopters and small reconnaissance aircraft with American crews, but they don’t dare take off because it is feared that al Qaeda gunmen will shoot them down with FIM-92 Stinger anti-air missiles smuggled into Sinai from Libya.

            4. The IDF high command is tensed now for the jihadis to again turn their guns and rockets on Israel.

             
          • JBSTONE posted at 3:10 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.

            JBSTONE Posts: 4558

            Bronco posted at 12:49 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012

            Speak for yourself, Chump.........[sneaky]

             
          • HighTechCowboy posted at 2:19 pm on Sun, Sep 16, 2012.